Odd sizing and leading experiment. Did I learn anything usefull?

[Colorado4wheel]

Alright. Right now I am shooting bullets sized to .356 with my Star Sizer and magma lube. They shoot great and lead the throat just a little bit, zero leading after the throat. A friend said to try some unsized bullets. I picked a batch out that were .3565 or bigger but none bigger then .3575. I had no way of lubing them except my Johnson Past Wax/Alox combo. Results were no leading in the throat but long strips of lead in the barrel about 1/2" in and farther. To me this seems like a lube failure. Since the larger bullets did not lead the throat does that mean I should pick a larger sizing die in the .357" range and then use my Star sizer to go back to the lube setup that works for me? Or does the lack of lead in the throat mean little because of the higher amount of lead in the barrel. For the record the lead in the throat is hard to remove and the lead that was in the barrel during this test came out easily.

[sqlbullet]

You could hand lube a dozen or two. Just rub the magma lube in the grease grooves with your fingers.

[462]

I submit it is a lube failure.

[Colorado4wheel]

Good idea. I hand lubed 17 of them to try tommorow. What a messy way to do things. Worth a try in the end.

[MtGun44]

Yep. You want the boolit to be at bare minimum same as throat size, my experience is that
it works better at +.001 or +.002. JPW and LLA are pretty marginal lubes, a real lube is much
more likely to work, esp with a properly fit (i.e. oversized) boolit.

Bill

[gray wolf]

My vote =Lube

[Edubya]

Alright. Right now I am shooting bullets sized to .356 with my Star Sizer and magma lube. They shoot great and lead the throat just a little bit, zero leading after the throat. A friend said to try some unsized bullets. I picked a batch out that were .3565 or bigger but none bigger then .3575. I had no way of lubing them except my Johnson Past Wax/Alox combo. Results were no leading in the throat but long strips of lead in the barrel about 1/2" in and farther. To me this seems like a lube failure. Since the larger bullets did not lead the throat does that mean I should pick a larger sizing die in the .357" range and then use my Star sizer to go back to the lube setup that works for me? Or does the lack of lead in the throat mean little because of the higher amount of lead in the barrel. For the record the lead in the throat is hard to remove and the lead that was in the barrel during this test came out easily.

Have you actually slugged the barrel?
That .356 is easily made into a .3565 or .357. It's called lapping.
Good luck,
EW

[Colorado4wheel]

Have you actually slugged the barrel?
That .356 is easily made into a .3565 or .357. It's called lapping.
Good luck,
EW

I want to know if making my sizer die bigger is worth the trouble. Most the bullets are already @ .357 before sizing.

[MtGun44]

Just lube a few by hand with a real lube like 50/50 beeswax-Alox or LBT soft blue, or another
well known std lube. Do not size. Good chance you will have better results.

Bill

[DLCTEX]

You can also make the mould cast bigger with lapping.

[Buckshot]

..............Leading in the throat will usually be an undersized slug, and possibly in conjunction an alloy problem. Early on the slug has to overcome enertia and spin. A boolit too small can strip in the lands besides gas cutting. Recovering and inspecting a few boolits will tell a lot. Leading more toward the muzzle usually indicates lube failure. Slug the barrel and throat and size to or 'just' under the throat, then load a dummy round and make sure the round will easily chamber. Use a known lube and see what happens.

...............Buckshot

[303Guy]

Colorado4wheel, I'd be real interested in what you find out. You've done the first step with the hand lubing - I'd really like to hear the result! Good luck!:drinks:

[Bret4207]

Yep. You want the boolit to be at bare minimum same as throat size, my experience is that
it works better at +.001 or +.002. JPW and LLA are pretty marginal lubes, a real lube is much
more likely to work, esp with a properly fit (i.e. oversized) boolit.

Bill

Ditto. Fit is King. Lubes can help in a lot of ways, or fail too.

One suggestion- When you are experimenting, try changing just one thing at a time: size, lube, seating depth, crimp, etc. When you change 2 or more things you have a much harder time figuring out what caused what.

[Colorado4wheel]

I shot 17 that I lubed by hand and did not size. Started to get a little leading in the same spot. Not as much as if I shot 300rds but it started in the same spot. Lubing them by hand was a mess. I just smeared in the warm lube and wiped off the excess. Not fun. Maybe I will slug the throat. I don't think it's the bore as I get zero leading in the bore. I may add some more soldier to my alloy to see if that helps as well. Either way it shoot fine even after 300rds, so at this point I'm just fiddling with a "tiny white whale". Not a big deal.

[Bret4207]

COuld be e bunch of things- barrel constriction, seating die "squishing" the boolit, rough area...need a little more info.

[Colorado4wheel]

KKM barrel. Dillon Powder measure with a good flare. Hornady seating die with a custom seating stem to prevent bullet deformation. 17 BHN or so bullets. Tried softer. They leaded more. Sized to .356 using a .357 sizing die (don't know why that is). Solo 1000 powder, 3.1 grs, 147gr lymam mold @ 875 fps. Single digit Standard Deviation on the chrono.

I think Buckshot is right. Probably sizing to the throat is needed.

[Bkid]

Sizing will eliminate one aspect of the process. I Re sized mine and it mad a difference,I was working with 45 ACP though. I aloxed then re-sized then alloxed again. It made a lot of difference. My problem with feeding was Oal.SWC are interesting little bugars.

[Colorado4wheel]

The question I battle with is

Should I make my existing sizing die larger?

Once you do that you can't go back. I have access to a lathe. This experiment was meant to answer that question. In the end I don't think it really did.

[303Guy]

Colorado, did I miss it? Is that patch of leading uniform around the bore?

[Colorado4wheel]

Colorado, did I miss it? Is that patch of leading uniform around the bore?


Only after the throat. After that clean. Never grows, just always the same small ring about 70% around give or take.

I slugged the barrel and throat.

Barrle is fine. IIRC the bore was .354" The part just after the chamber, the smooth part with no rings is .358" My bullets are .356" So I clearly could up my bullet size to .357" or even a little larger.

[44man]

KKM barrel. Dillon Powder measure with a good flare. Hornady seating die with a custom seating stem to prevent bullet deformation. 17 BHN or so bullets. Tried softer. They leaded more. Sized to .356 using a .357 sizing die (don't know why that is). Solo 1000 powder, 3.1 grs, 147gr lymam mold @ 875 fps. Single digit Standard Deviation on the chrono.

I think Buckshot is right. Probably sizing to the throat is needed.
Lap the size die to .357", checked with a sized boolit. Try water dropping the boolits and letting them age a week or so. Use the good lube. I think you would do better with a softer lube too, like Felix.
Some don't like harder boolits but what do you do when you have shallow rifling?

[Colorado4wheel]

They are water dropped. Ussually they are at least a week old when I shoot them.

[44man]

They are water dropped. Ussually they are at least a week old when I shoot them.
That is very soft for water dropped, you should have 22 BHN. Harden up the alloy.

[Colorado4wheel]

Well, I don't think its the lead. But I will try and harden it up. It would seem to me that the .002 size difference between my bullet and the throat is the real issue.

[Bass Ackward]

I just love these.

Lets see what is happening. Quickload uses that load and predicts 873 fps so the 19,000 psi should be pretty close. Max pressure is occurring at .200 which I put right at the throat / leading spot. Right as that base clears the case.


Hmmm. So one thing is for certain, that bullet IS EXPANDED out to throat size at that point and pressing out with a force of about 10 tons.

1. So a better lube would fix it.

2. A slower powder would fix it.

3. A lower powder charge would fix it. (2.7 grains is 15k and 800 fps.)

4. Not cleaning the gun after it builds up would fix it. (leads being deposited there and will stop once it fits your slug.

5. A bigger bullet might fix it so that the lead doesn't build, but not if you don't change lube.

6. A harder bullet would fix it. (And contrary to rumor, not all water dropped harden in a week. I have seen it take 30 days. Just like Lays potato chips, it only takes one softy to start the leading process.) :grin:

7. Could be gun at play here too, but that will shoot out eventually. If it was me, I would cut the charge, back the truck up, and blaze my way to glory.

So you have a wide open school of thought for which you can learn. Just travel the path that is most comfortable for you.

[Colorado4wheel]

Interesting overview. I can't cut the charge. I need to make Power Factor. I have 16lbs of this powder that I bought before I decided to start casting and shooting lead. I got a lot of the Magma lube already. Not sure is I can cut it with something and make it better. Your right, once its deposited it stays the same, never grows. I think I will try a harder bullet. Thats the easist route. Then I can either ignore it because they shoot fine or expand the sizing die some and see if that helps. I can expand the die for free. Don't know if there is a downside to doing that. Thanks for the insight.

[leftiye]

Uggh, you need even bigger boolit. How! Lap out your mold. Make boolits that are .358" dia. Then (unless you're shooting hot loads) a softer lead will maybe work a little bit better too. Buy a .358 sizer, you'll need it some day anyway. Seat um boolits against rifling. Do NOT size cases to much (until they size boolits by being too small). Use an expander ball that is .002 smaller than the boolit (no smaller).

[casterofboolits]

Rather than lap out the .356 Star sizing die, I would purchase a new sizing die. Magma Eng. sells Star size dies.

[Bret4207]

Only after the throat. After that clean. Never grows, just always the same small ring about 70% around give or take.

I slugged the barrel and throat.

Barrle is fine. IIRC the bore was .354" The part just after the chamber, the smooth part with no rings is .358" My bullets are .356" So I clearly could up my bullet size to .357" or even a little larger.

Yup and pull some seated boolits to be sure your seater die isn;t reducing the diameter in the process. No sense buying a .358 sizing die and having the seater squish it down to .355!

[Bob J]

Only after the throat. After that clean. Never grows, just always the same small ring about 70% around give or take.

I slugged the barrel and throat.

Barrle is fine. IIRC the bore was .354" The part just after the chamber, the smooth part with no rings is .358" My bullets are .356" So I clearly could up my bullet size to .357" or even a little larger.

Might be a barrel constriction.... When you slugged the barrel did you push the slug all the way through and did it get harder to push when you got to where it is leading? If so, you might want to consider firelapping....

If you go this route I highly recommend the beartooth bullets technical guide.... Well worth the money and lots of great detail on firelapping....

[Colorado4wheel]

Barrel is the same basic feel all the way through. Thats not the issue. It doesn't lead in the rifling area. To slug the throat you can't push the slug through. You just get it into the throat, stop and back it out. It leaves a ring on the slug where the chamber ends. At least thats how I did it. So the .358 was right after that chamber step.

[44man]

I have to agree with every single response, larger boolit first, no sizing when seating (soft boolit, too much neck tension.)
Making the boolit harder might help. Softer lube, you should be able to take cold lube and stuff it in the grooves with your fingers without getting a blister. All lubes are not equal and each works better for each application.
I question the .354" bore though, seems small. Is that groove to groove? Did you slug with pure lead? Did you upset the slug in the bore or just pound it in, cutting off a ring of lead?
Soft lead can be sized by the crimp too as it is forced through it. Boolits need to be hard enough to open the crimp fully. If you see any indication of crimp on fired cases, your boolits are too soft. Brass should be straight open.
No, brass does not "POP" open when the powder goes off and the crimp does not magically "POP" open, it will scrape a soft boolit.
Pressure on the brass after the boolit leaves might straighten the brass so you don't see this problem but it can still be there before the boolit leaves.
Lead creates a thousand problems and no one can convince me that soft lead can be shot accurately from any case that needs a crimp and the more crimp needed for heavy recoil, the worse it gets. I am not a "bump up" fan where a boolit is reduced from tension, scraped by a crimp and then expands again in the bore.
Watch dies too, some will size the seated portion and some can even size the nose in front of the brass when crimping. There are die sets I will NOT buy. In general, most dies are made for jacketed bullets.
There are times you need to sit at the loading bench and study every single thing that is happening. I love the guys pounding out 1000 rounds an hour on a progressive. :bigsmyl2:
Remember die, mold and press makers have NO IDEA what you need to load. They have to satisfy everyone, I have not found magic tools yet.
You have to learn to use tools to correct things. You can not be like the guy that calls a plumber when a sink clogs up or to call a TV repair man when the plug to the TV was knock out of the outlet.
And you can't spend tons of money hoping someone else can solve your problems.