How did this dud happen?

[Dave B]

Marlin 32 mag had about 10 duds out of 50. 100 gr plain base with 5 gr Unique with Win primers. Upon hammer strike, nothing, not even a pop. The other 80% shot normal. I took some apart this evening and there was no powder at all. I have had a couple of squibs without powder before in other guns and they pushed the bullet up the bbl a little and made a little bang. The bases of the bullets did have a little soot on them. They were not crimped very hard either. Any ideas?

[462]

Clue number 1: No powder.

Personal experience number 1: Not long ago, I had a Winchester large rifle primer that failed to ignite.

[theperfessor]

What kind of loader, etc are you using? What are your loading procedures? Do/can you check the powder level in the case before seating the bullet? Where did the powder go that didn't end up in your rounds?

Getting a bad primer is annoying, but there isn't much you can do about. Creating
powderless duds is also annoying too, but you can do something about that.

[The Double D]

I have done this a couple of time over the years.

Fifty cases in the loading block. Run the first row of ten under the powder measure, run the second row of 10 under the powder measure. Turn the block around and run the fifth row under the powder measure, then run the fourth row under the powder measure...seat the bullets.

After doing this a couple of times I added a flashlight to my loading bench and look down in the cases after charging and before seating. It helps because I have found row three cases all empty.

[lylejb]

I use a homemade loading block with 80 holes. I load in batches of fifty. I move the cases from one side to the other as I progress with each step.

The extra rows always leave an empty row or two between stages, so there's no guessing which have been done.

never had a no powder load this way.

[ETG]

I have done this a couple of time over the years.

Fifty cases in the loading block. Run the first row of ten under the powder measure, run the second row of 10 under the powder measure. Turn the block around and run the fifth row under the powder measure, then run the fourth row under the powder measure...seat the bullets.

After doing this a couple of times I added a flashlight to my loading bench and look down in the cases after charging and before seating. It helps because I have found row three cases all empty.

+1 - I bought a little LED light on a flex neck for a couple bucks. Pass the light over each cart in the loading try. Can't believe how many empty carts I have found!!!!! 30 years ago I didn't do this and I don't ever remember having a squib load!!!!!!!!!

[DLCTEX]

I almost seated a bullet on an empty case last night. I was loading 22-250 with 3031 using a Lee PPM (throws very accurate charges) and had to use a funnel to charge the cases due to bridging. After charging all 60 cases I gave them a quick visual inspection for powder level and started seating bullets with my Rockchucker. I look into every case as I seat them into the shell holder. It paid off as I found an empty case. I had missed it when charging and inspecting (too quick), but the third check caught it. Now I've got to load some with boolits and go give the prairie dogs some trouble.

[Bret4207]

No powder= pilot error.

[gray wolf]

I never load cases while they sit in the loading block.
I have the loading block on the bench EMPTY, The cases are in a bowl next to it.
I pick up a case and charge it and THEN put it in the loading block.
At that point I know that if it is in the loading block it has powder in it or it should.
But I still check for powder and powder level with the little mag light.

[qajaq59]

All my my cases sit in the loading block with the primers facing up until they get powder in them. But I still check all of them with the flash light before I seat the bullets. It takes less time to check them then it does to get a stuck bullet out of the rifle barrel.

[Dave B]

I think ,but am not positive, these were loader on a LNL AP. I have used it a lot without problems. Maybe in small cals Unique sometimes clogs the tube? What was most puzzling was no pop with the primer, and not moving the bullet forward at all. Also, if the powder bridged for a cycle, it seems an over charge would have been next. That didn't seem to happen.

[Dan Cash]

I never load cases while they sit in the loading block.
I have the loading block on the bench EMPTY, The cases are in a bowl next to it.
I pick up a case and charge it and THEN put it in the loading block.
At that point I know that if it is in the loading block it has powder in it or it should.
But I still check for powder and powder level with the little mag light.

+1 on this technique except that I seat a bullet immediately after charging. This is especially important when using fast burning powders as with cast bullets. 17 gr. 2400 is great under a 175 gr. .30-30 bullet; 34 gr 2400 is NOT.

[hoosierlogger]

I do like greywolf does. But after my cases get powder, it get dumped in the scale to measure the powder before going into the block. I need to break down and buy an electronic powder measure with built in scale. But I dont want to spend the money.

[sqlbullet]

I recently acquired a Square Deal B on my bench. It still belongs to a friend, but he doesn't have a space to mount and use it. This was my first exposure to a progressive press.

What bothered me is the inability to see a small charge in a long case like a 357 or 44 mag. Was loading Unique, and the angles were such that I could not see in the case. Planning on getting a small dental mirror and mounting it so I can see down any case clear to the bottom.

[DLCTEX]

I recently acquired a Square Deal B on my bench. It still belongs to a friend, but he doesn't have a space to mount and use it. This was my first exposure to a progressive press.

What bothered me is the inability to see a small charge in a long case like a 357 or 44 mag. Was loading Unique, and the angles were such that I could not see in the case. Planning on getting a small dental mirror and mounting it so I can see down any case clear to the bottom.

That is a feature of the Lee Classic Cast Turret I really appreciate, The long stroke gives room to see into the cases and the little flex neck LED light fastened to the press with a rubber band (a tip picked up on this site) really works well.

[Rocky Raab]

I remain absolutely convinced that loading blocks CAUSE more zero or double charges than they prevent. Especially when people charge cases in the block; it is far too easy to lose track and either skip or repeat a charge. The closely-packed cases also lead to visual illusions.

Progressive presses are the next most sorrowful tool. Who the heck has so little time that safety becomes a secondary issue to volume production?

Charge one. Inspect one. Seat bullet. ... Absolutely and utterly foolproof.

[theperfessor]

Rocky, I'll agree with you about the problems with progressive reloaders, but I will disagree with you about using loading blocks, at least as far as handgun cartridges go.

I use 50 round loading blocks. Charges are thrown by using either a Bullseye powder measure with fixed brass rotors or an RCBS adjustable measure. My measures are clamped onto a shelf where they stick out far enough that I can load all fifty w/o turning the block around. I always follow the same procedure, and when I'm done I look at every case in the block to see that all are charged correctly. I have a clamp on light that helps, no shadows here. It's no problem finding missed charges, but I also find it easier to catch double charges this way, as I have the height of the powder in all the other cases to compare to.

I have had my wife pick a case at random from a loaded block and add another charge to it while I'm out of the room. I have never failed to quickly catch the bad load, and I haven't had a dud round or overcharge since I started doing this.

This seems to work for me, it may not for others. What's important is that a sound procedure be adopted and then followed EVERY TIME.

[mdi]

I never load cases while they sit in the loading block.
I have the loading block on the bench EMPTY, The cases are in a bowl next to it.
I pick up a case and charge it and THEN put it in the loading block.
At that point I know that if it is in the loading block it has powder in it or it should.
But I still check for powder and powder level with the little mag light.

Me too. I have a Mini-Maglight that I check the cases in the loading block, before I get up from my powder station (my desk). BTW; were you using a progressive press to get that many duds?

[mpmarty]

I use a Dillon 550B and generally tend to use ball type powders. I have never yet had a squib or double. I have a great deal of respect for Mikes' engineering and have never had a problem with one of his powder measures. They throw uniform charges as long as I keep the powder level in the tube at a reasonable level (never less than half full).

[Rocky Raab]

I'm genuinely happy for you, perfessor. But I still say that it's all too easy to get visually confused or lost while looking at 50 case mouths. Looking at one has zero chance of confusion.

[scrapcan]

Another thing to remember is not to leave powder in a measure long term. The powder can settle and bridge. It will pick up moisture and cause bridging, it doesn't take much moisture to change flow characteristics. Dump that powder out of the measure when expecting to not use the measure for a while.

[Dave B]

Has anybody ever had a totally silent primer only load that didn't move the bullet at all?

[Rocky Raab]

I've never had a primer-only load in 50+ years of reloading. See my procedures above.

Primers can generate up to 10,000 psi depending on case volume and primer type. It's possible that neck tension and/or crimp might be able to withstand that, but it's somewhat unlikely.

[sqlbullet]

Like theperfessor, I charge in a loading block, 50 at a time. I then visually inspect each case. I then take a sample of 10% using correct procedure for statistical validity and measure them. If on visual inspection or during my sample measure, I have any concerns, then I stop and manually weigh each charge.

[462]

I use a 50-hole loading block and have never had an un-charged or over-charged case. However, we are humans and prone to not being perfect.

Each of us have our casting and reloading systems. What works for me may not work for you. It's pointless, though, to denigrate another person's system.

[Rocky Raab]

Unless you're denigrating mine, there hasn't been any such thing happen.

[ghh3rd]

I splurged and bought a RCBS Chargemaster. I used to load a 50 block, and check every fifth powder drop on a beam scale. Now this thing slings powder into the pan until it's almost done and then trickles to the exact chage.

I pour the powder into the case and once I put the pan back on the scale it starts dropping another charge -- meanwhile I'm finishing seating a boolit as it is finishing dropping powder. Goes quick and keeps me moving from scale to press, and no more block.

[mpmarty]

I've seen and heard of primers that don't go "bang" but just "sizzle" and create soot.
I suspect that those primers were contaminated with oil or something.

[wistlepig1]

A flashlight on the bench!

[Bkid]

I got a led light from walmart that I angle to the case. I started loading looking to see powder before setting a bullet on top. Just a good habit to get into I guess.

[Al_sway]

It is possible for the primer to go off and not move the bullet. You have seen this result.
As for the powder, I don't think it is a bridging problem. I have used Unique extensively with powder measures and I have never had a bridging problem.
I am not familiar with the LNL powder measure system, but it reads like you are not getting powder into the case at all times. I don't know if there is a spring return on the powder bar (measure) or a positive return. The other possibility is that you are not completely cycling the handle and therefore shortstroking the powder measure.

[Echo]

I use a loading block (11x9 - square is boring!) for pistol rounds, charging with a Hornady Pistol Powder Measure. For rifle, I have a CoolWhip bowl that I put the primed cases in - pull one out, charge it from my bench-mounted Duo-Measure, set the bullet/boolit on top, seat it, and put the loaded round in another CoolWhip bowl.

I once loaded 100 .38 Specials with NO POWDER! Carrumba! I started the process late one night, and then came out the next morning, thinking (somehow?) I had already charged the powder. Duh. :( Shouldn't do reloading when half-awake, I guess.

[BPCR Bill]

Marlin 32 mag had about 10 duds out of 50. 100 gr plain base with 5 gr Unique with Win primers. Upon hammer strike, nothing, not even a pop. The other 80% shot normal. I took some apart this evening and there was no powder at all. I have had a couple of squibs without powder before in other guns and they pushed the bullet up the bbl a little and made a little bang. The bases of the bullets did have a little soot on them. They were not crimped very hard either. Any ideas?

I share some of the concerns about loading procedures like the rest of these fellas, so I won't go into that. You didn't say how the primers looked after firing. Did the primer strike appear normal and centered on the primers that failed to ignite? Were they off centered or light strikes? Ten failures out of fifty would lead me to think there is something else wrong here besides a bad primer lot. Like a broken firing pin or spring. Maybe a headspace problem, or primer pockets too deep or out of spec. I would suspect cases should be inspected and discarded as required. I would still look at the weapon and it's function. Broken / worn firing pins and springs can still work, though erratically. How do you seat primers? Hand tool or on the press? If you have a hand tool it's a bit easier to "feel" the primer seating, and some may seat easier than others. If you use the press to install primers, you lose alot of that. I'd agree with MPMARTY on the contaminated primers, that is another factor with alot of merit.

Regards,
Bill

[lwknight]

A silent primer squib happens in larger cap. cases like 44mag and up and can happen in a 357 mag if its a tight crimp. Smaller cases like 9mm will not hold the bullet when assualted by a primer. It usyslly gets stuck in the chamber trying to enter the barrel.

[44man]

Loading one at a time can also cause a problem. A friend was loading that way, picked up an empty and his son came in and asked him something. He seated a boolit, forgetting the powder.
The primer drove the boolit into the bore (.41 mag) and the next shot destroyed the gun.

[Dave B]

You can see the soot on the bullet base Vs the unloaded one. Good primer hit and bullet still in place.http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q159/dbeeson3/DSC01201.jpg

[XWrench3]

If you load enough, you are going to get a bad primer, or two. I have had probably 6 or 8 primers that did not go bang in the past few years. Part of it may be the companies quality control standards may have been loosened a bit to try to keep up with demand. I can not remember in my 53 years a time where we had to wait months for ammo or components.. It has been a liitle tough from time to time, but nothing like the last year and a half.

[1Shirt]

It is easy to make mistakes in loading, and anybody who calls themself an experianced loader has made some if they are honest. I can agree that using a loading block can cause a problem IF you charge all cases before putting a bullet in and not using a flashlight to check. When I use a block, I charge the case, insert the blt, and then put it in the block. On rifle cases with cast and small charges, or on hand gun cases where I am using a small amount of fast burning powder, I weigh finished cases on a little electronic scale. If you are using the same brand of brass, and your cast blts are consistant, variance will tell you if you have double charged, or failed to charge. As to no powder, agree, Pilot Error. I have had an occaisional bum primer from ALL brands of primers. Am not fond of progressive loaders!
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[Nate1778]

Here is what I think, you have a fairly heavy crimp (from what it looks like) due to it being a lever. Primer went off but was not enough to dislodge bullet from crimp. I have had primers go off without making a noise but moved the bullet in a .357, the crimp was not real heavy. The no noise comes from wearing hearing protection. The double charge on the LNL or any other volume dispenser for that matter is almost impossible (unless you don't index and drop another load). As for squibs because of the use of powders like Unique is not uncommon, you can google it and spend a ton of time reading on it. I agree with others you have to watch the powder drops in cartridges, or find a powder that is 100% reliable in its drop. Switch powders to something like AA#5 and see if the problem goes away. I bet it takes care of the problem all together. You could also let off your crimp a bit.

[MK111]

I do most of my reloading on a Dillon 1050 or Dillon 650. I use a strong mount on each press to raise the press. That way I reload standing up and can look into the case before inserting the bullet. Never load a case with no powder. The Dillon 1050 will load 1000 per hour if I have the primer tubes full. Never a squib load.

[armyrat1970]

I have a rather old RCBS loading block that holds 80 cases. When charging, I never put more than 40 in the bottom half of the block. When I charge the case I start from the top left had portion at the middle of the block, and move the charged case to the top left hand corner of the top of the block. Always keeping an empty space between my charged and uncharged cases, When I have all 40 charged, I visually inspect them, one at a time, before seating the boolit. Never seated a boolit in an empty case, or a double charged case this way.
Sometimes it's all routine.

[JSAND]

I am of the slow, methodical train of thought, I have been doing one round at a time; charge and then seat the boolit. No way to load a double charge or fail to load a charge that way. With that said, I really like the way theperfessor explained his process in post #17 and can see how that could work as well, as I become more proficient and gain a little more trust in my abilities something along his technique maybe something I adopt.

[Matt_G]

What bothered me is the inability to see a small charge in a long case like a 357 or 44 mag. Was loading Unique, and the angles were such that I could not see in the case. Planning on getting a small dental mirror and mounting it so I can see down any case clear to the bottom.

Darn good idea. I have the same problem with my RCBS AmmoMaster Progressive. For those not familiar with that press it has five stations.
Station 1 - Size
Station 2 - M-Die and seat primer
Station 3 - Charge powder
Station 4 - Seat
Station 5 - Crimp (I won't seat and crimp at the same time)

I wish it had six stations, that way a guy could put a powder check die in station 4, seat at 5 and crimp at 6. Oh well. Mirror is the next best thing and will work just fine.

[HangFireW8]

I think ,but am not positive, these were loader on a LNL AP. I have used it a lot without problems. Maybe in small cals Unique sometimes clogs the tube? What was most puzzling was no pop with the primer, and not moving the bullet forward at all. Also, if the powder bridged for a cycle, it seems an over charge would have been next. That didn't seem to happen.

I would say from your picture that the soot is from the primer. Having fired off more than a few empty primed brass, I can tell you that primers make a surprising amount of soot, enough to justify a full-blown cleaning of the barrel after setting off just a few.

I use Hornady's predecessor progressive press, the Pro-Jector. I realize the powder activation mechanism has changed, but the powder measure is the same, and the press nearly so. Anyway, I have to visually verify every single charge thrown, because even when the powder measure activation is working perfectly, it occasionally throws a light charge or none.

It may sound funny, but the Hornady press is so solid feeling, and my bench so substantial, I think it is working against me. A little more rock-n-roll like a Lee progressive press would be better for shaking the powder down into the measure cavity.

-HF

[Fixxah]

Lockout die perhaps?

[armyrat1970]

I think ,but am not positive, these were loader on a LNL AP.

That, in it's self, is a problem.

[Fugowii]

Has anybody ever had a totally silent primer only load that didn't move the bullet at all?

Yes. A 240gr .44 Mag w/heavy crimp.

[HangFireW8]

That, in it's self, is a problem.

I am not promoting the Hornady progressives as the greatest, but properly operated, by someone understanding reloading, they will produce as good as ammo as any.

Mine has produced thousands of rounds with zero duds.

The primer feed is a pain to adjust, the powder actuator works out of adjustment every once in a while, but I'll take it over a Loadmaster any day, and I'll take the price over a 650 any day as well. And the service is second to none.

-HF

[armyrat1970]

I am not promoting the Hornady progressives as the greatest, but properly operated, by someone understanding reloading, they will produce as good as ammo as any.

Mine has produced thousands of rounds with zero duds.

The primer feed is a pain to adjust, the powder actuator works out of adjustment every once in a while, but I'll take it over a Loadmaster any day, and I'll take the price over a 650 any day as well. And the service is second to none.

-HF

HF. That was not my point. The point was, he thinks, but was not sure, these were loaded on an LNL AP. That, in itself is a problem.
Only point I was making.
I have nothing against progressives, except I can't really afford one. And don't shoot enough to talk my better half into letting me get one.:violin:

[HangFireW8]

HF. That was not my point. The point was, he thinks, but was not sure, these were loaded on an LNL AP. That, in itself is a problem.

Gotcha. I missed that... and you are right, that is a problem.

As much as I keep good notes on reloading, I never seem to keep enough. However I never lost track of what die was used and what press it was used in.

-HF

[Lloyd Smale]

one thing to watch with the lnl is the lock and load bushing that holds the measue to the press. When im loading alot of ammo on mine im constantly giving the powder measure a turn to tighten it. Ive had it come loose when not paying attention and have loaded 2o or 30 rounds with the measure going up and down rather then the operating linkage. I load alot of ammo and dont look at every charge. Only time i visually inspect case charges is if im loading hunting ammo. If you cant trust your progressive machine fix it or replace it or at least learn its flaws and work with them. Ive loaded everything from bullseye to 7828 with the hornady measures and have never had them bridge and i have 5 hornady measures.

[HangFireW8]

If you cant trust your progressive machine fix it or replace it or at least learn its flaws and work with them.

These are words of wisdom. The same apply to guns.

-HF

[wallenba]

If you are using a progressive loader you might want to invest in a powder cop die. It 'rats' out the empty cases to you before you seat the boolit. I still visually inspect each case in my loading block when batch loading, even when I use the Chargemaster, which keeps count itself.