sizing

[sisiphunter]

I keep hearing folks talk about the fit of the PP boolit into the casing. I have also read a few times on here that a snug fit into an unsized case.

I have always full sized my casings. I know of the collet neck sizing and want to try that out as well, but are folks, just not sizing at all for PP????

I've got a bunch of variables loaded up over the last few weeks and can't wait to go to the range. just waitng for everything to dry up around here....rain and snow for the past week isnt helping much

Thanks, Matt

[docone31]

Matt,
the paper jacket replaces a copper jacket. That is it.
The same principles apply for paper jacketing as copper jacketed.
You will get more reloads out of neck sizeing.
There are folks who are making a career out of paper patching. It is simple, just do not roll crimp the case when done.

[303Guy]

What docone31 says and then some. In the quest for good throat fit or basically to get as big a boolit into the chamber as possible, one can size that PP boolit to fit snugly into an unsized neck. One needs to be careful so as not to actually expand the neck. Good neck tension on the PPCBoo is achieved without actually expanding the neck by a measurable amount - the patch compresses and grips the lead core. But if you are going to seat a PPCBoo like a j-word then only just enough sizing is required. Too much sizing and the seating force can bend the boolit! (Just don't ask me how I know [smilie=1: ) Not to mention sizing down the patch and maybe also the lead core.

[pdawg_shooter]

I size to .001/.0015 over BORE diameter and patch as large as will fit the throat. I have always get my best accuracy loading un-sized brass. Seat the bullet just enough to hold it and let the rifle finish seating the bullet. For hunting or feeding from a magazine, I do neck size.

[Zeek]

How large your over-the-patch-diameter can be and still work is, to a great extent, controlled by your rifle's throating design. For example, with a standard 308W throating (short 0.310" diameter cylinder section behind a three-degree-included-angle leade cone), your patch MUST be able to enter that 0.310" cylindrical portion of the throating. Otherwise, the patch will be ruined. So, the as-rolled or as-sized PPatch diameter must be no larger than 0.311" (preferably 0.309" to 0.310", but a scant bit larger CAN work).

Now, by comparison, a 7mm Mauser has a gentle chambermouth-to-throating transition cone angle of 30 degress included (15 degrees per side), so a PPatch that is larger in diameter than the all-leade-cone throating's entry diameter (0.2907") will size-down nicely during chambering of the round (assuming that it is an as-wrapped diameter . . . a hard-sized {patch is a hard covering} PPatch much larger than that would NOT size down).

Most older military chamberings (other than the 30-06) have a gentle-angle leade cone with a larger than groove diameter entry diameter. These, too, allow one to use a fairly large-diameter PPatch (large because it is left unsized after wrapping), and the sizing-down happens during chambering.

The neck I.D. of the fired case will vary considerably, from rifle to rifle. So, the trick is to measure that ID then determine if a PPatch of that diameter would fit into your rifle's throating reliably (no trearing and the PPCBoo can be pushed far enough forward to preclude way-too-deep seating). So you "ask your rifle" (by measuring the fired caseneck I.D. and trying your prferred CBoo wrapped to this diameter. . . . pushing it home in the throating with a dowel, measureing the resulting LOA, and then ejecting the PPCBoo and inspecting it for damage). If the approach works in your neighbor's same-type rifle, that does NOT mean that it will work in yours. So, the real trick, here, is to always "Ask your rifle." and then listen to its answer.
Zeek

[303Guy]

Sticky 101 material on paper patching, Zeek!:drinks:

[sisiphunter]

Thanks, guys....cleared that up a bit...

Now for another. I am having some really bad leading issues with my ppatch boolits.

I went out testing a dozen different loads today. I had two different powders going (Unique 13gr and Trailboss 12.5gr).

I had three different patch materials. The lined notebook paper: horrible leading in the Unique and minimal with trailboss, but got keyholing of two out of 5 boolits with tb.

tried 3 wraps of onionskin (I dont know why I cannot give that stuff up). these would not even camber. (sized to .314" after patching too.)

two wraps of brown unbleached coffee filter. sized .314", stiff into chamber, but tolerable. less leading, but still some. hit 12" high (at fifty yrds from a steady rest) 4" spread left to right with Unique......with trailboss, was much cleaner, but still some leading and still not acceptable accuracy (looks like a shotgun blast with 00 buck).

i've tried all kinds of paper, sizing, lube, no lube, I just dont know.....kinda getting frustrated about the whole PP thing here. BUt I do not want to give up yet. I just have had no success in any of it. always leading and quite a bit too, getting tired of scrubbing the bore down all the time. no acceptable accuracy at all.

i've asked a few times on the forum for help and always get it, but it just does not work in my rifle.....i'm kinda thinking it may be the rifle. it shoots very well with jacketed, but no with lead at all...I have no gaschecks, so I cannot try that out.

My next approach is to try a different 303B. The one I have been using is a 1909 vintage. my other is a 1944. both no1 mk3's.

do ya think the rifle change may help my situation???? I really wanted the 1909 to be my pp gun, but maybe it is just not in the cards.

thanks, Matt

[sisiphunter]

realize that all of my particulars are not in this thread so i will update, so as not to confuse ( i am easily confused)

303brittish
160gr lee 309" tl GC boolit cast of 50%lead, 50% ww and a little 50/50 solder thrown in for good measure and tin of course
sized to .309" with Lee sizer.
wet wrapped then sized to .314" with lee again no lube at all
I am not looking for a high velocity round here, looking for an easy shooter, maybe even for varmints (ground squirrels, coyotes, etc.) I want my boolit soft, so possibly for whitetails too.

Matt

[303Guy]

sisiphunter, there's no way that 303 Brit is gonna defeat you!

Are you able to measure the chamber neck diameter?

My older rifles with the barrels as I got them will chamber huge boolits. I'm talking .318 at the seating area. My newer barreled rifles require a two-diameter boolit.

My worst bore gun is my Pig Gun. That has a bore that looks like and old water pipe. It will lead with the same load another gun handles fine. I developed a load for it that does not lead but does disinterate the patch.

I like my boolits soft but I cannot tell you what they compare to. I anneal them if I think they're too hard.

So what could be causing the leading, or what I would call patch failure? Wrong choise of paper for that particular bore? No idea. Wrong choice of powder? Maybe. I have had shotgun powder (similar to Bullseye) causing patch failure. Your charge of 13gr Unique might be too much for a soft alloy in your barrel. The boolit could be expanding into the gap between the case mouth and chamber end, resulting in patch failure there. I got something like that. Now I am using AR2205/H4227 under a heavier boolit than you and that does not cause patch failure. I have loaded some bent boolits (they bent during seating) and these had poor accuracy and showed yaw on the target.

Can the patch be getting torn during seating? Could the the boolit core be moving in the patch when fired and exposing lead to the bore?

Another point I should mention - I have fire-lapped that bore (and all my bad bores). I have a good bored rifle that had a light rust layer. That one was having patch failure until fire-lapping. So although the bore looked good, it was rough enough to destroy the patch.

On a good bore, a paper patch will handle full power loads with rifle powder but the pressure build up is slower than with fast powders even though the max pressure is higher.

Can you post pics of your boolit cores, patched boolits and loaded cases? What do your fired primers look like?

[docone31]

Matt, you are doing everything but what it needs.
You might have to go larger than .314, but first, six the lube, and bump the charge. Paper patching makes a mess at sneeze loads.
Start with minimum jacketed load data. Do not lube the patches, just wax them to push them through the sizeing die. Water drop the castings.
With my .303 SMLE, I water drop my castings, size them to .308, two wraps of notebook paper, sized to .314. I use the Lee 185gn .303 casting. Great stuff. I use zinc in my alloy.
If, with full tilt loads, you still get tearing, leading, put some lapping compound on the patch. This will either clean up the bore, or, it will show more thickness is needed. Unsized, the patch is .317-.318. It might need a large patched load.
I have never gotten sneeze loads to fire in a Smelly. Also, look to the dies. Are they tearing the patch? I had to get my dies modified to work with paper.

[rhbrink]

docone31 just asking what kind of lapping compound are you suggesting, the only kind that I have available in my area is the stuff from a auto supply store seems rather course to me? Thanks.

[docone31]

I use regular lapping compound.
Sure makes a shiney bore.

[303Guy]

For obviously rusted bores, I use fine valve grinding paste. I also use a brass bullet so as to force the compound into the deepest groves and corners. It's amazing the thickness of rust and other crud that can build up in the grooves. Then I switch to milder compounds. I'm not sure how effective the milder abrasives are. I've also been able to clean up a bore using 'Scotch Brite' abrasive pads. It's also good for cleaning out leading and copper fouling.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/PigGunFire-LapCartridge.jpg

The abrasive is held in a groove inside the neck. The front bands are guides and engage the rifling making sure the bullit is following the twist before the abrasive hits and are sized to fit the throat.

[rhead]

+1 on the starting loads for same weight jacketed. Try the slowest appropriate powder and work up slowly. My 30 30 gives best results with 4350. I have never gotten satisfactory results with fast powders and paper patched in rifles. I firelap using jewlers rouge on paper patches. Docone1 uses something a little coarser.

[pdawg_shooter]

+1 on the starting loads for same weight jacketed. Try the slowest appropriate powder and work up slowly. My 30 30 gives best results with 4350. I have never gotten satisfactory results with fast powders and paper patched in rifles. I firelap using jewlers rouge on paper patches. Docone1 uses something a little coarser.

+1 on the slow powder. I get the best accuracy at or near 100% load density. Pick a powder that will give you the velocity you want just about the time the bullet starts to compress the powder.

[303Guy]

I firelap using jewlers rouge on paper patches.Where does one get jewlers rouge?

[rhead]

Where does one get jewlers rouge?

I got mine at home depot. Packaged by Dremil. A lapidary supply should have some. The finest grit of valve grinding compound should do fine also.

[sisiphunter]

ok, i have not had a chance to get back to work on this I've been at work a ton lately...As for the chamber sizing I tried the 3 wraps on onionskin and it would not chamber at all....the lined notebook paper chambered slightly stiff and i tried un-chambering that live round and it did not rip the paper.

I may have to go with a rifle powder as you all say...i really like the reduced loads but if they are not working than what is the use in using them i guess.

thanks for the advise. i wil hopefully report back soon with my next trials.

Thanks, Matt