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joeb33050
07-27-2006, 08:37 AM
I want to get a BP muzzle loading rifle for shooting at 50 and 100 yards.
I'm thinking about a Zouave because of the minie ball and no patch needed.
Can I buy minie balls?
I'm also thinking about a Hawken, particularly a TC hawken, because there are aftermarket barrels available that fit the gun. Are patches available?
I don't want anyting non-traditional such as sabots or in-line gun or laser anything.
I'm looking for simple and no/few tricks to get started. I'm looking at a Pedersoli/Gibbs but need to get some experience first.
I know I need a
short starter
nipple wrench
powder measurer thing, adjustable
powder
bullets
caps
grease
What else do I need?
Thanks;
joe b.

omgb
07-27-2006, 08:55 AM
Joe, it sounds as if you'd like to try this out but don't want to have to mortgage the home to do it. I think if you go the Zouave rout you will be disappointed. They are difficult guns to shoot well. Given the very crude sights, the nature of Minnie balls etc, they take a lot of fiddling to get anything like 4" groups at 100 yards. The triggers alone on most Zouaves are really heavy running up wards of 10-15 lbs and that's on the top models like the Pedersolis.

A much better bet is to go with a Thompson Center Hawken or a Lyman Great Plains. Shopping the INTERNET for a good used one should get you one for $200 or less. Round balls are available all over the place. Patches are easily made simply from pillow ticking. Load powder, place greased patch cloth over the muzzle, start the ball, cut the surplus patching off with a pocket knife, finish loading the ball, cap and fire. Simple. If you want, pre cut and lubed patches are available where ever you buy caps and powder.

You will need a powder flask, nipple wrench, cleaning jag, powder measure for sure. Optional are a separate delrin cleaning rod (much nicer to use than the wood ram rod that comes with the rifle) a patch puller, a ball puller and a capper.

The T/C Hawken is a compromise gun, that is, its rifling is such that it shoots heavy minnies or round balls pretty good. The GP rifle is a round ball gun. Both are capable of 3" or better groups at 100 yards and both have set triggers and adjustable sights.

Now all of that being said, if you wanted to go flint...I've got a spare Lyman carbine that I could let go for $200 including the original box and some extra flints. It's not a steal but it's a fair price for a spotless gun. Honestly though, unless you want a flinter for the "magic of it all" or because your local hunting laws require it, I'd go caplock and not look back.

mparks
07-27-2006, 08:59 AM
IMO, get a used T/C Hawken or Renegade. Lifetime warrenty and they are going cheap on the used market since everybody is into plastic stocked inlines that come in a bubble pack now-a-days.

.50 cal is easiest to get stuff for.

Shooting stuff:
balls
short starter maybe. I don't use one.
powder measure.
patches. pre-lubed, pre-cut are readily available)
powder. Pyrodex RS is easy to find but Black is traditional.
caps

Cleaning stuff:
patch jag
patch worm for when the aformentioned slips and leaves a patch in the breech.:)
old t-shirt or whatever to cut into cleaning patches
I like T/C bore butter for the bore and any type of oil for the exterior.

You really need to get a book or read up on the net about the basics. The above is what I use but everyone has their own ideas of what is best.

When I started the Dixie Gun Works catalog was the greatest reading material ever. Sounds like you'd like it if you lean to the traditional side. That would be a good place to get minnie balls and Zouaves.

shooter575
07-27-2006, 09:36 AM
Getting a military rifled musket to shoot well is a bunch more work than getting a PRB rifle to shoot.That said I think they are a lot more fun once all that stuff is figured out.The italian repops are made mostley for reinactors that just shoot blanks. The locks,sights need work.The Dixie minnes I have seen are junk.Some of them were too hard of lead.Most had casting flaws.There are a couple guys making good minnes.At 10-12 minnes to the pound shipping will add up.You will probley need to cast your own.But aint that why we are here :)

versifier
07-27-2006, 01:49 PM
IMO, get a used T/C Hawken or Renegade. Lifetime warrenty and they are going cheap on the used market since everybody is into plastic stocked inlines that come in a bubble pack now-a-days.

It doesn't really matter what the caliber is, it's the T/C lock and action that matters. You can always upgrade your Hawken or Renegade barrel with a super acurate Green Mtn. drop-in of whatever size tickles your fancy for either slugs or prb's, (not an option with a Lyman or other brands). T/C's stand up very well under hard use and in my not very humble opinion, they are the best comercially made locks available today. T/C or Fox Ridge (their custom shop) also sells a great peep sight for Hawkens and Renegades, and Williams makes a really good one, too. Either is a much, much better way to go than the open rear sight mounted halfway up the barrel. For target shooting, I might be inclined to go with the Williams as you can get a selection of aperture sizes and they are easier to adjust, but for hunting I remove the small apertures anyway for a better field of view and the advantage of keeping both eyes open for depth perception on moving game.

You have a choice of PRB's, MaxiBalls, MaxiHunters, REAL's, or sabots (they are very accurate and easier on your shoulder for practice, plus you'll very likely already have some moulds for the boolits to put in them - .44 for .50, and .44 or .45 for .54 - T/C sells inexpensive bulk sabots). Plus there are all kinds of other boolits commercially made, with a greater selection for .50 cal than others. If you choose PRB's, cast your own as they will be much more consistant (and accurate) than the commercially swaged ones. You'll have to experiment a little with patch thicknesses and maybe ball sizes to see what your rifle likes best. I generally use Pyrodex R/S in my .54's as it is more readily available and more consistant batch-to-batch than bp.

If you contact them at T/C, they will send you a copy of the manual that comes with their traditional m/l's, with load data from .45 to 12Ga. 603-233-2333 or manuals@tcarms.com

Supplies:
Short starter (especially for target shooting and tight patches)
Capper (very handy to have), caps
Spare nipple, nipple wrench (T/C sells a tool that has wrench and wedge pin puller all-in-one)
Powder measure, lots of small plastic vials for pre-measured charges
Ball puller, patch worm, cleaning jag
Large cleaning patches, BP Solvent, oil, Q-tips, old toothbrush
Boolits or sabots & boolits
Bore Butter or similar lube for MaxiBalls/MaxiHunters
Balls, patches, patch lube
T/C also makes a T-handle that screws onto your ramrod to make it easier to grab onto for cleaning and range use.
Those little compressed air thingys for blowing your charge or blowing a ball that you seated without charging first are really handy, too. Finding out the hard way is no fun......

joeb33050
07-28-2006, 07:09 AM
Thanks for the help and advice. I bid $140 on a CVA 50 caliber Hawken in "very good" condition, and won it. I'm surprised. Sunday we'll be bringing grandkids to the Ft. Lauderdale airport, and I'll get to Bass Pro Shop for the supplies you've recommended. This might not be the best rifle, but for $140 it's hard to get burnt.
I'll keep you up to date.
Thanks;
joe b.

mooman76
07-28-2006, 12:21 PM
They sell a starter kit for BP and it will have most of the things you need to get you started!

versifier
07-28-2006, 06:47 PM
I'm not too enthused about your choice, but it will let you learn the basics. At that point, you will be a little more experienced and the above advice might come in handy.

joeb33050
08-03-2006, 06:12 AM
I'm expecting the CVA Hawken any day now. Bought a pound of Pyrodex RS = FFG, box of #11 caps, short starter, box of .490" balls, set of TC lubed patches .018" thick ticking, and a capper.
Yesterday at the range I talked to the local BP wizard, who looked up his loads for his 50 caliber CVA Hawken and said I had the right balls and patches, that Pyrodex is sort of obsolete-teplaced by triple 7, and that his loads were 30 grains at 25 yards, 45 grains at 50 yards.
This doesn't seem like much powder. Is this right?
Thanks;
joe b.

mparks
08-03-2006, 08:15 AM
I'm expecting the CVA Hawken any day now. Bought a pound of Pyrodex RS = FFG, box of #11 caps, short starter, box of .490" balls, set of TC lubed patches .018" thick ticking, and a capper.
Yesterday at the range I talked to the local BP wizard, who looked up his loads for his 50 caliber CVA Hawken and said I had the right balls and patches, that Pyrodex is sort of obsolete-teplaced by triple 7, and that his loads were 30 grains at 25 yards, 45 grains at 50 yards.
This doesn't seem like much powder. Is this right?
Thanks;
joe b.

If he is using a black powder measure and quoting you volume of his charges than those are very light target loads. Hunting charges are going to be 70+ grains in a .50.

windwalker
08-03-2006, 08:37 AM
versifier you said It doesn't really matter what the caliber is, it's the T/C lock and action that matters. You can always upgrade your Hawken or Renegade barrel with a super acurate Green Mtn. drop-in of whatever size tickles your fancy for either slugs or prb's, (not an option with a Lyman or other brands). whats rong with the lyman grate plains hunter with 1in 32 twist they shoot minis very accuratley.
bernie:-D

waksupi
08-03-2006, 08:50 AM
Pyrodex will push a ball out of the bore, but accuracy will most likely suck. Stick with real black powder.
Any charge of BP that will get a ball to the target, is enough. However, a ML, like any other rifle, will have one load it prefers. I believe you should find this load, and shoot it all the time. I see people on the range shooting varying loads, for different distances. And I have never seen one of them , finish anywhere near the top.

KCSO
08-03-2006, 09:13 AM
Start at 70 grains of Black and work up til you get the best group. Then adjust yur sights and use that load. Then when you go hunting you will know exactly where the ball is going to go. It doesn't take a big load to kill a deer or even a buffalo. 80 grains of FFg will shoot through a buff broadside and is not a bad load to shoot on the range. Practice with what you hunt with if possible. If you don't hunt at all start a little lower and just go for the most accurate. With that twist I would expext peak accuracy somewhere in the 70 gr range. Don't forget to try different patch combinations and lubes in your search for the one hole group, and make sure the breech on the rifle is tight before you start. If the barrel will move at all in the brreech accuracy will be erratic at best.

StarMetal
08-03-2006, 11:10 AM
Waksupi,

I know you're a dyed in the wool hardcore BP user. I'm not, so with that said only thing I own at the present in BP guns are an inline TC in 50 cal and a Ruger Old Army Stainless. Lets start with the Ruger. With Pyrodex and Lymans old hollow base conical meant for the 1858 Remington it will just about rival most anyone on the forum 1911 groups at 25 yards. One of the most accurate revolvers I've ever seen or owned. Not so with BP. As for the TC inline, I've shot it with BP, Pyrodex, Pyrodex Select, and Triple 777. I can honestly say that BP didn't out shoot those other powders, but nor did they the BP. Reason I got started on Pyrodex? The availiability of BP being hard to get and since I moved to TN, in this area that I'm in, it's NON-EXISTANT!!!! because of regulations to store and sell it. I would prefer it. Why? Especially if I just said Pyrodex was darn good. Well, because I like it. I like the blue/white cloud of smoke, I like the smell, I like knowing I'm using the real McCoy. Darn I grew up with the stuff. From the first time my best friend and I bought it at the age of 14 to make rockets, cannons, and bombs...I fell in love with it. Some of my first guns were cap n ball revolvers.

Joe

versifier
08-03-2006, 01:11 PM
whats rong with the lyman grate plains hunter with 1in 32 twist they shoot minis very accuratley.
bernie:-D

Accuracy is not the biggest issue here. That has more to do with the barrel, which should be easily replacable on a well-designed m/l rifle, (and also the sights and fit of the stock). I am talking about quality of workmanship, durability, and reliability, which all has to do with the lock.
One of the main reasons why I'm so gung-ho for T/C's is the years I spent (late 70's through 80's) working on other peoples' guns. Most anything on the market will work for occasional shooting, which, in truth, is all most owners of m/l's want them for, and that's fine as far as it goes. Now, there are a number of traditional custom locks that are of excellent to absolutely phenominal craftsmanship, but they are generally very expensive, some up into the many hundreds of dollars. Some are designed specifically for historical accuracy and others are built for real use by serious and/or competetive shooters. Of the comercially available locks that you don't have to take out a second mortgage or hand over your first born to pay for, T/C's traditional locks stand up better under regular use - weekly shooting, competitive shooting, hundreds of rounds a month shooting - than the others.

Every year, right around now, the rifles would start to come in to be worked on for fall hunting. Not counting the elbows that never bothered to clean them (whose guns I would not work on), there were the others with worn or broken parts to be replaced, and very soon I began to notice something about them. Less than 10% of the rifles that came to me needing work were T/C's, and of them, they mostly just needed new springs and nipples. On the others, I was constantly tearing down locks, replacing major parts. Common problems were poor heat treating of bearing surfaces of moving parts that wore much too quickly, inferior castings that broke under what I would consider casual use (ten or twenty rounds/year fired), stripped screws and shoddy workmanship courtesy of Bubbasky at minimum wage on the assembly line at the factory in East Slobovia or somewhere in Asia.

Trying to get the replacement parts for them was usually difficult, (weeks or months waiting), sometimes impossible, (though in all fairness the people at Lyman in particular were pretty good that way). A phone call to T/C and I had whatever I needed in two days. No hassles, no backorders, no runaround, and many repairs were covered under their warranty so it involved just shipping it off and getting it back within two weeks all fixed.

What it comes right down to for me is this: if you're going to shoot it a lot, buy a good one and swear by it instead of at it. If you want a reliable hunting or target rifle that will last through more seasons than you will see, either go custom or go Thompson. With many traditional models now discontinued in favor of inlines, if you come upon a used T/C in good condition at a reasonable price, BUY IT. Don't piss and moan and whine about it until someone else comes along and snaps it up, JUST BUY IT. Properly cared for like any other well made firearm it will last for generations. It will continue to appreciate in value over time, which will not be the case with the cheaply made *** imports. Not every good deal turns out that way in the long run. Saving $50 today might be buying you twenty or thirty years of headaches. Is it worth it?

Maven
08-03-2006, 07:24 PM
All, but joeb in particular: (1) Versifier is absolutely correct about T/C quality and service. Indeed, last week I called them about a replacement Patridge sight for a Renegade and had a "used" one* in my hand 2 days later. (2) I was shooting my .490" Green Mt. (1:66" twist) last week with 70gr. Pyro. RS @ 50yd. and got excellent accuracy (always have with Pyrodex). I also tried T/C and Lyman Maxi-Balls (240 & 220gr. resp.) and Lee R.E.A.L.'s in the original .45cal bbl. (T/C) also @ 50 yds. (from a rest) with the same 70gr. Pyro. RS and got m.o.a. accuracy. Three days ago I shot my .495" Mowrey rifle offhand @ 50 yds. also with 70gr. Pyro. RS and was extremely pleased with the results. Said rifle is made for offhand shooting and balances very well. (3) In blind testing I'm willing to bet there is NO difference in accuracy produced by either BP or Pyro., controlling for granulation. Will there be a difference in velocity between various brands of BP and Pyro.? You bet! Will there also be a difference in the amount of fouling between these? Of course! (4) I've also used Pyro. P & RS and Goi FFFg in my Marlin #336 with CB's and found NO difference in accuracy that could be attributed to the propellant I used. (5) All of the RB's and Maxi-/R.E.A.L.'s I used were home-made from Pb. (6) CVA Hawkens were quite popular years ago. The now defunct BP faction (which is what they were, but that's another story) of our club had several and used them to good effect.

P.S. to joeb: I sent you a PM last week: Did you receive it?


*T/C no longer manufactures the Patridge/Renegade front sight. I had to ask the T/C operator for a used one and she transferred my call to a gunsmith who works on Renegades. He had no trouble locating a Patridge sight, which looked new to me. Btw, T/C still makes the bead/Hawken front sight.

waksupi
08-03-2006, 08:41 PM
Well, my only personal experience with Pyrodex, is with patched round balls. Accuracy was terrible. Sometimes the ball would go where it was intended. Other times, it would kind of go poop, and you would see the ball exit the muzzle, and hit the ground maybe twenty yards ahead of me. So, I don't care for it.

44man
08-03-2006, 10:02 PM
The Zouave is very accurate only if the Minnie fits the bore. We have shot them out to 200 meters very well but the moulds had to be lapped out. You want a nice fit in the bore.
They are picky about powder charges too. Too much powder with a thin skirt will blow the skirt when it exits the muzzle. There are thicker skirt Minnie's that take a heavier charge. Doesn't matter much about the load though, 50 gr's of black will do any deer in fast. Darn things are great fun too. They are very easy to shoot offhand, seems like a perfect balance and fit.

joeb33050
08-04-2006, 05:43 AM
Thanks for the offer, but percussion is hard enough for me.
joe b.


Now all of that being said, if you wanted to go flint...I've got a spare Lyman carbine that I could let go for $200 including the original box and some extra flints. It's not a steal but it's a fair price for a spotless gun. Honestly though, unless you want a flinter for the "magic of it all" or because your local hunting laws require it, I'd go caplock and not look back.

joeb33050
08-04-2006, 05:49 AM
Maven;
Yes, I got your PM. Between that and this you're well on the way to writing that "INTRO TO MUZZLELOADING" that we need for the CBA book.
I'm going to get my feet wet with the CVA Hawken, which is supposed to be here Monday. Meanwhile I'll be looking for a used T/C Hawken in good shape. There seems to be general agreement that T/C is the best way to go, and I certainly don't want to have to take a lock apart.
Thanks to all for the help and advice, I'll shoot next Wed and let you know what happens.
joe b.



All, but joeb in particular: (1) Versifier is absolutely correct about T/C quality and service. Indeed, last week I called them about a replacement Patridge sight for a Renegade and had a "used" one* in my hand 2 days later. (2) I was shooting my .490" Green Mt. (1:66" twist) last week with 70gr. Pyro. RS @ 50yd. and got excellent accuracy (always have with Pyrodex). I also tried T/C and Lyman Maxi-Balls (240 & 220gr. resp.) and Lee R.E.A.L.'s in the original .45cal bbl. (T/C) also @ 50 yds. (from a rest) with the same 70gr. Pyro. RS and got m.o.a. accuracy. Three days ago I shot my .495" Mowrey rifle offhand @ 50 yds. also with 70gr. Pyro. RS and was extremely pleased with the results. Said rifle is made for offhand shooting and balances very well. (3) In blind testing I'm willing to bet there is NO difference in accuracy produced by either BP or Pyro., controlling for granulation. Will there be a difference in velocity between various brands of BP and Pyro.? You bet! Will there also be a difference in the amount of fouling between these? Of course! (4) I've also used Pyro. P & RS and Goi FFFg in my Marlin #336 with CB's and found NO difference in accuracy that could be attributed to the propellant I used. (5) All of the RB's and Maxi-/R.E.A.L.'s I used were home-made from Pb. (6) CVA Hawkens were quite popular years ago. The now defunct BP faction (which is what they were, but that's another story) of our club had several and used them to good effect.

P.S. to joeb: I sent you a PM last week: Did you receive it?


*T/C no longer manufactures the Patridge/Renegade front sight. I had to ask the T/C operator for a used one and she transferred my call to a gunsmith who works on Renegades. He had no trouble locating a Patridge sight, which looked new to me. Btw, T/C still makes the bead/Hawken front sight.

Maven
08-04-2006, 11:38 AM
joeb, I forgot to mention it, but I see that you've discovered the CVA & T/C pre-cut patches on your own. They are quite good and a bit more convenient than buying fabric by the yard (assuming you can find the correct thickness) and cutting them by hand. If they shoot well, be sure to mic them (uncompressed) so you'll know what fabric to look for in the future. Also, if the patch burns through (usually referred to as a "blown" patch), put an unlubed/dry patch on top of the powder charge (70gr. is plenty for 50yd. work) and then seat a patched ball on top of it. Btw, patch lube can be saliva, a commercial BP bore cleaner such as "Moose Milk" (excellent and available through Winchester Sutler), T/C "Bore Butter," etc. You can also make moose milk from 1 part water to 5-7 parts water soluble machining oil with a capful of Mr. Clean/Lestoil added. It will also clean your bbl. Once you seat the patched (and lubed) ball and BEFORE you cap the nipple, swab the bore with a dry patch. Do this every time you load for max. accuracy. Hope this helps!

kenjuudo
08-05-2006, 08:29 AM
Maven,You have an original Mowrey or the Deer Creek version?

jim

joeb33050
08-05-2006, 08:50 AM
Yeterday I recorded weights of Pyrodex RS for various settings on a Lyman 55 measure, for use with the .50 CVA Hawken. I also figured out how the capper works.
I remember some talk about static and blown up measures with plastic hoppers. Is it safe to throw charges with the Lyman 55 with plastic hopper and Pyrodex RS?
Did one ever blow up, or is that a rumor. Is that the right way to spell rumor? It doesn't look right. Roumor?, no,rumour? looking better, roumour?
Thanks;
joe b.

Maven
08-05-2006, 01:38 PM
kenjuudo & joeb, The Mowrey isn't original, but I'm not sure who actually produced it: Mowrey Gun Works in TX maybe. I purchased it from Mountain State Muzzleloading in the '90's. While it is a joy to shoot offhand, the workmanship left something to be desired. To wit, the ramrod pipes were cold soldered and came loose and the dovetail for the rear sight was not at 90 deg. to the barrel/bore. I also didn't care for the German silver front sight, which didn't match the notch on the rear one, and promptly replaced it with a T/C Patridge sight. On the other hand, the bbl. is 1" in diameter and extremely accurate once I found the right patch thickness (.018", uncompressed).

joeb, It IS "rumor" or "rumour" if you're English or Canadian. As for the use of BP or Pyrodex in Lyman #55 as well as other brands, I don't think there's much empirical evidence supporting the contention that it's dangerous practice. If static is a concern (in Fla.?), wipe the inside of the hopper with one of the anti-static sheets you throw in the clothes dryer. But this begs the question, why use a powder measure at all? I.e., BP and Pyrodex are notoriously inefficient propellants so a grain or two in either direction will make no difference in performance @ 50yd. Adjustable BP/Pyro. measures, e.g., T/C and Uncle Mikes, work very well and are easier to use (and more portable) than the Lyman, et al. If you need to calibrate them for an exact charge, e.g., 70gr., you can do so with your powder scale and calculator (to establish the arith. mean & SD).

kenjuudo
08-05-2006, 03:54 PM
Maven,
If it was new in the 90's then it came from Deer Creek Products, Waldron IN. They bought out Mowrey in the 80's I believe. They are up the road from me about four miles, don't kick the cats and they will usually treat ya right on a case of powder, always got a rack of seconds to pick through cheap.

jim

gregg
08-05-2006, 10:02 PM
versifier

I'm with Versifier 110 % I have seen a TC barrel shoot well.
But I seen way more shoot bad. Same with the rest.
Get serious get a new Barrel.
Your right CVA good place to start. I did the same.
Did not keep it long and let someone else have fun with
it.

joeb33050
08-10-2006, 06:08 AM
I shot this CVA Hawken yesterday with 50-60 grains of Pyrodex RS, .490" round balls, TC pillow ticking pre-lubed patches and Remington #11 caps. All loads fired, none misfired. Accuracy at 25 yards was OK, trouble at 50 yards with a loose sight and cleaning questions. So:
When or how often should I clean? The ball/patch start ?firm?, I wouldn't want to put a much thicker patch down the bore-it's tight. After 10 shots it's still tight and no problem putting the patched ball down the bore. But I felt guilty not cleaning, so I cleaned.
I know I'm supposed to use BP only, I've used BP with ~ 3 grains of smokeless and it keeps the gun clean so I can shoot forever without cleaning. Can I duplex this rifle with ~3 grains of black?
I pour the powder into a funnel on a 3' 3/8" copper tube, so it goes to the bottom of the barrel. I tried breathing through the tube, a la BP puffing to keep fouling soft. Does anyone else do this?
I sometimes shoot BP cartridge pushing a wet patch through the bore after each shot and shooting with the wet bore-it works fine. Should I push a wet patch through the bore above the loaded ball before shooting?
After I got home I cleaned with hot wate and oiled everything. Do I need to take the lock off the stock and clean it? The barrel comes out easy with the wedge/key out.
Thanks;
joe b.

joeb33050
08-10-2006, 06:11 AM
Oh, threw charges with a Lyman 55 into a pill bottle into the funnel. The Lyman 55 didn't blow up, yet.
joe b.

Maven
08-10-2006, 08:59 AM
joeb, (1) For target work, a tighter ball/patch combo. is good. The T/C patches are correct, so long as they're not "blown" or severely frayed after firing. (2) After you seat the patched ball (Make sure you put ~40lbs. pressure on them when they're all the way home.) and before capping, swab the bore with a cleaning patch dampened with BP solvent (lots of types to choose from, including home-brews) and then run a dry patch through it to remove any moisture. Do this after every shot.* (3) If you study the construction of BP bbls., you'll notice a direct channel from the nipple or touchhole in a flintlock, to the atmosphere. I.e., pressure is directed OUTWARD, toward YOU. Ergo, NO DUPLEXING EVER in these arms! (4) I'm sure you can use powder measures made for smokeless [powder], but they can be a PITA to set up and a few grains in either direction will make no meaningful difference in velocity or accuracy. Volumetric BP/Pyro. measures are inexpensive and easily obtained, as are Lee dippers: They work and are a hell of a lot easier to use than the Ly. #55.


*I no longer use the ramrod that came with my rifles. You can purchase a stainless steel one + muzzle guard from Dixie, Midway, MidSouth, et al., but make sure the cleaning jags, etc., fit those threads.

44man
08-10-2006, 09:29 AM
Keep ALL smokeless away from a muzzle loader unless you have the Savage which is designed for it. Even less then 3 gr's will up pressures.
Don't blow through your powder charging tube, it will gather moisture, make powder stick in it and can ruin some of the powder on the way into the bore.
If you are using a good lube like Young Country you do not ever have to wipe the bore until done for the day. If a ball gets a little hard to push down, just add some extra lube to the next patch and it will clear it up.
You can wipe between shots but don't use a soaked patch. Take a patch and run a line of cleaner or water from corner to corner, stack in a jar until full and let sit a while. Each patch will be just damp enough to wipe without leaving the bore wet.
The proper ball-patch fit should be hard to start. You should have to really smack the short starter hard to get the ball in the muzzle. ( Don't beat on it, one hard smack is what you want.) If you take a large piece of patch material and lube it, start a ball and pull it back out with the material, you should see the weave of the cloth engraved in the ball FROM THE BOTTOMS OF THE RIFLING GROOVES.
I would be shooting a .495 ball and .020" patches out of that gun if the bore measures .500 and the rifling is .010" deep. For shallower rifling, reduce the patch thickness to .012 to .015".
I would also work to 90 gr's of FFG or the same VOLUME of Pryrocrap.
Go to the fabric store with a micrometer and buy denim in different thicknesses to test. Make sure you COMPRESS the material when measuring. Store bought patches vary too much in thickness from bag to bag and year to year. Pre lubed patches are junk, some of the lubes are nothing but some light oil and won't soften fouling, they make it worse. I used to buy TC .020" unlubed patches and found they changed to .012" without changing the number on the package. Your accuracy will go south with every purchase of patches. Buy material and a good lube!
Track of the Wolf sells good bulk patch material too. Do not overlook how important the patch is, it is not there for looks. Don't fall into the trap of EASY loading! The tight ball and patch will go down easy if started right.
Do NOT wipe the bore after loading, the bore condition is set from the lubed patch which softened the fouling and lubed the bore. Wiping will only push a wad of fouling against the ball and you can't control it. If it dries out before the next shot, you have wasted the shot. You will be changing the slipperyness of the bore from shot to shot and slippery is not good for accuracy. Neither is a hard, dry fouling or a plug of it on the ball.
You are getting WAY too anal!

omgb
08-10-2006, 10:06 AM
Nice to hear back from you. Please allow me to add my $.02:


1. Don't use smokeless in any amount with a ML. You are inviting a serious accident.

2. Pyrodex will not build up fouling nor do you need to blow tube it .... really, I promise you, you don't.

3. The first shot fired will usually not go the same place the other shots will. It's just the nature of BP muzzle loaders. It will be hunting close, but not target close if you catch my drift.

4. The drop tube and measured charges thing is admirable but way too much trouble for the little accuracy gain you might get. Just volume measure your charges right there in the field. It's easy, it works well and it keeps things simple.

( I have a target at home fired from 50 yards using a Lyman Great Plains rifle and BP where I've got 5 shots in a clover leaf with one flyer, ...the first shot of course. I used a CVA measure tube.)

5. If you think the ball is getting tough to load after a few shots, just run a damp patch down the bore, then a dry patch and you should be all set. The first shot from that now clean bore will most likely be high and to one side.

6. Pyrodex can deliver some excellent accuracy. There is no reason to feel guilty for using it. I prefer BP and can get it cheaply enough in my neck of the woods so that's what I use. Still, I've shot many many many lbs of Pyrodex over the years. It's best quality is that it does not accumulate fouling like BP.
Thus, your loading problems should not include a bore that is too fouled to load. FWIW, I can't imagine that your duplex load is gaining you anything and more than likely is causing your groups to open up. Try just plain Pyrodex and see if I'm not right.

Now, one more practical caveat. The nipple on a cap lock is the weak link in shooter safety. It directs hot gasses at plasma temperatures back toward your face. Normally, with a good nipple, the hammer contains and redirects this flash to the side. However, nipples wear and as they do the volume of gas permitted to escape the barrel and come back at the shooter increases. Eventually, it becomes a hazard. With BP and the subs, you can see this happening as the process is slow, thus you have lots of time to change nipples. In fact, you should be able to shoot 500 to 1,000 rounds with cheap nipples and not have a problem. With lined, more expensive-alloy nipples, you can double or triple that figure. When you duplex however, you throw a new factor into the mix that just might get you "F%&*$@" up bou coup quick. Most smokeless burns hotter than BP or its substitutes and at much higher pressures. So when you add it, in any amount, you increase pressure and temperatures. This will burn out a nipple much quicker with the potential for sudden and unexpected failure a real concern. The moral of the story? Don't duplex.

Now, could you duplex with some 4F under that Pyrodex? Yes, but there would be no advantage in doing so. Pyrodex burns cleanly as it is and the little fouling it leaves is soft and never hard. Thus 4F will only add a fouling agent to the gun that is not now present.

Try the straight Pyrodex deal before you start getting your panties up in a wad about patching. It may be that you need to get different material but I'll bet you don't.

One more thing, Hornady makes these little plastic wad cups in 50 cal. They are only available directly from Hornady as far as I know. I have had excellent results using these. They do not require patching nor do they require lube when using Pyrodex. These cups are not at all like the "wonder wads" sold back in the late 70s early 80s. Those tended to shift foreword when the rifle was carried or moved around and could result in an air gap between charge and ball which of course, is a BP no-no of the first order. These Hornady cups are designed not to do that and after firing 100 of them, I can say with certainty that they do not move until fired. If you are still having accuracy problems after doing what I and others have recommended, I'd give these a try before I went down to the yardage store and started micing cloth. If these increased your accuracy, then I would try different patches as the patch material was obviously a major factor in your accuracy performance.

I hope this helps. Take care and keep us updated.

StarMetal
08-10-2006, 11:30 AM
Oldfeller and Jumptrap know about a secret clarkm type test that ole Starmetal did with a certain smokeless powder and a muzzle loader. Let's just say shooting smokeless is like saying driving your car over 100 mph will result in a disaster.....meaning not necessarily so. Certainly by all mean don't do it, unless you have that special Savage. By the way I read about that Savage and it's made of a tough alloy able to withstand pressures up in the 110,000 psi range. Savage wasn't taking any chances I guess, although I think they took a big one as is.

DON"T SHOOT SMOKELESS IN MUZZLELOADERS

Joe

slughammer
08-10-2006, 07:29 PM
I shot this CVA Hawken yesterday with 50-60 grains of Pyrodex RS, .490" round balls, TC pillow ticking pre-lubed patches and Remington #11 caps. All loads fired, none misfired. Accuracy at 25 yards was OK, trouble at 50 yards with a loose sight and cleaning questions..........
............
After I got home I cleaned with hot wate and oiled everything. Do I need to take the lock off the stock and clean it? The barrel comes out easy with the wedge/key out.
Thanks;
joe b.

Bench shooting at 25 yards sounds like a waste of ball, patch and powder. I have a Flintlock CVA St. Louis Hawken and at 50 yards there is no trouble putting them into a 3" black. My load is 85gr of 3FG or 90gr of 2FG, GOEX. Patches are Ox-Yoke prelubed; I have .010, .015 & .020 thickness.

You should take the lock out. Clean it with a tooth brush and Hoppes Black Powder Lube. Then blast with WD 40 and compressed air. Then add a little gun oil and put the lock back on. Probably more important on a poorly inletted flintlock; but if you don't take it off, how will you know if its ok?

If your CVA has the 1 in 60 twist it should stabilize and shoot round balls very well.

44man
08-11-2006, 10:16 AM
Slug is right except I would NEVER use WD-40. It will not neutralize black powder fouling very well. I have had bare steel rust with the crap and it will dry and gum up works. Use Birchwood-Casey Sheath to lightly coat all steel. In 55 years of shooting, it is the best thing I have ever used.
And slug, you should get cloverleafs at 50 yd's from the bench. And less then 3" at 100. Methinks you have too small of a ball!
I know, everyone uses the TC method to load easy. Back then in Ohio with Bill Large and Dan Kindig, they would use a small hole gauge in the bore, and sell me a ball mould the same size. A .500 bore used a .500 ball and the .450 bore used a .450 ball, a .540 bore used a .540 ball, all with a .010" patch. I have since gone to .005" smaller balls and thicker patches for hunting but for accuracy, the bore size balls were king.
A .490, .440, .530 ball is too small for accuracy. Too hard to start if larger? What kind of whimps do we have today? Can't anyone SMACK a short starter? I watched guys at shoots pound the loads in with a hammer, come on, take your hand and HIT the starter. I see guys break a pile of cement blocks or bricks with their hand and nobody can start a little ball! I'm ashamed of all of you!

joeb33050
08-11-2006, 03:53 PM
I took the lock out and cleaned it in hot soapy water with a toothbrush. The water got some dirty, not horrible. Hot rinse, the lock dried, then Marvel Mystery Oil.
I find that a 70 grain measure of Black filled with Pyrodex weighs 58 grains, so I'm told. Then I modified the Lyman 55 chart, I was shooting 59 and then 67 grain equivalents of Pyro. Means that a BP measure set on "70" holds 58 grains of Pyrodex. ?? Correct?
These loads kicked smartly, I'll try more, but there's plenty of crack in the report.
I found a ?ring? of fouling in the bore just above where the ball seated, I felt it while cleaning.
I'm not using the powder tube next week, I'll fling the powder in the muzzle in a funnel.
I hammer the ball/patch in with the rubber end of my mallet.
I could get a bigger ball in, wonder if the patch won't rip.
How about a ?.520 ball and no patch?"
The local wizards say they've all gone to 40 caliber RB, ~30-40 grains of 777 for accurate shooting to 100 yards. Counter to what you guys say.
There's no place to get BP or a good variety of accessories in the Miami Ft. Lauderdale area, or at least I can't find it.
Thanks for the help;
joe b.

Maven
08-11-2006, 05:02 PM
joeb, According to Hodgdon's literature, Pyrodex is 20% less dense than BP. Ergo, 70gr. by volume should theoretically weigh 56gr. Your 58gr. is close enough, and probably reflects slight differences in retained moisture.

As for cleaning the lock, I do this maybe 1x/yr. unless I manage to spill bore solvent on it. Also, if the action is a bit rough, you can smooth the inner surface of the lock plate with a Cratex wheel in a Dremel tool (need one with a speed control or rig up a dimmer switch to control rpm's). The bad news is that you have to disassemble the lock to get at the plate.

I get fouling in the same place that you do, even with Pyro. which is why I'll use a wet, but not dripping, patch periodically, followed by dry patches. Trust me, you don't want moisture in the ignition channel. Also, you want to maintain a consistent bbl. condition for peak accuracy, so it doesn't hurt to dry patch the bbl. after seating the ball. (Don't worry about pushing fouling down on top of the RB either as it makes no difference if you do.) Btw, this is what Dutch Schoultz recommends and he was a champion BP shooter.

Pyro. v. BP v. 777: No need to apologize for your choice of propellant. We don't exactly have an abundance of choices up here either. The local Gander Mt. has some stuff, but they're geared mostly to in-lines and I don't think they carry powder of any kind. Besides, the supposed differences in accuracy between BP and Pyro. are anecdotal, not empirical. To wit, have you read of a carefully designed double blind experiment comparing them? I haven't, nor do I know of any.

Seating a RB sans patch: You can probably hammer a .520" RB downbore, but it will be distorted and it may leave lead where you don't want it. On the other hand, a slightly larger RB will be engraved by the rifling and may produce high accuracy until the bore fouls and then you no longer have a consistent bbl. condition.

RB + patch: I use .018" - .020" material (dense weave, calico print or undyed, etc.)* that I buy at a fabric store. The store personnel will be most attentive once you tell them what you're looking for. It also puts their minds at ease when they learn what "the weirdo with the micrometer" wants. I too have to use a plastic mallet with my ball starter (saves my palm) when using material of the above thickness. Try this stuff first and a .495" RB if .018" patches don't give the performance you're seeking.


*One of the members of our gun club is a competive flintlock shooter. He uses teflon-coated patching regularly. If I see him at tonight's meeting, I'll ask him where he gets it and PM you with that info.

44man
08-12-2006, 03:23 PM
Sorry for calling some whimps. The plastic hammer is fine but use ONE whack. Don't tap it in or the ball will get deformed. I machine the end of my brass short starters to fit the ball and sprue perfectly so as not to flatten the ball.
Do not use lead without the patch because there is no lube to soften fouling or prevent leading. If the patch was not good, it would not have been used for hundreds of years.

joeb33050
08-13-2006, 05:21 AM
"The Muzzle Loading Cap Lock Rifle" by Ned Roberts arrived yesterday and I've been reading furiously.
He mentions duplex charging with smokeless using Dupont Bulk Smokeless, there seems to be no agreement on a modern powder for duplex loading cartridge rifles today except that we stay away from the very fase ex bullseye, and use SR4759, IMR3031, etc.
I know I'll have to try this at some point.
He also mentions dropping the powder through a tube to the breech end of the barrel, and blowing/breathing through the barrel-breathe into the muzzle through the nipple. Softens the fouling.
The general sense is that a very tight patch/ball isn't required.
I like the book; his "Breech Loading Single Shot Match Rifle, with Waters, started me and many others on the Single Shot road.
joe b.

waksupi
08-13-2006, 10:53 AM
Joe, you had better read that a bit closer. I do not think Roberts ever used a smokeless powder for a kicker. His reference to Dupont refered to black powder, I believe. Regardless, the rifles he was shooting were generally heavy bench rifles, with a lot more steel to them, than anything most of us have. I believe someone mentioned it before, but DO NOT USE ANY TYPE OF SMOKELESS POWDER IN A MUZZLELOADER! The inlines aren't in that class, and I have no idea what you can do with those.

StarMetal
08-13-2006, 10:56 AM
Thanks Ric, the inlines were what I was talking about. That's all I'll mention for safety reasons.

Joe

versifier
08-13-2006, 12:49 PM
Duplex loading in a bp cartridge rifle and in a m/l are two very different things. The brass case seals the chamber and permits higher pressures. Personally, I think if you want to get better performance in a cartridge rifle than you can get with bp, you can use (surprise) SMOKELESS. If you aren't happy with the power level of your .44mag with max loads, what do you do? Do you use overpressure loads, or do you get yourself a .454Casull or other larger case? We aren't talking rocket science here. Duplex loads in m/l are an accident waiting to happen. They are not designed to contain the pressure levels or the pressure spikes that can happen when using unsuitable propellants. You are setting off a powder charge in a HOLLOW TUBE with YOUR FACE at one end. If you want to make it into the Darwin Awards, there are many more creative ways of going about it that don't risk the lives of bystanders. If it's "not clean enough" or "not powerful enough" with bp or subs without adding a smokeless powder, the shooter has an attitude that is frankly dangerous around m/l's and should stick to cartridges (at the other end of the firing line from where my kids and I are shooting, thankyouverymuch.) There is all kinds of useless and dangerous information floating around that has been published by fools (often well intentioned, but still fools). Anyone who regularly dabbles in unsafe practices is sooner or later going to run into either the law of avarages or Murphy's Law and end up a statistic. I have no problem with such people removing themselves from the gene pool, but too often they take others with them, and I do have a problem with that.

StarMetal
08-13-2006, 01:20 PM
Verse,

You're wrong with that type of attitude (about what you consider unsafe practices). Alot of the technology we have today is from people taking risks....of the unknown. You know, and I know you know this, that scientist were divided on what would happen when they set that first nuclear bomb off. The naysayer ones said it would start a chain reaction of the atoms in the atmosphere and set the whole world off. Well, we now know that didn't happen. But they weren't sure. So let's get back to smokeless in ..ooo aaah errr bp guns. Look where it's led. Where you say? Savage's smokeless muzzleloader. Yeah, before you say it's a different rifle then the regular bp inlines even.....where do you think they come up with the idea? Hmmmm? Pull it out of the clear blue? I doubt it. Look at Mr Diesel when he invented the diesel engine, damn near blew himself up. Fool, shouldn't have been messing with dangerous stuff like that you say huh? Not so.

Sorry if it seems I'm coming down hard on you, I'm not, I'm really trying to make you see another point of view. Alot of things today were brought to light by taking risks. But, one has to take them safely. The two fellows that know about my experiment didn't say: Boy what an ******* you are. Damn Joe, You're an idiot. My goodness fool, what were you thinking. They both were intrigued and interested and amazed at the results.

If those ancestors really would have believed the world was flat and if kept sailing towards the horizon out of sea to fall off into who knows where, the world would have never gotten discovered.

So I guess you think Clarkm is a fool for blowing up firearms to find their weaknesses?

Joe

omgb
08-13-2006, 01:54 PM
I've got Robert's book too. He was using Dupont Bulk, a powder designed to be substituted for BP at a time when BP and smokeless technologies were transitioning. If he had access to either 777 or Pyrodex I seriously doubt if he would have continued in experimenting with duplex loads in a ML. All of the advantages gained were achieved with 777 and Pyrodex.

Feel free to experiment but you've got to know that its a risk with very few rewards. The outcome is pretty well documented and there is not much more to be learned on the subject nor is there much to be gained by re-investigating it. Well, that's my opinion any way and we all know what they are worth. I don't pass jugement on you. But what you're doing is not my idea of reasonable risk so I for one, intend to leave that sort of fun to others.

I might add that in the process of developing atomic power, accidents ruined the lives of several hundred men and women over the course of the last 5 decades. The old AEC did some hinky things out there in St. George Utah (not to mention the Pacific) and as a result, the accident/injury/death rate may be even higher. Was it worth it? I think so. Would I want to try all of that stuff over again just in case somebody missed soemthing? Not in your life.:(

44man
08-13-2006, 04:00 PM
I agree, a lot of experiments were deadly. Some continue to kill to this day. I will follow the rules learned the hard way. Nothing more can be learned by playing with fire! It burns and it hurts!

StarMetal
08-13-2006, 06:31 PM
The powder I was experimenting with wasn't around when that DuPont bulk smokeless came out, in fact the rounds this powder was made for weren't even invented yet. I did my experiments, got data, then quit. I didn't push it. Far as I could tell I could have kept pushing it, but I didn't. Will I use this for shooting? NO I've always been a safe experimenter, even when I was a kid. I don't know where I got the habit from, surely not Dad. Now later on as I went through industrial jobs I learned even more safety. You don't work around me without wiring steamhoses, airhoses, etc., nor walking around with a rag sticking out of your pockets, or not wearing your safety glasses and hearing protection, or checking vessels for flamables, oxygen, inert gases, etc., before you work on them or enter them.....you get the picture. Oh forgot my favorite, maintenance definately doesn't work on any electrical powered equipment when I'm the plant operator without locking out and tagging out the breaker boxes for such equipment. Every maintenance man that will be working on that equipment will have his personal lock on the lockout tab, along with mine, the operator. No maintenance men ever got hurt because of me.

Joe

versifier
08-13-2006, 08:45 PM
Joe, it's one thing to be carefully experimenting in an overengineered barrel under controlled conditions, but it's quite another thing to be playing with duplex loads with a used m/l that was of questionable quality when it was brand new, then subjected to unknown abuses over time by an unknown number of owners. Now it comes into the hands of a newby who by his own admission does not yet understand the relationships of ball size to patch size to bore size, nor has enough experience to begin to have an understanding of patch lubes. Everyone has to learn and to do that you have to start somewhere, but a little more experience is in order before that kind of experiment is even considered. No, Joe, that is an accident waiting to happen, and the circumstances clearly dictated to me that I advise extreme caution in the given situation. At least a season of experimenting with bp and subs, prbs and slugs, different lubes, etc. I am not against experimenting, even taking some unavoidable risks on occasion, but I have enough experience along those lines to realize when it is a risk, and how to minimize it when necessary. I spend a lot of time in the real world teaching people how to handle guns and bows safely, how to hunt safely, and how to reload safely. When I realize someone knows just enough to be dangerous, I advise caution and time to learn enough to be safe.

StarMetal
08-13-2006, 09:16 PM
versifier,

I agree with you, what you said about the newbie and duplex loads and such. I've fortunately have had alot of years of experience. I've fooled with duplex smokeless loads, but frankly to tell you the truth, alot of hassle. I want something easier to load.

Before I'd take on a questionable experiment, I'd find out all the information I could about it. Talk to those that attempted to do it, or have done it and failed, etc. If possible I'd always try a small scale attempt first.

Had some friends in Colorado that were kind of crazy, machines, silencers, bombs, you know what I mean. They made this homemade plastic explosive one time. I won't discuss the ingredients. One of the friends, the milder one of the group, was a photographer, went with them to the mtns to set this plastic explosive off. They found an old abandoned mining shed made of wood covered with corrigated steel siding. They set it in there. My photographer friend said he got back 150 yard and behind a big boulder, to observe and take pictures. Well they weren't any pictures to be taken. He said at the blast a piece of corrigate (4 foot x 8 foot went sailing over his head like a flying saucer. He hit the deck. Well I asked how much of this plastic explosive did so and so set off. The answer was 4 pounds. MY GOD I said. First off I told him I wouldn't have gone with them, that I would have tried to talk him out of doing it, or if he was to use a much much smaller example. That's me, that's how I think, how I would have approached it. Personaly I'd never made the stuff. The photographer quit hanging with them. I also told him that 150 yards away wasn't far enough for 4 pound of any explosive.

Anyways my experiment was entirely different then a duplex load.

Joe

44man
08-14-2006, 10:11 PM
Blowing into the barrel will soften fouling but is not looked upon with favor at shoots. They do not like to see someones head over a muzzle. But don't blow through a drop tube.
I have achieved good accuracy with a smaller ball but a THICK patch must be used. These are sometimes very hard to find. Some old timers used buckskin for a patch. This requires a very small ball and if you don't believe me, try to load your ball with some.
The ball and patch can't have a gap between the bottom of the grooves and them or gas will leak, cut the patch and ruin accuracy. The patch has to provide lube, a gas seal and the weave imbedded into the ball provides rotational grip. This is much stronger then a bare ball on the steel.
You can't get a gas seal if the patch is not compressed into the ball in the bottom of the grooves. Sorry, but thin patches and small balls don't work.
My friend and I were sitting in the coffee shop in Cle Hopkins airport. He had just asked when I would be ready to shoot. I said I don't have any balls, the waitress had just stepped up and heard me. Did I get some funny looks! We both laughed so hard she left.

waksupi
08-14-2006, 10:41 PM
There was a recent conversation about blowing down a barrel on the Muzzleloader Magazine forum. General consensus was, most old timers blow down them, and consider it unsafe to not do so. Gotta watch the pilgrims who have a misfire, and want to blow down the bore to see if they loaded it. Darwinism once again rearing it's head.
As to buckskin patches, I took some thin flank buckskin, braintanned, and tried it out for patching. It was thin enough, I had no problem loading the rifles, and accuracy was good. Of course, I don't load as tight as 44 and some others. If I can't start it with my thumb, I don't want to shoot it. Probably bothers some of the people I beat at the shoots.

44man
08-15-2006, 12:12 PM
A grain of truth there! It doesn't take me more then one quick pop to start a ball. Can't get carried away and if too hard to start, they won't shoot better. I used to watch guys beat the balls in with a hammer. Then others would CLEAN between shots. I have seen everything that can be done and I beat them all. I took home so many prizes and grocerys that they changed the system of giving out awards so even the worst shooter got something to take home. Kind of like a handicap award deal. Shoot bad, don't improve but get awarded for the effort. Liberal crap if I ever seen it. Kind of like never finding a job and let the taxpayers support you. I have not been back since! I could have stuffed toilet paper in my bore, made a boom and threw the ball down range and still got prizes. It turned guys dead lazy and removed the competition from the whole shoot.
This was at Fairfax Rod And Gun In VA. Bunch of rich people that could not take defeat.
Waksupi, it sounds to me that you are a better shot then all of the rest. I applaud you for it. But could not your groups be tighter if the ball fit better?

omgb
08-15-2006, 12:45 PM
This is the result of using Hornady plastic patches and .490 round balls. Thumb pressure seated them. The two to the right were me getting the sights on target. The rest speaks for itself. You can't get results like this if you beat the heck out of the ball. It must be round and have a trimmed sprue if it is going to group. This is an old and very nasty Lyman GP rifle that I had just fire lapped. There was no cleaning between shots and no lube was used. Powder was GOEX 2F

omgb
08-15-2006, 12:48 PM
Here are the fired plastic patches. These are designed so that they do not move in the barrel before shooting. Note the petals have raised dimples. These grip the bore and the ball so that everything stays put, not at all like the old plastic wads from the late 70s early 80s.

44man
08-15-2006, 04:34 PM
.54 home made Hawken, 5 shots at 50 yd's with my method.

44man
08-15-2006, 04:43 PM
You NEVER beat the heck out of a ball. The short starter, long starter and rod end must conform to the ball. The sprue does NOT have to be trimmed. The proper fit just takes one hard pop to enter the bore.
How many shots can be taken with the plastic wad before you can't get a ball in? Where is the lube to soften fouling. I can get my groups after firing 200 rounds without cleaning. Sorry, you can't convince me!

omgb
08-15-2006, 07:05 PM
" The sprue does NOT have to be trimmed." Well, if not trimmed, it should be oriented the same way each time. That's my experience. if your is diffferent, then by all means, stick with it.

"How many shots can be taken with the plastic wad before you can't get a ball in? Where is the lube to soften fouling." I really don't know. I shot ten rounds and then wiped the barrel JIC. It may have gone on longer or it may have crapped out on the next round. I really don't know. There is no lube per se so I would imagine that one is not going to shoot 20 rounds let alone 200 without having a fouling problem.

I mentioned the patches simply because they worked when I tried them. There is a specific use for them that has nothing to do with what the average shooter is interested in. These are designed for shooting hardened balls in cases where one wants a lot of penetration. (as in busting through the back or shoulder of a wild boar or a mud encrusted moose) Frankly, I am not too sure I buy all of that but here's the deal, if you want to, you can shoot balls made from WW that are water dropped and still get the accuracy I got in the photo.

I figured that if the original poster was trying to get to know his gun, this might be a cheap way to figure out what kind of accuracy he can expect when he gets the right combination of patch, ball and lube.

I'm not saying these are the best way to get accuracy, but they do work without any real fuss at all. Just an option, not an endorsement.:castmine:

44man
08-15-2006, 08:18 PM
I always put the sprue straight out in front and my starter has a depression for it. I see your point about the plastic wad. Might be good for a beginner.
I can keep shooting all day because I use a good lube and if a ball gets a little hard to push down, I add a little more lube to the next patch which clears up the problem for a lot more shots. I can go all day without ever wiping the bore even though I use a tight combo.

waksupi
08-15-2006, 09:16 PM
I'd experimented with different ball/patch combinations over the years. My biggest limitation any more, is my eyes. Since we don't shoot paper in the local BP competitions, I can usually get the gongs corraled fairly well. Many of us older shooters have went to smoothbores. Why have the rear sight, when we can't see them? In my exerience, the gain in usable accuracy wasn't worth the tighter combination. I do notice there is more recoil, and no doubt higher velocity, for the same powder charge with a tighter ball and patch. I just prefer not to need a short starter, and few of the older shooters here use them. Personal preference. If we all liked the same thing, we'd all be married to the same woman.

44man
08-17-2006, 12:30 AM
That woman comment was the scaryest thing I ever read!

joeb33050
08-17-2006, 10:59 AM
First, I kept cleaning the gun and finally looked in the barrel with a flashlight and it was RUSTY, I cleaned with Naval Jelly, got all the rust out but it's pitted.
Shot it yesterday with 70 gr equiv Pyrodex RS, .490" ball, TC .018" patch and Rem #11 cap. After each shot I breathed down the barrel, slowly. Didn't clean in ~45 shots.
The gun shoots, ~2" at 25 yards, about 4" at 50 yards, with no experiments.
But, I'm running out of eyes. The trifocals and the open sights are making it hard to impossible to aim right. When I call a shot, it's in there.
I need either a scope or a set of pertures front and rear.
After shooting the barrel cleaned easily, just a few patches, the third wet patch was almost wite, then solvent.
I won't report for a while, going to the goldn west soon.
Thanks;
joe b.

omgb
08-17-2006, 11:46 AM
I haven't forgotten you. I bagged up ten of those cups and some loading instructions. They should ahve gone out yesterday but I missed the mail man. I'll get them out today.

omgb
08-17-2006, 11:49 AM
If you decide that you want to fire-lap that barrel to help clean up some of the pitted roughness, let me know. For the cost of postage and a little to off-set the lapping paste, I will fix you up with 20 lapping rounds. All you need to do is clean and dry the barrel. Then shoot these using a light 30 grain charge, cleaning and drying between shots and it should clean up very nicely. You would be amazed at the difference it can make in a mass-produced barrel, esp. one that has had some rust damage. The target I posted was post-fire lapping. Prior to that if I hit a pie pan at 50 yards I was doing well.

44man
08-17-2006, 12:31 PM
Don't use any smokeless solvent in the BP barrel. Clean with plain water, Birchwood-Casey BP solvent, Simple Green mixed 50-50 with water, Anti Freeze mixed 50-50 or any other type made for BP. Once clean it will rust fast so run hot water through it, dry it and coat the bore good with something that will prevent rust. (The anti freeze mix is the best to keep rust down, but make sure you still oil.) LPS-3 works good as does Birchwood Sheath, Ballistol, M-Pro 7 CLP or even a good gun oil. Some guys use patch lube but some will dry out hard and some can absorb moisture.
One of the better cleaners to remove fouling and carbon is M-Pro 7 solvent. It will clean it out of the pores of the steel. Use a bronze brush with it.
Pyrocrap can rust a barrel faster then BP! Make sure you get it CLEAN.

waksupi
08-17-2006, 09:44 PM
Joe, I don't know as how blowing down the barrel would have any benefit with Pyroducks. As far as I know, it is a smokeless powder, and I can't see the moisture being a benefit.

chuebner
08-17-2006, 11:17 PM
There's no place to get BP or a good variety of accessories in the Miami Ft. Lauderdale area, or at least I can't find it.
Thanks for the help;
joe b.

Hey Joe,

Have you tried the Outdoor World in Dania for blackpowder? I know they carry GOEX in real blackpowder plus the Hodgdons line of 777 and Pyrodex. Their selection of muzzleloading accessories is not too bad either. Generally I get all my supplies from Thunder Ridge or Track of the Wolf.

Charlie

joeb33050
08-18-2006, 08:49 AM
I'd like to try that. Please tell me where to send how much money, and I'll send it.
Thanks;
joe b.







If you decide that you want to fire-lap that barrel to help clean up some of the pitted roughness, let me know. For the cost of postage and a little to off-set the lapping paste, I will fix you up with 20 lapping rounds. All you need to do is clean and dry the barrel. Then shoot these using a light 30 grain charge, cleaning and drying between shots and it should clean up very nicely. You would be amazed at the difference it can make in a mass-produced barrel, esp. one that has had some rust damage. The target I posted was post-fire lapping. Prior to that if I hit a pie pan at 50 yards I was doing well.

joeb33050
08-18-2006, 08:51 AM
If water is a solvent for the residue, and it is, then I think tha blowing through the barrel puts some water in the residue and softens it. I could be wrong, it's got to happen some day.
joe b.


Joe, I don't know as how blowing down the barrel would have any benefit with Pyroducks. As far as I know, it is a smokeless powder, and I can't see the moisture being a benefit.

joeb33050
08-18-2006, 08:53 AM
Yes, that's where I got my stuff. I didn't see BP there, but there are a lot of BP things, patches and balls and little tools and caps. I'll go again.
Thanks;
joe b.





Hey Joe,

Have you tried the Outdoor World in Dania for blackpowder? I know they carry GOEX in real blackpowder plus the Hodgdons line of 777 and Pyrodex. Their selection of muzzleloading accessories is not too bad either. Generally I get all my supplies from Thunder Ridge or Track of the Wolf.

Charlie

joeb33050
08-18-2006, 08:57 AM
It is becoming obvious that between you there's almost enough on this thread to write the article. Now I've asked for one of you to write the article and got no response. If nobody steps forward, I'm going to write it myself. Yes I will. Then you'll be sorry when you see the mistakes! Avoid the agony, volunteer now and keep me from making a fool of myself!!
joe b.

omgb
08-18-2006, 09:30 AM
Joe, I'll cast up the slugs this weekend and get them loaded up with the paste. Then I'll find out about the postage. If you don't hear from me by Monday evening, PM me ok?

waksupi
08-18-2006, 09:52 PM
Joe, I would have took a stab at it, but I am an old time traditional shooter. I would have zero imput on the inlines, that are the hot item du jour. And even we traditional shooters, approach things in different ways. So, you can write it up, take the heat, and the glory, all in one fell swoop!

44man
08-19-2006, 01:31 PM
Pyrocrap has most of the components of black powder and is NOT a smokeless powder. It is only a smokeless substitute. It is water soluble and can rust steel FAST, even faster then black, but it leaves less fouling.

StarMetal
08-19-2006, 02:37 PM
44man is right. It's not a smokeless. I think one of the key ingredients it contains to put it into the BP class is sulfur, I'm not positive about that though. It is very corrosive like 44man said, but one other attribute my friends and I have noticed is it must be pretty hot when turned into a gas because it has cut a line on my stainless Ruger Old Army on the topstrap by the cylinder gap. Other friends said it eats out the nipples real fast too. Does leave alot less fouling and does clean out with water. I think 777 is even better because it's more potent then Pyrodex and leaves even a little less fouling. I've gotten some very good results out my Ruger using it and impresse velocities.

Joe

Bad luck Bill
08-19-2006, 11:46 PM
My experience with Pyrocrap ( I agree) is that it fouled a little more than holy black, but that's in a revolver, maybe in a rifle it's different? Triple 7 is what I use if I don't have to much Goex left and want to save it for last. It's cleaner than both BP and Pyrodex. I haven't tried Swiss yet, I think I'll need to mail order it cause I have yet to see it anywhere local. Wish it was available local. Same goes for VitahVori powder or however it is spelled.

BLB.

joeb33050
10-16-2006, 06:42 AM
Joe, I'll cast up the slugs this weekend and get them loaded up with the paste. Then I'll find out about the postage. If you don't hear from me by Monday evening, PM me ok?
Just back from vacation.
Did I miss the message?
joe b.

joeb33050
10-19-2006, 01:11 PM
I shot that CVA Hawken with the pitted barrel again yesterday.
70 grain equivalent of Pyrodex RS FFG
Rem cap
TC greased .015 patch
.490 bought ball
I load it and then run a wet water paper towel patch on a brush down and up a couple of times, leave the bore wet, and shoot it.
At 25 yards it shoots into ~3", with some strangers ans some series of shots touching.
I can't see the open sights very well and the gun is not at all comfortable to shoot from the bench and trifocal trouble.
Without the patching that several here recommended, it just gets harder and harder to push the ball down the bore.
It ain't great but I'm learning how to do this.
joe b.

Maven
10-19-2006, 07:57 PM
joe, BP rifles need a consistent bore condition to shoot accurately. By wetting the bbl. and leaving it wet, you're destroying consistency. (3" @ 25yds. ain't good!) Instead of using a wet paper towel, use a slightly damp patch on the bore after firing and then a dry one after seating the patched RB. Also, is it possible that a thicker (or possibly a thinner) patch is needed? Have you examined the fired patches to determine whether they're "blown, " i.e., burned through?* One last question about accuracy: Is the Pyro. RS igniting instantaneously or is there a bit of a delay between the cap firing and the main charge going off? (I had this problem today with a sealed/new can of Pyro. P.) A delay is never good for accuracy.

Btw, the rifle shouldn't be increasingly difficult to load: Are you sure you're using .490" RB's? If so, maybe a .012" patch will help (maybe with another patch over the powder charge). I've been loading 80gr. Pyro. RS with Maxi's and RB's and haven't had any loading difficulties to speak of.


*You can cure blown patches by seating a piece of hornet's nest or another patch atop the powder charge.

catboat
10-31-2006, 11:00 PM
Here's my recipe. Get a TC Renegade ($250), and then buy a Green mountain slow twist barrel for round ball ( ~ $130). I prefer .54 cal, but .50 is ok.

Shoot ~ 75-80 grains fffg witha .535 ball in the .54 or a .495 in the .50 cal.

You will be very competitive with this outfit, and have a great hunting rifle to boot.

joeb33050
11-12-2006, 01:31 PM
Here's my recipe. Get a TC Renegade ($250), and then buy a Green mountain slow twist barrel for round ball ( ~ $130). I prefer .54 cal, but .50 is ok.

Shoot ~ 75-80 grains fffg witha .535 ball in the .54 or a .495 in the .50 cal.

You will be very competitive with this outfit, and have a great hunting rifle to boot.

I've got a bid in on a Renegade, 50 caliber. The G.M. barrels seem to cost ~$220, or is there a place where I could get one for less $$$.
Is it reasonable to look for a barrel in 40 or 45 caliber, fast twist for long range heavy bullets-can I make a Gibbs out of a Renegade?
Thanks;
joe b.

joeb33050
11-16-2006, 12:25 AM
I've got a bid in on a Renegade, 50 caliber. The G.M. barrels seem to cost ~$220, or is there a place where I could get one for less $$$.
Is it reasonable to look for a barrel in 40 or 45 caliber, fast twist for long range heavy bullets-can I make a Gibbs out of a Renegade?
Thanks;
joe b.

The Renegade is on the way. First to get round balls to shoot. Again, can I make a Gibbs out of a Renegade? If GM will make the bbl., I can't see why not.
There's a device goes in the nipple hole that allows use of a primer, this seals the flash hole also. Gets you out of the platinum nipple hassle.Does anyone make these to fit a Renegade?
joe b.

Maven
11-16-2006, 10:20 AM
joeb, The device was made by a few different manufacturers over the years and did indeed fit the T/C's (Hawkens & Renegades, probably other models as well). However, it is rather a chore to unscrew the device, remove the fired [small rifle] primer, add a new one, screw the top back on, etc. Since I didn't chronograph the before v. after vels., I don't really know what effect it had. Accuracy was unaffected though. The inconvenience of it was a mark against it coupled with the fact that I had NO ignition problems using standard #11 caps in any of my Hawken's bbls.

Btw, good luck with your new Renegade! You'll find T/C's are of much better quality than the CVA + the ignition channel (nipple -> chamber) is such that reliable ignition is practically a given. Coincidentally, our blackpowder guru, whose name I sent you, found the same thing as did several of our club members.

MT Gianni
11-16-2006, 11:15 AM
I found the device to be slow to use but to give 100% ignition with pyrodex. I had a good deal on rws caps that gave 70% ignition or so and were only 2.98 per 100. I could buy primers for 13.99 a 1000. This gave me the ability to go shoot with components I used already and get good ignition when I couldn't get real BP. THis was with a TC Hawken. Gianni.

omgb
11-16-2006, 01:08 PM
Those converters (#11 to rifle primer) were designed with the use of pelletized BP subs in mind. When using granulated subs or straight BP, a number 11 cap will do the trick nicely. Blow back is minimal and as stated by others, the outright inconvenience of using the converter, especially after your hands get coated in grime and lube, outweighs any minimal advantage in velocity gained.

Your T/C is a very fine rifle. It is accurate, well-made and a pleasure to shoot. If you wanted to add another barrel and make it kind of a poor man's Gibbs it could be done. My guess is though that you will decide against it. Conicals shoot so well from a T/C that I think you may just decide to save your money and stick with what you've got. :mrgreen:

Maven
11-16-2006, 02:02 PM
ombg, Not meant to be a flame: Flame-N'-Go was one of the names the device was marketed under, but it predates pelletized Pyro. by several years. Its advantages were a sealed ignition system, which was purported to resist moisture and give higher vel. and a hotter "flame" due to the [small] rifle primer. It will, of course, work with traditional BP rifles and Pyro. pellets, but with various "quick loading" devices available, why would one pay a considerable premium for convenience? Put another way, some of my friends who own in-lines occasionally use loose powder and sometimes even patched RB's in them. However, those with traditional designs almost never use pellets in them.

omgb
11-16-2006, 02:58 PM
Of course I know you're right. I've been in the game since '74 so I should have remembered that. I think I've been reading way too much industry hype:oops: for my own good.

I teach hunter safety in Los Angeles and you would be surprised what guys drag to the range. Lots of folks by those Pyrodex and T7 pellets and use them in "Hawken-style" guns. Why? Beats the ehck outa me but they do. Personally, I've never used the pellets. I tried T7 in my Lyman GP but ignition was iffy without a priming charge of BP so why bother. Pyrodex has been good but it costs nearly twice what BP does in my neck of the woods so why use it?

Any way, thanks for the correction. In the interest of accuracy it was a good thing.

BTW, do you remember Tap -O-Cap, it let you make caps using toy caps and beer cans?

Maven
11-16-2006, 06:06 PM
omgb, Yes, Forster at one time sold them and a rotating patch cutter as well. I don't know anyone who actually used the tool to make his own caps. Speaking of which, are rolls of caps still being sold? With respect to Pyro. P & RS, I use them even though they're more expensive than BP largely because no one in the area stocks the latter. When I need a few pounds of it, I ask the BP guru at our club for it. Then too, our condo rules prohibit storing anything flammable indoors, not even mineral spirits. A case of BP would pose a real problem. However, I do keep smokeless powder on hand, but don't advertise it.

West Creek
11-16-2006, 06:30 PM
Without reading all four pages of your post - plenty of good advise. Great plaes or TC rifle in cap lock is the way I would go in your shoes for sure.

MY Advise:

1st - Use black powder - you can get real black pretty reasonable - use Wano or Kik - nothing wrong with it and shoots good. Real black poder is much easier on the cleaning than any of the substitutes out there. If you cant get black easy - email me and I will give you a couple suppliers.

2nd - use ballistol for lube and cleaner - you can even use mule snot for cleaner or just plain old hot water and soap - BUT still use ballistol - dilluted it is a good cleaner and full strength makes a good lube fo rparts and rust protection. Best part is the more you use it the more seasoned it gets in your steel and the easier the cleaning - it just gets better all the time and easier - sure makes for black powder easy to deal with - wont take you a few minutes to clean your gun adn your all done

omgb
11-16-2006, 11:05 PM
Roll caps are still made but they aren't what they used to be:(

I'm not crazy about Pyrodex. It works OK in MLs but it's a poor second to good BP in a cartridge gun. Too, if a guy is crazy enough to use an amonia based solvent to clean it up he's gonna have a hairy barrel in just a few hours.

I wish BP were easier to obtain. It really is a superlative propellant for MLs and BPCRs

As to Balistol ..... it isn't the cure-all the makers claim but, it is an excellent solvent mixed 10-1 with water. It's also a pretty fair patch lube at the same proportions.

joeb33050
11-19-2006, 09:33 AM
What conicals can I shoot in the Renegade? What mold should I buy?
I'm interested in the primer adapter thing because that would eliminate the blowback and nipple-platinum in a ReneGibbs.
Where can I buy a primer adapter thing?
I don't use BP because there's noplace to buy it, at least I can't find a place Miami and south.
The Renegade is on the way, got to get rid of the CVA, no room.
Thanks;
joe b.

Maven
11-19-2006, 10:43 AM
JoeB, My experience with conicals is limited to .45cal. The molds I have, a T/C, a Lyman and a Lee REAL all cast very well and give me excellent accuracy (3-5 touching @ 50 yds. wi. open sights) with Pyro. RS & BP when I can get it. I believe Saeco & RCBS also made conical/Maxi-Ball molds, but they're harder to find and pricey. Try some of the suggestions I've made earlier in this thread for good casting & shooting results. As for the "primer thing," I have a like-new Flame-N'-Go for small rifle primers that you can have if you PM me your address. You'll need a steel pick (dental tool is ideal) to remove the fired primers though.

P.S. I'm in the same boat you are with respect to too many rifles. I've got at least 4 that I no longer "need."

straightshooter1
11-19-2006, 02:59 PM
Great thread and lots of great advice.

I might take issue with the Zouave not being accurate. I have one I bought for about $100, used, in the 80s and someone had soldered on a higher front sight.

With patched 570 round balls and 70 grains of FF, this rifle is real accurate. I find the old style minie balls to be accurate also, but they shoot slightly lower and about 5 inches to the left of the patched ball (which shoot to point of aim at 50 yards with the lowest sight.

I have whined before that, here in UrbanSprawl (TampaBay) we can only shoot one shot at a time (none in the magazine) and all from the bench UNLESS you are shooting a muzzleloader. Then we can shoot offhand at 50 yards. Which, of course, is why I shot my MLs twice this past week.

That being said about the Zouave, a Hawken-type rifle from TC or Lyman is more accurate, IMO.

My FFL has a slightly used Zouave, a Zoli like mine, but is asking $399. For that price, I would go for a TC or Lyman. No experience with the Traditions, and Pedersolis are sort of hit or miss IMO. My Pedersoli Sharps is perfect, but I have seen MLs, especially flints, from Pedersoli that needed work to make them operate correctly.

My FFL gave me a 36 caliber TC with a cracked stock on the left side just opposite of the nipple/bolster and which had a "bullet stuck in the barrel" that they could not get out. When I dribbled a bit of FFF in after removing the nipple and fired it, much to my surprise it was a cut off ramrod driven in backwards. The set screw on the left side of the barrel just forward of the breech plug was missing and I think that accounted for the crack in the stock.

With 30 grains of FFF at 50 yards it was marvelously accurate. The set triggers are a real help in the accuracy department. I will increase the load after the stock gets glued to fix the crack.

I don't think Pyrodex is as accurate as BP and it kicks more (to me) in BPCR 45-70s. I have an older can of Clearshot, but haven't opened it yet. I have not tried the newer substitutes and may never open the Clearshot.

joeb33050
11-21-2006, 06:33 AM
Well I got the Renegade last evening and it looks very nice-but it's short. All the papers came with it including a TC book on loading BP guns. This book is dead set against using any petroleum products for lube or cleaning. Is this still the accepted wisdom? Is Ballistol a petroleum product? Thanks;
joe b.

omgb
11-21-2006, 09:28 AM
No, Balistol is not a petro chemical. It's made from trees. The warning about not using petro chemicals comes from a desire not to create hard fouling. Petro chems combine with the sulfer in BP to create a really nasty hard tar-like fouling that is the absolute devil to remove. Avoiding them is good advice.

Clean using simple hot water and dish soap. Cheap and really effective. Witht he hooked breech on that gun simply remove the barrel wedge and remove the barrel. After removing th nipple, set the breech end of the barrel in a bucket filled half way with very hot water and a teaspoon of dish soap. Take a patch and wrap it around a cleaning jag and then pump it up and down in the bore. You will feel the water flushing through the barrel. Then, change over to clean soap-free hot water and do the same again. Run a couple of dry patches through, let it sit 10 minutes or so to dry completely and then coat with either Balistol or Crisco. Wipe the exterior down with a damp rag, oil with any good gun oil, (petro based is OK here) reinstall the nipple and you're good to go. Water and BP are brothers. Nothing cleans it as well nor is anything better at removing fouling. Some guyes make their own lube using Crisco and bees wax or lamb fat and bees wax. I've used both and both are very good. The easy route is to buy some TC lube. It works well.

As to the gun being short, well, it sure points better than way and it won't hurt the shooting performance one iota.:drinks:

joeb33050
11-21-2006, 12:14 PM
No, Balistol is not a petro chemical. It's made from trees. The warning about not using petro chemicals comes from a desire not to create hard fouling. Petro chems combine with the sulfer in BP to create a really nasty hard tar-like fouling that is the absolute devil to remove. Avoiding them is good advice.

Clean using simple hot water and dish soap. Cheap and really effective. Witht he hooked breech on that gun simply remove the barrel wedge and remove the barrel. After removing th nipple, set the breech end of the barrel in a bucket filled half way with very hot water and a teaspoon of dish soap. Take a patch and wrap it around a cleaning jag and then pump it up and down in the bore. You will feel the water flushing through the barrel. Then, change over to clean soap-free hot water and do the same again. Run a couple of dry patches through, let it sit 10 minutes or so to dry completely and then coat with either Balistol or Crisco. Wipe the exterior down with a damp rag, oil with any good gun oil, (petro based is OK here) reinstall the nipple and you're good to go. Water and BP are brothers. Nothing cleans it as well nor is anything better at removing fouling. Some guyes make their own lube using Crisco and bees wax or lamb fat and bees wax. I've used both and both are very good. The easy route is to buy some TC lube. It works well.

As to the gun being short, well, it sure points better than way and it won't hurt the shooting performance one iota.:drinks:

Thanks, I'll get some crisco, I think. As to the short gun.... I have also noticed that moving the target closer to the muzzle reduces group size dramatically!! Has anyone written this up?
joe b.

straightshooter1
11-21-2006, 02:13 PM
:twisted: I have noticed that, too. But if you move it too close, the target has powder burns on it.

My solution for that is to place one target directly on top of the other, covering it completely. Fire my "group" and remove (hide) the first target, thus eliminating any powder burns.:twisted:

Take the second target to the gunshop and watch the commandos oooh and aaah. Practice a self-deprecating shrug and a "Not too bad I guess."

Enjoy the Renegade.

Bob

joeb33050
11-23-2006, 09:20 AM
Yesterday I shot the 50 caliber Renegade for the first time. At 25 yards the first five shots went into 1 5/8". I have a lot of trouble with the sights, so I was happy.
This with Pyrodex RS, Remington caps, .490" ball and TC lubed patches. I used a damp patch then a clean patch after each shot.
Then to 50 yards, adjusted sights and all was going well. Next tried shooting without wiping. As the TC book says, the bore stayed a little greasy, I could feel it as the patched ball went in. Without wiping the ball stuck at the end of the short starter travel The ball slid down with the short starter and a bit of pressure. Then the rod, and it was hard to impossible (hammer on the end of the rod) to get the ball started. After it started it went down with little resistance. This wasn't working, back to wiping.
I put masking tape on the rod to mark the proper depth, and found it impossible to always push the ball down the same distance-it varied +/- ~3/8". I push down until resistance, but can't control it better than that. May be me.
Then everything went south, balls hitting in ~12" group at 50 yards. I packed up and went home.
I cleaned the barrel with hot soapy water in a plastic pail in a bathtub, rinsed, dried, patched and found brown stuff on the patch. All over again. Brown stuff. All over again, tiny bit of brown stuff.
To follow the "no petroleum" rule, I wiped the bore with PAM, then with Bore Butter.
This morning I got a little bit of black out of the bore with Pam and a patch, not enough to worry me. Bore Butter again.
Why did it go south on me at 50, after ~35 shots? How do I fix this? If it's lead, how to get it out?
Why doesn't somebody make an adjustable rod holder thingy that can be set to stop the rod at a given column height?
I like this BPML thing, hope I can learn how to do it.
Thanks;
joe brennan

omgb
11-23-2006, 11:49 AM
Sounds like the bore got too fouled. The ball should seat at the same place with the same load each time. Maybe a 1/4" difference if any but not 3/8" hmmm. Hammering the ball down the bore is going to open groups for sure. It's funny, one doesn't hear of fouling build up with Pyrodex. Again, that's a new one on me. Don't worry about the slight brown coming from the cleaned bore. They all do it. Also, leading si not going to be a problem so don't get to thinking it is. The ball is wrapped in a cloth patch. No contact with the bore at all so leading is zip.

straightshooter1
11-23-2006, 03:57 PM
I shoot 2-3 with a patched, lubed ball, then I swab with a damp patch with the TC cleaner then with a dry patch.

I try to do everything uniformly-exactly the same for every loading. Place the patch on the muzzle, ball in the center, one tap with the short starter's knob to seat it in the muzzle, two taps on the short starter, pick up the ram rod, four strokes seats the ball, one last "gentle" tap to make sure it's all the way down.

I don't slam the ram rod on the ball, just push, push, push and the last push (which is shorter than the others).

If I feel any difference in the resistance in my procedure, after I fire that shot I swab a couple or three times with the TC cleaner and use two or three dry patches. Make sure the bore is DRY or you may have damp powder and a mess to deal with.

It sounds like the bore on yours was overly fouled as omgb said. Haven't used Pyrodex in quite a while as I don't think it is as accurate as BP so not sure about the fouling with it, but can't think of anything else it could be.

BTW, the BP suppliers (i.e. at gunshows) sell those great little bore lights that you turn on and slide down the bore so you can inspect it. Great investment! Don't forget to put a little faucet washer on to keep the light from coming on in your pocket if you buy one or you will need a supply of the batteries. If you see one of these lights, you will see how to place the washer.

Bob

twotoescharlie
11-23-2006, 09:09 PM
I use a 50-50 mixture of Murphys oil soap and neatsfoot oil, (not neatsfoot compound as it contains mineral spirits). for target shooting you can shoot all day without swabbing the bore, last ball goes down as easy as the first one. pure neatsfoot oil is available at most tack shops and is much cheaper than the neatsfoot compound at wally world. measure and shake well.
if used for hunting put a dry felt wad between the powder and the ball and patch.
have been shooting M/L since 1955 and have tried many different lubes, but have found that the MOS and neatsfoot oil lube works best for myself.


TTC

straightshooter1
11-23-2006, 09:37 PM
twotoescharlie:

I have never heard of that but being able to shoot all day without swabbing would be pretty cool. So you just lube the patch with the mixture like you'd lube it with any other lube?

twotoescharlie
11-23-2006, 09:53 PM
this stuff is commonly known as "Moose Snot", I use pre cut patches or you could use strips and cut at the muzzle. precut patches are less messy. I put my patches in a ziplock baggie and squirt some of the lube on them and work the lube into the patches adding more if needed. they don't have to be dripping wet ,just saturated. you can leave them in the baggie or put them in a container. ( I use the plastic cans that smokeless tobacco comes in) most anyone that uses it will save them for you. I have found that if left in metal containers for any length of time they have the tendensy to discolor.
I have had good luck both with smoothbores and rifles with this lube.
you might also try some with a little alcohol added as you can use less and the alcohol evaporates off.


TTC

straightshooter1
11-23-2006, 09:57 PM
Thanks, on Saturday I will try to find some neatsfoot oil. I don't know of any tack shops here, but I will find one.

Thanks again,

Bob

Slamfire
11-24-2006, 12:54 AM
Sell that silly sidelock, and git you a real live underhammer. The old Numrich replica H&A show up from time to time on auctions sites that are firearms friendl. No lock to worry about the triggerguard is the spring. The ignition is instantaneous as the nipple screws right into the barrel. The breech plug is a 5/8 x 18 bolt with the head cut off, or if you want a REALLY big bore, say 8 or 4, turn down the shank of the appropriate size bolt. Throw away the cross pin that holds the breech plug to the frame, and substitute set screws. Just loosen them and pull one barrel out, put in a different one, and tighten the screws back up. They can be as accurate as any other rifle or shotgun, many are used in chunk guns, like those used in the Alvin York shoot at Pall Mall, TN.

44man
11-24-2006, 08:55 AM
I just tested the .54 barrel on the kit I assembled for my brother in law. I had some TC lubed patches. Same problem, second shot was almost impossible to get down and I had to go up the hill for my stout ramrod with a big wooden ball on the end. From then on it needed wiped.
I got some of my Young Country lube and patch material out and didn't have to wipe anymore. If a load gets sticky, I just add a little more lube to the next patch and it clears it up.
You just have to experiment with lubes, some work, some don't.

joeb33050
11-25-2006, 11:59 AM
Thanks, on Saturday I will try to find some neatsfoot oil. I don't know of any tack shops here, but I will find one.

Thanks again,

Bob

What is a neat? How many feet do they have? How do they get the oil out of the foot? Must the neat die? Inquiring minds....
I clean my renegade every day, no more light brown stuff.
I tried to adjust the triggers per instructions, screwed the little screw in all the way, it never clicked the trigger as the instructions say. I'm about to take this thing apart. Please send me your name and address and price to put the lock and triggers thing back together-I'll send the box of parts.
Thanks;
joe b.