Citric acid brass cleaner [Archive]

sagacious

05-08-2010, 11:31 PM

I've been getting fantastic results with a home-made brass cleaner that uses citric acid as the cleaning agent. You can find citric acid sold inexpensively at health-food stores, and some drug stores, farm-supply stores, etc.

The citric acid powder is mixed 2 teaspoons to a quart of water. The exact concentration does not matter too much. A half-ounce in a gallon of water also works. High concentrations are not needed. Citric acid is the active ingredient in home-made brass cleaners that use lemon juice. Same stuff.

To use, pour enough boiling-hot water into a large glass (or non-metal) bowl to cover your dirty brass. Add the citric acid and give it a quick stir with a non-metal spoon. Then dump in your brass, and stir or swirl the container for a couple seconds. You will see the tarnish and dirt being removed almost instantly. Usually takes only a few seconds to a minute or so, and it's done-- there is no need to soak for a long time. The brass will look almost like-new, cleaned inside and out. Rinse the brass with clean hot water, and set aside to dry. You can tumble to polish the cases after drying, and brass treated with this solution polishes quickly. To reuse the solution later, just reheat it.

The advantage of citric acid is that it will not penetrate or damage the brass like ammonia-based brass cleaners will, and it works even faster. Also, citric acid passivates the brass, which means that after washing in the hot solution, the brass is actually made more corrosion-resistant. If you store brass for long periods, that's great news.

Below is a photo of piece of dirty, tarnished 50BMG brass that I dipped in the citric acid wash for only a few seconds. It cleans like magic. Give it a try.

Thought this might be of help to someone. And hey, why don't we have a forum on BRASS?

DLCTEX

05-08-2010, 11:42 PM

Thanks for posting this. I've been using the lemon juice, vinegar, and dish washing detergent, but I'll give this one a try. I have been using distilled water due to our hard water.

Ekalb2000

05-08-2010, 11:43 PM

The madness is spreading.
I use 2 cups hot water, three drops of dawn, and 3-4 tblspoons of lemon juice.
Where did you get your citric acid from?

rondog

05-09-2010, 12:36 AM

I've heard of this magic before, but I've never been able to find any citric acid. More details please.

cheese1566

05-09-2010, 12:54 AM

You can find it at wine making supply places.
http://www.midwestsupplies.com/citric-acid-1-lb.html

Might have luck in the canning/jelly supplies aisle at the supermarket. Maybe the stuff that keeps cut fruit from turning brown.

sagacious

05-09-2010, 01:06 AM

I purchased the citric acid at a local vitamin store. The brand is NOW Healthy Foods. They package citric acid in 4oz and 5lb quantities. I purchased 4ozs to try, and it cost me $4 and change-- but one can sometimes find citric acid for $5/lb. Here is a link to the product I purchased, and they have a store-locator on the homepage of the website: http://www.nowfoods.com/Products/ProductsbyCategory/Category/M003541.htm?cat=Natural%20Foods

You can also find citric acid sold as "sour salt" in the kosher foods section of many grocery stores, and I'll probably buy it from a local grocery store next time as it's likely to be cheaper there. 'Sour salt' is pure citric acid. You may have to look carefully in your local grocery store, as the employees may not be familiar with it. It is also sold in bakery-supply or cake supply stores. Note that citric acid is not vitamin C. Vitamin C is ascorbic acid, and I have no idea what ascorbic acid does to brass. If I recall correctly, it's ascorbic acid that prevents fruit from browning, and citric acid is what we're after.

Thanks for the link Cheese, that's a great price.

Hope this helps, good luck.

RKJ

05-09-2010, 10:53 AM

Good old koolaid (or any of the cheap varieties) work well too, not as fast as shown on the 50 bmg shell but works good overnight. I get it for .10 a pack, but I may have to look for citric acid now.

TDB9901

05-09-2010, 02:16 PM

cephas53

05-09-2010, 04:50 PM

StarMetal

05-09-2010, 05:01 PM

If you do any fruit canning, or freezing, I believe "Fruit Fresh" is mostly citric acid. Keeps peaches from turning brown during processing.

Never thought of using it on brass though...... That's why I come here!!!

Tom

sagacious explained that, that's ascorbic acid that keeps stuff from turning brown.

I just use the vinegar, lemon juice, dishsoap solution. Works very well, easy to find, cheap to buy.

Phosphoric acid will clean brass too. 1/2 teaspoon to a gallon of water.

Molly

05-09-2010, 05:42 PM

Nice post, starmetal, thanks. You can get about the same results with a spoonful of phosphoric acid in a gallon of warm water too. (Concentration and / or temperature is not at all critical.)

You can buy phosphoric at any chemical supply company, and at most neighborhood chemical companies. Failing that, just buy some 'Naval Jelly" rust remover at your local hardware. It's just a thickened phosphoric solution. It's more expensive that way, but hey, at a spoonful at a time, it won't break anyone's budget.

Phosphoric also has the advantage of very low toxicity: It's what gives most soda pop its tang. It is also much less reactive to organics (won't burn your skin) than most strong acids. Phosphoric is also used industrially to make metal surfaces corrosion resistant. Works for steel anyhow. Don't know about brass, but my cases in storage remain clean and untarnished year after year, so something good is going on.

A quick way to dry the clean cases is to pour off any excess water, and then pile them up on a beach towel. Grab both ends to make a hammoc, and pour them back and forth a few times. This won't dry the insides, but residual heat will help them dry inside more quickly. If you need them in a hurry, set your oven for 'warm', or about 120 degrees. When it's up to temperature, turn it off and put the cases in. They'll be dry in about half an hour.

I've used this for decades to keep my brass clean. Not shiny, but very obviously clean, just like you showed in your photo. Same basic technology, but different chemicals to do the job.

TDB9901

05-09-2010, 05:51 PM

I was skimming the thread fast before heading for work, and didn't read that whole post....:oops:
Had I thought a bit, I should have known that.....[smilie=b:

Thanks for catching me......

sagacious

05-09-2010, 11:00 PM

I have used phosphoric acid to clean brass and copper for a long time. Birchwood-Casey sells a Liquid Brass Cleaner, which is a glycolic/phosphoric acid concentrate. It works very well.

Reloaders should probably avoid commercially-formulated rust-removing phosphoric acid products. Some contain triethanolamines, and that can combine with humidity in the air to produce ammonia during storage of the brass, and ammonia can damage brass. Commercial phosphoric acid rust-removers may not provide the long-term corrosion protection that citric acid does, and may damage brass. The nice thing about citric acid is that it's easy to buy it in a pure form, with no additives. Citric acid also has the advantange of of being sold (and stored) as a solid powder, and is commonly available and very inexpensive, and actually helps protect brass.

Citric acid will passivate stainless steel, and also copper. A 10% solution at 140* will passivate stainless steel tools/parts in one hour. I use citric acid to passivate stainless tools that will be used in a marine environment. Citric acid is also a very powerful rust remover. Soak rusty steel tools in a hot 10% solution and the rust will be removed and dissolved.

Hope this helps. Good luck! :drinks:

Molly

05-10-2010, 01:29 PM

Reloaders should probably avoid commercially-formulated rust-removing phosphoric acid products. Some contain triethanolamines, and that can combine with humidity in the air to produce ammonia during storage of the brass, and ammonia can damage brass.

Hmmm. Hadn't thought about that possibility when I suggested using Naval Jelly. As a chemist, I always had plenty of Phosphoric handy, and like you, I found it works very well indeed. I haven't tried citric, but it should be just as effective as Starmetal showed. I don't know which would be the cheapest way to go, but I don't think either will break anyones wallet.

On further thought, I suspect that TEOA (and any derived derived ammonia) would become a phosphoric salt rather quickly, and should wash away when the cases are rinsed. Do you thnk this is a real problem?

MtGun44

05-10-2010, 01:42 PM

cheese1566

05-10-2010, 01:53 PM

AZ-Stew

05-10-2010, 03:40 PM

Interestingly they also mention a sulfuric acid dip, no thanks, and vinegar and salt solution.

Hmmmm...

Vinegar is dilute acetic acid. Photographic stop bath is acetic acid. I'll have to try some Kodak Indicator Stop bath. As a plus, it turns a purpleish color when it's exhausted. Of course, when the brass no longer cleans up, I guess that would be just as good an indicator.

I also have a good case dryer. With summer coming on, the air temp and low humidity will have a batch of cases dry in a half hour or less sitting in the sun.

Regards,

Stew

sagacious

05-10-2010, 10:06 PM

On further thought, I suspect that TEOA (and any derived derived ammonia) would become a phosphoric salt rather quickly, and should wash away when the cases are rinsed. Do you thnk this is a real problem?
I do think that TEOA could present a real risk of brass degradation, especially in brass stored for long periods in airtight containers. It's just a guess, but I suspect that the TEOA in phosphoric acid rust removers may be buffered, or it might immediately react with phosphoric acid to produce ammonia salts within the product package.

Ultimately, my thought is that any TEOA or amines that remain on the brass could eventually produce ammonia or ammonia salts during storage. You know how it is-- if there's a potential for disaster, someone will evenually find a way to run afoul of it. I'd just as soon suggest that any commercially-formulated rust removers not be used for brass cleaning, unless one knows for sure that it does not contain TEOA.

If one could find pure phosphoric acid, such as at a chemical supplier as you mentioned, or as the Birchwood-Casey liquid brass cleaner, that would probably be the best way to buy it.

Here's a link to the B-C liquid brass cleaner:
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=6&subId=47&styleId=129&partNum=BC-CC-1&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1&as=1

sagacious

05-10-2010, 10:44 PM

Alright you chemistry experts --- does this weak acid treatment reduce the oxidized brass so that you don't lose metal (basically turning the copper/zinc oxide into copper and zinc metal) or does it just etch off some material and possibly slightly damage the brass???

Bill
Yes, exactly-- it essentially reduces the metal back to pure form. It does not etch brass at all. It does not leave any residue that can damage brass.

Neither phosphoric acid nor citric acid will damage brass when used as suggested, and one can even use up to a 10% solution. More concentrated will not hurt, but it will not help the process along much either. That's the great thing about both of these chemicals-- they actually help protect the brass during storage. The protective action is called passivation, and it means that the brass is made less prone to tarnish or corrode. Some industries use a citric acid wash on brass parts that will be stored for extended periods. It's about as safe as it gets.

In this application, citric acid and phosphoric acid are 'self-limiting', which means that once the dirt/tarnish/corrosion is gone, the acid stops working. So, no worry about carefully timing the washing process. It works so fast you can actually see it cleaning, and when the brass is clean and the tarnish removed, nothing more happens.

Note that citric acid is NOT self-limiting when used to remove rust from steel, and citric acid will etch steel if left soaking long enough.

StarMetal

05-10-2010, 11:15 PM

While I was in the Navy they used phosphoric acid to clean the aluminum deck plates (there are in the engineering spaces) and also the stainless steel air casings on the boilers. This was back in the sail ship days boys!!:bigsmyl2: Now they're either nuke or gas turbine powered from what I hear.

I failed to mentioned an article about washing your phosphoric parts with a baking soda rinse. I believe that would kill any worries about losing metal off your cases. I when I use any of these mixtures I rinse my cases in a long water bath, preferably hot water, then drain them well, and dry them thoroughly in the kitchen oven. When dry I immediately put them in my vibrator cleaners for some really sparkling cases when finished.

MtGun44

05-10-2010, 11:30 PM

sagacious

05-11-2010, 01:18 AM

Any idea if nickel plated cases are adversely affected by either acid system?

Thanks

Bill

Bill,
I have never used either chemical on nickel cases. Usually the nickel ones tumble-clean easily, so I process them that way.

My understanding is that nickel is unaffected by citric acid. This is why citric acid is used to safely passivate stainless steel. Citric acid reacts very strongly with iron, but does not react at all with nickel or chromium. This leaves the ss surface enriched with nickel and chromium, and increases it's "stainless" property.

As a test of your question, I boiled some old (but shiny) Super-Vel 38Special nickel cases in citric acid solution for 3 minutes. The cases came out bright and looked identical to the unboiled cases. So, the citric wash should be perfectly safe for use on nickel-plated cartridge cases.

The Birchwood-Casey phosphoric/glycolic acid Liquid Brass Cleaner solution does not mention nickel on the package-container usage instructions. It does say to let the brass cases soak for 3 minutes, and then remove and rinse. As a test, I boiled some of the Super-Vel 38Spec nickel cases for 1 minute in the B-C solution. The nickel cases clearly reacted with the phosphoric/glycolic acid, and came out with a grayish stain (nickel phosphate, perhaps). So, I can not recommend the hot phosphoric acid wash on nickel cases.

Good shooting! :drinks:

StarMetal

05-11-2010, 01:23 AM

Oh come on StarMetal, the sailing ships were long gone when you were in the Navy,
replaced by the coal fired steamships, right? ;-) Did you have to shovel coal very
often?

Sagacious - thanks for the verification. Chemistry was a long time ago, but I was pretty sure
that this was a reduction reaction, and if so - no damage, and as you say - passivation
is a plus. I'll definitely give this a try.

Any idea if nickel plated cases are adversely affected by either acid system?

Thanks

Bill

Bill,

That NSFO (Navy Special Fuel Oil) looked like liquid coal and about burned like it. Feels like a long time ago with all these new age ships they have.

I don't like nickel cases, I feel they are too hard on the dies. Still feel the easiest to get and cheap is lemon juice, vinegar, and dash of dish soap.

sagacious,

On the above formula they recommend a dash of salt, why?

sagacious

05-11-2010, 02:11 AM

sagacious,

On the above formula they recommend a dash of salt, why?
The acid in the lemon (or vinegar, same process) reacts with salt to form a weak solution of hydrochloric acid.
The hydrochloric acid helps with cleaning metal.

Beekeeper

05-11-2010, 09:45 AM

Not to change the chemical but I have been using a swimming pool chemical called PH down.
It is a bycarbonets of soda compound and it works wonders on old range pickup brass or like mine that have been stored for a long time.'
A teaspoon of the stuff in a gallon of water will clean a hundred cases in about 5 minutes with just a few swirls with your hand.

Jim

cajun shooter

05-11-2010, 10:01 AM

I shoot only BP but have used lemon juice concentrate to soak my brass on the way home for quite a while now. Included in that is Pine Sol and Dawn with OXY. These are put into a gal of water at 2oz each. Later David

StarMetal

05-11-2010, 10:29 AM

The acid in the lemon (or vinegar, same process) reacts with salt to form a weak solution of hydrochloric acid.
The hydrochloric acid helps with cleaning metal.

Thanks, I quit putting it in, but knowing that I guess I'll add it again.

MtGun44

05-11-2010, 12:40 PM

Sagacious,

Thanks for doing the testing! I suspected that the citric would be OK with the nickel but
I was a little leering of the phosphoric. I think I'll sort out any nickel cases before I treat
any with phosphoric. I have some old salvaged .30-06 match brass that could benefit from
the citric or phosporic acid treatment before I tumble it.

Anybody ever come up with a cheap & EASY way to get the asphalt sealant out of unfired
dissassembled military cases? Nasty stuff! I'm thinking soaking in solvent for a few days,
but that is anything but cheap and easy, and then it will be all over them, not just in the
necks.

StarMetal -- is that the same stuff as Bunker C oil? My Dad was skipper of the USS Truckee
(fleet oiler) many years ago and he spoke about Bunker C, apparently very heavy oil chosen
because of extremely high energy per unit volume - more steaming range on a given fuel tank size.

StarMetal

05-11-2010, 02:34 PM

45 2.1

05-11-2010, 02:40 PM

Anybody ever come up with a cheap & EASY way to get the asphalt sealant out of unfired
dissassembled military cases? Nasty stuff!

You might try mineral spirits. We use it to clean prime off of concrete when necessary.

Molly

05-11-2010, 02:49 PM

Anybody ever come up with a cheap & EASY way to get the asphalt sealant out of unfired dissassembled military cases? Nasty stuff! I'm thinking soaking in solvent for a few days, but that is anything but cheap and easy, and then it will be all over them, not just in the necks.

Most any alphatic solvent; Lighter fluid, kerosene, lamp oil, turpentine, etc. Might try PineSol and d-Limonene based cleaners too.

BABore

05-11-2010, 03:01 PM

I add about a half teaspoon of pure orange oil to my lizard bedding (crushed walnut shells) case cleaner media. Strong enough to cut the lube off cases and makes them bright and shiny. Smells up the room good too.

cephas53

05-11-2010, 04:03 PM

Have used citric acid solution for awhile. First read about it in the NRA "Handloading" manual that was first published in the 80's, Their info was from from Frankford Arsenal. The cases are clean but not shiny bright. Interestingly they also mention a sulfuric acid dip, no thanks, and vinegar and salt solution. Have seen citric acid also at stores that sell wine making supplies.

Dusted the book off ("Reloading" not Handloading as I first said) and read the article. Just a note on the vinegar and salt solution. They used 2 tsp salt to gt of vinegar and soaked for 15-20 minutes, followed by a 5 minute water rinse. They noted cases soon tarnished after. A rinse with vinegar was reccomended before the water, in hopes of alleviating the tarnish, but cases still tarnished.

madsenshooter

05-11-2010, 05:08 PM

Here's where I get my citric acid: http://www.qcsupply.com/qcsupply/browse/productDetailWithPicker.jsp?productId=540923&categoryId=&fromPage=search

sagacious

05-11-2010, 05:33 PM

I'm thinking soaking in solvent for a few days, but that is anything but cheap and easy, and then it will be all over them, not just in the necks.

Bill,

Swab the case necks with Goo-Gone (d-limonene). Removes tar/asphalt quickly. Handy stuff to have on the tool bench, and is great for many gun-cleaning applications. It's easy on your hands, unlike some other solvents, and it smells nice. You can buy it at your hardware store (get it in the liquid bulk-package). Here's a link: http://www.hardwareandtools.com/Goo-Gone-32-Ounces-Goo-Gone-GZ92-by-Magic-American-Homax-u768033.html

sagacious

05-11-2010, 05:50 PM

Just a note on the vinegar and salt solution. They used 2 tsp salt to gt of vinegar and soaked for 15-20 minutes, followed by a 5 minute water rinse. They noted cases soon tarnished after. A rinse with vinegar was reccomended before the water, in hopes of alleviating the tarnish, but cases still tarnished.

Cephas53,
I'm glad you mentioned this. I have seen the same thing many times. Brass or copper treated with acetic acid will discolor and tarnish. Acetic acid cleans fast, but it does NOT protect and passivate the brass cases like citric acid does.

Vinegar apparently leaves an acetic acid or acetate residue on the brass, and it does not wash off with a clean water rinse. If you tumble after washing in vinegar it minimizes the effects, but you still do not get the passivation effect of citric acid.

If anyone wishes to use the acid + salt solution, it's probably better to use lemon juice and not vinegar. Note also that the hydrochloric acid (aka muriatic acid) produced will not passivate brass.

When I first started using citric acid on brass, I cleaned some cases and let them sit for a few days because I wanted to see if the brass would suffer the same discoloration that vinegar causes. Citric acid causes no tarnishing, and actually protects the brass from tarnishing.

This testing indicates to me that citric acid is one of the best possible brass case cleaners available, and it has no disadvantages that I am aware of.

Archey

05-11-2010, 07:19 PM

This is a great thread. Another advantage to the liquid cleaners is that you can clean different calibers of brass at the same time with out them getting stuck together like they do with tumblers.

Wayne Smith

05-11-2010, 07:44 PM

Thanks, Sagatious. Now another question - what, if any, effect does polishing have on the passivation of the brass?

cheese1566

05-11-2010, 08:47 PM

I'm lost :oops:...please clarify :veryconfu...

citric acid: good/bad?

sagacious

05-11-2010, 08:55 PM

I'm lost ...please clarify

citric acid: good/bad?

Citric acid is good.

Carry on. :drinks:

WallyM3

05-11-2010, 08:58 PM

Better/Best, sounds like.

Tried some on some black range brass tonight. Oh, man! 30 minute soak and it's brass again.

Well, almost.

Still need to tumble to remove come copper looking residue (which it did). I'm wondering what that copper color means.

cheese1566

05-11-2010, 09:19 PM

Citric acid is good.

Carry on. :drinks:

Many thanks!!

sagacious

05-11-2010, 09:22 PM

Thanks, Sagatious. Now another question - what, if any, effect does polishing have on the passivation of the brass?
Wayne,
Polishing/tumbling undoubtedly removes a certain amount of the passivated surface layer, but to a limited extent, polishing itself helps passivate metal. Depending on circumstances, some of the passivated layer probably remains after tumbling, so you're still on the plus side if you tumble after the citric acid wash. Of course, one should be sure to use a brass polish on the tumbling media that does not contain ammonia.

For those who do not polish/tumble their brass, the citric acid wash should be especially beneficial.

Citric acid passivation also helps prevent stress corrosion cracking in brass-- so if one reloads/stores OLD brass for obsolete calibers, the citric acid wash could be beneficial there too.

Curlymaple42

05-11-2010, 09:25 PM

See, THIS is why this forum is so great! Although, when I just went into the kitchen while my wife was doing the dishes and started mixing lemon juice, vinegar, and dishsoap and ran downstairs to get some brass, she was not so fond of this forum! Hahahaha! Once she saw the magical transformation of the brass though, she was cool with it...

MtGun44

05-11-2010, 09:27 PM

Cheese1566,

Citric acid is very good. It takes the thin outer layer of oxidized brass (same process as
rusting in iron based alloys) and reverses it, putting the brass back as metal. At the same
time it modifies the surface by removing microimpurities and electrochemically stabilizing
the surface to minimize future corrosion (tarnish is mild corrosion) - this is called passivation.

Very good. Use it.

I'll try the goo gone, I have a bottle of it for a hand cleaner. I have tried gas and mineral
spirts without much success - it softens the darned asphalt, but not quickly and treating a
couple thousand cases with a Qtip for a minute or two is not my idea of a good time.

Bill

WallyM3

05-11-2010, 09:31 PM

So, is that copper color redeposition of metal?

sagacious

05-11-2010, 09:37 PM

...
Still need to tumble to remove come copper looking residue (which it did). I'm wondering what that copper color means.

Wally,
In brass that has been subject to heavy tarnishing, some of the zinc component of the brass is actually phsically removed from the brass. The zinc can oxidize and the oxide will brush off with wear/tear and handling, or it can be dissolved/leached from the brass by certain acids, such as acids present in sweat and fingerprint oil, combustion products, soil acids, etc. Once that zinc is gone, it's essentially been physically removed, and it's not comin' back.

When the tarnish is gone after the citric acid wash, you'll see those zinc-depleted areas as copper-colored spots. The brass will be weaker in the area of the copper spot.

Relatively new brass that has not been subject to severe weathering or chemical attack is probably OK if it has a few small copper spots. Older brass with larger copper spots may not be OK, and may suffer cracking in the zinc-depleted areas upon resizing/crimping/firing. Treat such brass with suspicion.

Good luck. :drinks:

sagacious

05-11-2010, 09:42 PM

I'll try the goo gone...
treating a couple thousand cases with a Qtip for a minute or two is not my idea of a good time.

Bill

Pour 1/2" of Goo-Gone in a deli container or glass jar, and stand a few dozen rifle cases neck-down in the solvent. They can soak that way without having to submerge the cases entirely. Goo-Gone really goes to work on tar. Good luck.

MtGun44

05-11-2010, 09:45 PM

The copper color likely means a corrosive environment locally removed the zinc in the
alloy preferentially, leaving a local area of higher copper content. Probably not a plus,
altho it may not go very deep. Possibly actually removed all the zinc locally - oh, yeah --
cartridge brass is an alloy of 70% copper and 30% zinc.

Bill

WallyM3

05-11-2010, 09:48 PM

a.squibload

05-11-2010, 10:01 PM

I found some 44 brass in the basement, in a cardboard box, no telling how long it had been there.
Had some green stuff growing on it, like the stuff on battery terminals, only green.
Found a good way to handle it: threw it out.
Don't look at me in that tone of voice, it was only a few cases.

WallyM3

05-11-2010, 10:07 PM

I resemble that remark.

I'm only talking about 3,000 cases. ♫

sagacious

05-11-2010, 10:15 PM

Is the actual depth of loss visible in a cross section under, say, 40x magnification, do you think?

I mean, could I slice a cross section and inspect for deterioration visually?

Desperate times call for desperate measures (LOL).

Just so I'm in the same communication ball park, we're talking about CA260?

Yes, SAE #260 is Cu70/Zn30 aka yellow brass aka cartridge brass.

Yes, it should be visible under 40X. A 30X compact microscope works for me for most metal-surface inspection, but I'd hate to suggest that microscopy is needed in this case.

I just ignore any tiny copper spots-- they often disappear with tumbling. Large spots (say, 1/8"+ across) attract my attention. Usually scraping very lightly with a very sharp pocket knife will reveal the depth of the corrosion. Usually it's just surface corrosion that hasn't penetrated, and scraping reveals yellow brass, and that case is OK. This test works fairly well, and is easy.

If the corrosion has penetrated, the scraping usually reveals a 'gritty' material before passivation, or spongy metal after passivation, and that case gets scrapped. By the time the corrosion has penetrated to any important depth, the spot is usually well past normal tarnishing, and you'll see real corrosion-- usually white, black, green, or red-colored.

WallyM3

05-11-2010, 10:19 PM

Not to beat this horse deader than necessary, but would it then be reasonable to say that if the copper blotches polished off in a tumbler, then the deterioration is superficial?

sagacious

05-11-2010, 10:33 PM

Not to beat this horse deader than necessary, but would it then be reasonable to say that if the copper blotches polished off in a tumbler, then the deterioration is superficial?
Yes, exactly right.

WallyM3

05-11-2010, 10:44 PM

Yahoo!!!

Thank you.

This has been a great thread for me.

MtGun44

05-12-2010, 01:35 PM

I'll report back on the goo-gone asphalt sealant removal. I am well aware of the
wonderful capabilities of limonene (sp?) and related new water based citrus cleaners.
We have replace some really nasty stuff at work cleaning critical electronic assys
during processing with various versions of the limonene and other citrus extracts.
Great stuff, so I have some high hopes for the goo-gone.

Bill

jmsj

05-12-2010, 02:38 PM

Thanks guys for the information. I've got three 5 gallon pails of 30/06 brass to clean, I was not looking foward to tumbling all of those.
jmsj

goofyoldfart

05-12-2010, 03:39 PM

I have been using Lemon juice with Murphy oil soap (or Dawn or any dish soap) with water in a a rubber rock tumbler that I bought at Harbor Freight for 20.00 bucks on sale. I mix the solution and pour it over the 2/3rds full cans, seal them and start the tumbler. I then make some lemonade, drink it and go to bed or play on the computer ( like coming here). when I sleep, the sound of the tumbler is a lulling one--sort of like waves. Next morning, when I wake up, I rinse the tumbled brass in Hot water (my apartment has scalding hot water) and shake dry, place on a cookie sheet (just used for reloading) in the oven @125 degrees. make Breakfast and eat same and then take out the brass. Drink cup of coffee, smoke 2 cigs and harass the cat.:coffee: by then the brass is very dry, very shiny and ready for priming and reloading.:mrgreen: The only problem people seem to find with this is 1) I smoke too much, 2) I'm being mean to the cat. hell, I've been smoking too much for 58 years and am still here, and the cat starts it. she's evil but loves me:twisted: and If I don't reciprocate she starts to worry. end of story is ---- Brass very clean and Shiny.:)

ETA: cat is happy, too.

MtGun44

05-12-2010, 07:50 PM

My guess is that with enough lemon juice you could be done in about 10-15 minutes.

Bill

WallyM3

05-12-2010, 08:22 PM

Oh, and by the way...it's a good thing to wear gloves when using citric/phosphoric acid solutions.

Anyone got band-aids?

Sure works, though.

sagacious

05-12-2010, 09:55 PM

Huh? Band-aids? You've got to be kidding. :)

One only needs to mix 1 or two teaspoons of citric acid per quart of water. The instructions on my container of "food grade" citric acid indicate that a mixture of 1tsp/qt is completely safe to eat. It says, "Use 1 tsp per quart of water or juice for most fruits and vegetables." That's less citric acid than lemon juice contains.

That's the great thing about citric acid-- it's safe to use.

Phosphoric acid mixed properly is very similar. The usage instructions on the Birchwood-Casey Liquid Brass Cleaner solution say to mix it at a ratio of 2 ounces per quart of water. The mixed solution only has .4oz of phosphoric acid per quart. That's exactly the same amount of phosphoric acid as in Coca Cola syrup.

As long as one does not pour the solution in one's eyes, the solutions mixed as advised are safe as lemon juice to handle. But I'd also not recommend lemon juice in the eyes, so one need only use the same caution as when cutting/juicing lemons. Good luck.

RKJ

05-12-2010, 10:37 PM

I have been reading this thread (and even posted to it) and yesterday I was at my local supermarket and while I was getting some paraffin I saw a container of Citric Acid priced at $3.00. I got some as I had some range pickups that were black. I mixed 2 tablespoons in a pint of water (I know, overkill) and swished it about 3 times, after about 5 minutes they were ready to tumble. Man, it beats the koolaid bath I've been using by far. I'm converted. Sagacious, thanks.

WallyM3

05-12-2010, 11:07 PM

garandsrus

05-12-2010, 11:08 PM

Will this clean the tarnish from BP cases also? I was thinking of getting ceramic tumbler media, but if this will work it will be a whole lot easier.

John

sagacious

05-13-2010, 12:32 AM

Wally,

Hold yer horses, compadre! :smile: I did not at all intend to offend. You may have taken my response the wrong way. By all means wear gloves if you have a special skin condition. If someone suspects they might have an acute reaction to mild acidic solutions, they should please exercise all appropriate safety considerations specific to their individual case.

Most folks can tolerate lemon juice or Coca Cola syrup on their skin-- that's the safety-level correlation I wanted to relate. This citric solution brass cleaning solution is weaker than lemon juice.

Please note that the solution never needs to come into contact with skin. In several years of using acid washes on brass, I have never put my hands in the solution-- because I use it very hot-- and I take care not to splash it. Use appropriate care when pouring-off the solution after use, or in your case Wally, you may wish to simply neutralize it with baking soda and avoid any citric acid splashes entirely. If the mix needs stirring, please use a non-metal spoon-- as I advised in my opening post.

Regards, and best of luck! :drinks:

sagacious

05-13-2010, 12:46 AM

Will this clean the tarnish from BP cases also? I was thinking of getting ceramic tumbler media, but if this will work it will be a whole lot easier.

John

John,
I do not shoot BP, but the citric acid wash does a very good job of removing tarnish and crud from really dirty brass cases. I recently cleaned some old rifle cases that had a lot of crud in the primer pockets, and the citric acid wash completely removed every speck of gunk from the pockets.

It will only cost a few dollars to test this solution on BP-fired brass, and I suspect it should work very well. Good luck.

TDB9901

05-13-2010, 09:39 AM

This is a great thread!

With the exception of my one inane half informed post......:oops: Does anyone else think it rises to the level of a sticky??

Faret

05-13-2010, 10:50 AM

Does anyone else think it rises to the level of a sticky??

Yes but need to make room on the page. Maybe a folder for stickys?

45nut

05-13-2010, 02:59 PM

thread will be copied over to the Classics and Stickies area soon, don't want to move it too soon and lose info yet to be posted.

Von Gruff

05-13-2010, 06:46 PM

I picked up some citric acid yesterday at the grocery store to give this a try and have two queries.
Is this as effective used cold ?

Can it be stored and re-used next cleaning session?

Von Gruff.

sagacious

05-13-2010, 07:33 PM

I picked up some citric acid yesterday at the grocery store to give this a try and have two queries.
Is this as effective used cold ?
Yes, it's effective at room temp-- just works faster when used hot. When it's hot it removes tarnish/crud almost instantly. You can mix the citric acid powder with hot tap water to make a batch.

Can it be stored and re-used next cleaning session?

Von Gruff.
Yes, it definitely can be reused several times. I've been reusing an old batch just to see how much mileage it gets. The solution will eventually turn blue, but will still work until the citric acid is exhausted. You can store it in a plastic milk jug with CITRIC ACID SOLUTION written on the side. Store in a cool place.

However, many people may find that it's easier to make a new batch than to store it. 1 or 2 teaspoons of citric acid in a quart of hot tapwater makes for a very inexpensive brass cleaner that is totally safe to pour down the drain.

Citric acid is an organic acid and the solution cannot be stored for very long periods, like a year, as the acid may be neutralized over that time. Probably better to make a new batch if you won't be reusing it for a very long time.

Molly

05-13-2010, 08:15 PM

Green earth / EPA / good citizen disposal consideration: If you intend to dispose of used citric or phosphoric acid solutions, they aren't highly toxic, but stir a spoonful of baking soda in and see what happens. If it fizzes, toss in another sponful, until it doesn't fizz any more. This neutralizes the acids, and makes you feel good about pouring it down the sink. A little excess baking soda won't hurt, and is better than excess acid.

Molly

sagacious

05-13-2010, 08:47 PM

Not a bad idea to neutralize, Molly, especially when using phosphoric acid.

Fortunately citric acid is pretty friendly stuff. It's not listed as a hazardous or polluting substance under the guidelines of the Clean Water Act, and is very often actually used to treat contaminated wastewater. This citric acid solution is safe for septic systems, as some toilet bowl cleaners use citric acid at a pH of 2.0-3.0, so no worries on that regard.

Microbes metabolize citric acid, and this is one of the reasons that long-term storage breaks-down citric acid. The 'feel-good' aspect is one of the best reasons to use citric acid.

taminsong

05-13-2010, 08:53 PM

I've been looking for citric acid here in my location but for sure, no one is selling it. I really looked hard and the last recourse is to search the web.

I did find a guy in Manila that sells it but in a "25 kls. bag"! I think its selling for $53.

I also checked the amazon site but they will never ship to the Philippines. Though they're selling it for $5.00

Maybe someone here's got a good heart to ship me a bottle, I'll pay via paypal.

Thanks.

Kynth

sleeper1428

05-13-2010, 10:14 PM

DLCTEX

05-13-2010, 10:22 PM

Actually the acid would be good for our alkaline soils and waters here. Farmers mix sulfur with fertilizer to neutralize the soil. Many people read gardening articles written by people from acidic regions and add their fireplace ashes to their soil, but is raises the PH and turns plants yellow.

sagacious

05-13-2010, 11:19 PM

I've been looking for citric acid here in my location but for sure, no one is selling it.
...
Thanks.

Kynth

Kynth,
See if you can locate a kosher-foods store. A quick Google check reveals that you might be able to buy citric acid (aka "sour salt) at a kosher store in your area.
http://www.citem.gov.ph/kosher/

Hopefully that provides a lead-- an email to them might help locate a local source. Keep looking, there is probably a way for you to buy it locally. Good luck.

sagacious

05-13-2010, 11:23 PM

Actually the acid would be good for our alkaline soils and waters here. ...
Yes indeed. Heck, the instructions on my package of citric acid say that 1tsp/qt water helps promote sprouting in seeds.

geargnasher

05-14-2010, 12:27 AM

sagacious, I'm not complaining about the mix, formula, technique, style, result or efficacy. Immersion in an acid solution of even mild composition, evidently, dries my skin to the point of creating painful cracks on my hands.

What a jerk I am. I have a dry skin problem in low humidity conditions that appears to be exacerbated by acidic liquid contact.

I should have been still, I think. I must be the only one.

In any event, this will be an invariable part of my case processing routine.

BTW, food grade walnuts will kill those who are allergic to them.

Wally, mix Felix World Famous Lube 50/50 with a good anti-biotic ointment and apply to those cracks in your hands! I routinely steal a small bit of the lube ribbon that perpetually creeps from my Lyman 450 to smear on my chapped lips while reloading. Funny thing is I have perfected through many batches a really super healing chapped lip balm and keep a jar of it on the reloading bench, but the FWFL is more convenient and works almost as well.

Sagacious, acid scarification is common practice in seed germination, as many seeds have evolved to require digestion to break the surface enough to allow air/water inside to initiate the process.

One question for the Chemists: The factory stainless steel barrel of my 10-22 keeps getting nasty rust spots on it just sitting inside by the back door, would it be possible to treat the barrel (after removing it from the action, of course) in citric acid solution to calm this down? 140* for an hour, perhaps?

Gear

MtGun44

05-14-2010, 12:51 AM

Passivation of stainless steel is typically done with nitric acid. The point is to remove any
bits of iron or steel that are providing local points of electrochemical difference which can
cause corrosion. Clean with a strong alkali cleaner like 409 or castrol purple, plug the muzzle
and pour in some 20-50% nitric acid and leave for about 30 minutes or more with the weaker
solutions. Actual treatments are often done at higher than room temp.

In addition to removing the contamination, it also creates an oxide film which protects
against further corrosion. I have seen cases of severe corrosion of stainless steel because
it was never passivated.

Bill

sagacious

05-14-2010, 01:05 AM

...
Sagacious, acid scarification is common practice in seed germination, as many seeds have evolved to require digestion to break the surface enough to allow air/water inside to initiate the process.
See, just goes to show ya learn something new every day! I was familiar with abrasive, fire, and microbial scarification. The acid scarification was a new one, but I reckon it's the same idea as gastric scarification. Is this a general practice that one could use for gardening? I get so/so gemination from melon seeds. I have scarified with sandpaper, but is a citric acid wash better alone, or is a combo OK?

One question for the Chemists: The factory stainless steel barrel of my 10-22 keeps getting nasty rust spots on it just sitting inside by the back door, would it be possible to treat the barrel (after removing it from the action, of course) in citric acid solution to calm this down? 140* for an hour, perhaps?

Gear
Yes, exactly. The solution should remove the rust and passivate the surface. Clean the barrel inside and out thoroughly. I would not advise heating beyond 140*F for so. Use a 10%max solution and soak for an hour. You must air-dry for 24 hours+ after passivation-- warm air drying is best. Do not apply oil before then.

Note to others: Citric acid will remove rust from carbon steel. It will also remove gun bluing, so do not soak a steel/chromoly barrel unless you intend to refishing it.

sagacious

05-14-2010, 01:20 AM

Passivation of stainless steel is typically done with nitric acid.
...
In addition to removing the contamination, it also creates an oxide film which protects against further corrosion. I have seen cases of severe corrosion of stainless steel because it was never passivated.

Bill
Bill,
Nitric and other mineral acids are rapidly being replaced by citric acid in industrial passivation of stainless steel and other metals.

Why? Citric actually works much better than nitric, and is also much safer than fuming nitric acid. Coors did a lot of pioneering testing that determined that citric was a better passivation agent-- and many believe that this is why many beers taste better these days.

Citric only removes free iron from the surface, so the passivation layer is measurably deeper than with nitric. Nitric removes the entire surface. That means nitric baths have heavy nickel and chromium loads, and the hexavalent chromium is very hard to remove-- so you've now got heavy metal disposal issues. Etc, etc. Citric is much better. Most metallurgists learned about passivation with nitric, and there's still occasional arguments about it (mainly between older and younger scientists)-- but there's no argument in industry, which tells one something. If they're using it, it must work.

The passivation layer is actually formed in air after reaction in the passivation bath. The chromium oxides form in air, so air drying is critical. Heating while air drying speeds up the formation of the passivation layer.

Not arguing, just sayin'. Not every day that a better/safer chemical process comes along.

Regards! :drinks:

Murphy

05-14-2010, 10:26 AM

Okay, found the citric acid at a feed store.

My biggest question is how to save the mix and re-heat it after using it.

Suggestions?

Murphy

Molly

05-14-2010, 11:30 AM

One question for the Chemists: The factory stainless steel barrel of my 10-22 keeps getting nasty rust spots on it just sitting inside by the back door, would it be possible to treat the barrel (after removing it from the action, of course) in citric acid solution to calm this down? 140* for an hour, perhaps? Gear

Surface passivation of metals, especially stainless, it a pretty rigorous operation, at least when done industrially. But there's stilll hope; I once lived in a really damp house, and was having to thoroughly clean all my guns every two weeks, or I would pick up rust on a cleaning rag. I tried everything on the market, and found little or no difference between them: All resulted in rust within two weeks until I tried RIG. That stands for Rust Inhibiting Grease. I wiped them down with an invisibly thin film of RIG, and no rust after one week. No rust after two weeks. No rust after a month. No rust after two months. No rust after a year. And that's when I ended the test. I've used nothing but RIG and have had no rusting problems for something like 30 years. If anything, your stainless barrel should be even more resistant if you treat it with RIG. And, no, I have no stock or other commercial interest in the product.

NSP64

05-14-2010, 12:15 PM

Okay, found the citric acid at a feed store.

My biggest question is how to save the mix and re-heat it after using it.

Suggestions?

Murphy

Maybee old crock pot?

Murphy

05-14-2010, 01:49 PM

NSP64,

I was wondering about that as a possibility. They're relatively cheap and can be found at garage sales, etc.

I was thinking just scooping out the cleaned brass, letting it get back up to temp & adding more citric acid.

Heck, I found my citric acid at the local feed store for just under $3 for 14 oz. Not like it's a huge expense.

Thanks for your input.

Murphy

geargnasher

05-14-2010, 02:33 PM

Thanks for all the tips on the SS barrel, it's just cosmetic surface rust on the outside, bore is fine due to the nature of .22 rimfire. I'll try the warm citric acid solution bath and a warm air dry first.

Sagacious, I'm not much of a germination expert (I was educated as an engineer), but I have a friend who dabbles extensively in native plant cultivation and have picked up on a few things from him. Seems that gourd seeds are among those that benefit from an acid treatment since they are mostly consumed by warm-blooded creatures with acidic stomachs. Bluebonnet seeds need to be treated like passing through a bird's crop and stomach, which means sandpaper and weak hydrochloric acid (muriatic).

Gear

sagacious

05-14-2010, 07:58 PM

...
Seems that gourd seeds are among those that benefit from an acid treatment since they are mostly consumed by warm-blooded creatures with acidic stomachs. Bluebonnet seeds need to be treated like passing through a bird's crop and stomach, which means sandpaper and weak hydrochloric acid (muriatic).

Gear
Gear,
Your comments prompted me to think exactly that-- the gourd seed/gastric scarification/animal connection. Thanks very much for the spark of insight. I'm sure my garden will be the better for it.

The 'rub' with passivation is that generally one cannot visibly see any change on the stainless steel. You should, however, see that the rust is gone. In some stainless steels, I have noticed that they 'feel' different after passivation-- small stainless parts have a very slight 'stickiness' when in contact immediately after removal from the passivation bath. I passivate stainless to be used in saltwater, and so far so good. If you guessed 140*F for an hour in a 10* solution... then you guessed right on the money.

You can test ss passivation by placing a small amount of a 20% CuSO4 (and 1% H2SO4) solution on the stainless for 6 minutes and carefully inspecting for metallic copper deposits afterward. Citric acid passivation passes ASTM testing standards, and if curious, one can look up their standards specification for passivation and testing. Good luck.

sagacious

05-14-2010, 08:21 PM

Okay, found the citric acid at a feed store.

My biggest question is how to save the mix and re-heat it after using it.

Suggestions?

Murphy
Murphy,
A plastic gallon milk/juice jug works very well as a storage container for the solution. A large tupperware beverage container or similar would also work well, and a 2-liter soda bottle will suffice as a storage container. A 1-gal, 3-gal or 5-gal plastic bucket w/snap-lid is excellent for storing/using a larger amount of solution. Be sure to label the container: CITRIC ACID SOLUTION.

Do not store/use it in anything metal, and I would recommend against storage in an enamelled crock pot. I once stored an acid solution in a large enamelled pot (leather tanning solution) and it slightly etched the enamel at the waterline. Not sure that would happen with citric acid, but during long term storage, microbial action could etch the enamel in the same way. Storage in plastic is best.

You can reheat the solution in a microwave (be sure to reheat in a glass bowl). I often use large Pyrex glass bowls for soaking the brass. Or you can just make a new batch using hot water, as your citric acid source is very inexpensive. Otherwise, a room temp soak works fine-- just takes a bit longer, but won't hurt anything. Good luck.

DLCTEX

05-14-2010, 10:59 PM

I'm curious as to the use that a feed store would stock it for? Animal feed additive? Seed treatment?

rondog

05-15-2010, 01:16 AM

I'd use an empty windshield washer fluid jug for storage. Those are usually thicker, heavier plastic than milk or water jugs. They're also great to use for walking around picking up brass, I cut out the top to open it up a little but leave the handle.

Lavid2002

05-15-2010, 01:54 AM

This thread inspired me to try to shine up some range brass. Put it in a bucket with hot water, lemon, and vinegar. After a few minutes the insides were a lot cleaner, the outside was noticeably cleaner, but not *Brand new* looking...Close

-Dave

pmeisel

05-15-2010, 09:16 AM

Reemphasis of a point above -- if you are storing any chemical or mix of chemicals in a non-original container -- LABEL IT IN AN OBVIOUS AND DURABLE WAY.

I have seen a few mistakes with mislabeled chemicals and they can be anywhere from inconvenient to dangerous.

Murphy

05-15-2010, 11:53 AM

DLCTEX,

The citric acid I found was in a package. The instructions were targeted at use for cleaning water lines. No mixing of the acid in foods/feed were mentioned on the packaging.

Murphy

MtGun44

05-15-2010, 01:46 PM

Sagacious,

Interesting that citric acid is finding so many uses these day. Our passivation has always
used nitric in the past, but I mostly work with stress analysis, only run across the factory
stuff incendental to a particular project. So my company may have switched to citric acid
and I wouldn't necessarily have known it, don't have contact with the factory day to day.
Your point about chromium ions is a very big deal. From the little bit I know chrome 6 is
very nasty, so creating it unecessarily would be a huge problem in industry.

I'm going to have to locate a source of citric acid. I'll be dipping my .30-06 necks in the
goo-gone later today to try to get the asphalt sealer residue out - they are unfired so
I think they have a lot more asphalt than fired brass.

Bill

JesseCJC

05-15-2010, 02:01 PM

Not sure if it has been posted but you fellas lookin for citric acid should look no further than your local walmart or grocer. I use a product called lemishine with great results and it's found with the dish detergent and is about 4 bucks. Apologies if this has been posted as I have not read the thread in its entirety

Here are my results
A repost of my quote

just bought some of this lemi-shine for 4 bucks. Might have over did it with the water as I filled the gallon up but I can already notice a difference. I will post up the before and edit for a follow up tomorrow.
http://i42.tinypic.com/5n90k0.jpg

As you can see some are just straight brown and this is even post corncob tumble with brass polish. I threw in about 500-600 total pieces in a 1 gallon with 5 tbsp of the lemishine and topped it off with hot water.

well needless to say, it works fantastically

http://i42.tinypic.com/6pnjt1.jpg

The slight pinkish tint was from over concentrating the solution with the lemishine. I use now about 2-3 tablespoons per gallon of water and yes, the solution is reusable.

MtGun44

05-15-2010, 03:42 PM

Looks great. At first the second pic looks like nickeled brass! I'll start with
Lemishine, and keep an eye out for citric acid.

Bill

sagacious

05-15-2010, 07:30 PM

Bill,
I agree; the breadth of application of citric acid is amazing. In a time when "chemicals" are viewed with increasing suspicion by the general public, citric acid is likely to carve out an even deeper niche. Good luck with the tar sealant-- like you I had a whole bunch of unfired/pulled 30-06 military cases, and I treated them successfully with Goo-Gone.

JesseCJC,
Thank you very much for posting the info about Lemishine. That will undoubtedly prove to be a convenient source of citric acid for many people. The brass looks great.

Doc Highwall

05-15-2010, 08:30 PM

JesseCJC, how long did you let the cases soak in the Lemishine.

JesseCJC

05-15-2010, 09:54 PM

I let them sit overnight, maybe 6 hours or so. Shook it all up when I mixed it and once again before bed.

Murphy

05-15-2010, 11:32 PM

I finally got all my stuff together tonight and did a batch with citric acid. Works excellent.

But now that I've seen the Lemishine post, looks like I'll be trying that as well.

I've always been plumb fool about 'shiney' brass to begin with.

This has been an EXCELLENT thread.

Murphy

WallyM3

05-16-2010, 11:42 PM

sagatious: Please accept my apologies. I got pulled away from participation in the Forum just at the time I should have been back peddling. [smilie=1:

I was having a hissy fit and being cranky at my own stupidity about not being more careful with an oil-depleting solution on skin. Years of using methylene chloride as a hand cleaner has resulted in a condition that gives me absolute fits in dry weather. I get those skin cracks on my hands that are both painful and frustrating, and actually openly bleed when aggravated. Hurts like he!!.

Anyway, anyone who is prone to this sort of thing should proceed full steam with this process. Just wear gloves. I received some "left outdoors" range brass that looked like it had been salvaged from the Titanic. I found that a 20 to 30 minute soak rendered them free of the black/gray stains completely.

I dried and tumbled the result and discarded anything that still showed significant copper "liver spots".

I, too, vote for this thread becoming a "Sticky".:drinks:

DLCTEX

05-16-2010, 11:58 PM

sagacious

05-17-2010, 03:06 AM

Wally,
No worries at all bro! Sometimes things just get jumbled-up every now and then in written communication. Happens to the best of us.

Glad the brass wash went well. Sure is nice to make that dirty range brass shine again. Keep on keepin on! :drinks:

sagacious

05-17-2010, 03:09 AM

I mentioned to my wife about a thread concerning a cheap crock pot at WalMart and she said I could have her small one as it gets too hot. I was thinking about using it for heating boolit lube, but it may be used to heat citric acid solution, or both.:D
Great idea-- now that's genius. Used as a double-boiler with lube, and straight with citric acid, should work fantastic.

WallyM3

05-17-2010, 03:13 AM

We need more Emoticons!

I wish I had the forethought to take some "before" photos. Out of context, the "after" photos would be meaningless. It's all just sparkly, clean brass.

blackthorn

05-17-2010, 10:23 AM

I picked up a little cast iron pot at the local fleamarket. It holds 3 of the regularly available small cast iron lead pots full of water. It was very rusty with a lot of scaly rust. My (priceless) wife had four-4oz and one-2oz bottles of citric acid that has been sitting around the house since before she met me (1991). I put the pot in a plastic container, added enough really hot water to cover it, plus a bit, and mixed in the 2oz's of citric acid. I let it soak for two days and the pot came out looking almost like new (except for a few really deep pits). The liquid did not bother my hands at all, so I guess i'm not sensitive. Hmmmmm seems i've been told that a time or two! Anyway, great thread!!

WallyM3

05-17-2010, 10:45 AM

You must not use paint stripper as a hand cleaner. [smilie=l:

Thanks for that tip. I've got a cast Iron pot recently that must hold 40 to 50 lbs of metal, but looks like it may have been used as a boat anchor. I'll give it a try.

WallyM3

05-17-2010, 09:25 PM

I must promulgate a "Duh-oh!" re: my last post.

Fishing chum called and said "Let's go." So I hastily dumped 2-3 oz of citric acid in a plastic bucket, filled it with hot water and left it outside to do its thing.

I forgot to take the "before" picture.

Eight hours later, the thing looks like it's down to bare metal. Amazing! I've let it continue to soak and will retrieve it tomorrow (if someone doesn't suggest another fishing trip).

cheese1566

05-17-2010, 10:28 PM

Went an looked the health food store...$5 for only 4 ounces. I moved on...

I did however find the MSDS sheet for the Hornady Sonic Case Cleaner...citric acid!

http://www.hornady.com/assets/files/msds/OneShot_Sonic_Clean_Case_Formula.pdf

Doc_Stihl

05-18-2010, 02:48 PM

Has anyone tried the citric acid bath with ultrasonic cleaning?

cheese1566

05-18-2010, 02:52 PM

Not me, but I am feeling an itch to buy one off Ebay or Harbor Freight.

The Ebay ones are a spitting image of the Hornady for about $65. The Harbor Freight is a little larger for $60.

Doc_Stihl

05-18-2010, 02:53 PM

I noticed one of the ebay models included a heater, had a much more powerful motor, larger basket and was only a bit more money. I've been close to "pulling the trigger" on one....

Fishslayer

05-18-2010, 03:45 PM

I've tried the Lemi Shine. I only give it a couple hours at most because the pinkish tinge it develops makes me a bit uncomfortable.

I get my pickups at an indoor range, tho so I don't really have to deal with heavy duty grunge.

Doc_Stihl

05-18-2010, 04:20 PM

10 minutes in a 20% solution of lemon juice and hot tap water with a half a teaspon of salt in the ultrasonic made for startling results.

I just dropped in 5 pieces of 3x fired 45-70 that wasn't really terribly dingy, but the 45-70 would let me see inside easy. Well, I can see inside REALLY easy now cause the powder residue is completely gone. There are some streaks where lube was left and caked hard, but the inside is shiny and clean. I'm going to see what another 15 minutes will do. Pull another, then run it for another 15 minutes. I'll have pics up tonight when I get a chance.

And this was with brass that had already been through the tumbler and was "clean".

NSP64

05-18-2010, 05:23 PM

I wonder if squeezed lemon or orange would work?

WallyM3

05-18-2010, 05:53 PM

If life gives a reloader lemons, make citrus cleaner? I like that.

Doc_Stihl

05-18-2010, 09:03 PM

Results from my first try at ultra-sonic cleaning.

45-70 Primer pockets.
1st - brass is tumbled
2nd - 10 Minutes
3rd - 20 Minutes
4th - 30 Minutes
5th - 30 Minutes and then back in the tumbler

22346

Second 2 pics are the insides of the cases in the same order.

22347
22349

Last Pic is the inside 30 minutes and a tumble.

22348

I'm going to try the same solution at about 10% and no salt and try.

Things that I noted; The brass seems "sticky". I saw the same result when I did vinegar rinses on really nasty brass. I'll try a baking soda bath for a minute after the lemon juice. I'm also going to pick up some citric acid ASAP.

Doc Highwall

05-18-2010, 09:16 PM

Doc_Stihl, I just picked up the Lemi Shine at Walmart and tried that as I could not get the citric acid and it worked great. I used four table spoons in a gallon of water and soaked the cases for about four hours then tumbled them, and they looked like new cases.

MtGun44

05-18-2010, 11:23 PM

+1 on Lemishine. The really dark portions of brass look coppery when done, but that comes
off in a very quick tumble to polish.

Tried the Goo Gone on the asphalt neck sealant residue in .30-06 Match pulled down brass.
Not good. Softened it some what but even with a stainless .30 cal bore brush it didn't all
come out. Plus the cases are so darned slick that they are almost impossible to handle. I used
about 50-50 Goo Gone and water. Cleaned the cases nicely tho.

Put about 100 cases in a polypropylene disposable kitchen storage container
and covered with gasoline, sealed the lid overnight. Removed the brass one an a time (outside!)
and poured the gas back into the container. As I removed each one, did a quick twisting in
and out with the SS brush in the neck. Perfectly clean. Let them air outside for a day and
will lemishine briefly and then tumble. Should be good to deprime at that point. Primers
were killed after the company pulled the bullets and (probably) salvaged the powder.

Goo gone is MUCH nicer smelling and on the skin that gasoline, but just didn't cut the old
dried up asphalt.

Bill

WallyM3

05-18-2010, 11:30 PM

I'm speculating here, but one outfit that knows something about removing grime (there's nothing dirtier than an old machine tool) is Bridgeport. They recommend using Naptha to clean out their machine's spindle columns. They contain preloaded bearings that must hold tiny tenths against powerful shock and thrust.

Just a thought.

sagacious

05-19-2010, 12:06 AM

I used about 50-50 Goo Gone and water.
...
Goo gone is MUCH nicer smelling and on the skin that gasoline, but just didn't cut the old dried up asphalt.

Bill
You're making it hard on yourself. Use Goo-Gone full-strength, same as you used the gasoline full-strength.

Diluting the Goo-Gone with water defeates it's ability to solubilize non-water-soluble petrochemicals such as tar. OK to dilute for water-soluble chores, but tar requires full strength Goo-Gone. Worked great for me in the exact same chore. Glad you got the tar out.

a.squibload

05-19-2010, 03:12 AM

...and don't forget to pour that pint of gas back in the tank, it's probably worth more than the brass!

joatmon

05-19-2010, 09:16 PM

Is the lemishine a powder or liquid?
Thanks Aaron

Thanks Doc Highwall (post # 129) Powder.

excavman

05-19-2010, 10:42 PM

sagacious

05-19-2010, 11:56 PM

This is a real informative thread, great. I wonder if the citric acid powder could be used in the tumbling media, if it would do anything.

I found a good source of Citric acid powder today, he'll ship it to you for $8/lb. plus shipping. He also sells all kinds of seasonings and spices. The warehouse is about 1.5 miles from my house.

Call for info: 870-258-3523

Townsend Supplies, Inc.
8 East Main St.
Oxford, AR 72565

Excavman,
Thanks for the source suggestion. Nice to find a supplier in your neck of the woods.

The citric acid requires water to mediate the chemical reaction that removes the tarnish and cleans the brass. That's the unmentioned part of many of these chemical reactions, they require the presence of water to happen. Also, dilution with water allows one to control the strength of the solution, and the cases should be rinsed with clean water after treatment with the citric acid solution.

I wouldn't advise it's use in dry tumbling media. There have been a couple times when I've added something to my tumbling media and it caused a mess-- cases and primer pockets clogged with media. I wouldn't want anything like that to befall the folks here. Good luck.

Typecaster

05-20-2010, 05:19 PM

Another source is:

http://www.brambleberry.com/Miscellaneous-Supplies-C182.aspx

$3.25/#; $22.50/10#

I bought 10# of food-grade citric acid for removing rust and for #2 son, who is now making cheese. It was about the same price from a biodiesel supply house; I'll post that when I get back to the shop.

Richard

Doc Highwall

05-20-2010, 05:35 PM

The Lemi Shine is a powder.

Typecaster

05-20-2010, 05:59 PM

http://www.dudadiesel.com/all_chemicals.php

05-20-2010, 07:58 PM

This has been a very interesting thread, and I believe some of you guys may know a lot more about this than I do. I have some "off topic" questions about passivation, corrosion and galvanic reaction involving large stainless steel structural elements incorporated into a carbon steel/concrete support framework in a salt air environment. Alloys of SS are 304 , 305 and 316. On the small side we have fasteners and flashings. On the large side we have SS I-beams, C-channel and concrete embedments up to about 900 pounds.

If you are truely knowledgable in this area, please send me a PM.

BD

madsenshooter

05-20-2010, 08:16 PM

Citric acid is also a good flux for getting oxides back into your melt. The anhydrous version that is.

Molly

05-20-2010, 10:43 PM

Hmmm. I proly shouldn't mention this, but citric acid (adulterated with water and a suitable type and quantity of sweetner) makes Kool-Aid. Versatille stuff.

Wouldn't recommend you make it too strong though. Might clean your pipes better than you want them cleaned. Had a fellow make up a batch of refreshment in the lab, years ago. He went around passing it out, and got a lot of appreciation. The appreciation dimmed somewhat after a few hours though, because it was standing room only in the men's facility. Seems he hadn't bothered to clean out the lab beaker he used to make it in.

runfiverun

05-20-2010, 11:37 PM

that same packaged stuff you need to add sugar to, cleans a dishwasher pretty well too.

geargnasher

05-21-2010, 12:15 AM

Ok, here's a new one: After reading the suggestion to use Goo Gone to dissolve asphalt cartridge sealant I tried cleaning my loaded cartridges with it to remove the last visage of Felix Lube from the casemouths, and got clean brass, to boot!

My technique is usually to spritz an old hand towel with Ed's Red (it's handy), make a hammock of the towel, pour a hundred or so cartridges on it and saw it back and forth a dozen times and pour them out on a clean towel. Fold the clean towel over the cartridges and shuffle them like bones to dry. This leaves a fine film of Dexron III to deter corrosion. Sometimes, for storage, I just clean them with mineral spirits, dry them, and then tumble in a towel dampened with a diluted liquid car wax or Mop'N'Glo. I'm getting to where I don't tumble my pistol brass much, it kind of gets a patina after a few firings and I've worked most of my loads to the point that they don't leave much residue, but using Goo Gone as a final cleaner polished them nicely and cut the lube quite well.

By the way, many MANY thanks to Crabo for suggesting the towel cleaning technique, took me a bit to figure it out but I have it perfected now!

Gear

sagacious

05-21-2010, 12:32 AM

Yup, the towel hammock works great.

I have used Goo-Gone for years to clean guns. Much nicer to use than most other solvents. It cleans off old oil/grease residue and does a great job on soot/carbon fouling. I use it for 95% of my gun cleaning chores, with the balance being copper-solvents for bore cleaning. Goo-Gone handles everything else, is not expensive, and smells real purty. All but the most stubborn lead residues around the cylinder/forcing cone will wipe off with a cotton towel and Goo-Gone.

It is probably not safe for wood finishes.

Buy it in the large refill containers and use a small squirt-bottle container when actually using/applying it. Good luck.

geargnasher

05-21-2010, 12:47 AM

sagacious

05-21-2010, 03:54 AM

Not as unsafe as acetone for wood finishes, I'm sure. I can assume that in your experience Goo-Gone doesn't have enough citric acid to harm blueing?

Where were you guys with the towel trick years ago?:grin:

Gear
Goo-Gone contains d-limonene and petroleum solvents. D-limonene is citrus-based, but not citric-acid based. No citric acid at all in Goo-Gone. D-limonene is often recommended for cleaning of machine parts, as neither the petroleum nor the limonene has any reaction with common metals. I've used it for firearm cleaning for a long time-- and in fact it's the only cleaning-solvent I use for that purpose any more. It works that well. Will not hurt bluing on steel. I haven't mentioned Goo-Gone because most folks are wedded to their gun cleaner of choice.

I thought everyone knew the towel trick. :D

Molly

05-21-2010, 02:16 PM

Goo-Gone is basicly Xylene with a tad of d-Limonene added. Xylene is so much like gasoline that you can run your car on it, with no problem or ill effects. In fact, it is a major ingredient in gasoline.

MtGun44

05-22-2010, 11:53 PM

WallyM3

05-23-2010, 12:25 AM

For comparison, I have a new bottle of "GOO GONE" here on my desk. The Stock No. is GG12 (UPC 70048 77112). Its viscosity is virtually indistinguishable from Kerosene.

a.squibload

05-23-2010, 01:12 AM

Citric acid at local brewing supply almost $3 / 2oz bag.
Found here for $4 / lb +$8 shipping, 1lb bag would be 75¢ / oz.
http://www.nutsonline.com/cookingbaking/salts/citric-acid.html?gclid=CP26pbC656ECFQlZiAodpETsIg
I will keep looking, they only ship ups or fedex.

Also called "lemon salt".

Found on fleabay, 1 lb bag w/shipping $11 or 69¢ / oz. Getting better.

FYI: from their post:
"Contact with dry citric acid or with concentrated solutions can result in skin
and eye irritation, so protective clothing should be worn when handling these
materials."
Also said it can be used to clean brass, copper, and carpets. They recommend 1 pound per gallon of water for carpet stains!

---

Even better, 40¢ / lb, 2 lb bag w/ free shipping $12.75, better hurry, they only have 4900 bags left!

http://cgi.ebay.com/2-lb-32-oz-Citric-Acid-Premium-Grade-A-Food-Grade_W0QQitemZ250403114730QQcategoryZ72759QQcmdZV iewItemQQ_trksidZp4340.m8QQ_trkparmsZalgo%3DMW%26i ts%3DC%26itu%3DUCC%26otn%3D20%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D 8342538672032433072

sagacious

05-23-2010, 01:15 AM

I'm starting to think that my Goo Gone is something different than what you are talking about. My stuff is very thick paste, not quite peanut butter but much thicker than honey. This is why I thinned it with water to try on the case necks. Is the stuff you are talking about much lower viscosity than this? I can't imagine cleaning guns with this stuff, way too thick.

Bill
Bill,
OK, no worries-- I see what the problem is. Here's what I'm talking about:
http://www.magicamerican.com/googone/catalog/googonecleaners.aspx

Back on post #35 of this thread I provided a link and suggested the liquid bulk-package Goo-Gone. It's a thin liquid as Wally noted above. That's the stuff you want. Very hand to have around. The ingredients xylene and d-limonene are about the best tar-removers available, which is why I suggested it for your chore. A bottle lasts a long time because just a little bit is usually effective on most everything. I use the 8oz squirt-top bottle and refill it from the quart size.

It makes light work of cleaning soot and grime off pistols/revolvers after shooting lead handloads. Well worth a try.

Hope that clears it up! Regards and best of luck. :)

WallyM3

05-23-2010, 01:16 AM

Group buy on citric acid?

madsenshooter

05-23-2010, 07:39 AM

$2.25/14.6oz, + shipping. http://www.qcsupply.com/qcsupply/browse/productDetailWithPicker.jsp?productId=540923&categoryId=&fromPage=search Put here as it appears some of you missed my post from page 2. I've used it for years in printing to lower the pH of lithographic fountain solutions. It was my secret solution for use when anodized plates came out. The oxide portion of the aluminum oxide wants either carbon (ink, which causes background toning) or hydrogen, just like the metal oxides in your melting pot. Only recently have the fountain solution companies caught up with what I discovered 20 years ago, a lower pH works better.

WallyM3

05-23-2010, 08:49 AM

I did. It shows up as Post #34, p.2 on my computer. Thanks for repeating it. At that price, why look further.

Doc Highwall

05-23-2010, 11:43 AM

I tried the Lemi Shine and it worked great. So yesterday I went to the Home Depot and bought a 5gal paint bucket with lid and a 2 1/2 gal paint bucket with a wire handle that fit inside the 5gal bucket. When I got home I drilled a bunch of 5/16holes in the bottom and on the sides at the very bottom for drainage in the 2 1/2gal bucket to act like a strainer and it worked great. I mixed up 3gal of water with 12 table spoons of the Lemi Shine and let the cases soak for 4 hours and then washed them with a small squirt of dish soap with a good rinse and then put them in the tumbler filled with the lizard litter for about 1/2 hour and they look like new cases now. I would like to know what some body here suggested to put in with the lizard litter to get ride of the dust, I think it was a dryer sheet.

WallyM3

05-23-2010, 12:01 PM

Drier sheets have anti-static stuff that I don't want on my cases. I suspect, but don't know that it's silicone based.

I found that if I cut one sheet of paper toweling into 4 roughly equal squares, the toweling picks up an awful lot of "dirt" and the bowl walls (Dillon 2000) are clean.

I got that tip recently and I believe on this Forum, but can't remember who offered it. It was a great suggestion. I wish I could give credit.

Doc Highwall

05-23-2010, 12:15 PM

Thanks WallyM3, I have the same tumbler.

WallyM3

05-23-2010, 12:23 PM

This one's the old FL-2000B model, still going strong.

cheese1566

05-23-2010, 12:45 PM

Went to Wally world and found one can of LemiShine on the shelf.
Next to it, I found a liquid cleaner for dishwashers called Dishwasher Magic. It is a liquid and states ingredients are "Active ingredients (citric acid), 25%; other ingredients, 75%". The MSDS sheet only lists citric acid on the data ingredients. It is 12 ounces for $3.97.
http://www.summitbrands.com/brands/Dishwashermagic.aspx

Murphy

05-23-2010, 03:23 PM

JesseCJC

05-23-2010, 04:13 PM

yes, nickle works fine and citric acid is what lemishine is so they are interchangeable

runfiverun

05-23-2010, 04:24 PM

i went the lemishine and lemon juice with a touch of liquid dish soap route followed with the vibrator for about an hour on some dead mili 308 brass.
this does work well.
i wasn't sure about proportions so i just threw some of each in till the water turned a bit green.
hot water works much better than cold,
and this does clean the gunk from inside the case.

madsenshooter

05-23-2010, 05:13 PM

For those of you thinking about going the ultrasonic cleaner route, Harbor Freight has the 2.5L model on sale, $20 off. http://www.harborfreight.com/catalogsearch/result/?category=&q=ultrasonic+cleaner

Doc Highwall

05-23-2010, 06:56 PM

I am getting ready for the next precision rifle match and seating gas checks that I annealed and I was thinking about putting the gas checks into the Lemi Shine to clean the oxidation off from them. I think I will find a small strainer that will hold 1000 gas checks and try it out.

a.squibload

05-23-2010, 10:26 PM

Group buy on citric acid?

There is a Fleabay seller offering a pallet full, 1000 lbs, works out to about 11¢/oz.

I settled for 2lb/$11.25 w/free shipping, about 35¢/oz.

I got a Dietz lantern yesterday for $4, a little rusty. Might dunk the whole thing in a citric solution.
If that works I think I'll give it a try on my Blazer roof, sand a little, blow off dust, then swab on the citric for a while.
After rinse & dry I don't suppose that would keep paint from sticking?

By this time the Blazer might be allergic to paint anyhow.

WallyM3

05-23-2010, 10:29 PM

I think we got to diminishing marginal utility on my idea pretty quickly. (LOL)

sagacious

05-23-2010, 10:40 PM

I haven't gone back thru and read the entire thread yet, but has anyone given any thoughts to trying this on nickle plated brass?

I've got a pretty good size batch of nickle .38's and wonder how it'd work with either the citric acid or Lemi Shine?

Murphy
I tried the citric on nickle cases, it works fine. Safe for nickel.

I also tried the citric on some nickel-plated brass parts (not cartridge cases), and it worked fine. No discoloration or other problems, just cleaned the nickel nicely.

sagacious

05-23-2010, 10:46 PM

...
After rinse & dry I don't suppose that would keep paint from sticking?

By this time the Blazer might be allergic to paint anyhow.

As far as I am aware, the citric should wash off completely. Should make the primer adhere well. Always best to confirm something like this with a specialist who does auto painting/refinishing. Good luck.

sagacious

05-23-2010, 10:48 PM

I think we got to diminishing marginal utility on my idea pretty quickly. (LOL)

Not a bad idea at all, Wally, but looks like folks sure are turning up some great sources for citric acid. It's kind of nice that it's easy to find!

WallyM3

05-23-2010, 10:51 PM

For once, sag. For once. (LOL)

a.squibload

05-24-2010, 04:43 AM

...Always best to confirm something like this with a specialist who does auto painting/refinishing. Good luck.

Specialist??? I was thinking of Hammerite from a rattlecan!
I do have a spray gun from Harbor Fright, never used it, afraid the paint will cost more than $6.
Gotta do something though, otherwise it will rust through in a few more years...

sagacious

05-24-2010, 07:54 PM

Specialist??? I was thinking of Hammerite from a rattlecan!
I do have a spray gun from Harbor Fright, never used it, afraid the paint will cost more than $6.
Gotta do something though, otherwise it will rust through in a few more years...

Go for it then! :) The citric will remove the rust, but you may have to make a dam using tape or some such to keep a good puddle of citric soaking on the rust for a while. Just wiping a bit on likely won't get it. Good luck, and let us know how it goes!

Doc Highwall

05-24-2010, 09:50 PM

I annealed my gas checks today and soaked them in the Lemi Shine after for an hour and they came out nice and pink colored.

MtGun44

05-25-2010, 12:15 AM

sagacious,

I looked at your Goo-Gone. Mine is a very thick paste "hand soap". I'll see if I can find
the liquid form here locally.

Bill

sagacious

05-25-2010, 12:39 AM

Bill,
The hardware stores, office-supple stores, etc, carry Goo-Gone in my area.

Here's a possible source in your neck of the woods, with an outlet in KC. The site has a store locator. They carry the 8oz, quart, and gallon size. Good luck.

http://www.marbeck.com/cleaners_household_goo_gone.html

MtGun44

05-25-2010, 05:32 PM

I know Marbeck without even going to their site. They are a specialty store that sells
a lot of appliance repair parts, and also a lot of general housewares and cleaning
supplies. Fits right into their line.

Thanks.

Bill

a.squibload

05-26-2010, 01:15 AM

Fleabay has tons of the stuff, I got a couple 3oz bottles to try it out, about $4 with shipping.
Sat right here sippin my, uh, coffee.

a.squibload

05-27-2010, 09:24 PM

I soaked the lantern, didn't notice any change 'til I wiped it with a paper towel, a lot of the rust just wiped off.
Maybe I'll try it on brass...

sagacious

05-27-2010, 10:01 PM

I soaked the lantern, didn't notice any change 'til I wiped it with a paper towel, a lot of the rust just wiped off.
Maybe I'll try it on brass...
Give it another soak. Try either a slightly stronger solution or use a heated solution. When heated the citric is a LOT more active on rust. Give it an occasional stir while soaking.

For really serious rust removal, you can either mix a 10% solution, or make a saturated solution. Add 3ozs citric per qt water for an approx 10% solution. For a saturated solution, just sprinkle the citric acid into the water until no more will dissolve. Always add the acid to the water, never pour the water on the acid. Use eye protection when mixing citric acid in this concentration.

Either of those option should rip right through the most stubborn rust. Good luck.

DLCTEX

05-28-2010, 08:03 PM

After I did some brass I soaked our shower head in it to get out the scale that forms from our hard water. Cleaned it a lot better and faster than lime away.

copternadley

05-28-2010, 10:57 PM

Thats a nice info.

wistlepig1

05-28-2010, 11:53 PM

Today, I found citric acid at Ace Hardware in the canning section. I put some "range brass" in it for about 2 hrs. The acid was at about 130 deg (warm). The brass looked clean and had a nice shine to them. I had gotten in hurry to get the brass in the acid and hadn't deprimmed it(wife was wanting to go to supper). I will retest for 2 hrs to see if it cleans the pockets and report back.
I had put 1 full teaspoon full of acid into 1 gallon of water. Martin

sagacious

05-29-2010, 01:11 AM

Sounds good. I cleaned some military brass recently, and the citric cleaned the residue from the primer pockets. I mixed the solution at 2 teasoons per quart, which would be 8 teaspoons per gallon. Good luck.

cbrick

05-29-2010, 03:08 AM

Can't be any wonder why I love this forum.

I bought the Hornady Sonic cleaner and a quart of their sonic cleaner, just got it a few days ago. First thing I noticed on the cleaner label was "citric acid". I mixed it according the instructions and threw in about 300 old hornet cases. The timer only goes to 480 seconds and I ran it twice and while the outside of the cases looked great the primer pockets and the inside didn't show a lot of improvement. I doubled the concentration of cleaner and ran through two more cycles, better but not living up to the advertising claims.

I tried a different approach and filled the machine with enough Greased Lightning cleaner ($8.00 a gallon) and put in more hornet brass. One 480 second cycle and the brass was perfectly clean inside and out, primer pockets and all were spotless but the brass wasn't shiny like the Hornady cleaner made it. I added a little of the Hornady cleaner to Greased lightning and put in the last of the Hornet brass, in one 480 second cycle it was cleaner and shinier than the day it was brand new. I rinsed all the brass well in warm tap water and let it dry and it water spotted (hard water here). 15 minutes in the tumbler and all the water spotting was gone.

Then I found this thread.

The Hornady unit does get fairly warm but I don't think there's a heater in it, just gets warm from the sonic vibrations. Tbe sheet that came with the unit says 42,000 Hz.

Off tomorrow to find citric acid and use hot water. I'll test the citric acid and hot water vs. the sonic cleaner, citric acid and hot water to see how much the vibrating helps . . . or not.

A while back I picked up a used mold on the cheap and it has a fair amount of rust, mostly on the outside and not the cavities . . . Hhhmmm.

Rick

a.squibload

05-29-2010, 03:57 AM

Give it another soak. Try either a slightly stronger solution or use a heated solution...

Sorry to hijack the thread for a lantern with holes in the tank (saw light through several small holes!),
but it's interesting to see that it actually works.
I used hot water but a weak solution more suited for brass, 2 tbsp per gal +1 tbsp.
Had to fill a 5 gal bucket so the lantern could stand up.
I'll probably try it again as the citric is not expensive, and I have JB Weld.
If enough rust is removed I can coat the tiny holes from the outside, squishing some into the holes.
JB is used on Jeep gas tanks, should be good enough for an oil lantern.

All the empty brass I own has been recently tumbled, but some of the older 44 brass has a patina, think I'll dunk it.

PS: I mentioned the sale on Ultrasonic cleaners, the ol' lady's ears perked up. She makes jewelry. Might have to get one.

sagacious

05-29-2010, 05:13 AM

The Hornady unit does get fairly warm but I don't think there's a heater in it, just gets warm from the sonic vibrations. Tbe sheet that came with the unit says 42,000 Hz.

Off tomorrow to find citric acid and use hot water. I'll test the citric acid and hot water vs. the sonic cleaner, citric acid and hot water to see how much the vibrating helps . . . or not.

A while back I picked up a used mold on the cheap and it has a fair amount of rust, mostly on the outside and not the cavities . . . Hhhmmm.

Rick
Rick,
Ultrasonic vibration has the same affect as heat on acids-- it increases their activity by making the acid molecules hit the metal at a greater speed. That makes for an accelerated reaction rate. Ultrasonics and pure citric acid should give powerful brass cleaning.

Citric acid and untrasonics may be too powerful for rust removal from a precision tool like a mold. A simple soak should remove all the rust, and be sure to check and stir it every hour. When the rust is gone, remove it from the solution-- don't let it soak overnight when you won't be checking it. Good luck.

sagacious

05-29-2010, 05:21 AM

Sorry to hijack the thread for a lantern with holes in the tank (saw light through several small holes!),
but it's interesting to see that it actually works.
...
PS: I mentioned the sale on Ultrasonic cleaners, the ol' lady's ears perked up. She makes jewelry. Might have to get one.
Squibload,
No worries, mate, not a hijack. Glad to hear of your success. And best of luck on the US cleaner. Ultrasonics really gets helps clean flux and scale out of all the crevices in silver-soldered or brazed jewelry, and removes every speck of metal polish and residue from intricate findings and bails, etc....

wistlepig1

05-29-2010, 10:15 PM

I uppered the acid to 6 tsp and repeated the range brass. The outsides look good, inside was fair, but the primer pockets were dirty. I use a small steel brush on them, ran tape water in them and they were clean. The acid had lossened the crud and it came right out with no work. I think I will add 2 more 2 tsps of acid and start fresh with some more range brass. All adds were to 1 Gallon.

blackthorn

05-30-2010, 09:10 AM

Did you add heaping teaspoons or level teaspoons?

Doc Highwall

05-30-2010, 11:57 AM

I used one level table spoon per quart which is a mild solution, you could even double that. You have to take into consideration how long you are going to let the cases soak, if you want to do it for a short time you will need a stronger solution that will require more safety measures. One thing I would do is make sure that the primer is removed first by either sizing or a universal decapping die. Another thing I learned here is to use Lizard litter from Petco in the tumbler that does not get stuck in the flash holes, just one half hour in the tumbler after the Lemi Shine and a rinse in water the cases are nice and clean.

DLCTEX

05-30-2010, 09:46 PM

I cleaned up several thousand cases a friend brought me from a range. Some of it had probably been there for a few years and was dark brown. Twenty minutes in the crock pot with Lemi Shine took the tarnish off and the dark ones are reddish colored. I put the darker ones in the tumbler first and will take a look after a while. The just dirty ones are shiny already.
The brown ones that turned reddish came out of the tumbler a coppery brass color and look great.

WallyM3

05-30-2010, 09:53 PM

Somewhere else in this thread, I think, is the advice that the copper colored blotches after immersion indicate areas of zinc loss from corrosion.

If they polish out, then no harm.

If they don't, then the case could be suspect.

Frankly, I've seen few such spots so far that don't disappear on tumbling. I mean to find some nasty brass to make a test. The WWII 50s my brother-in-law brought up from a Florida dive are too far gone.

wistlepig1

05-30-2010, 10:13 PM

I am at 8 tsp's per gallon, the case are nice and clean in and out but the pocket remain dirty. The pockets DO clean much easier now. The brass is clean but not shiny but I would guess that a short trip in a case viberator would take care of that----- if so inclined.

WallyM3

05-30-2010, 10:36 PM

wist: that's been my experience, too. I get eye-popping cases, inside and out, but it seems that there isn't a chemically friendly "magic bullet" for the primer pockets.

I find I still need to mechanically clean them somehow.

Pretty tragic, eh? (LOL) I've started doing a double wash. That is, before and after the primer pocket cleaning. I do start with decapped cases.

sagacious

05-30-2010, 11:12 PM

I recently cleaned some military brass with dirty primer pockets. It was once-fired (staked primers) but was very old. The primer residue in the pockets was pretty crusty from sitting so long in a humid storage area before I got the brass. The citric solution completely dissolved the primer residue and the gunk even fizzed a bit as it dissolved. Cleaned right down to the metal. I was pleasantly surprised.

Accumulated primer residue from repeated firings is a whole 'nother animal, but adding the citric wash to one's routine may be of considerable use here.

I have been regularly cleaning my rifle brass with an acid wash-- either the BC phoshporic/glycolic wash, or the citric wash for years. I have noticed that the primer ash does not seem to build up to a point that I have to clean the primer pockets separately. Some of the remaining residue seems to flake off on it's own after the acid wash and drying, as though the acid wash loosens it. It may be that the next primer firing blasts much of the loosened/flaked gunk out so that it doesn't build up.

wistlepig1

05-30-2010, 11:37 PM

Edubya

05-31-2010, 07:41 AM

I have been regularly cleaning my rifle brass with an acid wash-- either the BC phoshporic/glycolic wash, or the citric wash for years. I have noticed that the primer ash does not seem to build up to a point that I have to clean the primer pockets separately. Some of the remaining residue seems to flake off on it's own after the acid wash and drying, as though the acid wash loosens it. It may be that the next primer firing blasts much of the loosened/flaked gunk out so that it doesn't build up.

Folks Take note:Sagacious has been holding out on you for almost a year now~! Are we going to let him by with this? Isn't there some way to get the rest of his secrets out of him? Maybe we can "waterboard" him!
EW

nighthunter

05-31-2010, 10:36 AM

sagacious

05-31-2010, 01:55 PM

Folks Take note:Sagacious has been holding out on you for almost a year now~! Are we going to let him by with this? Isn't there some way to get the rest of his secrets out of him? Maybe we can "waterboard" him!
EW
Oh no, the jig is up! Alright, but if it comes to waterboarding, be sure to use Johnny Walker Black. Anything less will just make me angry.

sagacious

05-31-2010, 02:42 PM

I haven't read every post but I did read most. I have a question. If the citric acid solution goes down the drain after useing it how will it effect my septic system? I'm sure I'm not the only person here that could use an answer to this.

Nighthunter
Nighthunter,
Yes, that is an important question. I mention septic system compatibility in post #74. It's buried way back in there. A search for "septic" will turn it up (click "show post").

Fortunately, citric acid is biodegradable and mild solutions appear totally safe for septic systems. It biodegrades without any effluent treatment process and without creating any toxins.

Some drain cleaners listed as "septic safe" and "gray water safe" apparently use up to 15% citric acid, with a pH of 2.0, which is much stronger than anything needed to clean the most dirty, tarnished brass. The brass cleaning solutions recommended here (1 or 2 tsps per quart water) are fairly mild, and less acidic than lemon juice. So, no worries about septic system damage. Citric acid is not like bleach or antimicrobial soaps. Lemishine, which uses citric acid, is listed as safe for septic systems.

If one uses a strong solution, it can be diluted with more water before pouring down the drain. If one is still somewhat anxious about citric acid, the solution can be neutralized with baking soda. I find that it takes twice the amount of baking soda as citric acid to neutralize the solution, so if you use 2tsps citric per quart, add 4tsps baking soda per quart to neutralize.

Hope this helps, good luck. :drinks:

Rock

05-31-2010, 03:09 PM

Why are you de-priming your dirty cases before cleaning them?

I would think a goal is to keep the junk/crud/abrasives out of the sizing dies. Thus I planned to citric acid wash, dry, tumble, then head to the sizing/depriming die.

What am I missing here?

WallyM3

05-31-2010, 03:19 PM

my case (NPI), it is to expose the primer pocket to the cleaner. I use one of the decapping-only dies, clean, dry, then size.

wistlepig1

05-31-2010, 05:09 PM

my case (NPI), it is to expose the primer pocket to the cleaner. I use one of the decapping-only dies, clean, dry, then size.

That's what I do to and for the same reason.

pjh421

05-31-2010, 07:22 PM

This is an excellent thread. I just collected the stuff to do this yesterday and processed my first batch today. Works great!

Just to keep it simple I use a quarter cup measuring cup to mix a gallon in a crock pot my wife let me have. I made a strainer for the brass to sit in while cleaning from a plastic ice cream bucket. Thanks!

Paul

sagacious

05-31-2010, 11:29 PM

my case (NPI), it is to expose the primer pocket to the cleaner. I use one of the decapping-only dies, clean, dry, then size.
That's the way I do it. Helps keep grit out of the sizing dies. Good luck.

cbrick

06-02-2010, 12:07 PM

I didn't find any citric acid locally so I ordered it online, should have it by the end of the week.

In my first trials with the Hornady sonic cleaner and solution I had de-capped the brass with a universal decap die to clean the pockets. In my last trial I didn't decap, since I clean/uniform all primer pockets with a Sinclair primer pocket uniforming tool it didn't matter if the solution cleaned the pocket or not. As a side note, with the primer still in it did soften the primer residue but again, with the Sinclair tool it didn't matter.

Rick

bdbullets

06-02-2010, 02:26 PM

I am a meat cutter in a small store here and we carry citric acid in the canning supplies. It comes in a 5 oz. container and costs about $3.50. It is made by Wage's. If anyone can't find it PM me and I will get it for you for my cost plus shipping.
Bryan

Reloader06

06-05-2010, 07:03 PM

I have been a proponent of vinegar for a while now. Not any more this is MUCH better/easier. Thanks for all the info. Gotta love this place!

Matt

NSP64

06-06-2010, 12:03 PM

After going back and rereading posts I found some Lemi shine in the Dish washer detergent aisle:groner: At walmart.$3.50. Poured some in a tuperware bowl and added water. Works great. I bought some pantyhose at the same place for $0.38. Then it dawned on me. Why not dip the swagged .223 bullets I got from some people on the site. ( discolored from annealing) They look almost like High end bullets now!!
I nuke it in the microwave for 30 sec to heat up. then place whatever I want cleaned in there. Pull the pantyhose out after 5min & rinse. then dump on towel to dry. Cover with lid when done to save for the next time.
Once I knew where to look, I see it was everywhere right under my nose.

sagacious

06-06-2010, 05:30 PM

Then it dawned on me. Why not dip the swagged .223 bullets I got from some people on the site. ( discolored from annealing) They look almost like High end bullets now!!
That's what I do. I run a citric wash on the fired 22lr 'jackets' after annealing. Shines 'em up right purty.

pjh421

06-07-2010, 10:24 AM

Reloader06,
Much better indeed. Now I use the ultra-sonic cleaner and Lemi-shine. It just works faster and there's a thermal circuit on it too.

I had some brake rotors I wanted to clean up. They were pretty scaly and I had mixed results with the electrolytic de-ruster. It kind of spot cleans and takes forever. A 24 hour soak in citric acid cleaned them thoroughly, inside and out. My neighbor gave me a very rusty bench vise that had been in his storage shed for decades. It soaked in Lemi-shine for a day and I hosed it off. After drying with compressed air it got a coat of primer and then some red top coat. It looks new!

Paul

cbrick

06-08-2010, 06:58 PM

A while back I picked up an RCBS used mold on the cheap cause it was a bit rusted up. The cavities looked good though so I bought it and have been pondering on how best to clean it up.

I had already scrubbed it with denatured alcohol and bronze brush, mineral spirits and brush but once dry it was still rusty. Next I tried Kroil and that did nothing for it, Kroil is not a rust remover.

Was considering naval jelly on the outside when I discovered this thread. I ordered citric acid online for $4.00 a pound and mixed up some with hot water and poured it into the Hornady Sonic Cleaner, in went the mold. Amazing, the solution was clear but as soon as I turned on the machine the rust lifted off the mold and hovered like a cloud. One 480 second cycle (8 minutes) and I rinsed it well in alcohol & blew it off with compressed air.

No rust, not a speck anywhere. It left a bit of an odd color where the rust was but the rust was gone. The cavities were bright & shiny, in fact it almost looked like an aluminum mold inside the cavities.

For cleaning brass in the sonic cleaner I had ordered the Hornady cleaner solution with the machine and was less than impressed, it did work, kinda, but at $23.00 a quart I'll be buying no more of that. The powdered citric acid worked far better, far faster and much, much cheaper.

Thanks a ton for this thread sag, extremely useful info.

Rick

kbstenberg

06-08-2010, 07:45 PM

Another use for Limashine, Dishwashers. According to the package that is the main purpose of limashine. The wife used the first 2 packs before i could say anything.
Kevin

WallyM3

06-08-2010, 07:54 PM

Now that's cold!

sagacious

06-08-2010, 08:42 PM

Rick,
Fantastic! Very glad to hear of your success. Congrats on breathing some life back into an old mold. I get a similar 'white haze' in the areas on stainless steel that previously had discoloration from annealing.

Brass cleaner, rust remover, mold restorer, inexpensive and effective-- it's almost too good to be true!

sagacious

06-08-2010, 08:44 PM

My neighbor gave me a very rusty bench vise that had been in his storage shed for decades. It soaked in Lemi-shine for a day and I hosed it off. After drying with compressed air it got a coat of primer and then some red top coat. It looks new!

Paul
Nice work on the rotors and vice. I reckon your neighbor would scarcely believe it's the same old bench vice!

Turk

06-10-2010, 04:22 PM

Greetings group: I got some pool chemicals today at the waste disposal place. Iv'e got some Sodium hydrogen carbonate,some sodium carbonate, and some sodium bisulfate. Would any of these work? or what else could I use them for? TIA---Turk

zardoz

06-10-2010, 04:46 PM

I have some powdered citric acid purchased from the canning section of a local grocery.

For the purposes of cleaning brass, in a boiling hot solution, would a stainless steel pot be safe to use?

felix

06-10-2010, 05:12 PM

Yes, sodium bi-sulfate should work. If too slowly, add heat. ALWAYS keep the cases moving slowly when in the solution. Rinse with plain water. Distilled water would be best. ... felix

Do NOT use the carbonates or bi-carbonates, sodium or otherwise. They could oxidize the cases to blackish. ... felix

felix

06-10-2010, 05:13 PM

Yes, stainless cooking steel should be fine indeed. ... felix

sagacious

06-10-2010, 06:29 PM

Iv'e got some Sodium hydrogen carbonate,some sodium carbonate, and some sodium bisulfate. Would any of these work?
TIA---Turk
Turk,
The sodium bisulfate might work to clean brass-- but you're on your own as far as what the actual results will be. Don't commit any large or important batches of brass until you know for sure what you'll get, or it if could affect the brass negatively.

If one wanted to approximate the pH of the citric solution, one might try mixing about one 1/2oz of NaHSO4 per liter of hot water (a liter and a quart are close enough for our purposes). Myself, I'd start with half that amount per liter and see how it goes with a small batch of brass. Soak, rinse, let dry. Observe the brass for 5 days to see if it undergoes any color changes that might indicate the presence of an acidic residue. Hope it works out-- I would be very cautious when committing brass to this NaHSO4 solution. Citric acid is inexpensive, and not only cleans but protects brass against corrosion.

I have tried sodium carbonates on brass. The sodium carbonates (Na2CO3) in strong solutions can leach copper from brass to form copper carbonates (CuCO3). This is not good, as it invisbly weakens the brass. The brass will not shine up, usually does not change color, and the solution does not remove powder fouling. The solution eventually turns blue, and what's happening is essentially that the copper is slowly being removed from the brass and turned into dissolved tarnish. This is the exact opposite of what we want to happen! :)

Use eye protection when mixing/working with those chemicals. Good luck.

sagacious

06-10-2010, 06:59 PM

I have some powdered citric acid purchased from the canning section of a local grocery.

For the purposes of cleaning brass, in a boiling hot solution, would a stainless steel pot be safe to use?
Zardoz,
Unfortunately, a stainless pot would be neither "safe" nor desirable. Plastic or glass is much better.

At boiling hot temps, citric acid can heavily etch stainless steel. If the finish of the ss pot is no concern, one is still reducing the effectiveness of the solution, as the strength of the solution is divided between the brass and the ss, and weakened by the dissolved iron citrate. Since citric has a high affinity for iron, you can expect diminished cleaning action on brass, and on any of the brass that's in direct physical contact with the ss pot.

Here's another rub: The citric acid solution will dissolve any copper compounds that are tarnish and no longer contribute to to the strength of the brass. That's OK, but this dissolved copper will then plate right onto the stainless steel. In the working solution, this copper transfers into and out of the solution with as new batches of brass are soaked. This diminishes the cleaning potential.

I wasn't sure when/if this would come up, but this is probably a good time. A citric solution used on iron should not be used for cleaning copper, or vice-versa. Keep citric-for-iron and citric-for-brass solutions separate.

If you want to try an experiment, use a citric solution on brass until it turns blue. Then dip a perfectly clean piece of carbon steel into the solution-- bam! it'll plate copper on there instantly. It will do this at room temp for carbon steel, and at higher temps for stainless. Can be useful if you want to copper-plate something, but can make a real mess if you don't.

You're better off with a plastic pail, or a Pyrex glass bowl, or you could use a non-stick coated aluminum pot to heat the solution. You could use an enamel-coated pot, but the finish might (possibly) eventually be etched by the solution-- this will only affect the enamel coating, and not the brass.

Hope this helps, good luck.

zardoz

06-10-2010, 07:25 PM

Thanks Sagacious. I was wondering about that. Can just never tell about those covalent electrons, similar electronegativities, and what not...

I just now remembered there was a new 12 cup pyrex spare coffee carafe, still in the original box in storage. I only use the 4 cup now, and the original 12 cup coffee maker is long gone. That sounds like the ticket here. Now if I can just remember where I hid it.

Thanks again for the info.

Gelandangan

06-10-2010, 07:40 PM

If you want to try an experiment, use a citric solution on brass until it turns blue. Then dip a perfectly clean piece of carbon steel into the solution-- bam! it'll plate copper on there instantly. It will do this at room temp for carbon steel, and at higher temps for stainless. Can be useful if you want to copper-plate something, but can make a real mess if you don't.

THANKS!!!!

I have been using Blackfast instant room temperature blacking compound for carbon steel for years.
I learned that they are copper compound, but I never found out what it is.

Now, I would try the citric acid solution and see if this would work.

pjh421

06-10-2010, 09:28 PM

Soaking rusted cadmium-coated fasteners in Lemi Shine turns them black. Probably liberates the Cd and makes hazmat. I won't do that any more.

Paul

cbrick

06-10-2010, 11:16 PM

I wasn't sure when/if this would come up, but this is probably a good time. A citric solution used on iron should not be used for cleaning copper, or vice-versa. Keep citric-for-iron and citric-for-brass solutions separate.

If you want to try an experiment, use a citric solution on brass until it turns blue. Then dip a perfectly clean piece of carbon steel into the solution-- bam! it'll plate copper on there instantly. It will do this at room temp for carbon steel, and at higher temps for stainless. Can be useful if you want to copper-plate something, but can make a real mess if you don't.

:coffeecom :???: :sad: :holysheep Highly confused now.

Ok, I did an experiment with the powdered citric acid but first, the tub in the Hornady Sonic Cleaner is stainless steel, inside of that fits a plastic screen tub. The instructions say to never place brass directly on the stainless steel, always use the plastic tub inside the stainless tub.

The experiment, the rusty mold I cleaned up (my last post in this thread) was in the same solution as I had used for some 308 brass. Today I got 3 brand new molds from Midway, all 30 cal, 1 RCBS and 2 Lyman. I had such good luck cleaning up the rusty mold the new and oily RCBS went into the solution (now cold) and I ran it for one 480 second cycle. Removed it and rinsed it in denatured alcohol to remove any trace of citric acid and dried with compressed air. Not a trace of oil left on it or copper for that matter. I pre-heated it and it started dropping perfect boolits right from the get go. This is a great mold, RCBS has been putting out excellent molds lately.

Next one of the Lyman's went in the same solution and then the alcohol. Pre-heated it also was dropping perfectly filled out boolits with the first pour. No oil, no wrinkles. That's about 50 rounds of 308 brass and three molds in the same solution which by now was starting to get dark so I dumped it.

All three molds took on a bit of an odd coloring but nothing that looks anything like copper plating, more of a minor case hardening effect.

I have one new (and oily) Lyman left which I will do with clean solution as another experiment. If having had the brass in the first solution caused the discoloring I'll know with this last mold. If either the citric acid or the brass in it caused any harm to the iron mold blocks I can't see it and they are casting perfectly dimensioned boolits that fall out of the mold. All of the molds by the way were in the plastic tub and not directly on the stainless.

If down the road I find that citric acid in way damages the iron molds I guess this will have been an expensive experiment. For right now all looks good, by far the easiest and fastest oily molds I've ever made totally oil free.

Rick

sagacious

06-11-2010, 12:37 AM

Highly confused now.
Rick,
OK pard, let me see if I can sort this out. The citric won't damage the molds as you treated them for only 480 seconds. What the citric acid does, you can see with your eyes. There's no 'hidden damage' that's only visible later. That's one of the great things about citric.

Looks like Hornady's instructions match mine almost exactly, and I haven't read their litertature on their sonic cleaner. So, all clear there.

Your solution was barely used (50 cases and a few molds). As I wrote above, if you continue to use it with brass until the solution turns blue..... and you put steel into the solution..... it will copperplate the steel instantly.

I recommend that folks keep the citric/copper and citric/iron solutions separate, because eventually someone will put their fancy steel mold or rusty heirloom micrometer into a vat of dirty blue citric acid and it'll make a copperplated mess of it, and they'll post something almong the lines of, "$%@&! Sagacious, why didn't you tell me!!" So, everyone has been warned. Citric acid is inexpensive, so keep the solutions separate if you reuse your solution for a while.

The 'case-hardening color' on your mold may not be from copper, as your solution didn't have much dissolved copper. The surfaces may now be raw naked steel in some areas, so take care to prevent rusting if you live in a humid area.

I hope this will dispel any lingering confusion. Regards, and good shooting.

Turk

06-11-2010, 03:47 PM

What would you have with 1/2 gallon water + 1/2 gallon vinegar + 2 oz citric acid powder +two drops dish soap. would that work good? TIA--Turk

MtGun44

06-11-2010, 06:20 PM

The vinegar is acetic acid and the citric acid does roughly the same thing. No need for the vinegar, I would think.
Soap - not sure if needed, don't think it would hurt.

sagacious

06-11-2010, 07:52 PM

What would you have with 1/2 gallon water + 1/2 gallon vinegar + 2 oz citric acid powder +two drops dish soap. would that work good? TIA--Turk

Vinegar contains acetic acid, which leaves an acetate and/or acid residue on the cases. That prevents passivation.

Everyone has heard of the "cleaning power of lemon." That's mostly from the citric acid. Soap is not needed when using citric acid, but I don't think it would hurt.

One of the advantages of citric acid is that it cleans brass very well at low concentrations. The rule of thumb for citric and brass is that increasing the soak time is generally as-effective as increasing the solution strength, but more economical. There is always the natural drive to "improve upon" a good thing, but consider that the acetic acid cancels most of the benefits of the citric acid. Good luck.

Molly

06-11-2010, 11:14 PM

[QUOTE=cbrick;918626 For right now all looks good, by far the easiest and fastest oily molds I've ever made totally oil free.[/QUOTE]

Try bringing a sauce pan with a couple inches of water and a few drops of dish detergent to a boil. Then open the blocks (on handles) and immerse them in the solution. When the boil returns, whip the mold out of the solution and dry it instantly on a cotton cloth. It will be so free of oil that you have to keep it hot or it will become susceptable to rusting at room temperature.

cbrick

06-12-2010, 02:00 AM

Try bringing a sauce pan with a couple inches of water and a few drops of dish detergent to a boil. Then open the blocks (on handles) and immerse them in the solution. When the boil returns, whip the mold out of the solution and dry it instantly on a cotton cloth. It will be so free of oil that you have to keep it hot or it will become susceptable to rusting at room temperature.

The sonic cleaner is faster than just waiting for the water to boil . . . the first time. Plus, no soap residue, rust or anything else left in the cavities.

I wasn't sure when/if this would come up, but this is probably a good time. A citric solution used on iron should not be used for cleaning copper, or vice-versa. Keep citric-for-iron and citric-for-brass solutions separate.
It seems the case hardening appearance on the first three molds was due to having cleaned brass with the solution first and sag was right, keep separate solution for brass & iron. Doesn't seem to have caused any harm, just the coloring.

This morning I cleaned up the Hornady Sonic Cleaner & filled with fresh citric acid solution. I completely dis-assembled the new & oily Lyman 2 cav and ran it for one cycle (480 seconds), rinsed in denatured alcohol & blew dry with compressed air, screws & all.

The mold came out bright silver, not a spec of color anywhere, even inside threaded holes are bright & shiny.

I'm delighted this works as well as it does, new oily molds are the reason I bought the sonic cleaner in the first place, cartridge cases are a secondary reason. I've now cleaned three brand new molds and one old rusted one with citric acid in the sonic cleaner and none of them needed any break in at all. Sonic cleaner, alcohol, blow dry, pre-heat and the first boolits are perfect. From taking an oily mold out of the box to starting to pre-heating it was about 12 minutes. Amazing. I have almost hated new and/or oily molds in the past, well, almost. Not any more.

Rick

357maximum

06-12-2010, 02:14 AM

This is a great method I have used it a few times now,and brought some very ugly brass back to life....................THANK YOU

FYI.....DO NOT dip your finger in the mix and touch your toungue (just to see) your toungue will still feel funny, numb and hairy several days after the fact. :oops::veryconfu[smilie=1:[smilie=b:

WallyM3

06-12-2010, 06:23 AM

Thanks for the warning. [smilie=l:

NSP64

06-13-2010, 12:48 PM

your toungue will still feel funny, numb and hairy several days after the fact. :oops::veryconfu[smilie=1:[smilie=b:

Sounds like the last time I drank Taquilla[smilie=l:

Turk

06-13-2010, 04:36 PM

what is that stuff they advertise on tv for cleaning the tarnish off of silver bowls,plates etc. looks like it works instantly

Turk

06-13-2010, 04:53 PM

was it revere copper cleaner i saw?

sagacious

06-13-2010, 06:32 PM

what is that stuff they advertise on tv for cleaning the tarnish off of silver bowls,plates etc. looks like it works instantly
You may have seen a TarnX commercial, or something with a similar active agent. It does work instantly. In the past, though, I have seen that TarnX can damage/discolor metal items left in solution too long, and can cause some eventual discoloring. I'm not 100% sure it's "safe" for cartridge brass.

My container of TarnX says it contains sulfamic acid and thiourea. Neither will passivate brass like citric will. Both compounds contain sulfur, and if any residue remains on the case, the breakdown of the residue can allow sulfur to react with the metal (this may possibly have caused the eventual discoloration I have seen). In effect, this would be the opposite of passivation.

The copper in brass readily reacts with sulfur to form copper sulfate, and this can definitely damage brass. Has anyone ever seen what happens when brass cartridge cases are stored bundled in a rubberband? The brass will eventually be damaged where the rubberband contacts it, because of the sulfur in the rubber. A rubberband in contact with copper or bronze will do the same. Sulfur and brass are not good neighbors.

The thiourea molecule has both a sulfur atom and an amine hanging off it. The amine is an ammonia derivative, and presents the possibility of forming small amounts of ammonia during storage of the brass. I am not exactly sure of the degree of risk posed, but it does not make me feel all snuggly and comfy.

Regards, and good luck.

WallyM3

06-13-2010, 06:52 PM

I have used "Copper Twinkle" in the past to clean non-cartridge brass. If all of it is not completely rinsed off, it will create verdigris in rapid order. I don't have a box handy, so I can't relate the ingredients.

For copper cookware, it's a favorite of mine. Cleans off all the schmutz, no matter what.

For cartridge brass? Not so much.

BTW, if you bind sterling silver flatware with a rubber band, it will eventually eat it's way through the silver.

.....

And sagacious, have you changed your avatar?

joatmon

06-13-2010, 07:11 PM

WallyM3

06-13-2010, 07:26 PM

That's not a good thing.

Thanks, joatmon.

.....

I was doing a little bit of idle Googling this evening, and came upon a recommendation to use Catsup/Ketchup as a brass cleaner.

Hmmm. Doesn't sound like something I'd jump on. Is there a sound reason for my skepticism?

cbrick

06-13-2010, 07:33 PM

Post 176 brings up greased lighting in the process, if you use it be sure to remove any blazer empties that might contain aluminum. Left in awhile turns all brass in the pot black(or so I've been told). Aaron

Not to worry, I haven't bought factory ammo since before they invented that silly throw away aluminum cartridge case.

Anyway, the GL was just a one time experiment. It did do an excellent job of cleaning, even the primer pockets and interior. Yep, rinsed vigorously afterward so I don't know if it turns brass black or not, it didn't before I rinsed it.

Rick

sagacious

06-13-2010, 08:23 PM

Wally,
Exactly, many of these metal cleaners work great for non-critical applications.

Good warning, silver undergoes the same reaction-- silver sulfide. The tiniest trace amount of sulfur compounds will tarnish silver rapidly. More than that will cause severe corrosion.

I didn't have an avatar. The M57 doesn't show up well in the pic, so it may be replaced.

No_1

06-13-2010, 08:40 PM

I have had the wife on the hunt for citric acid at the local Publix (grocery) and Walmart but have had no luck.

I did try some lemon juice she had on hand. As a test I put about 1/2" in a small cup then stood 1 tarnished 30/30 & 22 Hornet case in it. Within a few minutes the lower 1/2 of the cases had a noticeable difference in coloring. I would consider them as clean / tarnish free. I guess it would be more expensive than the citric acid but it will do the job for those that cannot find the powder form locally.

Robert

WallyM3

06-13-2010, 09:30 PM

sagacious

06-14-2010, 12:58 AM

Re: sagacoius:

Well, at least I noticed a change. [smilie=s:

I'm a .41 Magnum/Special nut, too. But, all the N-frames look alike to me: 27/28s, 24s, 25s, 29s, etc.

But I see that we are part of the pre-ban Ivory brotherhood.
Wally,
Yes, indeed! :-D Excuse my sterile reply above. It's's a beautiful shooting iron, with ultra-deep blue and ivory grip, but a thumbnail photo can never do justice. I may just have to get used to the fuzzy pic.

I had a great BlueDot load that I liked a lot, and then along came the 41/BD prohibition, so I'll have to start the process over again with a new powder. Do you have a favorite recipe for the 41?

sagacious

06-14-2010, 01:18 AM

I have had the wife on the hunt for citric acid at the local Publix (grocery) and Walmart but have had no luck.
...
Robert
Robert,
You may wish to see if your yellowpages lists a wine-making supply, soap-making supply, or a restaurant-supply store. There's also the LemiShine option; the active ingredient is citric acid-- get it at Walmart.

If no local supply is available, you may wish to check out the online sources. Here's a source of citric acid at $3.25/lb. http://www.brambleberry.com/Citric-Acid-P3753.aspx

Someone may have already posted that link, it seems like a very good price. If one needed to remove the rust from some large pieces of equipment, their price of $22.50/10lbs is a great deal. Good luck.

No_1

06-14-2010, 05:01 AM

Thanks Sagacious,

I have found many on-line suppliers but was looking for it local. I still have a few more places to check as well as a friend who makes wine in his garage. I will find some with time.

Robert

WallyM3

06-14-2010, 06:48 PM

sagacious,rather than divert the thread, I'll PM.

Wally.

sagacious

06-14-2010, 07:33 PM

sagacious,rather than divert the thread, I'll PM.

Wally.
Pm received, thanks!

wistlepig1

06-14-2010, 07:56 PM

No_1

06-14-2010, 08:00 PM

I did whistlepig but I guess people around here are too good to do any canning. Dad called a while ago and said he found a good deal on 25 lbs of the stuff. When it get here I will fill y'all in on it.

Robert

EMC45

06-17-2010, 10:28 AM

Will this clean tarnished J bullets? The citric acid that is...

jmh54738

06-17-2010, 04:30 PM

Please don't think i'm totally nuts, but today I cut some rhubarb for making sauce; knowing how tart it is, I made a slit in a stalk and stuck 1/2 of a really tarnished penny into the slit. In three minutes the half in the rhubarb was bright. After I cooked down the rhubarb I poured off a little of the now pink liquid (minus the pulp) into a dish and added two tarnished pennies. The result was the same bright pennies. The conclusion of these experiments was to add sufficient sugar to taste to the remaining infusion and refridgerate for later consumption. A search showed oxalic acid as the poison in the leaves and I remember oxalic acid as a bleach for stained wood, but what chemistry is at work in the juice of the rhubarb stalk? This is not a spoof posting. I do not plan large scale production, but where are my range pick up cases? John

wistlepig1

06-17-2010, 04:36 PM

No 1, 25 lbs will a 2 or 3 weeks worth for sure.:bigsmyl2: The way things are going (BHO) they better learn how to can and do other things!!??great find

sagacious

06-17-2010, 08:07 PM

Will this clean tarnished J bullets? The citric acid that is...
Yes, works very well.

sagacious

06-17-2010, 09:17 PM

...today I cut some rhubarb for making sauce; knowing how tart it is, I made a slit in a stalk and stuck 1/2 of a really tarnished penny into the slit. In three minutes the half in the rhubarb was bright.
...
what chemistry is at work in the juice of the rhubarb stalk?
JMH,
Yes, you're right about the oxalic acid. Oxalic acid is also the active ingredient in some rust removers, chrome cleaners, and metal/surface cleaners. The cleaner Barkeeper's Friend contains 5-10% oxalic acid derived from rhubarb.

Rhubarb stalks contain several non-toxic organic acids that will clean copper rapidly. Some of them will be familiar to those reading this thread, such as acetic acid, which is the same acid as in vinegar. The stuff that makes rhubarb tart is malic acid, and it works very well to remove copper tarnish. Rhubarb also contains citric acid. The pH of rhubarb juice is apparently about 3 to 3.5, which is as acidic as orange juice. More info on the chemicals in rhubarb here:
http://www.rhubarbinfo.com/rhubarb-poison.html

Generally, the chemistry of the tarnish removal is similar to that of citric acid-- some of the tarnish is reduced to pure metal, and some of the tarnish is converted to a soluble form that the water-acid solution then dissolves. Some of the rhubarb acids can be expected to leave a residue that may discolor the brass during storage, unlike pure citric acid.

Molly

06-18-2010, 03:09 AM

JMH,
Yes, you're right about the oxalic acid. Oxalic acid is also the active ingredient in some rust removers, chrome cleaners, and metal/surface cleaners. The cleaner Barkeeper's Friend contains 5-10% oxalic acid derived from rhubarb.

Rhubarb stalks contain several non-toxic organic acids that will clean copper rapidly. Some of them will be familiar to those reading this thread, such as acetic acid, which is the same acid as in vinegar. The stuff that makes rhubarb tart is malic acid, and it works very well to remove copper tarnish. Rhubarb also contains citric acid. The pH of rhubarb juice is apparently about 3 to 3.5, which is as acidic as orange juice. More info on the chemicals in rhubarb here:
http://www.rhubarbinfo.com/rhubarb-poison.html

Generally, the chemistry of the tarnish removal is similar to that of citric acid-- some of the tarnish is reduced to pure metal, and some of the tarnish is converted to a soluble form that the water-acid solution then dissolves. Some of the rhubarb acids can be expected to leave a residue that may discolor the brass during storage, unlike pure citric acid.

Actually, this is a "Duh! Why didn't I think of that?" Oxalic acid is or was sold and used commercially for cleaning corroded copper automotive radiators for many years, and may still be used. It should do an outstanding job on brass!