This is driving me CRAZY!

[crabo]

I have a Marlin 357 CB. I can shoot great groups at 50 yards with several different powders and boolit combinations. I cannot shoot a good group at 100 to save my life. Every group blows up between 50 and 100 yards.

I am resting my reciever on a bag right in front of the lever. I am using a Bunny bag in the rear. I have a good trigger. I have used 2 different Luepold scopes and know the base and rings are good. I put a couple of washers under my mainspring to make it hit a little harder. I am using new and once fired Starline brass.

The first target is at 50 yards, the second at 100 yards. It went from 1 1/4 to 8". Same batch of loads, just shot from 50 then at 100.

The third target was from the last time out and I could not repeat it. Same components, same boolits, same everything.

The only think I can think of is to recrown it. The crown looks good, but something has to be causing it. I know how to shoot. I am sure it is not bad technique. I can shoot sub MOA groups with several of my rifles.

I have tried sizing at 358, 359, 360. I have aircooled, waterdropped, gas checked and plain based. I can get lots of 1-1 3/4" groups at 50, but they all blow up at 100. I even tried some jacketed, same results.

What am I missing?

[tuckerdog]

I dont know about the rest of the crowd but I have to play with different combos powder, lube, primers,bullet weights & styles till I get the combo that works for me,but then I'm a tinkerer at heart and it is what I do.Marlin makes good firearms and you just have to find what works best for you

[Johnch]

Have you tryed to up the powder charge ?

As my Marlin ( from memory , load notes are not handy ) shot 158 gr GC cast , either 15.5 or 15 gr of H4227 best

I believe somewhere around 16 gr is max

Also try changing lubes

John

[GP100man]

have ya chronoed em? , If there super sonic at fifty then drop out to sub sonic theres a pressure wave that disrupts true flight especially with short pistol type boolits from a rifle.

I sold a 44 lever gun for the same thing!! Wish I had it back !

[crabo]

I dont know about the rest of the crowd but I have to play with different combos powder, lube, primers,bullet weights & styles till I get the combo that works for me,but then I'm a tinkerer at heart and it is what I do.Marlin makes good firearms and you just have to find what works best for you

This is why I am crazy, I have done this alot.

[HangFireW8]

I have a Marlin 357 CB. I can shoot great groups at 50 yards with several different powders and boolit combinations. I cannot shoot a good group at 100 to save my life. Every group blows up between 50 and 100 yards.


If your groups are good at 50 and blow up at 100, the rifle and the shooting are good. The issue is either gale-force winds or bullet stability.

Using too much lube will help destabilize a boolit. Fill only the rear groove or enough to prevent leading. If you are using a very soft lube, trying moving to a hard lube. It is the random and uneven departure of lube that throws off stability, helped along by the spinning of the boolit.

Not enough velocity and rifling twist will lower stability. Try upping the velocity in small increments, and/or going to a shorter length boolit. (The other alternative, upping the rifling rate, is not much of an option). I say small increments, because at some point all cast boolit groups blow up due to too-high velocity.

The final idea is to try to change the pressure curve of the load. If you are using primarily very fast powders, try something relatively show, or vice-versa. I'm not sure what you are using but there are several theories as to why this might help (or hurt).

Hopefully this will give you some ideas to try before giving up!

-HF

[sagacious]

I have tried sizing at 358, 359, 360. I have aircooled, waterdropped, gas checked and plain based. I can get lots of 1-1 3/4" groups at 50, but they all blow up at 100. I even tried some jacketed, same results.

What am I missing?
Every bullet of every possible description, of every hardness, at every practical size, and presumably using every appropriate powder you have, at varying powder levels... simply does not shoot at 100yds? I don't mean to add to the craziness factor, but something seems wrong here.

Please do not take this as anything but an intention to assist, but your recipe of 4227 is almost exactly in the middle of the range for Lyman data for your components, which is often where folks begin. Not saying that's the case here, but middle-of-the-road recipes are not usually the point folks return to right before they give up. Crown damage should be visible with a good magnifying glass and strong light. If you cannot find any damage, it might be better to keep looking for a solution.

I'd be interested in seeing the results of a H110 or WW296 recipe with an air-cooled ww-alloy gc wax-lubed bullet. If a carefully assembled WW296 handload doesn't get it at 100yds, then I would say the craziness was hard-earned indeed!

Keep us posted, and best of luck. :drinks:

[Matt_G]

You say it's doing this with jacketed as well?
Maybe it does need a recrown...

Have you checked the twist in the barrel and made SURE it is what they say it is?

[1Shirt]

Have a 94 Win in 357, that with 158 Kieth (cast hard), Lar's lube, over 12 gr.of 2400 shoots well at 100. Aroung 3" or so, probably better if it had a shooter with younger eyes.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[Blammer]

I'd check the velocity of your boolits first. I suspect that the drop in velocity is causing you grief at 100 yds.

Up the powder charge or change powders. I'd recommend Lil'gun for powder.

[crabo]

Have a 94 Win in 357, that with 158 Kieth (cast hard), Lar's lube, over 12 gr.of 2400 shoots well at 100. Aroung 3" or so, probably better if it had a shooter with younger eyes.
1Shirt!:coffee:

I tried 12, 12.5, and 13 of 2400, same results

[Fly]

You know it's stuff like this that makes me wonder if casting boolit's is really worth it.Don't
take this the wrong way.I just got into this a few weeks ago & I really do enjoy playing
with it.

But I'm now playing with paper jackets because I don't like slowing the boolits down that
much & taking away that much knock down energy.It seems the paper jacket may be
less subject to problems the guy above is having.

I don't know for I'm just trying that out.But it sure seems the lubed boolit's are a lot
of trouble just to save a few bucks.

[canyon-ghost]

How about bullet weight? I've seen light bullets do that, just lack the sectional density to carry 100 yards well.

[Turk]

Try resting on the front of your forend or 12' from the muzzle on the mag tube.

[MtGun44]

I have excellent accy with 16.3 gr H110/W296 under several different boolits shootes
extremely well in several different pistols and the velocity is well up into the magnum
range. Give that a try. I think you need to move faster (stay supersonic) or spin
the boolit faster (more velocity) to keep it stable at 100 yds.

Bill

[waksupi]

You know it's stuff like this that makes me wonder if casting boolit's is really worth it.Don't
take this the wrong way.I just got into this a few weeks ago & I really do enjoy playing
with it.

But I'm now playing with paper jackets because I don't like slowing the boolits down that
much & taking away that much knock down energy.It seems the paper jacket may be
less subject to problems the guy above is having.

I don't know for I'm just trying that out.But it sure seems the lubed boolit's are a lot
of trouble just to save a few bucks.

Problem is, if you push a cast boolit too fast, you will not like the destruction of the game being hunted.

[SCIBUL]

I already had this kind of problem with several hunting rifles before... :violin:
And I learned from an old shooter (older than me) that some kind of rifles needed to be kept in hands to shoot OK. Hunting rifles are (generaly) light rifles. If you shoot them from a bench they will not recoil perfectly in line and your results won't be regulars from shoot to shoot !
You want to shoot it from a bench ? OK, but just keet your hand under the forend and hold it firmly. Keep it rested on your shoulder and... God that rifle really shoots well :bigsmyl2:
If it don't works, throw away your rifle but just tell me where you did it :mrgreen:
Hope this helps...
[smilie=s:

[mag44uk]

FWIW.
I organised,for our club here in the UK,what will be our annual gallery rifle long range championship. Course of fire: Bullseye target at 200 yards:2 convertable sighters,10 shots to count fired twice. Rifles used,any conventional pistol calibre underlever with any sights.
There was also a sporting semi 22 class. Bag allowed under the fore end.Size of the black is 15 inches.
We mostly shoot Marlins with the 44 being most popular. I am the boolit caster amongst us. The other guys use commercially cast boolits (made in the UK)
I have a 41 and a 44 Marlin and mainly use saeco moulds.
I used my 41 and really struggled to even hit the black. Same with my 44
The guy who won the Underlever event although owning a 44 marlin used his 357 winchester trapper. W296 under a Hornady silhouette bullet @1650 fps.
We shoot alot of Marlins over here in competition. Some of the top shooters are cleaning the 1500. We have alot of experience in manufacturing "soft" target loads.
I have come to the conclusion that these underlevers just cant shoot long range.
I have fired many different loads and boolits thru my two Marlins at 100yds and the very best I can get is about 6 inch groups with 5 shots.
At the 200 yard comp most people were shooting about a 2 foot group. I think this is the best you will ever get.
Incidentally,the 22`s did much better even using standard ammo at 1000fps. Most folk got all rounds in the black even allowing for 6 feet of holdover!
I am going to try using one marlin with the fore end and mag tube taken off.
HTH
Tony

[Bret4207]

You know it's stuff like this that makes me wonder if casting boolit's is really worth it.Don't
take this the wrong way.I just got into this a few weeks ago & I really do enjoy playing
with it.

But I'm now playing with paper jackets because I don't like slowing the boolits down that
much & taking away that much knock down energy.It seems the paper jacket may be
less subject to problems the guy above is having.

I don't know for I'm just trying that out.But it sure seems the lubed boolit's are a lot
of trouble just to save a few bucks.

Castings not for everyone. And it's more than saving a few bucks, some people just don't like cast.

[Bass Ackward]

Seems that you are questioning the gun .... or the bullets. I probably would too as it shouldn't be THAT bad with a 35, even with a wadcutter.

See if you can get access to another 357. Can be a handgun, preferably scoped. Load those same everything in it with 14 gr of 4227 and shoot it at both ranges. The group size isn't important, only that accuracy is linear. (twice the size of 50)

If it is, then it isn't the bullets. An a handgun should have a lower muzzle velocity to rule that out too if that isn't a problem. If it is, then at least you are pointed in the right direction.

The next thing I would do is to slug dirty. I would get someone to send you a few Pure lead slugs that are olgivals like Hornady's for this purpose so they should allow the throat to align them and start off just like you fired them.

Remove the bolt from the action and feel what the slug feels. Size as close to bore as possible and coat it with some of the lube you are using so you aren't beating uncontrollably to get it started. With moderate pressure, it should .... glide smooth as silk from the throat to the muzzle and you should feel the resistance lighten up as the bullet (bearing length) is clearing the muzzle.

Observe the slug. I mean under magnification for any irregularities. See if the slug is establishing bore center. If it isn't, then the base will always be out of square (same effect as a bad crown) and why only a little velocity loss shows up wildly. Look for deeper rifling or shaved lead, anything out of the ordinary. Try to use a set of verniers and measure your rifling height as well. Measure ALL parts of the slug. (front and back for every land combination)

Now as to crown. Many people believe that you can see your crown. Sometimes you do, sometimes you don't. If your bore is enlarged some at the muzzle for any reason, then the last place that it was bore diameter is the "real" crown. That could be two or three inches or more back from the muzzle. You need to remove the bolt and do this from the rear so that everything is copacetic.

Take what ever you are going to push with and run it into the bore stopping at the muzzle MINUS the bullets bearing length you are going to use. Mark the rod at that point on the rod at the back of the action so that you know when you are approaching that point. Then mark it a second time when you ARE at the muzzle with the rod tip.

If the bullet jumps free before you get to that second mark on the rod, then you have an enlarged bore or lowered rifling height from the point it pushed free and that is where your "real" crown (broke seal) currently is. To be able to cut a "true" crown, that is how far the barrel will need to be cut off to allow that to happen.

WARNING: It is best to support the gun so that you can have two hands free. This may take one individual to assist if you don't have a shooting vise or such. Then have a second set of eyes that that person doesn't move once the marks are in place so his optical point of reference remains the same using the marks on the rod. He must not move from the time the rod is marked. Your job is to apply constant pressure which may take your undivided attention. Two inches is going to look like a mile but anything less than 1/2" is hard to see from the pushers perspective. The pusher is living through the slug. As an old TV series once said, "become one with the slug, Grasshopper."

A lot of work, and the answer may not be to your liking. But at least you will have a better idea.

[44man]

In my opinion you need to go to a 30-30 in a Marlin before the twist is correct.
My .44 does the same thing, shot 5 in 3/8" at 50 once but missed the paper a lot at 100. No weight boolit at any velocity will shoot so I gave up on it.
Does no good to really speed them up because the rifling is so shallow at .003" the boolit will skid anyway no matter how hard. So much for "Ballard rifling!"

[steg]

I had that same problem with a Marlin 1895, with factory tips it was an honest tack driver out to 100 yards, but with cast it was all over the place at any distance, tried anything I could think of, even bought some cast boolits, in case it was my cast that were causing the problem, finally sold the gun to a guy that didn't reload, don't know if I ever would have figured it out, I personally blamed it on the micro groove rifeling, but it never had a leading problem....steg

[fecmech]

Crabo--As I mentioned in a previous post in the Leverguns section my results mirror yours and that's with a Rossi and Win 94 in .357. As for now I'm living with 70-80% of my 100yd shots in 3 MOA. Sometime this summer I plan on pulling the mag tube and forearm off both guns and see what happens. I did an impact casting of my chambers on both guns a while back and it's a wonder either one shoots. The winnie (which shoots the best) has .4" from the end of the case to the rifling with about .150" of that at .380"! The Rossi is "only" .3" to the rifling which is better but then you have the 1 in 30" twist to contend with. If you ever figure it out please post. Nick

[Blammer]

I see you are trying the NOE HP GC.

Try some of them with the HP not so deep, make the wt at 170gr or just make it a flat point and see what happens.

[RICKLANDES]

I would take some JB and scrub the heck out of that bore. Start with the simple things first. A small amount of fouling can really raise trouble with a grouping.
Bullets leave the muzzle and travel in a spiral, much like a football, BUT they also travel in a corkscrew fashion as they are spiraling forward. The whole thing becomes more cone shaped as distance increases. This way you may appear to group at fifty, but then the corkscrew is opening up as the path becomes more pronounced with range.
Wind, Bar. pressure all impact bullet flights in predicatable ways (to some extent) or doping the wind would be a myth.
I am betting you have an exeptionally rough or dirty barrel that really needs a good scrubbing.

A few years back I was shooting with a SWAT trainer. His rifle was grouping into 5-6 inch groups at 100 yards. We did the JB route and dropped the groups to about 1".

As to the muzzle I would not touch it unless I had exhausted every thing else. Muzzles only need redoing if you have injured them in some way with a hard ramrod or the like. I am firmly believing you would never do that based on what experience you have shared.

Hang in there and let us know what happened...this is the good stuff about these forums...how is the odd stuff figured out. :)

Another note check all bolts screws, scope mounts for snugness, do not overtighten any of them.

[crabo]

I see you are trying the NOE HP GC.

Try some of them with the HP not so deep, make the wt at 170gr or just make it a flat point and see what happens.

I didn't have time to cast any of the NOE as a flat point, but I had some water dropped 180 grain GC that I had sized to 360 and over time grew to 361. This mold is a Mountain Mold that I had made. I put 14.5 of 4227 since that was what I was getting my best load with the NOE hollowpoint and my Square Deal was set ... The match is Saturday and I didn't want to do more load testing.

I shot an 1 7/8 5 shot group. I then shot a bunch of other loads and came back and shot a 2" group. It looks like my Marlin likes the heavier boolit. Not only was it waterdropped, but it was .361, and I had lubed it with C Red and also put a coat of LLA on it in a previous lifetime.

I was wanting the lighter boolits to work, and especially the plain based one. I also wanted to use what I would call a midrange load since this was for Pistol Cartridge Silhouette. It didn't happen. What you want to work and what works is often two different things.

Now I have several things to investigate.

1. Did the LLA help the boolit group better? I did this earlier because I have not shot the gun very much. I am going to coat some of my pb boolits and see what they will do.

2. What part does the WD play? Am I hurting myself because I don't have a hardness tester and can only guess what is going on by casting and shooting, and then sometimes waiting and letting the boolits age.

3. Sizing is what I would consider large since I slugged my barrel and it came out 357-3575.

I will also continue to try to get my pb boolit to group at 100.

At least now I don't have an excuse for not shooting well. Okay, I can use the one about not being able to practice with the rifle very much. But we know excuses only satisfies the person giving it.

[cbrick]

Crabo, here is a load I worked up for a Marlin 94 CS 357 Mag for NRA Hunters Pistol targets.

The first photo is 20 shots from the bench, iron sights. Second photo is 5 shots from the bench on a different day and a photo of #382.

The boolit is SAECO # 382, 150 gr SWC PB cast of WW + 3% tin @ 149 gr, air cooled @ 11 BHN. Several primers were tested, these groups were fired with CCI 500 small pistol standard @ 971 fps. WSP primers gave 1012 fps and somewhat larger groups. Both were with Trail Boss @ 5.0 gr.

Rick

[Bass Ackward]

I suspect that had you made the tests / measurements that I pointed out that you would find your throat to be a little less than ideal as Fecmech pointed out above.

A longer fatter bullet can reach across the expanse, make steel contact sooner, and then have enough strength on the other side to establish and hold bore center under pressure while the base is hanging in mid air crossing this distance.

"IF" this happens to be true, (you won't know unless you do slug / measure) then the shorter or lighter the bullet that you want to shoot, the larger in diameter it may need to be so that it contacts steel sooner as it moves forward. Coarse this is all correctable with a re-chamber job using a properly dimensioned reamer.

From my experience, the LLA prevents galling during monstrous sizing processes and makes it easier for the rifling to turn the slug over without stripping. After enough shots, as defined by the gun, you won't need it anymore and your standard lube will be sufficient. You will know when this is because your groups will actually begin to open when using the LLA.

The rifle WILL wear in a bore taper to digest the larger specimens. My guess is about 1200-1500 rounds depending upon pressure, hardness, and antimony content. The flip side is that that will probably decrease jacketed performance and possibly ruin it altogether. My Marlin 44 required .435 to do well with a 280 grainer and that throat was UGLY. Should have used bigger but I wasn't going to set up to do that for one gun.

[excess650]

In my opinion you need to go to a 30-30 in a Marlin before the twist is correct.
My .44 does the same thing, shot 5 in 3/8" at 50 once but missed the paper a lot at 100. No weight boolit at any velocity will shoot so I gave up on it.
Does no good to really speed them up because the rifling is so shallow at .003" the boolit will skid anyway no matter how hard. So much for "Ballard rifling!"

I think the 1-38" twist in the 44mag is the oddball. I've owned a couple of 44mag 1894s, and found them to be really touchy about loads. The twist in the .357, 45-70, and 35 Rem all work fine. As for the "Ballard rifling" being too shallow, its not. My OLD 1894c has shallow MG, and shoots full power 185gr Saeco #354 better than I can hold at 100 yards and beyond. At 1700fps+ I've shot these until the barrel was uncomfortably warm, and never had any problem with leading or deteriorating accuracy. I've shot 200m chicken silhouettes with boring regularity from a sitting postion, and 300m pigs consistently from cross sticks with lots of witnesses.






I had that same problem with a Marlin 1895, with factory tips it was an honest tack driver out to 100 yards, but with cast it was all over the place at any distance, tried anything I could think of, even bought some cast boolits, in case it was my cast that were causing the problem, finally sold the gun to a guy that didn't reload, don't know if I ever would have figured it out, I personally blamed it on the micro groove rifeling, but it never had a leading problem....steg

My older straight grip 1895 has MG, and shoots just fine at 100 yards with some 380gr GC that I bought at a gun show. I've also shot 400+gr plain base bullets accurately, but at lower velocities than I expected from the GC loads. The shorter 340gr HP and even shorter 300gr bullets are more difficult to get accuracy with.

[excess650]

Crabo,
Check out this thread

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=83154

He's shooting Lee 105 SWC from his 1894CB. Granted, the group pictured is only 50 yards, but its a plain base bullet, and a very short one at that.

My own 1894Cs seem to prefer heavy bullets, and most of mine are shot with GC, but I've just started working with a Lee 358-158RF and it shows promise even from the MG barrel.

[troy_mclure]

+1 on checking/slugging the throat

[geargnasher]

Crabo, some pretty good pointers above, especially Bass Ackward's advice, but no one has so far really put this in perspective: You are asking rifle performance from a carbine using a pistol cartridge which has no doubt been loaded using pistol techniques. Notice anything about the .361" boolit shooting better? I do. To get any reasonable accuracy at a distance you have to feed that boolit PERFECTLY STRAIGHT into the throat and bore, and a repeating rifle is likely to have a sloppy, oversized chamber which allows your cartridge to sit lopsided in the chamber. Even if you're seating to engrave, the boolit is likely to get a crooked start if the "neck" area of the loaded cartridge isn't fitting very close to the chamber. Also, remember that if you are full-length sizing, the case head end of the cartridge can settle off-center in the chamber, causing the boolit to start crooked in the bore and get the kind of deformity that shows up past 50 yards. Those were also water-dropped, which handle launch deformation better than soft boolits do. Nose slump could also be a factor with softer boolits causing downrange imbalance.

The other thing to check, as has been mentioned, is velocity downrange. Boolits tend to buffet when dropping behind the supersonic pressure wave, and you may need to keep that velocity supersonic all the way to 100 yards to prevent this. Heavier boolits tend to do better, but it may be a challenge to keep the velocity up with a blunt boolit in .357. I would take your best shooting load and work it out past 50 yards in ten-yard increments and see if your group expansion is linear or geometric, I'll bet it stays together fairly well out to, say, 70 or 80 yards and then blows up, likely due to instability from the supersonic/subsonic transition or from boolit imbalance from a crooked launch.

What I would do first: Do an impact slug of the chamber and throat, make sure you anneal the case thoroughly so it will swell to the chamber with minimum springback. Check against your loaded rounds with a GOOD micrometer, if your loaded ammo leaves you with more than a .001" clearance where the boolit sits in the case mouth then you can expect inaccuracy. About the only thing you can do to correct this is use fatter boolits and SIZE ONLY THE AREA OF THE CASE THE BOOLIT WILL OCCUPY WHEN LOADED. This means a longer decapping pin or decap in a univeral die or base punch (you can use just the shell holder and the removed decapping pin from your existing die). Once you fireform the brass, don't resize the case beyond the neck portion. Treat this whole operation like a benchrest rifle or at least load like you're trying to win matches with your sporter, sloppy tolerances won't cut it at any distance in .357 Mag or any other cartridge. You may have to seat the boolit to engrave slightly, and depending on the throat this may preclude magazine use. You may also have to use a bigger expander plug to keep from swaging the oversized boolits I anticipate you having to use. I'm not sure if .357 Max brass would gain you any thickness in the mouth area if you found some and cut it down to fit, but thicker brass may be necessary to get you the tight fit and straight boolit start you need for long range accuracy.

After you get the basics of fit and launch sorted out, then you can work on perfecting the pressure curve with powder burn rate, charge weight, and boolit weight, and boolit weight. Lube may become a factor, but if everything is right Carnauby Red should be more than good enough, it melts and slings off pretty well in a carbine so it would be the last thing I would change. I also think heavier boolits with a RFN design and no shoulder step combined with a heavy charge of slow powder is what will get you there, but that's more of an educated guess on my part than anything.

The bottom line is the kind of groups you're getting at 100 yards is to be expected from a sloppy-loose, straight-walled, short pistol cartridge fired from the chamber of a levergun, and unless you correct the fit, it will shoot like a revolver and for many of the same reasons.

Good luck,

Gear

[felix]

Gear, very good! ... felix

[StarMetal]

Wasn't going to get in this, but I'd like to say this. When I lived in Claremore, Ok I had a Rossi Puma in 357 Mag. This was in the early 80's to give you an idea of the age of the rifle. I was using the RCBS 150 grain bullet for it and I was loading it over a very stiff charge of 4227. Right on the ragged edge of maximum. In fact my good friend at work had the exact same rifle and he tried my load and every one would blow the primer. The velocity was way way up there. I'm not going to give groups, partly to I don't remember them exactly, and I don't want to get all the bull pucky about them, so let's say it shot very very good. This was at distance too. I shot it mostly at 100 yards and I shot it beyond that. I shot a small bird out of the top of a tree at over 80 yards with it once when my son was with me. He was just 10 and still remembers and recalls that shot. Took some turkey with that rifle also. I loaded the ammo normal, just like I load it for my Model 19 revolver (not the same load thought!!!!) and it shoots good. The recoil on the rifle caused the magazine tube to go forward and took me some work to fix it so it wouldn't do it anymore. Like a dummy I sold that rifle. One more thing. I D&T'ed it for receiver sights....hardest dang steel I've ever drilled!!!!!!! I have high regards for Brazilian steel.

[NHlever]

Carefully slug your bore. I think you will find that there are both tight, and loose areas. My theory is that the loose areas allow the boolit / bullet to lose just a bit of grip on the rifling, and it allows some gas cutting, and some instability to be introduced. Many Marlin barrels show this, and I had one 30-30 so bad that it would group a little over an inch at 100 yards with Hornady 170's and a load it liked while it keyholed 100-110 grain bullets, and sprayed them at 25 yards. Marlin replaced that barrel, and it shot pretty good with everything after that. Some will shoot well at closer ranges, but the large areas in the bore have the same effect as reducing the twist rate at longer ranges. I think this is why Marlin rifles generally shoot the best with the longest for caliber bullets / boolits that you can load. The longer bearing surface helps the bullet maintain the spin that it started out with, etc.

[fecmech]

Well I said a while back that I didn't think you could do 3 consecutive 10 shot groups in a row with .357 leverguns at a 100 yds at 3 moa and I just did 4! Sometimes it sure is nice to be wrong. I shot 3 groups 3.25",3" and 2.5" with my peep sighted 94 Winnie and a 2 1/2" with a friends scoped 94C Marlin.
I like Crabo was looking for an accurate pistol caliber silhouette load for my levergun and I like everything about this one. It's the Lee TL 158 SWC (6 cav) covered with Lee owl snot over 5.2 grs of Unique. That boolit seems to really shoot. I even tried 6 shots out of my K-38 at 50 yds and they went into 1 9/16". I don't think DavidR is going to get his mold back!
The load only runs about 1100 fps but that is more than adequate to topple the 100 yd ram. Evidently the TL design works well in crappy throats because I sure have one in that Winchester. I have not had a chance to shoot this in my Rossi but the low velocity and 30" twist may work against it. I'll find that out later this week. For now at least I'm hard pressed to blame the gun for any of my lost targets.

[Bass Ackward]

Atta boy!

It's good to hear positive results.

[44man]

Excess, You miss the point! The micro groove rifling is .003" deep but there are more lands and grooves to aid boolit grip.
The Ballard is still .003" deep with less lands and grooves. It is not true Ballard, it is too shallow for any use except jacketed.
You are better off with the micro groove.

[andrew375]

My experience, I have Winchester 94 in .44 mag, is that best results are with top loads. I believe one of the problems is the slow rifling twist, the M94 is about 1 in 34", whereas my old M29 it was 1 in 18". Here in the uk when law abiding subjects of the crown were criminalised for owning pistols many went to pistol calibre rifles, including myself and I have witnessed what you are reporting time and again. The problem is always the same trying to shoot pipsqueek loads in rifles setup to use full power loads. The solution is always the same too, load the ammo to top levels.

My M94 will shoot into 2moa at 100 yards all the time with the RCBS 250gr. Keith SWC driven at 1600 fps. But the real star is the LBT 320 gr. which, driven at 1400fps by a full load of N110, is good out to 600 yards! Both these are cast from ww or backstop lead and hardened by water quenching from the mould, roughly 20 bhn.

Another issue is that, after examining several, Marlin seem to routinely cut their barrels over size. My .45-70 marlin was .4595" and one .44 Marlin was .4315"! My M94 is right at .429"

[Bass Ackward]

My M94 will shoot into 2moa at 100 yards all the time with the RCBS 250gr. Keith SWC driven at 1600 fps.

But the real star is the LBT 320 gr. which, driven at 1400fps by a full load of N110, is good out to 600 yards!



Two contradictions in a row.

Pretty soon I am going to start thinking that there are no rules. :grin:

[felix]

EARLY USA issue M29s have a 20 twist; LATE USA issue Winnie M94s have a 24 twist (44 and 45 pistol rounds). ... felix

[felix]

Yeah, John, no rules because nothing is consistent as you know. It has more to do with what Gear said in his post than anything. ... felix

[crabo]

Well, I think that my chamber is the problem as Bass and Gear have suggested. My cases all come out dirty. I think I know why this gun was for sale and looked brand new.

The only load I can get to shoot consistently at 2" and under, is a 180 GC Mountain Mold boolit with 14.5 of 4227. The boolit measures .361 and is water dropped. The bore measures 3575. My 100 yard group is only a little bit larger than the 50 yard group. All the other loads are 2-4 times larger at 100 than at 50 yards.

I used a 160 grn air cooled boolit as cast, and it measured 361.5. It would not shoot. It chambered easily. All of the many air cooled boolits I have tried did not give good results.

I tried XTPs with 13 of 2400. It wouldn't shoot. I tried Rainer jacketed with 5.0 and 5.4 of 231 and Trail Boss. The Trail boss shot about 3 feet lower with the Rainer 158 jacketed than with a 160 cast boolit. The cases were extra smokey and dirty all the way back to the rim. I think the jacketed gave a little more resistance in the barrel and the powder blew back into the chamber.

I can not get this gun will not shoot jacketed or cast bullets with a lot of different powders and charges at 100 yards.

I am going to do a chamber cast and see what I have. I thought about trying to get the barrel set back and rechambered. There are some hangers for the forend end and I would have to rework the wood to make the forend fit. Has anyone ever heard of anyone doing this to a Marlin levergun?

Would Marlin do anything about a bad chamber? This is a 24" Cowboy and they don't make the 24" barrel anymore.

Thanks for listening to me whine.

[HangFireW8]

Would Marlin do anything about a bad chamber? This is a 24" Cowboy and they don't make the 24" barrel anymore.

Marlin will rebarrel for a reasonable price. I know, I had them do one of mine.

If you are not the first owner, getting them to do it for free is unlikely.

-HF

[crabo]

Well, I finally did what Bass told me I should do at the front end of this saga. I did a chamber cast. The chamber measures .3825 at the widest point.

A sized case from my Dillon measures on the outside .373. If I load a .362 boolit, it meaures .381 outside diameter which is perfect. However it is still very narrow below the boolit and above the rim. This accounts for all the blowback on my cases.

I called Marlin and they said to send it back and they would look at it. They said 30-45 days before they would be able to get to it. I asked about the reloacation and they told me that it won't affect anything for 15-18 months.

[cbrick]

Crabo, Here's something you probably don't want to hear.

The old saying that if you don't really want to know don't ask applies doubly to bore scopes. If you don't really, really want to know don't look.

I bought a used Marlin 45 Colt Cowboy 94 in new, nearly unfired condition. Looking down the down the bore with the naked eye everything looked great, sharp rifling and nice & clean. I tried a few different fairly mild loads in it and I couldn't hardly hit the 50 meter target.

Back at home out came the bore scope, the scene was more horrifying than the Martian that ate New York. While the rifling looked good with the naked eye a close up look with the scope was a different story. A better bore could have been achieved with a hammer and chisel, I had never seen such a disaster. This was not abuse or wear and tear, it was made this way. Gouges, the lands starting and stopping, extremely rough, it was terrible.

I called marlin and described what I had found. I also told them that I bought it used and that if needed I would be happy to pay for a new barrel but regardless it has to have a new barrel. I also told them that I would be happy to pay extra if they would do whatever needed to make sure it's a quality barrel with a good bore and trued up with the action. They said to send it in. I wrote all that up and sent the letter along with the rifle.

About 6-7 weeks later I get a letter from Marlin that says the work was completed and that they will ship it as soon as they receive $180.00. I sent in the money and in a couple of weeks got the rifle back, it came with a target to show how well it shoots. This time before heading to the range I get the bore scope and have a look. Shocking, while it was a somewhat better bore than the one I sent in it wasn't better enough to matter or be worth over $200.00 (including shipping). Extremely rough from one end to the other, extremely inconsistent lands and grooves and if this bore had fired the rounds in the group they sent I couldn't tell. Perfectly clean, spotless, no hint that it had even one round through it, a trace of oil and nothing else.

I tried shooting it and it leads pretty badly and doesn't shoot for beans.

A couple of months later I'm in a gun store and in the rack is a brand new Marlin stainless 336 in 45-70. I gotta have it and tell the guy to start the paper work. While he is doing that I tell him that I have my bore scope out in the trunk, is it ok for me to have a look down the bore? Holey moley, stop the paper work, this bore is every bit as bad as the one I sent back to Marlin. That's three terrible bores in row from Marlin, what's going on?

At our next monthly match Tony Tello (a multiple times NRA National Champion in rifle silhouette and the driving force behind the NRA starting Cowboy Lever Action Rifle Silhouette) shows up with a new Marlin 94 in 30-30, I ask him if it's ok for me to look down the bore with the scope and he says sure. Amazing, just as bad as the first three bores. Four consecutive new Marlin bores that looked like they were done with a chisel.

I don't know if Marlin is using cheap imported barrels or what but four really terrible bores in a row was enough for me, I haven't looked at a Marlin since. My 45 Colt still sits in the safe, down the road I'll find a smith to re-barrel it with an after market barrel.

At the time all this was happening I posted some of it here in the leverguns section and got very little response so I dropped it.

Hope this info gives you something to think about. Perhaps if you have to pay Marlin your money would be better spent with a gunsmith instead.

Rick

[fecmech]

Cbrick--Thanks for the post. I had been looking for a new Marlin 94 in search of an accurate.357 and fortunately had not found one. Luckily I have a very good friend who lent me his year old Marlin .357 to play with and I have been underwhelmed by it also. My Rossi 92 shoots as well (so far) and my Win 94 with the large throat shoots better. I'm not trying to bash Marlin but thanks to my limited experience and the above post I just ordered a new Rossi 92 with the 24" octagon barrel. I may get lucky and it might shoot but we'll see about that. The plan is to rebarrel it and have a button mag on it and just maybe end up with an accurate .357 lever gun. It will run in the $800-$900 range total and if it shoots good it will be well worth it. If not it won't be the end of the world. I've wasted that amount of money on sillier stuff than that in the past. Thanks for the input, I appreciate it. Nick

[geargnasher]

Crabo, I beseech you, try just NECK SIZING your brass and shoot the .361" boolits, if the chamber is at least concentric with the bore and not bulged to one side this will cure your alignment issue and likely improve accuracy. It will also help seal the case in the chamber because it doesn't have to blow up as much. I'll bet they will feed fine, too, because the mouth and neck area are going to be tapered. Just size to where the base of the seated boolit will be, and use a longer decapping rod or decap in a universal die, or just take your decapping pin out of your exisiting die set and use it, the shellholder, and a plastic mallet to decap your fired brass.

If anyone else observes your loaded ammo and asks what wildcat you're using, just tell them it's a .357 Marl-Bo!
Gear

[crabo]

If anyone else observes your loaded ammo and asks what wildcat you're using, just tell them it's a .357 Marl-Bo!
Gear

I like that. One of the things I thought about was having the barrel relined and a new chamber cut. I have no experience with this and don't know if it is possible.

If I understand the rules for pistol cartridge silhouette, you cannot rebarrel with an aftermarket barrel. I haven't looked it up, but that was what I was told.

I talked to Davis Clay and he told me it would be $300+ to set the barrel back, cut a new chamber and crown, with a dovetail for the forend.

If I knew I could get what I want, I would do the liner and new chamber in a heartbeat.

Gear, I'll try neck sizing, but I do like cranking the ammo out with my Dillons, same reason I bought a star.

SO, does anyone think the liner would work and have any recommendations for someone to do it?

[cbrick]

fecmech, not my intention to bash Marlin, just relating my experience and what could possibly be what Crabo is running into. The only way he will ever know for sure is to look at the bore through a bore scope, it can be a real eye opening experience.

Rick

[crabo]

fecmech, not my intention to bash Marlin, just relating my experience and what could possibly be what Crabo is running into. The only way he will ever know for sure is to look at the bore through a bore scope, it can be a real eye opening experience.

Rick

Rob Massey looked at my bore with a borescope some time ago and said it looked good. I looked at it also, but really didn't have the experience to know what I was looking at.

I think I will try the neck sizing, just for fun, and see if I can get a midrange load to shoot at 100.

I talked to Redmond and he said they would not do a liner on a 357 because of the pressures and he would not recommend it, even if someone was willing to do it.