View Full Version : General Decline in Competence
05-06-2005, 06:51 AM
affecting many occupations; escape in an RV?
Coopers first rule of gunfighting..
Have a Gun!
05-08-2005, 07:45 AM
I hate to say it.........I would have shot here too!
05-08-2005, 01:36 PM
I know no one else will dare agree with me here, but I don't know for sure the shooting was necessary. I guarantee the one or more officers who shot her will think about that with regret for the rest of their life if they are psychologically normal. Personally, I don't know her, she's no kin of mine, she is a criminal, and there is no shortage of people in this world, so I won't lose any sleep over it, but I'll say it could have been handled a better way. I take it the standoff between her and the police lasted several minutes before they shot her. Inasmuch as she didn't come out shooting (I know she didn't have a real gun), how likely was it that she would eventually fire? Did the police have a schedule to fulfill? What if they simply take cover and wait her out? How possible is it she would throw down the gun and take another short vacation in Club Fed? As long as she wasn't shooting, I think it was worth waiting to see if she would surrender. There was no need to hurry it to conclusion. Everybody lost.
05-08-2005, 02:04 PM
Dang Art, you're even wrong when you're right. By that I mean I AGREE WITH YOU. Yup, I do. you're 100 percent correct. She didn't come out shooting, why did they shoot her?
05-08-2005, 05:00 PM
05-08-2005, 05:09 PM
When someone points a gun at you, and you have reason to believe the person just robbed a bank, I would without hesitation shoot. Waving it around is one thing. But if she drew a bead on someone, instant ventilation was the proper response. I don't think much of the idea of letting the bad guy shoot first. That's what gets our soldiers killed. Toy gun? Don't take one to a gun fight, and start the ball rolling.
05-08-2005, 10:12 PM
Yes this could have been handled differently. The cop could have merely walked up to her while she had the gun pointed at him. Then he might with the closer look see that it was made by Matel and was probably just a toy. If it were a real gun and she did fire,he merely had to duck. He could have let her fire off all the rounds she had and keep ducking and then when she ran out of bullets,arrest her. Now this cop knowing she had just robbed a bank should have known she had just committed a felony and shooting him would have been a second felony and she wouldn't want the extra time tacked on. He should have realized he was not dealing with a whacko. He was dealing with your everyday Cowboy Bob--a woman known by this name for wearing fake beards. You might suspect her of being a whacko if she grew a real beard,but she didnt do that. Her prior felony record should not make him suspect she could be dangerous. She had served time in the pen and would be completely rehabilitated and maybe just do something petty like a friendly bank robbery,but not shoot a cop. The woman was just joking obviously,she was merely pointing a toy gun at the cops,one of the funniest jokes around and some dude with no sense of humor up and shoots her.
05-09-2005, 04:14 AM
I won't second guess anyone who was there. I'm sure the regrets are running rampant about now. However, it's been my experience that the press seldom , if ever, tells the whole story much less an accurate one. I wouldn't judge until you spoke to the guys who were actually there. This is a bit different than shooting an unarmed woman holding a baby, Ruby Ridge. That was clearly a bad shoot.
05-09-2005, 07:36 AM
The woman was just joking obviously,she was merely pointing a toy gun at the cops,one of the funniest jokes around and some dude with no sense of humor up and shoots her.[/QUOTE]
Yeah,I can just envision that one!
"HAR HAR HAR, that was funny as hell, BAM-BAM.....how's that for an encore, bitch?"
05-09-2005, 10:05 AM
affecting many occupations; escape in an RV?
This is pretty sad.
But I am pretty calused these days. I respect the situation the cops were in when they had to make "a decision".
When you have to walk into a situation where you are not experienced, people tell you to fall back on your training. When you have "time" to think, "inexperienced thought" is expected to overcome FEAR with the "correct" answer .... every .... single .... time. Real world .... doesn't always happen.
We all want police that are experienced .... instead of just trained. And now we got four if they don't throw them in jail. People make mistakes. And if it was, they live with them too. If it wasn't a mistake, they will be made to think it was anyway because of second guessers. Lives ruined.
In the mean time, the world is minus one more equal opportunity criminal and I personally thank them for that.
As a trainer I will just say what I tell the recruits...
When you feel that a weapon is a danger to you or the public you WILL use deadly force.
If she came out with the weapon pointed at the ground we would talk to her until the weapon was brought to bear and then, all done talkin'. If she pointed the weapon at a passer by all done talkin'. You don't read minds you don't wait for the first shot, not if you want to go home to mama and the kids. Yes it was probably suicide by cop, all those guys need to think about is that they did what the were trained to do and what they had to do. When someone has a gun pointed at them and they refuse to do what they are told THEY are responsible for what happens next.
05-09-2005, 01:23 PM
Tpr Bret--- Surely if the facts were not as presented a better course of action might have been better. Certainly the newspapers often get the facts wrong. If it turns out she actually came out naked with both hands in the air and had a sack of doughnuts in each hand for the cops,but they shot her I would change my opinion. But what we have at this point,I have to agree with Bass Akwards that the world is minus one more equal opportunity criminal and I thank them for that.
05-09-2005, 06:31 PM
She was in control of her destiny, especially since they didn't fire immediately. She choose not to surrender, which she was undoubtedly asked to do during the mexican standoff. She made all the choices that led to her demise.
She got what she deserved and asked for, and frankly I think monday morning quarterbacking cops for this is unwarranted.
07-06-2005, 06:21 AM
07-06-2005, 05:59 PM
Reading the posts I think Trooper Dan is correct. Lets hear from all involed before we make a decision. We weren't there and we don't know all that went on. The news media is definately biased so we should do the grain of salt thing. If someone broke into your house in the middle of the night would you take the time to discern if the gun they were holding was real or fake? I don't think I would. How do you train an officer of the law to distinguish between a real and a toy gun in a hearts beat situation? I've been in combat and you have to have been there to make the call. Too many armchair experts out there.
07-06-2005, 06:22 PM
I nearly shot some dumb assed teenager in Iraq who had an air rifle on Jan 30, 2004. If it wasn't for the fact that it was a barrel cocker and he broke it while I was waiting for a clear shot, he'd have been killed. If I hadn't been in a Bn debriefing of a similar incident involving another patrol a few weeks prior, I'd probably have shot the kid anyways, pellet gun or not. Those spring pistol pellet guns can kill/main easily enough. He was 410yds away and I told myself if he points it this way he's getting shot regardless.
I had far more information than these police officers did and I didn't feel threatened on top of it. These guys did a good shooting, this women was simply looking to die. It's unfortunate she didn't have the courage to go do it herself without creating this giant mess for all survivors involved. Guess people these days are just more selfish. S/F....Ken M
07-06-2005, 09:01 PM
Is this a gender based issue or a 'too quick on the trigger' question?
If Peggy Jo were a swarthy male making armed "come and get me copper" gesticulations I doubt there'd much of a fuss here.Sheeut! Happens by the minute in New Orleans. I bet Ya'll read about it every day in your local news paper too, don'tcha? Sheeut again.
To entertain any thought Peggy Jo did not realise the consequeces of her actions is absolute nonsense. Angola State Prison is jammed packed full of female armed robbers and murderers. Peggy Jo spent time in a similar place all for naught. Time in the joint does not restore virginity or remove stupid chromosomes from DNA.
Sheesh! What a topic civilised men must argue in such a fine venue.
With all due Respect & Regards toward the Dicisciples Of Father Grand Caster,
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