Why NOT quench?

[Lavid2002]

I have heard .45ACP bullets need not be quenched for light target loads...but why NOT quench them? If it will help prevent the possibility of leading why not do it? I really dont mind dropping the boolits into a bucket, it actually seems easier to drop them into a bucket rather than worry about accidentally dropping one onto another boolit on a dry cloth and deforming it.

Thanks
-Dave

[AZ-Stew]

Drop onto cloth, roll boolits back with sprue knocker stick, giving you a chance to look for obvious faults, close mould, cast, wait for sprue to cool, open mould and drop boolits onto empty space on cloth. Repeat. Can't be easier. DON"T drop them on top of each other. Push them into a pile at the back of your cloth (towel) padding after each cast, leaving a big empty space for the next boolits to drop from the mould.

Dropping into a bucket means you have to have the bucket near the casting pot. Bad choice, unless you like visits from the tinsel fairy. Yes, boolits splash when dropped into the bucket. If the splash water makes it to your casting pot, POOF! Tinsel Fairy! BTW, just because they fall into a bucket of water doesn't mean they won't bang into each other at the bottom of the bucket.

If you MUST have tempered boolits, go find yourself a yard sale toaster oven. See: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=42870 Be sure to read all the posts under that thread so you get the full story.

Safer and more uniform, since all boolits will be the same temp when they hit the water. With water dropping, your hardness will change depending on how quickly multiple boolits fall to the water from a gang mould after the cast. You want them to be uniform.

Another question is why you think you need hard boolits. I just shot a bunch of the Lee RN TL 230 gr boolits from both my Ruger Blackhawk and a Winchester M-94 carbine using 8.5 gr Unique with good accuracy and no leading. They were cast of straight air cooled WW. No tin, no nothing added. I'm sure they launched faster from the Winchester than they will from your auto-pistol. You don't NEED harder boolits, so why go to the trouble to make them?

Regards,

Stew

[DLCTEX]

If you get the mould up to temp and get a steady casting rhythm going you can have consistent hardness. Who cares if the hardness number varies a number or two for your use? Set up to avoid splash to the pot and drop away. Try a hundred and see if you like the results. You can always melt them if you don't like the results. Don't drop any rejects back into the pot, though!:-P

[Lloyd Smale]

try them both ways and see what your gun prefers.

[Bret4207]

Why not? Why not just keep things simple.

[armyrat1970]

In most cases excessive leading is caused by sloppy boolit fit to bore. You can drop boolits with straight linotype, which has a BHN of around 22. If you have sloppy boolit fit to bore, a smaller boolit than what you need, you will get leading. Many think boolit hardness will cut down on leading, but that is often not the case. Boolit fit to bore is the most important factor with a cast boolit. You should always try to go at least .001 to .002 over groove size.
Many cast with air cooled WWS with no leading problems. If your boolit is not filling the grooves, you will probably get leading to some extent with any casting alloy. Depending on how hard you push 'em, the leading may increase.

[epj]

I water drop as a matter of convenience. The water bucket is sufficiently far from the pot that splashing is not a concern. There is some advantage in harder bullets for autoloaders in that there is less chance of bullet nose deformation as the round is chambered. This may be more of an issue in some guns/bullet designs than others.

[Lavid2002]

Ok guys, Ill try air dropping and see what I get...Ill also pop a few in the water and see how they turn out.

Thanks : )

-Dave

[Shiloh]

I water drop everything. As stated, get a steady rhythm going and stick to it. I cull them later.

Shiloh

[Lead Fred]

I also quench everything. I have a metal bowl I fill 1/2 way with ice, the pour water in until the ice is covered.

I have a 4x4 across the top of the bowl which I use to tap the mold handle on.
The boolits drop the 6 inches. The bowl is two feet (arms length) from the pot.
Ive never splashed water that far yet.

[Blammer]

I really don't think quenching or not will matter for the 45acp.

One question I have is why not drop them on top each other? I do it all the time, that's why I call it making a "pile" of boolits, I'm dropping them out of the mould a whopping 4 inches onto the rest of them. Haven't had to reject any for "dents" yet, and likely never will.

[HeavyMetal]

I water drop for two reason: It allows me to handle the boolits sooner and the drop through the water acts as a cushion.

Blammer mentions he's never culled because of dents. With bevel base boolits dents are very unlikely to cause a problum.

Move to a flat based boolit like the 429421 or 358429 and denting on the edge of the boolit base becomes a real possiblity.

By water quenching I keep a soft rag or old t shirt on the bttm of the containier and, if casting a lot, I will add a soft cloth to make a layered cushion as I cast and, in my opinion, reduces the denting caused by handling and such.

Everybody learns as they go with casting and with 45 boolits I quench for quality not for hardness.

[Bkid]

What about heat treating in a oven to get a consistant hardness. Not saying you need it though. I think you are fine for 45 just droping on a towel and pushing to the end as mentioned.

[shooter75126]

I tore an old white tshirt in half, cut a 2 inch slot in the middle, and I tie it around the top of my drop bucket with a bungee cord. The bullets hit the shirt, and the weight of the bullet rolls it to the middle and into the water. No splash out of the bucket. I'm using a 3 gallon bucket filled about 3/4 of the way with water. I water drop all of my bullets.

[Ricochet]

It's both easier and perfectly safe to water drop in a bucket on the floor, with the pot on the bench.

[bbailey7821]

I use a five gallon bucket on the floor. I've never had any problem with splashing. I also have experienced far less leading problems in my lever gun at the higher velocities that it produces in 44 mag.

[Dennis Eugene]

I water drop everything 'cause I'm just lazy I guess and it is easier than any other way. I cover my water with a layer of styphome peanuts and it does not splash. Even if it did splash and hit my pot the water will almost never cause a steam explosion due to the fact that it will never make it below the surface of the lead with out boiling off almost instantaneously. I been doing it this way as long as I've been casting and don't figger on bothering to try anything else.

[44man]

Heck, I even drop pure lead balls in water, soooo easy! :mrgreen:

[HammerMTB]

I don't water drop a lot of boolits cause I don't need to and a softer boolit will obturate easier.
I air cool .40 cal 175's, a buncha .44 cal weights, and both .45 ACP and .45 Colt boolits. Oh, .45/350's for the .45/70 too.
I haven't had a leading problem with any yet. when velocitys are high enough to warrant it, I use a gas check. The .45/70 is PP'd

[HangFireW8]

I have heard .45ACP bullets need not be quenched for light target loads...but why NOT quench them? If it will help prevent the possibility of leading why not do it?

Too much hardness can increase the chance of leading. 45 ACP requires almost exactly the hardness that Wheel Weights deliver air cooled (with or without a little added solder).

Another factor is that the water quenched boolits will loose their extra hardness over a few years.

If you like water quenching and it works for you and your gun, go for it. I do it myself, but not for every boolit, just those that need it.

-HF

[swallytrip]

Too much hardness can increase the chance of leading. 45 ACP requires almost exactly the hardness that Wheel Weights deliver air cooled (with or without a little added solder).

Another factor is that the water quenched boolits will loose their extra hardness over a few years.

If you like water quenching and it works for you and your gun, go for it. I do it myself, but not for every boolit, just those that need it.

-HF

Few years ? man I'm lucky to have mine a few days.:Fire:

[Char-Gar]

I think you need to do whatever you want to do, and that includes quenching if that is what tickles your fancy. Do it and then you will know whether or not it is a good idea. Asking questions on Internet boards will give you opinions but not experience. At the end of the day, it is experience that will make you a savy bullet caster/handloader.

[Lavid2002]

Yes ....but right now im filling *This* Space


Ordering my equipment< *This* < Casting

: )

[MtGun44]

Lavid2002 said "If it will help prevent the possibility of leading"

This is FALSE! Harder DOES NOT prevent the possibility of leading!!

You can lead with hard and lead with soft, leading IS NOT PREVENTED BY HARDER BOOLITS
as a general principle.

We keep having to stomp on this darned old wives tale, which keeps being sold
by the (frequently completely ignorant) commercial casters.

Water drop if you want, don't if you want, makes no difference to me. I find absolutely
no benefit in pistol loads to water quench. I do not get leading at .44 Mag or .357 mag
maximum velocities with good boolit designs, good fit and good lubricants. GCs are also
a bandaid for poor design, fit or lube. Not that GCs don't work, they do. However they
add cost, time and fiddlyness (if that is a word) to the process and are absolutely not
necessary in any regular or magnum pistol that I have ever tried - which is almost all
calibers of normal pistols. GCs are a real benefit for rifles at velocities above the highest
that you can really obtain in the magnum pistols (I have not worked with .500 mag or
the new S&W super .45 on the X-frame, I forget what it is called) - maybe GC or hard
boolits are required there, pressures and velocities have much more in common with
rifles than pistols with these calibers. Obviously, 7-08 in pistol (I have one) needs a
GC if you are going to run it at 2000 or better, again - really a rifle round.

DESIGN --- FIT -- LUBE ---- and if you want to try hardness, some have reported improved
accuracy. I do not say they are wrong, just that none of my guns have showed it to me.

As to 'just as easy' --- RIGHT, hauling around a bucket of water, fishing out wet boolits,
drying them off, etc is JUST AS EASY as dropping them on a towel and then putting them
in a box. Hockeypucky. But it is a free country, have at it, enjoy the hobby and do what
you think works best for YOU. No complaints from me, but I will reserve the right to see
it from a different point of view.

Bill

[fredj338]

It's both easier and perfectly safe to water drop in a bucket on the floor, with the pot on the bench.

I cast both ways, but don't get the "Easier" part of water dropping. I drop ont a folded towel, actually easier as the bench I cast on is the same height as the paltform I drop onto. The bucket is on the floor, not easier IMO. Water dropping is just not needed w/ slower moving 45acp, but if you like doing it, more power to ya.

[armyrat1970]

Lavid2002 said "If it will help prevent the possibility of leading"

This is FALSE! Harder DOES NOT prevent the possibility of leading!!

You can lead with hard and lead with soft, leading IS NOT PREVENTED BY HARDER BOOLITS
as a general principle.

We keep having to stomp on this darned old wives tale, which keeps being sold
by the (frequently completely ignorant) commercial casters.

Water drop if you want, don't if you want, makes no difference to me. I find absolutely
no benefit in pistol loads to water quench. I do not get leading at .44 Mag or .357 mag
maximum velocities with good boolit designs, good fit and good lubricants. GCs are also
a bandaid for poor design, fit or lube. Not that GCs don't work, they do. However they
add cost, time and fiddlyness (if that is a word) to the process and are absolutely not
necessary in any regular or magnum pistol that I have ever tried - which is almost all
calibers of normal pistols. GCs are a real benefit for rifles at velocities above the highest
that you can really obtain in the magnum pistols (I have not worked with .500 mag or
the new S&W super .45 on the X-frame, I forget what it is called) - maybe GC or hard
boolits are required there, pressures and velocities have much more in common with
rifles than pistols with these calibers. Obviously, 7-08 in pistol (I have one) needs a
GC if you are going to run it at 2000 or better, again - really a rifle round.

DESIGN --- FIT -- LUBE ---- and if you want to try hardness, some have reported improved
accuracy. I do not say they are wrong, just that none of my guns have showed it to me.

As to 'just as easy' --- RIGHT, hauling around a bucket of water, fishing out wet boolits,
drying them off, etc is JUST AS EASY as dropping them on a towel and then putting them
in a box. Hockeypucky. But it is a free country, have at it, enjoy the hobby and do what
you think works best for YOU. No complaints from me, but I will reserve the right to see
it from a different point of view.

Bill

As I posted a reply before. I tend to agree with all of your sentiments.

[Bret4207]

Not much I can add to Bills post either. It's personal preference. Some people stick to doing things one way forever, others try different things all the time. Do what pleases you. FIT IS KING with cast, that's all there is to it. the one hard and fast rule. Everything else follows.

[44man]

Lavid2002 said "If it will help prevent the possibility of leading"

This is FALSE! Harder DOES NOT prevent the possibility of leading!!

You can lead with hard and lead with soft, leading IS NOT PREVENTED BY HARDER BOOLITS
as a general principle.

We keep having to stomp on this darned old wives tale, which keeps being sold
by the (frequently completely ignorant) commercial casters.

Water drop if you want, don't if you want, makes no difference to me. I find absolutely
no benefit in pistol loads to water quench. I do not get leading at .44 Mag or .357 mag
maximum velocities with good boolit designs, good fit and good lubricants. GCs are also
a bandaid for poor design, fit or lube. Not that GCs don't work, they do. However they
add cost, time and fiddlyness (if that is a word) to the process and are absolutely not
necessary in any regular or magnum pistol that I have ever tried - which is almost all
calibers of normal pistols. GCs are a real benefit for rifles at velocities above the highest
that you can really obtain in the magnum pistols (I have not worked with .500 mag or
the new S&W super .45 on the X-frame, I forget what it is called) - maybe GC or hard
boolits are required there, pressures and velocities have much more in common with
rifles than pistols with these calibers. Obviously, 7-08 in pistol (I have one) needs a
GC if you are going to run it at 2000 or better, again - really a rifle round.

DESIGN --- FIT -- LUBE ---- and if you want to try hardness, some have reported improved
accuracy. I do not say they are wrong, just that none of my guns have showed it to me.

As to 'just as easy' --- RIGHT, hauling around a bucket of water, fishing out wet boolits,
drying them off, etc is JUST AS EASY as dropping them on a towel and then putting them
in a box. Hockeypucky. But it is a free country, have at it, enjoy the hobby and do what
you think works best for YOU. No complaints from me, but I will reserve the right to see
it from a different point of view.

Bill
This is entirely correct, leading has nothing to do with hardness.
Hardness controls accuracy where needed in some guns.
If you push soft lead wrong it will lead WORSE, push it right and even pure will not lead the bore.
I find a PB just needs to be harder so the base band takes the rifling without a leak.
If you want accuracy you do not want any boolit expansion, slump or skidding so you need to control hardness for your application.
My water bucket is off to the side on a short stool so I don't have to bend over, just turn and drop.
Then remember a drop of water on top of lead is not dangerous anyway. Only if it gets under the surface will it blow out lead as it turns to steam. Been doing it for years and I still keep the bucket off to the side, away from the pot just in case.
Real heavy BPCR boolits are still dropped on rags because they are too soft and heavy even falling through water.
If you tell anyone hard lead will lead the bore, you are entirely wrong. You have something else wrong to start with.
Water dropped WW's do not change the composition of the lead but it toughens the surface enough to grip rifling.
You should thank the lead Gods that you have some control to match what your gun likes.
I would prefer a skin, the depth of rifling, as hard as copper, with a core of soft lead. But they do make jacketed boolits that solve all of that!

[Lavid2002]

OK Just read some pretty good articles a google search brought up about it. Just had a gunsmith at work tell me if I can scratch it with my nail it will lead my bore. He said it was all about hardness. . . . Makes me questions peoples credentials on other things lol

[Black Wolf]

I water quench everything (I mainly use WWs); except - pure lead bullets for my BP firearms and also my bullets for my Vetterli rifles. Both are air cooled. BP firearms use soft lead, and the Vetterli shoots fine with air cooled WWs (not too hard and not too soft).

[Blammer]

Blammer mentions he's never culled because of dents. With bevel base boolits dents are very unlikely to cause a problum.

Move to a flat based boolit like the 429421 or 358429 and denting on the edge of the boolit base becomes a real possiblity.


I cast a huge pile of 429421's and several other big 44 plain bases. I also finished casting several hundred of the 503 HP's with that star HP on it with the "tender'' nose HP edges. No dent's no rejects. I even cast a large pile of 326407's the loverin style with all them little lube grooves, no dent's on them. If you're denting boolits to the point of rejecting them by dropping them out of the mould 4" on to a pile of boolits I'd be surprised.

And I only have ONE bevel base boolit I cast, and I just got that one recently.


David, your 'gunsmith' don't know squat about lead cast boolits being shot out of guns. I'd ask that gunsmith about jacketed bullets, you can't scratch them with your nail yet they leave a deposit in the barrel. See what he says.

[man.electric]

Try casting both ways and see which one you prefer to shoot. If there is no noticeable difference between the two, stick with what works best for you. If you think that water quenched boolits work better, then shoot only water quenched. The only guaranteed thing in casting is that the more confidence you have in you ammunition, the better you will shoot.

[82nd airborne]

i use a 3 gal bucket 3/4 full then put about four inches of packing penuts on top of the water, keeps them from splashing, and slows them down a little. if i the gun im casting for likes air cooled boolits, i wont mess with the extra step.

[1Shirt]

Like Lloyd S says, try it, trial and error teaches a lot. It is good to see Ricochet back!
1Shirt!

[fredj338]

OK Just read some pretty good articles a google search brought up about it. Just had a gunsmith at work tell me if I can scratch it with my nail it will lead my bore. He said it was all about hardness. . . . Makes me questions peoples credentials on other things lol
HA! Gunsmiths are NOT ammo ro relaoding or casting intelligent. I have run 25-1LHP @ 1250fps w/ little to no leading, pretty soft. YOu can even run pure lead bullets to 1000fps w/ no leading (maybe faster, haven't tried).

[jbremount]

There definitely is a place for water quenching bullets if you shoot homemade cast bullets. Water quenching bullets toughen the surface of the bullets so that the rifling can grip it much better. FWIK, just air cooled bullets are a BHN of approx. 10-13. The same bullets, water quenched, can get up to 18 BHN factor. If you cast to save money, water quenching is a very inexpensive way to get a harder bullet. The harder water quenched bullet makes a difference if you are shooting velocities over 1000 fps from a pistol with a fast twist(1/9xx twist) and high pressures round like the 9mm. The harder water quenched bullets completely solved my problem by allowing the rifling to grip the bullet better. Better grip on the bullet and no leading .(http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=80534&page=4)

[Bret4207]

Your gunnysmith is just repeating what he believes, he means well. We've put a lot of old wives tales to bed here. This "hardness" tale is one that keeps coming back. FIT COMES FIRST. Then you play with lubes, alloy (Bhn), seating depth and all the other stuff in the search for the ultimate fit with that boolit in that gun.

[troy_mclure]

i cant quench cause i have too much arsenic in my alloy. it leaves shavings in the barrel if i water drop, but not air drop.

[Bass Ackward]

The biggest misrepresentation that this board has never put to rest is that not all leading (fouling) negatively affects accuracy. Just like not all coopering will destroy groups. Someone who works up their loads after fouling regardless of the metal type generally has more freedom or I should say longer shot string accuracy year round because they are riding metal to metal of the same type.

We learn as kids that if you want a screw NOT to back out that you use lock washers or what ever, when the best thing is to use a different material from your hole such as brass in steel.

Is lead, or copper for that matter, any different to steel?

The problem with lead comes from personal preference. If, and there is always a when eventually, you are forced to clean for some reason, then you have to fire enough slugs to foul the barrel again to return to the accuracy. And because it is hard to clean or requires cleaning period, is the fact that we search for the bullet, lube, hardness that WILL NOT lead. Truth for cast is that everything leads .... eventually anyway.

That is the cross this board bears. It is why there are humpteen different opinions on everything that is discussed. And if someone has a different opinion, which was derived from their trials and errors, then you ain't gonna change it with a board discussion no matter how many "facts" you throw at it. That fella is simply glad he has something that works for him.

RPMs or high velocity comes to mind here. Until somebody is able to reproduce something for themselves, they are just fine where they are at. And they will develop theories to go faster until they give up. Then theories why they can not. Same with hard or soft.

And at the basis for that position or every other one this board discusses starts with the assumption that zero leading is possible or even desireable. Which is technically false. :grin:

[waksupi]

i cant quench cause i have too much arsenic in my alloy. it leaves shavings in the barrel if i water drop, but not air drop.


I suspect the antimony isn't the problem there. Size and lube, more likely.

[armyrat1970]

I suspect the antimony isn't the problem there. Size and lube, more likely.

I agree on some points. He did say arsenic and not antimony. And some alloys do contain arsenic, which adds to hardness. It would be better if he specified what alloy he is using, along with bore size and boolit diameter
I do agree that the hardness isn't the problem. More likely boolit fit and possibly his lubing techniques. Many forget lubing plays a roll also in reducing leading.
For instance, you lube than size, than relube before loading the boolit into the charged case. How many forget to relube after sizing, or don't think it is needed?
Harder boolits, driven at the same velocity and pressure as a softer boolit, with poor bullet fit to groove, will give more leading. The softer boolit will tend to fill the grooves better, and the harder boolit, will tend to just skim over the lands and be shaved. JMO.

[44man]

I agree with Bass and a few others. It is always a sticky question to solve.
But he forgets, there are degrees of leading. That which shoots out with each shot, that which never builds up and that which will fill the grooves solid.
I don't agree with a bunch of shots needed after cleaning either, it only takes ONE shot if everything is correct. Many of the groups I have posted were shot starting with a CLEAN bore. I only "season" frying pans! You can't make a non stick barrel by shooting 50 rounds.
If water dropped and left to age a while, the boolit should harden and GROW in diameter faster then air cooled. But this is of little use if the mold drops boolits too small to start with and they won't grow enough to fit.
I want the bore to size my boolits, not the pressure. Forcing a boolit larger with pressure only solves the leading problem, nothing else.
Ever try to put the cork back in a wine bottle? Once in, it does not leak. Far better then putting in a smaller cork and beating on it. :veryconfu
Before I would make boolits softer to expand to obturate the bore I would buy a better mold that casts a larger one or fix the mold I have. Then you can shoot both hard and softer down to the point the boolit skids or slumps. Then you ruin it all anyway.
Bret always says it correct, fit is king FIRST. That lets you work alloys all over the place up to the hardest you can cast without breaking from being brittle.
Going softer and softer even with the proper fit will start with fliers appearing and then groups will just blow apart to patterns.
Using a soft, under size boolit will start with patterns.
I fully understand that some just want the gun to shoot and not lead. Close range, steel plate shooting, etc, where accuracy is not needed. That is where softer is OK. I can only assure you that if done wrong, the little close range gun will lead like crazy too.

[Fugowii]

I have a ton of water quenched boolits that I cast recently and found they lead my barrels just as
'good' as the softer ones. I need to get the fit right and try out both ways. I have a .430-.4305
bore and am sizing to .430. Gee, I wonder why I'm getting leading? :groner:

[44man]

I have a ton of water quenched boolits that I cast recently and found they lead my barrels just as
'good' as the softer ones. I need to get the fit right and try out both ways. I have a .430-.4305
bore and am sizing to .430. Gee, I wonder why I'm getting leading? :groner:
Well, I shoot a lot of .430" boolits from a .430" groove with no leading but that .0005" over you find might not be good. A .431" to .432" would be better.
But your alloy could be the cause too and is why I don't like to go by BHN because too many alloys will read the same. If your antimony is not bound in the alloy with enough tin, antimony can move to the surface when cooling and rub off. If there is not a trace of arsenic, the lead will not harden as much and will soften faster with age. I don't profess to know that much about alloys but there are more reasons for leading not thought of because we only have Brinnel to go by.
Look at steel. You can have a knife at 58 Rockwell that never seems to get dull but a stainless blade will just not hold an edge at the same hardness.
A few small strands of lead on the first patch is nothing to worry about and as Bass said, it is hard to prevent all of it although I sometimes clean and find none at all. The next time will have some loose stuff that comes out.
You must use a good jag and never a slotted rod end, they will not remove anything but dirt and carbon.
Next is the lube, the wrong lube can ruin accuracy and also lead the bore. I use Felix and Carnauba Red. LBT soft is good. Hard lube or LLA will not shoot for me at all. In fact I don't like any Alox at all. Some Alox lubes are OK but I attribute it to the other ingredients masking the junk. The flash point is too low and if you shoot smoke, find something else.
I really like Felix lube because I can rub it into the grooves with my fingers and run the boolit through an oversize die to remove excess. I don't size unless I have to. It also cuts groups in half from Alox lubes.
I learned years ago that 50 rounds loaded right is better then boxes and boxes of poor shooting stuff.
I have gotten away from saying "hard" cast because most of my boolits are no harder then someone else uses but they are "tougher." Mine are nowhere near the hard commercial stuff.
I got some free samples from Laser Cast once and they leaded the bore and shot very badly. First, they are the wrong size for all guns.

[Lavid2002]

I am still confused about why people lube twice. I will be pan-lubing. Will I have to pan lube-resize, then pan lube AGAIN? Why is that necessary? Why cant I Just pan lube, size, then forget about it. Or better yet...why do I need to lube prior to sizing? Why cant I size then lube then blast away?

Thanks
-Dave

[AZ-Stew]

I use a lubricator/sizer, so I only have to run the boolits through once to both lube and size, with one exception. The rifle boolits I heat treat are sized only, then heat treated and quenched. Later I'll run them through the sizer using a die .001 larger than the original sizer to add the lube.

To expand on a previous post you made, ask your gunsmith how a T/C Maxi bullet or other unpatched muzzle loader bullet of pure lead can be driven over 1,200 fps with no discernable leading.

Regards,

Stew

[Lavid2002]

How about for me though? Can I cast, size, lube, then shoot? I dont see why the first lube is necessary... : /

[Blammer]

ever tried getting a boolit through a sizer without any lube?

[Lavid2002]

Never even sized before : D

Is it really that hard?


If so, why do I need to RE lube? Doesn't a fair amount stay in the lube groove?

[Blammer]

without some type of lube it will be very difficult.

can't help with the relubing bit, I only use my lyman 450 sizer/luber

[bohokii]

i run my bullets through the sizer unlubed

about every 10th one i rub a bullet on a candle so maybe that is using lube

but i just send through my lee tl design bullets just to true them up i like nice smooth sides for seating it also helps me pick out the undersize ones when i feel no resistance that was a bad one that slipped through primary inspection

[KYCaster]

I am still confused about why people lube twice. I will be pan-lubing. Will I have to pan lube-resize, then pan lube AGAIN? Why is that necessary? Why cant I Just pan lube, size, then forget about it. Or better yet...why do I need to lube prior to sizing? Why cant I size then lube then blast away?

Thanks
-Dave



Dave,
They're talking about "tumble lubing". A different process than your pan lubing.

If your boolits are the right diameter as they drop from the mold then sizing is unnecessary.

If you need to size then it may be difficult to do without some kind of lube on the boolits....or maybe not....you'll just have to try it and see for yourself. If you pan lube first then size, the results should be the same as you'll get with a lube/sizer; lube left in the lube grooves, none on the driving bands.

Some guys use spray on case sizing lube for the initial sizing before lubing. Those who tumble lube usually lube before sizing, then have to replace the lube that was wiped off by the sizing die.

Jerry

P.S....Don't ask me why tumble lube needs to be applied to the driving bands and other lubes don't. That's one of those "imponderables" that I'm not going to spend any time on since I don't tumble lube. :confused:

[Crash_Corrigan]

I water drop all my cast boolits. For the .45 ACP's after casting I dip them into a mix of DAWN dishwashing detergent and water for a lube and run them thru a Lee sizer.

After sizing I lube twice with JPW and LLA. One light coating and they are put on waxed paper for drying overnight. 2nd day another light coating and another drying on waxed paper.

Then they get a tumble in a plastic container with corn starch to keep them from messing up my dies and they store with out sticking together.

I have in the past run the .45 thru my Lubricizer and lubed with Carnuba REd but my groups are tighter with the LLA and JPW.

Examination of the completed boolits after lubing and such reveals that the LLA/JPW boolits are about .0005 bigger in dia than the one run thru the Lubricizer.

I went out and got a bigger lubricizer die and tried that and the boolits would not chamber 100% of the time. I guess I need to hone out the smaller dies a mite to equal the LLA/JPW diameter.

After all this experimenting I gotta go with Bret4207's ideas about FIT IS KING.
Who would have believed that a boolit just a smidge bigger in dia would shoot so much better than a smaller boolit?

I will say that the LLA/JPW method is more work than the SAECO lubricizer. A lot less work and a lot faster is the Lubricizer method however accuracy is what I want and I am willing to do the work to get it.

[HangFireW8]

Lavid2002 said "If it will help prevent the possibility of leading"

This is FALSE! Harder DOES NOT prevent the possibility of leading!!


That's what I said, but without so many exclamation points.

That's not what he said either, he said "IF it will HELP prevent".

-HF

[KYCaster]

Why NOT quench?

Ummmmm...........

1) I don't have to.

2) It adds several steps to the casting process that I consider unnecessary.

3) It adds a variable that's very difficult to control...(varying the time from cutting the sprue till the boolit hits the water will result in inconsistent hardness)

4) Since you can't see the boolits after they drop from the mold it's more difficult to recognize a problem when it occurs.

5) I don't have to. (Did I already say that?)

We had this same discussion a couple months ago and the consensus then was that It's just another tool. You can use it if you like or not if you don't like. My complaint at the time was that newbees were beginning to think that it is necessary and were being encouraged to do it regardless of the benefits.(or lack thereof)

Could I improve my boolits by water quenching? Maybe....I don't know....I haven't tried it. Eventually I'll explore that possibility, but I've gotten some pretty good results without it so it's not real high on my priority list.

Just don't try to tell me it's "easier" or "more convenient". Just say "I like to do it that way." That's the only excuse you need.

Jerry

[44man]

KY, it IS easier for me because I cast on my work bench in the garage between a grinder, vise and drill press. It is a pain with rags and moving boolits.
I use two molds at once most times and when the pot gets empty I either pour out the water or just reach in and grab out hand fulls to put on an old towel.
If anyone can tell the difference between one boolit and another from a few seconds difference in dump time, they must shoot one hole groups all the time.

[armyrat1970]

Never even sized before : D

Is it really that hard?


If so, why do I need to RE lube? Doesn't a fair amount stay in the lube groove?

Lavid. If you never size your boolits, there is no need to re-lube them. When sizing, at least with my Lee sizers, it does remove some lube and leaves bear alloy. It is best to re-lube after sizing.
Don't know about other lube/sizers. But after sizing I want some lube on my driving bands also.
I have been given some cast bullets that were not tumble lubed but only had the lube groove filled. This is fine as the lube will, or should, spread through the bore as the boolit is driven through. Tumble lubing does not fill the grooves as much. You only get a light coat over the whole boolit. Even on the nose which is not needed. Therefore, after sizing, you want to lube again to replace any of the lube that has been removed from the driving bands. Sizing will remove the lube from the driving bands.
The cast bullets I received had the grooves filled, but no lube on the bands. I tumble lubed them, then sized, then relubed. Haven't shot them yet, but I am thinking I will get no leading. If I do my part.

[Lavid2002]

I have since made my first cast, air dropping is incredibly easy. I thought boolits that hit each other would deform and it isnt the case. That being said I still cleared a spot for the new ones that were going to be dropped.

-Dave

[grouch]

Why not? Because some of my rifles shoot better with the same bullets air cooled - you have to try it.
Grouch