A myth about water and molten lead [Archive]

jonk

05-09-2010, 10:28 PM

On the 'why not quench' topic, someone said that having a quenching bucket near your casting pot is a bad idea as water splashes and if it gets in the pot, will lead to a visit from the tinsel fairy.

Now, before this board existed and I was young and impatient, and notably when I was still casting over a coleman stove, when done I would pour a few cups of water ON TOP OF THE MOLTEN LEAD to quickly cool it so I wouldn't have to worry about the cat (outdoor/indoor type) burning itself. I did this hundreds of times. And while the water flashed to steam and you had to watch you didn't get burned, if you poured it in gently,there was no issue.

You get a visit from the tinsel fairy if water gets UNDER the surface of the molten lead- which would happen for instance if you took a wet reject bullet out of your quench bucket and dropped it in the molten lead.

Now, having moved on to electric melters and not wanting to damage them, plus being a bit more cautious and leery in my (somewhat) older age, I no longer pour water on molten lead. Nor am I saying to go out and try it.

However, I don't worry in the least about splashes from the quench bucket. Just passing this along for those who didn't know it.

deerslayer

05-09-2010, 10:36 PM

You are absolutely right!! The tinsel fairy should only visit when the water is under the surface and flashes to steam and almost instantly grows 1500 times in volume. Although I would not chance pouring water on the pot but I have had a drop or to splash in it and no visitations.

sagacious

05-09-2010, 11:10 PM

DLCTEX

05-09-2010, 11:12 PM

I also have had drops sizzle on the surface. However, after having witnessed one tinsel fairy episode in a wire plant I worked in in the past I will avoid moisture in molten lead to the best of my ability.

casterofboolits

05-09-2010, 11:53 PM

A drop of sweat at the wrong time can be quite an experience! A drop rolled off the end of my nose into the muffin pan cavity just as I started to pour the lead. Quite a POP and bits of tinsel all over the place. Only a couple of small burns. Thank Gawd for safety glasses!

After that a sweat band was added to my safety equipment!

Bret4207

05-10-2010, 07:45 AM

Rocky Raab

05-10-2010, 10:10 AM

With all due respect, Bret, I've never been hit while crossing a street. But that DOES happen. About the best we can say about the tinsel fairy is that it hasn't happened to us YET.

sundog

05-10-2010, 10:33 AM

Try adding cold ingots to already working pot..., don't ask.

prs

05-10-2010, 01:09 PM

Norseman

05-10-2010, 01:20 PM

When melting down range scrap, I tried to empty a bucket of wet rangescrap into about an inch of molten lead - will not do that again. I tried first with one boolit that melted, a fistfull that hissed and at last with 10 pounds of which some jumped out of the pot.

I was smart (?) enough to keep the bucket between me and the pot, so it took the brunt of the molten lead and thankfully I was not hit.

But that was hopefully the first and last visit from the fairy.

felix

05-10-2010, 01:45 PM

Slim, .... Sundog's stuff is always outside. Condensation abounds. ... felix

303Guy

05-10-2010, 02:25 PM

The problem with water quenching is that should one have a lapse of concentration, a poor casting with a cavity that have sucked in water could get dropped back into the pot! All accidents are a result of a chain of events. That water filled cavity could sit there for days! That's why we have safety practices. My returns go on top of a layer of kitty litter where they melt through but sometimes I drop them so they penetrate into the melt. I should stop doing that! :idea: But I don't water drop. If I started to water drop there would be a potential for a visit! Mmmm....

DLCTEX

05-10-2010, 08:02 PM

PRS: A cold ingot of tin into a vat of molten tin is exactly what caused the tremendous explosion of molten metal at the plant I referred to. The guy said he had done it a thousand times and nothing happened, but that time something caused moisture to form on the cold ingot. The ceiling was 20 ft. up and was coated along with everything within 25 ft. of the vat. Thankfully I was on a forklift about 45 ft. away and had a front row seat. The required safety equipment saved him from the worst of it, but he missed a week with burns in unprotected areas.

hydraulic

05-10-2010, 08:44 PM

I have the same thing as Sundog. My ingots are stored outdoors on the wall of the walk-in. No matter how I try to dry them, they sizzle and splutter when added to the pot. I have a sheet metal end-cap that I set over the pot that keeps the lead in the pot. I cast on the end of the wall that is just the right highth for me. We have a lot of wild turkeys in Nebraska.

FAsmus

05-11-2010, 12:03 AM

Felix;

I cast inside but in an unheated shed.

My story is about casting at temperatures well below freezing and adding cold material to a hot pot as heated over my Turkey-cooker heat source.

The material will almost instantaneously collect condensation moisture as I pass it through the hot gasses as they rise normally around the hot pot ~ Then, if I just drop it in this (pretty much microscopic coating of water) goes under the surface of the alloy and cooks off something terrible.

No explosions mind you but plenty of scary harsh popping action! Now, I either heat the additional material to something that evaporates the moisture or move it through the "hot" zone as quickly as possible .. the bigger the addition, the more trouble results from improper technique.

Good evening,
Forrest

troy_mclure

05-11-2010, 03:09 AM

ive had cold(40f ish) lead cause a big splatters that hit an 8' roof.
the lead was dry, and i was casting outside. i dropped a 10lb ingot in the pot and it startred hissing and bubbling worse and worse til it it was basicaly spraying everywhere. about 4lbs of lead came out of the pot.

sagacious

05-11-2010, 05:23 AM

Basic safety practice-- unless you're adding ingots to a cold pot, always preheat them to prevent any possibility of a steam explosion.

I store my ingots inside, but I always pre-heat before adding them to the melt. You can place your ingots near the flame/burner/hotplate/etc to warm up for a while before adding them to the pot during the casting session. Could save your hide, literally.

Just like DLCTEX related, folks do things a thousand times and swear that means it's safe... until the 1001st time catches up with them. Stay safe, everyone.

Bret4207

05-11-2010, 07:07 AM

With all due respect, Bret, I've never been hit while crossing a street. But that DOES happen. About the best we can say about the tinsel fairy is that it hasn't happened to us YET.

And with equal respect Rocky, the liquid has to get under the surface for a "steam explosion" to happen. That's just the laws of nature and common sense. Now the guy that pushes a cold ingot under the surface- yeah, or the guy that dumps a shovel load of scrap in a pot smelting without checking for the 22 rounds that are in there- yeah. Condensation forms and can cause problems, been there, done that, I'm still picking lead off the walls. The old advice of warming your ingots is good advice.

I'm saying lets not confuse freak accidents and carelessness with "a drop of water hitting the surface causing a steam explosion". Doesn't happen, can't happen. makes no sense. Anytime someone has an explosion there has to be either water getting under the surface or something else happening we're not aware off. Can't change the laws of physics.

MT Gianni

05-11-2010, 09:51 AM

The old plumbers adage is " Lead into water, never water into lead". It has served the industry well for the last 120 years.

Doby45

05-11-2010, 10:48 AM

And with equal respect Rocky, the liquid has to get under the surface for a "steam explosion" to happen. That's just the laws of nature and common sense. Now the guy that pushes a cold ingot under the surface- yeah, or the guy that dumps a shovel load of scrap in a pot smelting without checking for the 22 rounds that are in there- yeah. Condensation forms and can cause problems, been there, done that, I'm still picking lead off the walls. The old advice of warming your ingots is good advice.

I'm saying lets not confuse freak accidents and carelessness with "a drop of water hitting the surface causing a steam explosion". Doesn't happen, can't happen. makes no sense. Anytime someone has an explosion there has to be either water getting under the surface or something else happening we're not aware off. Can't change the laws of physics.

Thank God someone is speaking common sense. Is it wise to drop shovels full of known wet scrap into a molten bucket, not just no, but hell no. I do find it absolutely humorous though when people are telling their stories of this one kamikaze June bug that landed in their pot and it immediately caused a nuclear explosion. I assure you if a June bug lands in your pot you will see his butt dancing around on the hot dance floor. Would I stir him on into my mix, maybe after he has cooked a while, but not immediately..[smilie=w:

I would say common sense ain't so common any more.

Rocky Raab

05-11-2010, 10:54 AM

No disagreement here with the physics of it; the water does have to get below the surface.

I'm only saying that if you have water in the vicinity of your casting pot, you are living in the land of "Yet." Because sooner or later, somehow, someway ...

THAT's common sense.

Bret4207

05-11-2010, 02:25 PM

Okay, we're on the same page. Caution with burny things is always a good policy.

Crash_Corrigan

05-11-2010, 07:06 PM

I gotta go with Bret on thise mostly.

However one day I was smelting in the backyard and I had just finished fluxing the alloy and it had a smooth mirror finish on it and I was about to grab the ladle to start casting some ingots when a flock of Pidgeons flew over at about 100 feet of altitude.

There was one bird though that had trained with the 8th Air Force and let go with a large portion of what birds tend to drop everywhere. The aim was uncanny......and I had a front row seat to an explosion. I had looked up to the birds flying overhead and I remembered Glen Fixell's warning about smelting out in the open when things tend to fall from the sky........I rapidly backed away from the Dutch Oven on the top of the Turkey Fryer and and watched as a large clump of bird dump found it's way directly onto the surface of my beloved new and difficult to obtain alloy.

It was a bulls eye. WHUMP! Was the sound and rapidly a wall of molten alloy spread out in a circular pattern and about 4 feet higher than the smelting pot.

I was still moving away and about 15' away when the Tinsel Fairy and all her girlfriends had a party.

I got some on my feet and leather apron below my waist and there was a circle of alloy completely around the area. The alloy rapidly cooled on the grass lawn and I spent the next couple of hours gently peeling the alloy sheets offa the ground and grass.

The bad part was that a lot of grass and dirt got encapsulated in the alloy and it all needed to remelted from a cold pot so the tinsel fairy would not come back.

I did find a fast way to remelt this alloy. I got some hardware cloth with large 1/4" openings and placed it over the smelt pot and placed chunks of alloy with the encapsulated grass and dirt on top of it. Then I applied a propane weed burner flame until the alloy melted and dripped into the dutch oven whilst the grass and dirt was cooked out of all it's moisture and water.

I still had some snap crackle and pop going on but it worked out OK.

Gotta watch out for the birds with nasty bathroom habits cuz if it is a big enuf hunk of moisture laden material it can drop and penetrate the surface of a molton alloy mix and hurt you.

zardoz

05-11-2010, 11:20 PM

On a related note.

Over twenty years ago, I was working in an aluminum die casting plant in Dallas, TX. We had the old style reverb type melting furnace there, that held a few tons of molten aluminum (think 1300 degrees F).

Well, one year, we had a freak snowstorm of a few inches that paralyzed the city it seems. No one in the plant had any experience with snow or ice on the ingots there in Dallas. Well, someone got some of the 30 lb. ingots from outside, and a few had snow on them, and into the 1300 degree reverb melt.

Some of the vets said we were hit by a 100mm shell, or something close. The whole building shook with the shock wave.

Thank God nobody was hurt, as the forklift operator off to the side of the charge well was protected by thick Lexan screen. It was splattered with a solid sheet of aluminum, and melted the plastic after the impact.

A concrete cinder block wall, maybe 15 feet directly in front of the furnace charge well, looked like it had been hit with with 50 cal. fire from a Ma Deuce or something.

Tinsel fairy on steroids. Since then, extreme respect for the power of steam.

Lavid2002

05-13-2010, 03:18 PM

wow.... Thanks for the good tips. I had no idea I needed to watch out for cold lead. Common sense with the condensation. :P

Paladin 56

08-07-2010, 06:54 PM

Ditto on a drop of water hitting the surface not being a problem.

On adding cold ingots stored outside, I learned long ago to preheat them. The urge to run is worse than trying to cure a flinch after seeing the Devils brew bubble, spit and hiss.

One thing here no one has mentioned that I can recall on water dropping.

I always water drop and almost always have, but one time before I learned to float a sponge in the water, after getting a good rhythm going I must have closed the mold on a dancing droplet splashed up from the boolit hitting the water. Upon filling the cavity with lead all hell broke loose. The surprise factor is notable as well as exhilarating to say the least.

Suffice it to say, you can't hold the mold closed and you will be lucky if you don't drop it. I didn't drop the mold but I'm surprised the sprue plate wasn't sprung. Even baby tinsel fairies are extraordinarily strong.

From then on the mold is ALWAYS visually checked or turned upside down before the sprue plate is closed.

mroliver77

08-10-2010, 12:22 PM

Even ingots stored in my barn condense water on/in them under the right conditions. Sometimes everything in the barn is cold and a warmer moist day will see everything covered with "dew". I always preheat anything going into a hot pot. Fellow once told me that Northern Ohio has jungles as bad as Viet Nam with the heat and humidity of our summers.
Jay

Walter Laich

08-11-2010, 01:21 PM

not to highjack this thread but sometimes when I slide a new ingot into the molton lead a get a boiling action for a few seconds. Doesn't explore (been there) but it will cause the lead to bubble out of the pot it it's close to the top.

I'm thinking some kind of foreign matter (my shooting buddy takes the WW down to ingots and I cast the bullets). He doesn't know what it could be

walt

nighthunter

08-11-2010, 10:47 PM

If anyone on this board, member or nonmember, thinks they could possibly have control of the water or water based product once it contacts molten lead they are very very foolish. Go ahead and discuss physics and chemistry and whatever else you care to add to the conversation. Molten lead and water do not MIX. The tinsel fairy is a pretty term but is quite ugly when you receive the visit. I have seen the results of the tinsel visit on a few occassions and I am very glad that I was never seriously hurt. I try to observe safe practices when melting lead and adding water or a water moistened substance to my pot is not considered a safe practice by me. Some of the posts on this thread are a joke as they could possibly make a beginner feel that water around molten lead is an acceptable practice. If anyone cares to flame me I will respond to you by private message. It won't be nice either.

Nighthunter

Charlie Two Tracks

08-12-2010, 09:51 PM

Walt, that boiling is probably water. Be careful. I fluxed with some sawdust that was out in my garage. It must have picked up some moisture. I put a layer on top of the mix and nothing happened. As soon as I started to press it down, The lead started to rumble. I stopped and waited a minute. Everything was fine then.

Jbar4Ranch

08-15-2010, 03:01 PM

I spent 23 years working at an ASARCO lead smelter in East Helena, and the normal procedure for cooling a 120 ton kettle of finish lead was to place a 3/4" water hose over the edge of the kettle and turn slowly turn it on as a gigantic electric mixer turned the cooled pieces into the hot bath to cool it. Sometimes, if it was too hot, it would pop and spit for awhile, but when it quit, you turned the water on full and let it turn in for a half hour or so until the mix took on a grainy appearance like a silver milkshake. At that point, a big natural gas burner under the kettle was lit and a few hundred pounds of sulfur was dumped in. After 90 minutes or so, a fine black copper dross was skimmed off and the lead was pumped into ten 10 ton ingots. In order to cool the ingots quickly so they could be loaded into rail cars the same shift, a water hose was placed on the edge of the mould, and slowly turned on. In a few minutes, water covered the entire surface of the ingot, and the hose was turned on full. In an hour, or even less in some circumstances, the 10 ingots were loaded via overhead crane into rail cars. We would typically process 200 tons of lead in a 24 hour period, from raw ore going into the top of a blast furnace to finished product heading to our Omaha plant for further refinement into gold, silver, and lead.

Cadillo

08-15-2010, 11:07 PM

sundog?

What happens? I do that all the time. That is how I top-up my pots. Even in the winter when the ingots are really cold. All mine do is just sort of sink in and melt. I do make sure they are dry, fer sher! I use some old lubed boolits for fluxing and they sometimes sizzle a bit with moisture, but no Tinsel Ferry has come to visit me yet.

prs

Cold metal objects are often moist due to condensation of moisture in the air. If they are introduced into the melt such that the moisture gets beneath the surface of the melt prior to evaporation, you've got trouble.

For years I worked in an aluminum reduction plant working with a lot of molten material. During the winter months we had to be very cautious and warm our iron tools on the surface before disturbing any molten material or very very bad things happened.

When the molten stuff hits the fan, you want to be wearing Denim or some other heavy cotton clothing. Synthetics will really make a bad scenario worse when hit by molten material.

Reddog177

08-17-2010, 02:08 PM

A neighbor did me a favor, one time back in the mid '60s, by picking up bullets at our local range backstop and bringing them to me to recast. Rather than check them, I poured them directly into the pot from the shot bag they were in. Nevermore! A .45 acp round emptied the 20 pound pot, instantly! Luckily, the bag caught most of the blast and I had on safety glasses. Only injury was my wedding band. I almost skinned my finger trying to get it off! The guy sitting behind me had his coat on and was gone before I could turn around. He never came back.
Dick

alamogunr

08-20-2010, 12:11 AM

Three or four years ago I bought a ton of range scrap from a semi-commercial caster. I say semi because he cleaned up the sheriff's department range and cast for their practice ammo. This stuff had been sitting around for a couple of years and was very oxidized. Before I cleaned it up, I covered all the buckets with an old tarp. As luck would have it, it rained a couple of inches overnight. A couple of the buckets got a lot of water in them. I set those aside and was going to clean them last. Even after being spread on a sheet of plywood in the sun all day they were still wet. I got impatient and slowly slipped a shovel full on top of the melt and let it set. No explosion or anything except steam and that was not violent. I finished off both buckets that way. The only explanation I could come up with was that all that lead was so oxidized that it stayed on top of the melt and dried out. That and I must have been living right. I decided I had used up all my good luck and have never let water close to a melt since.

I've never been tempted to buy range scrap since then either.

John
W.TN

Springfield

08-27-2010, 12:16 PM

I set my ingots on the edge of the pot before I shove them in. I also store my ingots in the shop so they don't get wet. A few years ago I broght in a new batch of ingots that had been stored outside and had been rained on. I had to be very carfule with these as a few of them bubbled as they went in, not haveing spent enogh tme on the pot before going in. But this was surface moisture, so it wasn't too bad. The worst thing I have ever had to do was to smelt used lead pipe. Very difficult to get out all the moisture before smelting. The pot bubbling was bad enogh, but one time I shoved in a pipe a little too fast, and the moisture caused the pipe to act as a cannon, blowing pipe residue out the end, shooting who knows what right past my ear! I learned to never aim the top end of the pipe at myself. I have also managed to get live primers in my melt. I now never just sweep up lead scraps from the floor and pour them in a hot pot, always sift through it first. Fortunately they just fire off while on the surface, but it will cause you to pucker a bit. ALWAYS wear safety glasses and gloves. I can live with burns on my arms, but I truly cherish my vision.

Doby45

08-27-2010, 02:33 PM

Same thing happened to me Springfield, but it was residual powder on the lube of boolits I had pulled. I tossed a few in without thinkin and next thing I know I got the little "Snap, Crackle, Pop" guys doing a dance on top of my pot.

dragonrider

08-27-2010, 04:22 PM

One time my common sense deserted me also. Like Springfield I stuck a piece of lead pipe inot a hot pot. It's always too late when you realize your plan is really, really stupid. I near shat myself when the resulting eruption blasted out the open end of the pipe. Since then, about 25 years, I never add to a hot pot without preheating.

circle141

08-29-2010, 09:43 PM

I was in the scuba diving equipment business for 25 years, one of the products we made was lead diving weights(500,000 Lbs. per year).

I did most of the casting because I had more experience then any one else.

One time I was casting from my small lead pot(300 lbs), I had used all the lead in the pot and was filling it scrap that was in the building for two days.

I relit the furance, I heard a loud hissing coming from the furance. I went out side of the building not 20 seconds before there was a loud thump that kicked all of the lead out of the pot all over the building. I was glad I got out side of the building before the blow out. It is allmost impossible to know when there is water in scrap lead. The only way to be sure that this can not happen is to only load when the pot is cold.

Mike Circle
Circle Lead Products Inc.
circle141@msn.com

BAGTIC

09-01-2010, 12:54 AM

I have had it happen. As I leaned forward sweat dripped into the pot and there was a stem explosion that splatterted lead across the from of my shirt of nylon tricot fabric that never wore out after years and years though I did eventually need to resew some of the seams where the stitching rotted away. I wore that shirt for YEARS when casting just to remind me to never lean over the pot.

NEVER SAY NEVER

Doby45

09-01-2010, 08:11 AM

Your telling me that a bead of human sweat broke the surface tension of a pot of molten lead? This sounds like a job for myth busters, cause I can't believe that.

uncle joe

09-01-2010, 08:19 AM

I always add my ingots with a pair of pliers and add it slowly, slow enough it melts off the bottom of the ingot before i get it down in the melt, this way i know the ingot is hot enough that there will be no water following it under the surface. I also use a plastic shoe box from wal mart for quenching, I drilled a hole in the top and glued a plastic funnel in the hole, so I can drop the boolits and not worry about it splashing up into the empty mold.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=21&pictureid=472

Jech

09-06-2010, 08:30 PM

I do the same when adding new ingots to the production pot or smelting pot...always wear the longest welding gloves I can find as well as eye protection and a baseball cap with the bill forward to make sure tinsel doesn't sneak behind the lenses when raining from above. While standing at max arm's length, pliers are used to slowly slide the ingot into the melt.

I love your contained quenching box there uncle joe, I just might have to set something up like that for myself!

Willbird

09-14-2010, 12:08 PM

There are people that SWEAR it happens. I believe they believe it, but I also believe they are wrong. Whatever causes the issue, the water/bug/raindrop/snowflake has to get under the surface. It's simple confusion of the facts. No harm intended, but it perpetuates the myth.

I have in my younger maybe dumber days did as other have said and poured water into molten lead, with a welding mask and a decent outfit the first time. I was fairly confident that things were not as others have said they are............IE things were exaggerated.

BUT one time when smelting it started to rain, and those raindrops hitting the melt did not cause the tinsel fairy, but there were enough violent pops and thumps in there that I got a board over the top of that pot pronto.

Bill

bob208

09-19-2010, 09:09 AM

well bret i know it happens have scars to prove it. now i think the warnings are a bit overboard. but then if you do keep bending safty rules sone you will bend them too far.

Clark

10-03-2010, 10:49 PM

I was casting bullets when I was 14 in 1965 by drilling holes in a fire brick with my father's 3/8" electric drill.

I told myself these were 38 caliber.

I heated coffee cans with lead in the bottom over a little cast iron Hibatchi by using oil left in the bottom of 2 stroke oil cans.

One blew up in my face.
My face was silver colored.
My mother drove me to the doctor.
The doctor started peeling the lead off my face.
I had one piece in my eye that had cast into the concave reverse image of my eye ball.
My face looked like a pizza, where each red scab as a piece of pepperoni.
The next morning, as I walked into first period shop class, the instructor said something to me about melting lead.
I figured he had advance information, and there was no way he could have figured that out.

My theory has always been that a rain drop went down one of my casting holes.

waksupi

10-03-2010, 11:07 PM

Brick, concrete, and stone hold water. That is why you never use river rock, or rock that has been buried around a fire pit.

I was casting bullets when I was 14 in 1965 by drilling holes in a fire brick with my father's 3/8" electric drill.

I told myself these were 38 caliber.

I heated coffee cans with lead in the bottom over a little cast iron Hibatchi by using oil left in the bottom of 2 stroke oil cans.

One blew up in my face.
My face was silver colored.
My mother drove me to the doctor.
The doctor started peeling the lead off my face.
I had one piece in my eye that had cast into the concave reverse image of my eye ball.
My face looked like a pizza, where each red scab as a piece of pepperoni.
The next morning, as I walked into first period shop class, the instructor said something to me about melting lead.
I figured he had advance information, and there was no way he could have figured that out.

My theory has always been that a rain drop went down one of my casting holes.

a.squibload

10-04-2010, 12:14 AM

I might have told this one, will keep it brief.

Around age 12? I melted WWs and poured it into a pail of water to make "art".
Looked pretty good, smooth flowing shapes with blobs, etc.

Years later a friend and I were casting, I had found the artwork lead and stuck it in the pot.
One piece must have had a tiny drop of encapsulated water in it.
The pop was not huge but it splashed a blob of lead onto the brim of his cap.
Could have been worse.

Find it hard to believe a drop by itself would force it's way under the surface of the melt.
I've water dropped many times, keeping the bucket lower and away from the pot!

JanZ

10-05-2010, 10:38 PM

Out here on the west coast every now and then you get a deal on two pound to five pound rock cod sinkers and most of the time they are great material to add to the pot.

These are used for deep water fishing out here so it's not uncommon got them to be dropped into 500 feet of water, most of the sinks are cast in a hurry and have voids in them and those voids are filled with water, at five hundred feet the pressure is about 4080 psi.

That water is trapped in those sinkers and if you drop a cold 3# sink into a half a pot of melted lead, well let's just say the Tinsel Fairy came to visit me once with one that had a water filled void. It was a KA-BLOOIE!!

What I ended up doing was to set all the used sinkers aside and stack them into an empty pot a few at a time and cook them a while at lower heat until all the hissing stopped, no more TF.:-D

Bret4207

10-06-2010, 07:17 AM

well bret i know it happens have scars to prove it. now i think the warnings are a bit overboard. but then if you do keep bending safty rules sone you will bend them too far.

I have no doubt something happens. I just don't believe it happens like some people think. By all means, use whatever safety methods you deem appropriate. But lets try and use some common sense in our explanations of HOW things happen.

Doby45

10-06-2010, 10:08 AM

I have a few tiny scars on the top of my hand from small specs of melt popping out when I drop sprues back in the pot. I say that to say, you are dealing with molten metal, burns are gonna happen regardless. The size and frequency is totally up to the caster. The absolute fear mongering is what is ridiculous. It is almost like people consider it a badge of honor to have had a visit from the "Tinsel Fairy" and lived to tell of it. Common sense rules the day. I sit and think to myself how some of these little girls would shrivel up and die if they saw me sitting at the door of my garage in the rain with a pot of water next to me and my flip flops on. Oh, and on a short glass topped table of all things, OH THE HUMANITY!!!!!

Paladin 56

10-07-2010, 09:01 PM

These are used for deep water fishing out here so it's not uncommon got them to be dropped into 500 feet of water, most of the sinks are cast in a hurry and have voids in them and those voids are filled with water, at five hundred feet the pressure is about 4080 psi.

Not to stir the pot so to speak, but the pressure in 500 feet of sea water is only about 224 psi, which is still plenty to force its way into any crack or crevice and cause problems.

JanZ

10-08-2010, 06:10 PM

Not to stir the pot so to speak, but the pressure in 500 feet of sea water is only about 224 psi, which is still plenty to force its way into any crack or crevice and cause problems.

I stand corrected :) must have hit times rather than divide on the calculator. For that pressure you'd need to be about 10,000 down, give or take a few thousand feet.

45-70 Chevroner

10-16-2010, 10:29 AM

When a mold is 500+ degrees and you get a drop of water in the cavity from water dropping, that water drop or drops in the cavity will absoluty be gone before you can pore more lead in it. I have had it happen a number of times. If you want to test it just dip the edge of the mold in the water and see how fast it evaporates.

lcclower

10-18-2010, 06:35 AM

Question, when that TF visits, how do you get lead spatters off brick?

lurch

10-18-2010, 08:50 AM

Question, when that TF visits, how do you get lead spatters off brick?

With much consternation and a little blue air in the vicinity...

About all you can do is get a small tool and have at it. I spilled a little on a concrete pad in the back yard and wound up letting most of it come off of it's own accord. :roll:

Cadillo

10-26-2010, 09:22 PM

With much consternation and a little blue air in the vicinity...

About all you can do is get a small tool and have at it. I spilled a little on a concrete pad in the back yard and wound up letting most of it come off of it's own accord. :roll:

My pressure washer removed some spills from the driveway, but I had to crank it up, 4000 psi. It removes a little of the concrete if you're careful and a lot if you aren't.

glockster157

10-28-2010, 08:32 AM

My tinsel fairy story goes like this. I was casting from a bottom pore pot with a Lee 158 SWC mold in August. I was sweating profusely. I believe a drop of sweat went into one of the mold cavities as when I did my next pore, about 1 or so seconds later, it exploded, blew all the lead out of the mold, luckily most of it went away from me and hit the wall. Taught me a lesson and I am very careful now about water and molten lead. Sounded like a 22 going off by the way.

old turtle

10-28-2010, 08:51 AM

Uncle Joe has a good idea. With all due respect Chevroner, I had exactly that happen with a 32 cal. mold about two weeks ago. I have been casting for over 40 years and this was the first time. It blew lead out of the hole in the sprue plate.

firefly1957

10-30-2010, 12:22 AM

The tinsel fairy visited me when melting battery plates did not have any trouble until I pushed a plate under liquid lead before it got hot. I was quite surprised by the force it sent lead over ten feet most of it missed me I never got it all off the brick wall behind me though.

waksupi

10-30-2010, 01:14 AM

Suo Gan

10-30-2010, 02:02 AM

I remember the first few pots I melted down. The guys had me scared to death that eventually my pot would explode. It was not a question of if but when, lol. This is one of those things that you understand has necessary hyperbole because if there was not any exaggeration, neophytes would not heed precautions. Its a rite of passage, standing there dressed like you are a scientist taking samples during nuclear winter over your little lead pot. Pretty soon you learn that its like most things in life. When the potential risk to family jewels is increased act accordingly. I wear a mask when 'smelting', I just wear my glasses when pouring boolits.
For new guys, don't be scared, but do not underestimate the amount of hurt 20 pounds of 700 degree lead can deliver either. This is another example of casters making things much more difficult than need be. Is there no happy medium with you people? :)

firefly1957

11-03-2010, 09:48 AM

waksupi that was before maintenance free batteries and calcium in the lead plates. I again have some old batteries on new property I bought and have found that I can salvage most of the lead using charcoal to reduce lead oxides back to lead and this is a outside only chore with a tight cover for pot.

Molly

11-04-2010, 06:35 PM

Try adding cold ingots to already working pot..., don't ask.

As a young man, I was living in Atlanta Ga one summer, and was casting bullets and sweating like I was trying to fill a wading pol for the kids. Sweat dripped off my chin and ran down my arms.

I didn't think too much of it, but when the pot got down to about 3/4 full, I decided to add another ingot to avoid the temperature swings that would result if I waited and had to add several ingots. So I reached and picked up an ingot, held it with the tip end in the melt so it wouldn't splash, and let go.

The ingot settled below the surface in nothing flat, and quickly thereafter there was an M-80 like explosion that emptied the pot. Molten wheelweight alloy was sprayed across two rooms, doing a pretty good job of coating them too. It did a pretty good job of coating my hands, face and open eyes as well.

After the shock, I realized there was one tiny spot in my right eye that wasn't covered, which enabled me to get to an emergency room. The doctor peeled lead sheeting off my face and eyes like it was aluminum foil. He said that the only thing that saved my face and eyes was the fact that the explosion was so violent that it splattered into a sheet so thin that it didn't have the heat (thermal energy) that a thicker sheet would have had.

In retrospect, it became obvious that my hand had transferred quite a bit of sweat to the ingot, which carried it below the surface of the melt. The cold ingot instantly froze the molten led into a solid, encircling container. But the sweat flashed off pretty quickly at some 700 degrees or so, and the cooled lead encapsulating it couldn't take the pressure. It was - in essence - a steam boiler with no pressure relief valve. BOOM!!! BIG TIME!!!

I came close to giving up casting, but realized that all I had to do was be darn sure the ingot is DRY before adding it to the melt. Laying an ingot on the top of the furnace for a couple of minutes will do this very nicely, and became my standard practice. Get it hot enough that you have to handle it with a pair of Channel Locks will guarantee that there is no trapped moisture on the ingot.

I was now sensitized to the problem though, and discovered that moisture on an ingot can come from an astonishing range of sources. If you store your ingots in an unheated garage, bring them into the house the night before you plan to cast. Be very observant of gas fired cooking or heating stoves: Their combustion produces moisture in the air that can condense on ingots faster than you would believe. Even a sneeze in the direction of your ingot pile is not a good thing.

xereaux

11-05-2010, 09:28 PM

Darn!!! Just finished culling and water quenching about 300 lbs. of Pb mini-muffins. Do I need to re-melt fron cold?

Molly

11-05-2010, 09:41 PM

You guys that think some of these cautionary tales express excessive concern are just among the fortunate class that haven't YET had the experience. Be warned: The process of convincing you otherwise is traumatic!

Kinda puts me in mind of the definition of a conservative gun owner: A (former) gun hating liberal who's been mugged!

Molly

11-05-2010, 09:43 PM

Darn!!! Just finished culling and water quenching about 300 lbs. of Pb mini-muffins. Do I need to re-melt fron cold?

Depends. Any chance of water filled shrinkage cavities? If not, just make sure they are plenty hot when you put them in your melt.

dicko

11-06-2010, 05:12 PM

100% correct. I always get a chuckle when someone says that a drop of sweat falling into the pot will cause a huge explosion. Pouring water on molten lead just makes a huge cloud of steam.

Newbies should be aware, though, that water near the pot can lead to water droplets on ingots and tools, and that can lead to accidents. Be careful.

I am a commercial caster of several years. I have half written a very detailed book about bullet casting, in which the safety chapter warns against letting moisture anywhere near the melt.

I prepare my alloy in bulk. Casting ingots gets the inot moulds so hot that they need to be water quenched. That gets water on my hand and forearm. Although I wipe it off with an old towel, occasionally a droplet fals into the melt as I dip the ladle.

It is completely logical that water on top of the melt should vapourise harmlessly, but I have experienced splattering so violent as to prove that moisture should be kept well away rom the melt.

I do not dispute that water can be poured on to melted lead if it is done carefully, but it is introducing an unnecessary risk, and I can think of no circumstance in which it should be necessary. I certainly wouldn't do it to protect my cat. I too have a cat. I make sure he can't get near melted lead.

Doby45

11-07-2010, 12:11 AM

Everyone make sure you wear your asbestos panties when you get anywhere near your pot.. You all should probably wear a life jacket when you go to the beach, after all, you COULD drown. I am all about basic safety but I doubt seriously that you have to do your smelting or boolit pouring in a blast shelter. I also sometimes operate my blender within 2 feet of the kitchen sink. OH THE HUMANITY!!!

:popcorn:

a.squibload

11-08-2010, 03:29 AM

How did you know about my asbestos panties?

Suo Gan

11-08-2010, 05:09 AM

When I smelt outside I blast off the condensation with a weed burner. Works like a charm. Indoors I preheat my ingots on an electric griddle usually. I view a pot exploding as serious a threat as a double charge, but I don't shoot my reloads with a string tied to the trigger at 20 paces behind a cinder block wall either. Sometimes you need faith that you can get the job done without making a mistake. But human error does occur. So best do it the same way time after time so rote memorization will be on your side. Grandad always wondered if the cows were smart or stupid for going into the same milking booth day after day.

XIT

12-08-2010, 09:54 PM

This is a very informative post guys. Thank you.:coffeecom

No Good

12-18-2010, 11:36 PM

It's funny I found this tread. I'm just about ready to cast the first time and was just asking about steam explosions. i was promised it won't happen as long as you dont get moisture below the surface of the melt.
But it sounds like things get exciting sometimes if you arn't super careful.
I guess eye protection, at least, is called for.

IridiumRed

01-26-2011, 11:22 AM

Great thread folks

I've done some reloading, never done any casting, but might at some point in the future.

If it wasn't for this site, I wouldn't even be thinking about it at all. Not because I was so scared of the idea, but just because I didn't know that much about it. This site has taught me SO much, I know if I were to start casting, I'd be successful much sooner / easier with what I've learned here

Sounds like there is a wide range of opinions here about some small things like whether a drop of sweat can just fall off of one's brow, land in the pot, and make the "tinsel fairy" appear. Maybe it can, maybe it can't. If I start casting, I KNOW I'm going to get a faceshield, and some sort of thick apron (besides heavy gloves, work shirt).

Without this thread, I'm pretty sure I would have known about dangers of sweat dropping in there, or any other small amounts of moisture falling in the pot.

But whats great about this thread (and ones like it) is that it brings up a bunch of things I KNOW I wouldn't have thought of myself (would have just had to learn "the hard way" perhaps) - such as the possibility of getting oxidation / condensation on previously cast ingots that have been sitting around.

Or, the idea of getting some splash from the drop bucket, and ways to mitigate that.

Stuff like that is great to know, thanks guys :)

Idaho Sharpshooter

02-08-2011, 08:34 PM

If anyone wants to show me this phenomenon in person, I will have about 250lbs of molten WW in my turkey fryer at about 750 degrees waiting. You put your face a foot over the pot, and I'll splash water from my hose into it. We can make a mint off of the video sales.

Doby45

02-08-2011, 09:21 PM

That would be mildly retarded. I don't think anyone is denying that it can and does happen. It just doesn't happen because there is a raincloud 12 miles away or a drop of dew on a pine in your yard.

Idaho Sharpshooter

02-09-2011, 12:24 AM

I was going to warn you that lead fumes can cause brain damage; but I think in your case it's too late...

regards,

Rich

I have seen it happen, and can replicate it for you on command. All you have to do is stand there and look down.

Doby45

02-09-2011, 10:51 AM

I can see some village in Idaho is missing their idiot.

Mr_Rich

02-12-2011, 08:13 AM

I used to work in the cast house of what was the Reynolds Metals facility in McCook IL. We cast large aluminum ingots from the furnaces with a typical furnace load being about 100,000 pounds. Back in the '50s there was a catastrophic explosion because aluminum pigs were loaded into the melting furnace that had been sitting out in the yard and had collected moisture in the sinkholes.

Twelve people died in the explosion. After that they instituted a policy of drying all pigs for 24 hours before charging them into a furnace. Obviously after an accident like that the need to keep water away from the molten metal was a prominent part of the safety training.

Rich

Idaho Sharpshooter

02-12-2011, 02:39 PM

Heck Dooby, I'll make it easier for you. Stick your face over the pot and just spit in it!

Flippin' cracker. Lotsa noise...

Rich

Doesn't look like your village is missing theirs.

bobkk

02-28-2011, 03:09 PM

I was at a neighbors and we were casting. Don't know what he put in the pot but it exploded. I was about 8 or so feet away with my back facing the pot. I had molten lead on my back. Had a down vest on and lost feathers with each step I took. He said what he put in it was just the same as we had being using.

biker_trash_1340

03-04-2011, 03:28 AM

Hi all, just joined up.
I also worked at a aluminum foundry (auto wheels) for 18 years. We had quite a few times were we had explosions.

You all are right about moisture getting under the liquid metal. Most of the time it was people putting wet gloves or trash in the scrap hoppers. They were then dumped in to be remelted. From what we could tell the object was colder then the metal and would get in-cased then the steam would start to build (think hand grenade)

As for things dropping on top. not a good idea, but not as bad. most would just burn off. Snow would come in through the roof and fall into the open furnace (Michigan) Someone came up with the idea of adding potatoes to help degas / flux the metal. Still not a good idea. When you add bees wax to the top of the lead to flux it, that's what your doing,,, adding a liquid to the top of the metal... just like a sweat drop.

Another source was cold / damp sow molds (1,300 lbs) that were pulled inside to be filled. They would get about 1/2 full before they would pop. All the sows that were added to the furnaces would be set on the ledge to get hot, then pushed in with the next one when needed. Steele sample molds (3" round, 1/2" thick) would reach the roof if it was wet. If a low psi. mold would leak on a pour and spill to the ground, the concrete would have enough moisture to flip over a 4"x 3' x 3' thick cooling sheet aluminum.

I don't want to come across as a know it all, still got a lot to learn and been checking out some good stuff here. Just be safe. BT

waksupi

03-04-2011, 03:31 AM

Welcome aboard, and a good point about those that may dump hot ingots or lead onto concrete. It can, and will explode.

supersonic

06-18-2011, 09:39 AM

mroliver77

06-22-2011, 12:28 PM

Wow. Thought that would have exploded.
Have you read this thread? The water explodes when trapped UNDER the surface. Lead is much more dense tyhan water. It would be hard for water to push water under the surface of lead unless of course it had sufficient velocity. The worst offender as I see it is lead ingots with moister trapped or moist utensils pushed under the surface. Many of us here have done tests of dripping, pouring and splashing water onto a lead pot with little to no surprises.
Jay

perazzi

10-27-2011, 06:17 PM

or, in my case, a 15* ladle into 750* lead pot.

odfairfaxsub

10-27-2011, 07:32 PM

Try adding cold ingots to already working pot..., don't ask.

whew, tell you what. i have had them boil hot lead onto the table. scarey if your sitting right there infront of it

kappy

11-13-2011, 02:38 AM

I just had my first explosion... had an ingot which I figured must have been dry enough after two hours... and was apparently wrong. The word stamped into the ingot must have had some water still in it. Next thing you know, enough volatility to have a few drops hit the underside of the garage door. Awesome... and scary. It all went straight up, fortunately.

Dave18

11-26-2011, 10:37 PM

I have seen burps and pops with my lead pot,

then have seen aluminum explosions in the past,

imagine what went through my mind when one of the melt pots where I work,
induction melter 50lb pot, had a coil break through and we had water in the pot with 2800F metal ,the metal being suspended in the middle of pot by the induction field, with the water coming in the bottom and steaming off, we tilted the pot and then backed off the power and ran, figuring we were going to have a very bad day, :shock:

believe it or not we did not have a steam explosion but had some hairy moments till things got cooled down

thtwit

11-26-2011, 11:49 PM

I joined cast boolits a couple of years ago then had a minni-disaster at home that required a lot of remodeling. So I'm just now geting around to 'scouting' the forums and learning, learning and more learning!
I had fooled [note that operative word there] around with smelting and casting lead for several years, pouring sinkers and various fishing baits. But had never taken time to actully try and learn something about what I was getting done. Fortunately I learned about mixing water and molten metal w/o any serious reprocussions.
I also learned about spilling molten lead on damp concreate, with only a few holes in my pants legs:-( Now that I've let a buddy who shoots 'cast' almost exclusivly, talk me into expanding my horizions by adding to my passion for guns the shooting of cast bulnets also. Well Actully a good part of the need to go to cast bullets has to do with an old 'country boy' judy wanting to keep on surviving. So I figured I had better learn something about what I'm gonna be doing? Hopfully so that I won't keep on getting 'fooled'.
Right now I'm spending a lot of time just clicking and reading.
Thus the reason for butting in on this thread. I have noted in several places refrences to 'kitty litter'? as well as using scads of materials to 'flux' with? I've purchased a couple of 'casting' books, Lyman's Bullet casting being one of them. I spend a lot of time searching for more info. on the subject and when I scare up something that I haven't ehard of I axk WHY?, Who, What, and Where to find info.
Since I'm an old Phart that has lost more memory than he has left I seem to have to keep re-learning! Like the 'kitty litter' and various and sundary items/substances for fluxing that has been mentioned? I know this is just too simple a question to be true but I'ma gonna ask one of those never ending questions anyway:-) Is there a 'forum page where 'old and new tricks are discussed such as 'floating Kitty litter, or old motor oil Etc.? Oh Yeah and here's the second question and it's related to the above. Since I have smelted and cast before I did have a reasonably workable system put together and was in the process of improving on it when I came across a discussion last night where several members had discussed various smelting and casting setups. Some of those discussions gave me several ideas for refining my own 'kit' But I've forgotten which forum I was on when I read that? Is there some way that I can call back up a thread that I have made post on? So far my feble efforts to 'search' it back up have failed and so I just took to browsing other intresting stuff, figuring some day I'll stumble back across it!
Finally [I promise, this is my last question, fo now] I intend to be around for a while and do not want to wear out my welcome w/o even knowing I've managed to whizz off a whole bunch of members so If it appears that I might be drifting in that direction somewhere down the road? Someone just whisper a word of caution in me ear and I'll tune myself back up some!
Thanks, thtwit

Reload3006

11-27-2011, 12:02 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sn3oChBpeUw

Idaho Sharpshooter

11-27-2011, 02:16 AM

Inkman

11-27-2011, 11:29 AM

Little experience last nite......

....First time casting in the cold here in kalif and made sure to use ingots that were garage temp but definitely dry. Carried some extras out to the back yard to add to the pot after the first batch was cast. Added a cold one to the pot and heard the "sizzle" lol and a tiny bit of steam came off the pot. Scared the **** outta me and i jumped back. Turned out the ones i brought out to add to the pot had a little condensation on them from sitting out in the cold air after only about an hour.

Didn't even occur to me the need to warm them up on the rim first as i usually just toss em in and use the pots cool down/warm up time as a break to hit the head and let the mold cool down. Not anymore....:groner: I was amazed at the time that moisture would form on the ingots in such a short amount of time, but thinking afterwards, it's not so amazing after all :(

All part of the learning curve i suppose [smilie=b:

Al

Bad Water Bill

11-29-2011, 10:47 PM

Sure glad you survived your visit by the tinsel fairy. Hope you never forget it over the years.

The next time you take a cold beverage from the fridge and pour it into a glass count the seconds before condensation starts to form. The big difference between PB and the glass is you expect it on the glass.

trench

12-01-2011, 03:04 PM

man, I upended a 35 gal drum of wheelwts into a molten 100 lb pot, but ony about 20 lbs of lead in the pot, to empty the last of the wheelwts into it. The drum had stood outdoors for who knows how long, and had ICE in its bottom! Lordy. I had to cut the laces of my boots with my knife, a big splash having gone down inside of my sock, and still got the hell burned out of my ankle.

I also once overturned a 20 lb pot into my lap, with the phone cord. I still can't believe how fast I moved! :-) If I could just move like that all the time, I'd be MMA champ of all time.

59sharps

12-02-2011, 02:04 PM

Elkins45

12-10-2011, 09:12 AM

according to the experts here, none of which have tried it, lead cannot splash out if water is dropped in the pot. So, this video is not possible.

My offer still stands, for one of the "it can't happen crowd" to come over the next time I am smelting WW and pee into the smelting pot.

Not to 'stir the pot' but there's a distinction here that you're missing. In that video, as in any case where there is an actual lead spray, the water had to get under the surface of the melt before it flashed to steam. Standing a few feet away and giving a mighty squeeze to a turkey baster can give the water stream enough inertia that it will penetrate the melt surface when it hits. The same thing can happen when a raindrop has 2000 feet to accelerate before hitting the surface of the melt. If a fellow could 'dribble' enough he actually could safely pee in the pot...except for the cloud of rising steam that might cook his weenie :)

If the video guy REALLY wanted to demonstrate a tinsel fairy he should have tied a saturated cotton ball to a wheelweight and tossed that into the pot!

Gently pouring the water on top is an entirely different thing than forcefully shoving it under the surface. As long as ALL the water remains above the melt then the steam has someplace to go when it expands. The problem is that it's not all that hard to accidentally drag a bit of water below the surface..especially if it's hiding on something you're adding to the pot.

I have some 1lb ingots that have been stored in the garage for two years now, but they once got wet and so they have a little layer of oxide on them. If I don't rest them on the edge of the pot for a few minutes to let the tiny bit of condensation inside the oxide layer bake off I'll get a small eruption when I add them. Again, it's because the water is being carried under the surface.

So, to summarize:

1) Water ONLY on the surface won't cause a tinsel explosion
2) Water below the surface will cause one
3) The threshold between (1) and (2) is an easy one to cross accidentally
4) Keeping water away from the melt is, in general a good idea.

Flinchrock

12-10-2011, 10:06 AM

Flinchrock

12-10-2011, 10:10 AM

Not to 'stir the pot' but there's a distinction here that you're missing. In that video, as in any case where there is an actual lead spray, the water had to get under the surface of the melt before it flashed to steam. Standing a few feet away and giving a mighty squeeze to a turkey baster can give the water stream enough inertia that it will penetrate the melt surface when it hits. The same thing can happen when a raindrop has 2000 feet to accelerate before hitting the surface of the melt. If a fellow could 'dribble' enough he actually could safely pee in the pot...except for the cloud of rising steam that might cook his weenie :)

If the video guy REALLY wanted to demonstrate a tinsel fairy he should have tied a saturated cotton ball to a wheelweight and tossed that into the pot!

Gently pouring the water on top is an entirely different thing than forcefully shoving it under the surface. As long as ALL the water remains above the melt then the steam has someplace to go when it expands. The problem is that it's not all that hard to accidentally drag a bit of water below the surface..especially if it's hiding on something you're adding to the pot.

I have some 1lb ingots that have been stored in the garage for two years now, but they once got wet and so they have a little layer of oxide on them. If I don't rest them on the edge of the pot for a few minutes to let the tiny bit of condensation inside the oxide layer bake off I'll get a small eruption when I add them. Again, it's because the water is being carried under the surface.

So, to summarize:

1) Water ONLY on the surface won't cause a tinsel explosion
2) Water below the surface will cause one
3) The threshold between (1) and (2) is an easy one to cross accidentally
4) Keeping water away from the melt is, in general a good idea.

These things here match my experience with casting.

MikeS

12-11-2011, 09:31 AM

I Seen first hand a little bit of spray form opening a beer empty a pot too. water and hot lead do not go well together. If you think its ok then I guess you should go cast in a little rain shower. try your luck have at it! Why NOT!

Actually I have cast in a rain shower. Well, not boolit casting, rather ingot casting. I had my turkey fryer setup in the back yard, and had about 50lbs in the pot when the sky opened up! Here in FL it can go from sunny to a monsoon within 5 minutes! When the first few drops started I kept filling the ingot moulds, as I had 2 more to fill. By the time I had them filled the rain drops were getting much bigger, so I decided I better call it quits. I turned off the gas to the fryer, and then stepped back a ways, and kept a watch for the tinsel fairy which I was sure was going to come. Well, the pot made lots of hissing noises, as did the filled ingot moulds, had lots of steam coming off them too, but not one drop of lead came out of the pot, or the ingots! 20 minutes later, when the sun had come back out there was an inch of water in the dutch oven over the lead, but other than that there was no way of knowing it had even rained at all! The surface of the lead resembled the face of the moon, all sorts of nice craters in it, and the ingots had a rough finish to the exposed lead as well. I was going to continue on with the smelting, but decided that I had enough ingots cast for the day, so I just poured off the water, and left the remaining lead in the pot for the next smelt.

So I've seen it with my own eyes. The water didn't get under the surface of the lead (I don't know how!), so there was no explosion. Would I want to do that on a regular basis? No. But I don't worry if a drop of sweat gets into my pot either.

And as for the video in the YouTube link above, the guy doing that was really risking his pot, as if some of that water he was squirting at it had gotten in to the electronics of it, that would have fried it!

Bret4207

12-12-2011, 07:29 AM

I've cast in the rain outside too, and the snow and with bugs and birds around. The fine point to this whole argument is that water ON THE SURFACE of a molten lead pot will flash off. Water/moisture getting UNDER the surface will work like any other rapidly expanding gas- It'll take the path if least resistance if it can. So while the force is directed in all directions the upward and outward areas are where the splash happens. Until it gets under the melt surface we aren't going to see the explosion because the gases aren't contained. Anything gets UNDER the surface- yupper, tinsel fairy.

5 pages to come to a simple realization that what we say and how we say it matters. Sheesh!

FAsmus

12-12-2011, 09:48 PM

Gentelmen;

I have a very real water-in-the-alloy story for you.

Here in Wyoming I cast in an unheated shed. I like to work at casting in temperatures well below freezing since the turkey-burner furnace I use makes things too hot for comfort when things get much warmer than 40 degrees.

~ Anyway; I typically run off a potfull of bullets and before I go inside I re-fill the pot with fresh alloy for the next time.

In doing this I necessarily have to pass pieces of basic material into the empty pot. This naturally includes passing things like handfulls of sub-freezing wheel-weights and Linotype ingots through the hot gasses being produced by the turkey-cooker flames. The cold material collects condensed water vapor on their surfaces from the gasses and PRESTO! As I put the cold metal into the hot pool of alloy in the pot - well below the surface in some cases - I have steam explosions jumping right at me. It really doesn't take much water at all to make things quite exciting.

The worst problem is with WW clips which accumulate condensed water droplets under the clips virtually instantly during their trip through the hot gasses.

The solution is to turn off the burner while adding material - then turn it back on to melt it into the preferred alloy ready for next time.

I doubt many of you cast in the cold over a turkey-cooker but if you do ~ Watch it!

Good evening,
Forrest

jabilli

01-25-2012, 02:51 AM

Yep, haha I remember the shock and awe I had when I took a good number of wet reject bullets and wet sprue nuggets and plopped them in. Lesson learned. What a mess. I had the sense to wear goggles though.

I just made a video today and made sure to include that in my tips- Just dipped a spoon in water and only with the residual wetness of the spoon dipped it in to show folks on a small scale what happens.

Video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRPYp1kb2-Y&list=FLxwtur2W82khvm3hCYWdydQ&index=1&feature=plpp_video

cut to 5:45 if you want to only see the reaction

stubshaft

01-25-2012, 02:55 AM

I have had an "intimate" relationship with the Tinsel Fairy already. There was no myth involved!

a.squibload

01-27-2012, 04:52 AM

... As I put the cold metal into the hot pool of alloy in the pot...

Just had a thought (rare, I know) about a fry-basket or something like that
suspended over the pot for a few minutes to heat up the WWs.
Maybe on a couple pieces of angle iron. That might save you some propane
not having to shut it down and start it up again.
If it's really cold sometimes I use a propane torch to drive off moisture
before throwing stuff in the pot.

Or you could get a lid!

I found a tiny splat of lead on my face shield, didn't notice where it came from.
Was stuck right in front of my eye.

Idaho Sharpshooter

01-31-2012, 06:28 PM

MikeS

02-01-2012, 12:53 AM

It's not only water that makes the tinsel fairy appear. If you pour hot lead into cold (but dry) ingot moulds, they will do a dance! Once I decided to mix up some more alloy (which involves a turkey fryer and ingot moulds), and it was cold outside (well, for FL at least) I think it was either in the upper 40's, or lower 50's, I took the sheet of drywall like substance that I put over the cement benches in the backyard, fired up the turkey fryer, and set my ingot moulds on the board. Once everything was mixed, and fluxed, and ready to pour into the ingot moulds I started pouring. I got my first ingot mould filled, and was halfway thru the second one when the first exploded, it jumped about 8" into the air, emptying itself in my general direction!

Longwood

02-01-2012, 01:57 AM

dagger dog

02-05-2012, 01:32 PM

I have had 2 close calls.

Once while casting jig heads for fishing, it had been raining and stopped, so I sat my melting pot on the burner, started dipping as soon as the melt was ready,accidently dropped a dipper full of molten lead on the WET concrete, that resulted in an explosion of lead and concrete that spattered me but caused no permanate damage other than a 1/2" deep 2X2" crater in my patio.

The second was while casting bullets in the garage, I put about 4 one pound smelted and cleaned ingots in my bottom pour pot, went about getting other things ready and seeing the thermometer was showing "just right" decided I would add another ingot, well it didn't explode but BOILED VIOLENTLY, which resulted in me leaving and spread molten lead all over the pot and bench.

The ingots had been stored outside in an old cabinet and were about a year old were oxidized badly with that grey dusty coating. The day of casting was a very humid day and all I could figure out was that the oxidation held the moisture,though they didn't feel wet.

The first 4 ingots were heated slowly as the pot came to casting temp., not a problem but adding the 5th COLD MOIST ingot to the 700 degree pot of molten lead pushed what moisture that was trapped in the oxidizied coating under the surface and was turned into steam, and caused the rapid boil.

Glad I had leather shoes and long sleeves!

Alan in Vermont

02-05-2012, 03:56 PM

My offer to the OP that claimed the exploding pot was a myth to stand in front of my turkey cooker full of molten alloy and pee in the pot has still not been taken up. I offered him a substantial sum of money to do so in front of a camera, but to date he has refused.

Idaho, why don't you just dry up and blow away! I read through this whole thing and it strikes me that YOU are the only one who repeatedly has advocated deliberately doing something really stupid so you could prove a point that was never the original focus of this thread. At no point did the OP advocate introducing large quantities of water, at some sort of velocity/pressure, to the pot deliberately.

Clark

04-11-2012, 12:46 PM

The last bullet I cast was in 1965.
I drilled a 3/8" holes in a fire brick and poured molten lead into them.
One hole had a rain drop, and it blew molten lead onto my face.

The doctor removed lead that solidified on my eye ball. The lead solidified in the concave shape that fit my eye ball.

Since then I have bought a few mold and tried to get others to cast bullets for me.
I buy cast bullets on line.

Springfield

04-11-2012, 12:59 PM

I smelt abut 3000 lbs a year, some sheet lead, some range lead, plumbing pipe,sailboat keels, what ever is cheap. From what I have experienced water on top of the lead, like rain falling in, will do little. Insert a wet object under the water and you will get reactions from extreme boiling to emptying the pot in all directions. Pour hot lead on top of water, like into a wet ingot mould, same thing, either lots of hissing or maybe a POP and lead all over you. The common theme is the water has to get under/into the lead, otherwise it just boils off. A drop of water on top of the lead will not cause an explosion. Peeing into a pot MIGHT get it under the surface, so I won't risk it.

delt167502

05-13-2012, 05:06 AM

I worked in a aluminun die cast shop as a foreman.Part of my job was instructing new employees on the do's & don'ts of loading a furnace. 1 of the things is always preheat the material to be added to the melt. You can take molten material and pour it into water,as long as there is room for the gas to excape around the metal.if the holding furnace for the machines,had to be shut down ,to work on the die cast machine.we would cool the metal with a trickle of water from a water hose.when we started back up,as the furnace heated up the water evaporated. It would take as long as 36 hours to reheat the metal.

DrCaveman

05-25-2012, 04:52 PM

latesvak

05-28-2012, 04:55 PM

well no Tinsel Fairy for me yet but i did have a odd thunderstorm come by while i was just about done turning 150 lb of ww into nice clean ingots. the closest thing to the Tinsel Fairy for me would be when i had a 8 qt c.i. pot melting down some range scrap and a live 22lr snuck into the pot. was talking to a friend and it went off sending us running. from now on its double check and lid stays on till its all melted down.

latesvak

onehousecat

06-22-2012, 03:31 AM

Just had a nice brain fart to contribute to the 'myth'. Was water quenching a bunch of rifle rounds, got done, and turned down the pot, dumped in the sprue. Took my water bucket, drained it, shook it around, drained it more, using my hand as a seive. Pulled out about 6-7 rejects.

As I was passing back by the (still molten) pot, I casually dropped the rejects in with gloved hand.

Sizzle! Pop!

No splash, no tinsel fairy. Guess the amount of water on the boolits was insignificant enough to not cause the dreaded lead explosion. Or I was lucky.

My experience, from about 15 minutes ago. I will not repeat that mistake, despite my getting away unscathed.

You were a lot luckier than I was. I use a 5 gallon bucket about 1/2 full of water to quench my bullets. I always knock off the spues on the table top, then empty the bullets in the bucket. One sprue hit the floor. I picked it up, looked for water, felt for water and found it dry. I added it to the pot and found it was not dry. The miniscule amount of water on the sprue gave me a case of what looked like measles.

After that, anything that touched the floor only went into the pot at the start of the next casting session. That was my only misadventure in more than 20+ years of casting (and quenching) bullets. Hard lessons stick with you.

ilcop22

06-25-2012, 04:29 PM

I had another visit from the tinsel fairy last night. Didn't have my safety glasses on - like a fool - and my inner eye/tear duct got a little burned. Nothing some eye drops couldn't relieve, but still - No fun, and certainly not very smart. I need to glue those things to my face so I stop forgetting they're on my head...

biker_trash_1340

06-25-2012, 08:03 PM

Ok, I posted earlier about water and lead. Had a new one today, just popped about 5lbs out of my 4-20 pro. When I set up my dies I always make up some dummy rounds (no powder or primer 100% sure on this). Taking a pair of pliers and holding just the bullet into the melt, on the 3rd or 4th one it happened. This was a complete surprise as I have done this many times. This is what I think happened, I lube all my cast with Alox… that is except one (Lee TC 9mm) that has a lube grove. At one time I pan lubed some to try with a wax based lube. That’s the one that got me… by holding that one under the metal there was no room for the expanding liquid / steam to escape from inside the brass. I was wearing some safety equipment (had one glove off) got lead on my wrist under my watch, on the top / side of my head and under my collar. But all and all I got out lucky.

Sabaharr

07-07-2012, 11:01 PM

I had a visit from the tensil fairy about 20 years ago. A buddy and I were melting wheel weights down in his shed and it was nearly 10° outside. I brought the bucket of weights in and slid a handful into the pot. YUP, Frosty the Snowman had left some crystals on the weights and they skipped the liquid state of matter. From solid to gas in a split second. We were both drenched in molten led as was most of his small shed. But being that cold we were very bundled up including ski masks. Hey, 10° is cold for Louisiana. No injuries (excluding pride) at all between us, but a well learned lesson. So watch out for frost or ice on your lead too.

Idaho Sharpshooter

07-09-2012, 12:04 AM

It appears, from the range of experiences shared, that those who have not yet met the "Tinsel Fairy" are the ones who have not yet replicated the instantaneous lowering of the pot level.

I suggest to you Doubting Thomases that you need only to dip a couple sprues in your quenching bucket and drop them back into the molten alloy to believe.

It's like an AD; there are two groups of shooters. Those who have, and those that are going to.

Rich
the offer still stands.

Silver Hand

07-09-2012, 11:05 PM

My first experience with water and lead was casting large sinkers in the late 1960s.
Placing a five pound round of plumbers lead into gas fired 1/2 full 25 lb. pot.
There was the sizzle n steam then the pop.
I was six feet away with my back turned the moment I let go of the pig. I thought I knew what was coming next. It splashed small droplets, about a four foot area in one direction the largest were dime and a few nickle size. I was awaiting a bomb.
Not in this case. Tinsel, Might have been if it had hit a tree.

Elkins45

07-13-2012, 10:24 PM

I suggest to you Doubting Thomases that you need only to dip a couple sprues in your quenching bucket and drop them back into the molten alloy to believe.

I have no idea who you think you are arguing with here. There hasn't been a single person who disputes that carrying water BELOW the molten lead surface will cause a steam explosion. But just for the sake of 100% accuracy let me ask a clarifying question: is it your contention that water gently introduced to the TOP of the pot will cause a steam explosion?

Tell you what: the next time I cast I will shoot some video of myself dropping water onto the surface of the melt with a straw or a pipette if I can find one.

Video posted below:

Elkins45

07-14-2012, 02:15 PM

Water being dropped onto molten lead. Notice how the droplets skitter across the molten surface on a cushion of superheated steam. This is referred to as the Leidenfrost effect. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leidenfrost_effect

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0q3tNdvMtio&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I will try to embed it if I can figure out how.

Elkins45

07-14-2012, 02:16 PM

no luck embedding

Idaho Sharpshooter

07-15-2012, 07:46 PM

Elkins45

07-15-2012, 08:52 PM

sooooooo, prove it to us by dunking a 1lb ingot into your quench bucket, clenching it between your teeth, and then dropping it straightway from 2 feet above into the full pot of molten lead alloy as a friend videos it on their cell phone.

That is the problem the naysayers have in common; none of them want to back their assertion by showing the believers here that we are wrong.

No offense, of course, but the issue is standing behind your post.

The rest is just organizing electrons into a sentence.

Rich

I gave a polite reply to your PM, but that was before I realized you had posted this insulting response publicly in the thread.

I dont have to stand behind my post. It's not my fault if you don't understand the point of this whole thread. You are either deliberately being obtuse or you lack the reading comprehension to discern the otherwise obvious point. I stood behind my point and your response was to reply with a taunt that isnt even about the point being made. If I made a video of myself pouring a whole glass of water over the pot I'm sure your response would be that I'm cheating because I didn't plunge the glass into the melt.

I'll tell you what: I will happily make the exact video you requested...just as soon as you explain how it has ANY relevance to a discussion of water on the surface of the melt. After all, that's the point of the whole thread.

You've done nothing in this thread except troll it, insult other members, and argue in opposition to a point that absolutely nobody was making. I went back and reread the whole thread just to be sure.

So, I will say it one last time:THE WATER IS ONLY DANGEROUS IF IT GETS BELOW THE SURFACE OF THE LEAD!

Bret4207

07-16-2012, 08:21 AM

sooooooo, prove it to us by dunking a 1lb ingot into your quench bucket, clenching it between your teeth, and then dropping it straightway from 2 feet above into the full pot of molten lead alloy as a friend videos it on their cell phone.

That is the problem the naysayers have in common; none of them want to back their assertion by showing the believers here that we are wrong.

No offense, of course, but the issue is standing behind your post.

The rest is just organizing electrons into a sentence.

Rich

What kind of an idiot would deliberately force water BENEATH the surface of a melt? That's what you advocate Rich. That's not what we have been talking about for years here. The point that has been made dozens of times is that unless the water gets under the surface somehow then you won't have an issue. If water does get under the surface then you may well have a steam explosion. It's pretty simple and I don't see what it is you are arguing. I also don't know why you'd want to video another guys reproductive organ, but lets not get into that. This all started with the assertion that a single drop of sweat or a horsefly landing on top of the melt would result in a catastrophic explosion. It's another old wives tale that was repeated for decades that needed clarification. Just as the moss does not always grow on the north side of a tree, or grow on a tree at all for that matter, and just as swimming within 30 minutes of a meal does not guarantee you will cramp up and drown, a drop of water ON THE SURFACE of a melt will not automatically result in a steam explosion.

Silver Hand

07-21-2012, 03:51 AM

Today- I had another chance to visit with the tinsel fairy.
I have been on a quest to replace my diminished supply of Boolits in various calibers. Two days and almost a thousand cast well.
My inattention to the weather and a bit of over indulgence left me with a second or two of thoughtlessness. I reached into my tool bucket [brought in from the rain several days ago] grabbed my Skimmer, which has a four and one half inch screen and evidently a hollow stem supporting said screen. The rest is history. Sizzle, Steam and PoP. No burns thankfully.

jfischer

12-15-2012, 03:17 PM

My recent meeting with the tinsel fairy, my right hand with welding glove on was over the top of my pot putting some spru cuttings back in the pot. My gloved hand shielded most of the explosion but a glob landed on my unprotected left hand and it sounded like steak on a grill.

Sent from my Transformer Prime TF201 using Tapatalk 2

Boneguru

12-16-2012, 12:00 PM

ouch, hope that gets better soon, Thanks for all of the tips, even if it did get a little dicey there for a bit.
Ray

Rocket Man

12-17-2012, 01:31 PM

It is basic science. If you under stand physics you won't be asking why. The specific gravity of lead is many times heaver than water. If you mix lead with water lead sinks to the bottom. If you pour a tablespoon of water on melted lead the water boils away. If you throw a wet lead bullet into the lead melt pot is will explode because the bullet goes below the surface taking water with it. Cold bullets adsorb moisture from the air they can be a problem too if you throw one into the lead melt pot. Use your brain it is all common sense stuff.

FAsmus

12-18-2012, 12:11 PM

Rocket;

You say; .."cold bullets absorb moisture from the air"..

This is not so! Lead is not a form of sponge - it is mainly solid stuff, not porous.

To say it like it is, cold lead can be a place where water condenses right from the air around it - thereby becoming a hazard if the (bullet, ingot, wheel weight, ~ whatever..) ~ is added to a pot of molten alloy without preheating the material first.

Good morning,
Forrest

hickfu

12-19-2012, 03:29 AM

Wow good thread! I have one visit since I started casting my own. I was melting pewter in my dutch oven to pour into small ingots for adding to my mix of WW and pure lead. I was just sitting there watching it and hadnt added any new meterial in around 5 minutes. I had something on my glasses and I stepped back and took them off to clean them, while I was cleaning them the pot just exploded and I got 1 little piece of molten pewter in my eye. Luckily it got better after a couple weeks, but I never did figure out what made it happen as it was a nice sunny day, I was outside with no breeze and blocked in between a travel trailer and a wood fence. All I can think of was a bird dropping something into the pot but I didnt see it so I dont know. This did 1 thing, it made me aware of what can happen with molten anything in a pot.... I cast boolits from a 20# electric pot and I store my ingots inside the shed, I have a small toaster oven sitting a couple feet away so I heat up all the ingots I will be using in the session in the oven and then I still put them onto the top of the pot to keep them hot before letting them go into the mix, It helps me feel safe.

Doc

ffg

01-04-2013, 08:32 PM

I don't want water close by when I am casting .

Ranger Green

04-10-2013, 02:09 AM

lovedogs

04-12-2013, 08:04 AM

Doby45...This is way off topic but just had to mention this to you. I have no idea where Powder Springs is but the best dog I've ever known, my 12 yr. old Border Collie, was born there. I just noticed your location and had to tell you. She is papered all the way back to Scotland.

delt167502

07-23-2013, 03:54 AM

The quickest and the safest way is to preheat your next load for your casting pot or your scrap melting pot. You can pick up a elect. grill at a yard sale for around 5$ or just set a pan on top of your pot .By the time you are ready for more lead it will be dry.
Common sense can help to. Happy casting.

SAWebbx1

08-04-2013, 01:25 AM

I have seen a bug cause an eruption while smelting with propane under a propane lantern on a warm dry night. Big moth went in with enough velocity and lead alloy came out with more velocity. Didn't happen to a buddy, it happened to me. Saw it happen. It was as if the scales fell from my eyes and I came to believe. And I was sober. No beverages in caster or pot. Bug. Big effing bug. Not much spatter on my glasses but plenty for an object lesson. I have been assured it is possible to put a lit cigarette out by dropping it in a bucket of gasoline. I might watch someone I didn't like try it. From a distance.

Arctic Blues

09-08-2013, 04:31 PM

When I smelt, I fill up my empty pot.
I don't add to the pot until it is at least almost empty.

When I cast, I start out with a almost empty pot.
Put a the ingots in it I can. Then, I stack ingots on top of the pot to preheat them and cover the whole mess with a reusable piece of tin foil to help hold the heat in.

Usually, I will stack the mold in with the ingots to help keep it warm also.

I preheat the ingots because I am tight and it saves time as well.
Helping to ensure they are bone dry is a benefit I never though about until I started reading this post.

Thanks for all the information!
Knowledge is true power.
This site helps us all and is a wonderful tool!

like it all

09-08-2013, 06:13 PM

Hey fellas , I'm the one who first asked about water quenching bullets. I tried it, it works rather well. It still makes me nervous when I hear my little lead creations sizzle as they enter the water. Most of my casting procedures are out of the Lyman cast bullet handbook I purchased in 1973. I did take the precaution to place my water bucket on the floor with it having only a foot of water in it. Since I cast sitting on a shop stool, my 20lb production pot on a work bench,the splashes never come anywhere close to the pot , as it's on my far left, pot on the right. My ingots are stored on wood donnage in the corner of the shop, being in a hot dry climate, moisture is never a problem. My culls are held back until I'm ready to recharge the pot, laying on a towel in the hot sun, and added with a ladle little at a time. I always cast with a pair of heavy leather work(gauntlet style)gloves and a set of bibs over my street clothes. This hobbie can be as safe or as dangerous as "we" make it. Again I learn more and more on this forum. I appreciate all the help you guys have afforded me. Thanks

1bilmr59

09-13-2013, 11:22 PM

Good Info, Thanks For all the post

cpaspr

12-31-2013, 11:57 PM

First of all, Happy New Year's to everyone!

I've been fortunate, in that I've never had water get under the surface of the lead. I first cast bullets as a teenager, back in the 70s. My dad gave me his old pot, molds and about 30# of lead a couple of years ago, and I got everything working again (it hadn't been used since I last cast in 1976).

I've been water quenching my bullets, but I use a 3# coffee can about half full of water, which sits about a foot off the floor, well below the level of the workbench. I float a piece of plywood on the top of the water and drop my bullets from the mold onto the plywood, and let them roll off into the water, so there is no splash. An alternative method I read about elsewhere was to stretch a towel loosely over the quench bucket with a 1-2" hole cut in the center. Drop the bullets on the towel and they roll down and drop through the hole into the water, and the towel catches any resulting splashes.

I have an electric skillet I bought from a thrift store specifically for casting and reloading. Initially for wax lubing, but I've found that it works well for dumping my quenched bullets into when I'm done casting after I've drained the water from the can. Dump all the bullets, good, rejects, sprue, whatever that was in the water, into the skillet and turn it on simmer for half an hour or so with the lid off. Then let them air cool. Sort the duds for remelting and save the good ones.

Also, and I guess I just lucked into this one, I always preheat any 1# ingots I'm going to add to the pot by setting them on the top for a while first. I was just preheating them to make them melt faster without dropping the pot temp. I never realized I was drying out any incidental condensation at the same time.

FAsmus

01-02-2014, 07:59 PM

Gentlemen;

Here in Wyoming it is cold. - Time to build inventory!

I cast with a old cut-down turkey-cooker. This outfit is too hot to run much (if at all) during the warm months so until it cools down to 20 or less it stands idle.

I water-quench from the mold so when I start the water is quite cool. Most times the temperature in my unheated casting shed is well below freezing.

When I first began heat-treating from the mold I thought I might have to add some glycol to the water to keep it from freezing. This has not proven to be the case for even when I cast at "0" or so it never gets more than a crust of ice at the edges of the steel quench bucket.

The deal for this thread is getting water below the surface of molten lead: Since I cast with an open flame what I've run into is the cold ingots collecting condensation as I pass them through the combustion gases on the way to the pot. This has not caused any explosive problems but at times it sure has "crackled" in a most scary way!

My cure is to place the cold ingots alongside the pot until they get well above 200 degrees before adding them to the melt.

Good evening,
Forrest

dkf

01-08-2014, 05:05 PM

I have been known to put wet water dropped bullets (didn't pass my QC) into a hot pot from time. A sizzle and a pop or two is all you get.

This year I was pouring babbit bearing journals. Already poured the bottom half, cleaned it up and prepped it to pour the top half. I prehetated th ecap to about 2 hundred degrees before putting it on but forgot to heat the shaft and caps up more. (go to 350+ deg F preheat before pouring) My mistake resulted in a babbit geyser coming out of pour hole. There was residual moisture on the shaft (sweat) that did not get burned off because I forgot to the final preheat. If I was not wearing glass, gloves, heavy long sleeve shirt and pants I would have gotten burned.

RogerDat

01-13-2014, 06:21 PM

After reading this thread I have to say I have gleaned much valuable information. Never considered what a hot spill would do on concrete, or how cold tools might get condensation that would get thrust into the melt.

Seems to me as with many other activities that carry some safety risks to be managed consistent safe routine is a good starting point, followed by knowing the "why" you do it that way. Several of the incidents reported seemed to stem from something being different in a way that normal routine that would be generally safe did not take into account. Temperature being different, older oxidized ingots, material melted being more porous etc. I would say that is where knowing the why is important to combine with a assessment of what is different this time.

Adding steps to the routine such as pre-heat of materials or water drop barriers to splashing that several have mentioned seems a good idea too. I'm probably going to start looking for a counter top oven appliance at thrift stores or garage sales.

Having and using the safety equipment seems a must too. I hate it when something goes wrong and the item I should have been using is hanging on the wall or sitting on a shelf. Most times when what I'm doing bites me in the butt it's because something different or unexpected enters the mix or I'm doing something trivial so I don't fully set up to do the job. A couple of news papers when touch up painting instead of a full drop cloth would be my most recent example. Dropped the can lid. Cleaning that up took a lot longer than the drop cloth would have.

Greebe

02-27-2014, 02:36 PM

I say that water getting into the pot while the lead is molten can lead to an eruption. I say this because it happened to me this summer when I was casting bullets. I was being impatient and hastily dried off some water quenched bullets and dropped them in the pot. I can tell you that I got a lot of lead that blew out some landing on my arm which did not feel all that great.8-)

I can see how water dripped on top would do nothing as it just goes to steam, but I think the water in the lube groves must have been carried down to the bottom of the pot with the bullets and then turned to steam sending lead flying.

It does happen as I can attest to.

FAsmus

02-28-2014, 10:46 AM

Jonk;

Far out!

Forrest

tazman

03-01-2014, 07:00 PM

After 40 years of working in a heat treat department that used pots of lead as a heating element, I believe I am well acquainted with things that go pop and things that explode in molten lead.
We always had some newbie who thought it would be fun to see the old guy jump when he threw his snowball at the lead pot. What newbie didn't know was that snowball would sink just below the surface and go off like a bomb. Twice I had over half the lead come out of that pot because some dummy tried to be cute. It held 1200 lbs when full. Fortunately I was able to doge both times as most of it went straight up.
Mostly I was able to catch them at it before they actually threw the snowball. Those 2 times the newbie ended up draped over a work skid wearing bruises. When the boss found out what had happened he decided it was just self defense and didn't even write me up for punching the guy.

The point being, water and molten lead don't mix well. You may get away with it a few times but sooner or later if you get careless it will bite you.

FAsmus

03-01-2014, 09:47 PM

Jonk;

Wow!

Forrest

stu206

03-05-2014, 01:42 PM

As a Cable Splicer trained in Lead work, using a Lead Pot to Wipe a Sleeve making joints out of Wiping Solder and Lead. Any water into the pot of 800 degree Lead meant the pot would blow and all the lead goes all over, over the tent if it was raining or all over you if you were in the way of the flying lead. Voice of experience as it has happened to me. I am very careful arround hot lead, in the pot while casting or melting lead to start casting. Don't wear rings, metal watches etc, as hot lead will stick to such items and burn like its on fire instantly. While casting I always drop the sprue into a towel, and the cast bullet into another towel, maybe sometime I will try the way of dropping the cast into water to cool fast. Vern

midnight

06-26-2014, 11:46 AM

Yesterday I learned something about the tinsel fairy. I melt and clean my scrap lead in one of Davy Crockett's cut off propane cylinder pots over a 54,000 BTU fish boiler. I was cleaning some very soft lead from lead pipes so I could extrude it into wire for swaging. I melted a lot of smaller pieces & had about 4 in of melt in the pot. I then started melting some 4 foot sections of 1 ½ in pipe. The pipe had been stored dry for years and I was sure it was dry. WRONG !! It wasn't a very powerful tinsel fairy but I still have several pounds of lead to scrape off my well weathered deck. Treat all pipe like a rifle barrel. Don't point it at anything you don't want to destroy.

Bob

youngmman

06-26-2014, 12:07 PM

I can only talk from experience and have been casting as long as most of any here. Early on I was unfortunate enough to have spilled some water in a molten pot of lead. I don't know if I would call it an explosion but lead flew everywhere but luckily I escaped being burned. The amount was more than a couple of drops or "dew" on an ingot which I doubt would do nothing more than sizzle for a second or two. Call it what you want but I think the issue is the amount of water it takes to cause a genuine problem.

Chris C

07-10-2016, 08:03 PM

Back in the 70's, when I was casting for my .45 cal muzzleloader, I was using recycled wheel weights. They were mighty dirty and figured I should at least wash all the oil and junk off them. Even though I understood the "tinsel fairy" problem, I often put them in the pot before they were absolutely dry. Needless to say, I learned my lesson. Now, some 45 years later when I'm getting serious about reloading and casting my own bullets, I've a good recollection of the dreaded tinsel fairy. I know that water spilled on top of a pot of molten lead will do nothing but produce steam. But I'm danged sure that none of my lead has any hidden moisture in it so when I submerge it in the pot it won't blow sky-high.

VeryOldGuy

07-24-2016, 02:46 PM

But it works wonders for hardening!

Surfdog

01-23-2017, 02:58 AM

Great thread. Now I understand how the tinsel fairy came to visit me...hopefully for the first and last time!

Surfdog

shoot-n-lead

01-23-2017, 03:16 AM

This really has nothing to do with the intent of the thread...but it IS interesting.

Wet finger in molten lead. (https://youtu.be/yTOCAd2QhGg)

ARMetals

01-31-2017, 01:11 PM

This really has nothing to do with the intent of the thread...but it IS interesting.

Wet finger in molten lead. (https://youtu.be/yTOCAd2QhGg)

That's just about the craziest thing I've ever seen them do.

DanInCt

05-03-2021, 10:14 PM

I was melting down some stink pipe and one of them had some water in it.. and well.. always wear protective equipment. For my initial melting built a ledge by my pot ( old line man pots for splicing) and let the lead preheat. I do the same with ingots to before they hit that shimmering pool of gold

David todd

11-08-2021, 10:51 AM

I have always been super careful while casting, my father taught me to always preheat my lead to get any moisture off it.
I cast out in my driveway these days, and often have a bit of rain or snow coming down , which doesn't seem to be an issue wit the pots, but I put the ingots on a hotplate before putting them into the pots, never had an issue.
I did see on facebook the other day where a fella escaped serious injury but had a very big visit from the "tinsel fairy"!:holysheep
it was not good, but he was wearing glasses so escaped being blinded. he figured it was because he didn't preheat his ingot, likely had some ice or water on it for sure!
David

bimus

11-08-2021, 02:11 PM

Casting outside with my son one year under a shade tree when a large green grass hopper fell in and emptied the pot it was a good thing we cast standing and had room to move back .

Winger Ed.

11-08-2021, 04:30 PM

This really has nothing to do with the intent of the thread...but it IS interesting.

Wet finger in molten lead. (https://youtu.be/yTOCAd2QhGg)

I've heard about that, but never got drunk enough to try it.

M-Tecs

11-08-2021, 05:12 PM

I used to do large smelts outside. I had about a 1,000 pounds melted when a sudden cloud burst came thru with very heavy rain. Lots of steam and sizzle but no tinsel fairly even with large heavy hard rain drops. The water has to get under the surface before it becomes an issue.

BJK

11-08-2021, 05:16 PM

Oh, who hasn't done that! Only wusses wet their digits first! And they didn't leave their fingers in it for any length of time either!

Me, that's who. I'd rather watch other people do it. I don't drink beer so you'll never hear, "Here, hold my beer and watch this!", come out of my lips.

slim1836

11-08-2021, 06:10 PM

ebb

11-08-2021, 09:09 PM

My next door neighbor gave me a 5 gallon bucket 2/3s full of fishing weights that he found while metal detecting on the beach. They had been in his garage for at least a year out of the weather. About half way through the bucket I carefully placed a large egg sinker in the pot and about 15 seconds later had an explosion that blew lead all over the shop, on me and my clothes. I can only guess but its an educated one, that in the hole through the center of the egg sinker sand had trapped water in the middle and it got hot enough to turn to steam and made the mess. I will in the future run a drill bit through the center of all the egg sinkers I can not see through.

Winger Ed.

11-08-2021, 09:41 PM

. I will in the future run a drill bit through the center of all the egg sinkers I can not see through.

When I suspect internal moisture, I put them in a cold pot and let them heat up with it.
That way, the water will boil out way before the Lead melts, and not make a sudden steam explosion.

Murphy

11-09-2021, 12:02 AM

~The Tinsel Fairy~

Pre-heat everything, including ingots you are about to add to a molten pot of alloy. Double this if you're in a high humidity part of the world. Cast in an area you have a bit of room to run if need be. That's all I have to say about that.

Murphy

rbuck351

11-09-2021, 02:30 PM

I have had visits from the tinsel fairy twice. The first was when I was unaware of the issue and dropped a couple of bullets back in the pot that had just been pulled from the water drop. The second time I was putting reject boolets back in the pot that had been cast several days before but some had voids in the bottom and one apparently had a bit of water in a void. Now all lead going in melted lead gets pre heated.
I think putting used fishing weights, especially deep water weights in hot lead without preheating very well, could get ugly. The high pressure from being deep in water will drive water into tiny voids where it wouldn't normally get to.
The tinsel fairy has emptied 10lb Lee pots on me twice and I don't want it to happen again. Also I am fairly sure you won't have time to run even if you were already standing and had the room. The tinsel fairy is very fast.

M-Tecs

11-09-2021, 02:39 PM

Also I am fairly sure you won't have time to run even if you were already standing and had the room. The tinsel fairy is very fast.

That is the understatement of the year.

Tokarev

11-10-2021, 12:12 PM

Drops of rain falling into the pot evaporate upon contact with the surface.
But I once had a blonde moment of misfortune and stuck a slightly moist fork into the pot, to stir. The molten alloy protested wildly and sprayed me with drops. Nothing catastrophic though.

kevin c

11-10-2021, 12:37 PM

Starting out, the unheated ingots I added to the melt, stored without environmental control, bubbled ominously but didn’t explode. Blind beginner’s luck. Now the only lead going into the melt that doesn’t first sit on the pot rim are culls, fresh sprues, and molten lead from the feeder pot. Metal tools also get a cautious preheat before taking the plunge.

Folks often point out that the volume expansion of water from liquid to steam is 1600 fold. That’s the change at 212°. At 700-800°, it’s more like 2000 fold.

Casting at night under lights on my deck, moths falling into the melt will roast, but no tinsel fairly visits. Maybe they’re not as heavy or dense as grasshoppers.

ebb

11-17-2021, 09:33 PM

Winger Ed i had no idea that after that much time there could be moisture still in the sinkers.

Winger Ed.

11-17-2021, 10:22 PM

Winger Ed i had no idea that after that much time there could be moisture still in the sinkers.

Oh yeah.
If it's trapped in there--- like herpes,,,, its for life.

I've even had some exciting results by dropping cold Lead into the pot on a cool & humid day.

Mal Paso

11-20-2021, 09:06 PM

Propane has a lot of hydrogen which produces water as it burns which saturate the combustion gases. Passing cold lead through those humid gases will condense water on the lead. If that water gets trapped under molten lead you will have a steam explosion.

I've seen the wet hand in molten lead trick. If the steam has a path to the surface, you might get a free pass but I wouldn't count on it.

Check out pictures of steam engines that exploded, everything above the wheels gone.

ulk77more

11-22-2021, 06:01 PM

interesting thing, I had a small burp come out of my caster one day, and realized that I had put a piece of lead in and my hand had been sweaty, never did that again., that can be expected, but here is what I did not expect yesterday. I put a piece of carnuba wax in (size of a pea)and let it melt then started mixing it in to flux the lead a little bit. had a minor eruption and fireball. quite spectacular. not as spectacular as you guys "tinsel fairy" but good enough to ruin a pair of shoes and socks, spash the wall and put quite a bit on the table, unlike a violent eruption from water, this was more of a splash then an explosion. any ideas why?

Tar Heel

11-23-2021, 05:41 PM

Just remember: The Dragon Bites!

Charlie Horse

01-04-2024, 06:50 PM

When I was a kid I melted lead in a test tube over the stove then dropped the whole thing into a pan of water in our kitchen sink. The underwater explosion formed into a curious little lead sponge-shape. This was long before it became common practice to wear safety eyewear in hazardous situations.

Dancing Bear

01-04-2024, 08:22 PM

I used to pour lead hammers for the machine shop guys in the factory I worked in. #5, $10 and #20. I replenished the pot with ingots I made from the used hammers, approximately $40 each. One day one of the ingots had condensation on the bottom and when I slipped the ingot into the pot it blew. I was covered from my face shield down to about my waist in what you guys are calling tinsel. I looked like the tin man. I was photographed by the safety officer and even awarded a "WISE OWL" pin for wearing the proper gear.

Rapier

01-05-2024, 10:40 AM

A hollow battery terminal kept outside in a scrap bucket is like a bomb waiting to go off for a caster. Heavy enough to sink instantly and holds about an ounce of ice/water.
My experience with one after a freezing night with a prior day of blowing drizzling rain was bad enough to stop me from ever using any battery parts again. A 100# pot of high temprature alloy vaporized, totally, in a mili second.
The explosion decorated the tree tops, tree trunks, the brick side of the house, the house roof, me, the yard. The explosion was so violent it blew lead into; the bricks, the bark of trees, the house screens, the fabric of my levies and jacket I was wearing. As I was not wearing a hat, I got a high and tight GI haircut afterwards, to get the lead out of my hair down to my scalp. Lucky to be wearing glasses and leather gloves as my face and ears got a lead alloy bath.
To this day, 40 years later, I still find it hard to believe how much area 100#s of molten alloy can cover under steam pressure. The full 100# pot was left without one bit of lead in it.