Group Buy trends?

[lar45]

I posted the below at the end of the Ranch Dog group buy thread, but it's getting so long, I thought this needed it's own space. I'm just concerned that we may be headed for a big train wreck. ???

I did a few group buys back when I had enough time to do so.
We discussed the bullet, posted some drawings with specs, discussed some more and revised the bullet. Posted picture with specs. Then decided on one and sent it in.
When I got the molds here, I pulled a mold at random and cast some, then posted the results. The Fat 30 came in too skinny. I posted this for a decision. Half took them as is, the rest went back to be made bigger.

This forum is supposed to be about the free exchange of ideas and information.
This business about "I've got a secret" with no dimensions on bullet drawings is starting to leave a bad taste in my mouth. Is this someones personal mold making business? Or is this a group of people who share the common interest of casting bullets and...?
There are many people here who can run autocad, and many people who know a great deal of what it takes to make a cast bullet shoot. -Not just one individual person-
People have e-mailed me to ask permission to do another run of the bullets that I drew up. My responce is that the design is the collective property of the cast bullet community and sent autocad files and drawings to anyone who wanted.
Remember, it's a group here.

[Oldfeller]

Lar, ditto my friend.

Oldfeller

[Nrut]

lar 45....I don't have any problem as to how the group buy's are being handled and I have been in on 10 of them in the last 13 mos....my problem is with LEE not building the mold to specs....of the five molds I have received two were out of spec....one was the Willbird .45 cal. pistol mold (which was corrected before it was shipped to me) and the other was the RanchDog 44 mold which I just sent back...In both cases I saw the meas. of the bullet design before I ordered and Lee did not follow the specs.....I just hope that the remaining five group buy molds that I ordered are cut right the first time.....lars 45... I don't know what you are driving at here with your post....If you have a problem with the way the group buys are going why did'nt you take it up with the person you have the problem with a PM or E-mail to that person?

[Oldfeller]

Nrut -- I'm curious, which items were out of tolerance on the ones that were out (like what was the print specified tolerance on the buying drawing and what did they actually come in at?).

I sorta like to keep tabs on the various LEE screw ups, having voiced why they take place and what should happen to minimize them biting us .....

Oldfeller

[PatMarlin]

Is there a problem with posting GB specs on the net for potential copyright infringement by outside theives?

I don't know so I'm asking.

I for one think anyone that is a member here, and considering a group buy boolit, should have access to the spec drawings. After all how are we to know if the boolit is going to work for our particlular needs, and how are we to know what we recieved and paid for is cut accurately by LEE?

Next, I feel the GB molds specs should be available to cast boolit members if they wish to run another GB on that particuler mold. If not then I agree with Glen that what we have here is not a group buy mold situation, but could possibly be a means to fund a design, with R&D provided by cast boolit members maybe????.

[felix]

I personally don't care who steals what because I am in it for the goods produced, and what falls into my hands for use. There is no money to be made with this stuff as far as I can tell. Folks in this hobby line are just too cheap, and this might be because they pay way, way too much for transportation and gladly do so. Driving is supposed to be a privilege according to state rules, but the 2nd ammendment is NOT a privilege. Priorities screwed up? ... felix

[steveb]

I for one think anyone that is a member here, and considering a group buy boolit, should have access to the spec drawings. After all how are we to know if the boolit is going to work for our particlular needs, and how are we to know what we recieved and paid for is cut accurately by LEE?


Ditto Pat, I feel we should get the spec drawings as well. And I posted this on the R.D. thread but hats off to ya Lar45.

[Buckshot]

............I hope the .375 6 cavity deal turns up right. We spec'd the dimensions for the cavity to be cut to and not some alloy for the boolit to drop at.

I don't know the law, but it could be that whoever produces the drawing may have a right to creative protection? Or words to that effect, meaning they made it, it's unique and it's their property? If so then they can say what may or may not be done with it.

If the above is true, then the there would be a desicion to be made of the full drawing wasn't going to be released.

Like a couple others, I personally wouldn't care WHO took up a design I'd created and produced it, or modified it, folded, stapled, or mutilated it. But that's me.

..............Buckshot

[Denver]

Hmmmm, I think I remember reading that the design, etc for a custom mold became the property of Lee once they accepted the order and made the molds. I could be mistaken of course.

[45 2.1]

Interesting thread, of course it would be better if the complaining parties actually would have did something lately, other than complain, toward getting an idea up (other than their own) and on the board for a buy. My hat is off to the other guys, trk and Tom Meyers, who have did this for other guys, not just for theirself. BTW, drawings are intelectual property of the drawer, not owned by the veiwer unless permission as such is given. Something that Oldfeller is aquainted with and could tell you, but hasn't.

[felix]

Drawings are intelectual property of the drawer, I agree, provided the art was not commissioned by another or others. If commissioned, then the art belongs to the person(s) like the owner of the building where the murial is placed. It would be up to the building owners to allow the artist to make exclusive prints, right? You guys who know how Hollywood works might shed some light on this. I know that laws exist that won't allow a photographer to take a picture of a person without some kind of hard evidence that permission was granted to do so. How this can be enforced is beyond me. Where are our board lawyers on this issue? ... felix

[357maximum]

Are group buys doomed?

[357maximum]

I thought about htis POPERTY issue and for what it is worth:


Personally I need four things: A looksee at a purdy drawing(sketch).
Aproximate weight
As cast diameter
Nose to crimp length

Anything other than that I DO NOT NEED TO KNOW. There is alot of time and energy put into designing a "COMPLETED" boolit design, and most of us are unwilling or unable to do it. If a guy decides he do not want to post a blueprint to be possibly stolen from a mold maker or company, fine by me. I like felix am in it for the goods produced.

Glenn, imagine for a minute that that super secret carnuba red recipe somehow fell into the hands of another lube maker, how would that make you feel when you saw YOUR PRODUCT being made and sold by someone else. I have no issues with you personally,(In fact I rather enjoy our chats) but maybe you should think a little harder before you briskly stir the pot of nitro. I know for a fact you will not divulge your recipe, even when you know a guy is only curious, how is any of the designs different?

Like I said I have no issues with you, but damn man if a guy do not want to show the world the bluprint of his labors, let it go..maybe if there were a little less bantering and jousting about designs some other mold maker might just pick up the ball and run it for us awhile.

Just My quarters worth

Michael

[PatMarlin]

I don't think anyone's trying to tag somebody here, and I sure is heck am not. I don't even keep track of who designs what.

Just be a good thing to work out the GB wrinkles and that includes LEE.. :drinks:

[PatMarlin]

I think I may need to clarify what I wrote above, cause it's not that clear...

I didn't mean a member may be using other members to fund a boolit design venture, I meant the possibilty of "ousiders" using the R&D of cast boolits members for their venture, which would be a hangin' offence IMO.. :mrgreen:

[Char-Gar]

Aww..caca..here we go again!

[357maximum]

Aww..caca..here we go again!


Just put the seatbelt on, it might get bumpy and I see mud up ahead...

[Oldfeller]

A blueprint for a group mold buy on this list has always been common domain, freely published and discussed, modified accordingly and group buys were ALWAYS signed up for with a full knowledge of all details. Jump started it out that way with 100% fully published and discussed drawings and I continued that way, full discussion of the fit to throat drawing details and eveything else was fully disclosed. Heck -- I even made you sign on a form that had the full drawng on it that you had actually READ and understood the drawing on the first 6.5 mold.

This "secret drawing" stuff was cranked up by 45 2.1 in the last 12-15 months or so while I was off working for Caterpillar. Since then I have seen the cost of group buy molds escalate considerably beyond the wholesale cost of the molds themselves and the delivered accuracy of the molds to the intention of the buying group decline by quite a bit. I can attest LEE doesn't do as good a job nowadays as they can do and have done. This last one is simply a clean example of an uncontrolled LEE screw up, similar to what they did to Jumptrap way back when before we learned how to protect ourselves from LEE.

Now, as to not having done anything to show folks how it SHOULD be done -- that's nonsense. Go read the sticky which is a reprint of information some of which is years & years old. I also clearly remember just finishing a group buy of 7mm six banger molds where everyone got to discuss what they wanted and opt in or out of the group buy ongoing as the published detailed design changed to best suit the largest spread possible of our group members. LEE did their job mostly (the molds actually came in at least half in the design tolerance spans) everybody got to cherry pick exactly which premeasured mold they wanted to best fit their individual gun's throat (nobody had to take anything they didn't want) AND I was able to send out the extra rebate checks when I shipped the molds because I was able to buy them cheaper than I had even expected.

And hey, I just got the last rebate check back with my monthly bank statement, JA finally cashed his $17.59 rebate check so I can finally switch my banks now.

Now, let's cut to the chase -- in the past 3 months we have had a person who wasn't in any way qualified attempt to crank up a group buy and he pissed a bunch of folks off due to his unethical dealings. We have had this latest LEE mess, which isn't the Honcho's fault per se and LEE is correcting it (some anyway) but it still indicates a potential need for change.

What both of these together does is signal a call for reform in how we do these group buys. Lar45 threw it on the table. There it sits.

Personally, I think there needs to be some sort of requirements agreed upon before people say they are cranking up a group mold buy based on this list's name and reputation.


Oldfeller

[Nrut]

Nrut -- I'm curious, which items were out of tolerance on the ones that were out (like what was the print specified tolerance on the buying drawing and what did they actually come in at?).

I sorta like to keep tabs on the various LEE screw ups, having voiced why they take place and what should happen to minimize them biting us .....

Oldfeller
On the Willbird .454 design the dia. was smaller than specified.....same goes for the RanchDog .432 TL design....as per other fellows that actually casted bolits from their molds...if you read the thread concerning that particluar buy you will find that the fellows who casted with their mold also found the malplat was oversized and and the lenght was longer.....I just went to my photo file and found thay all the molds that I have ordered since I have been on this site have the demensions listed on the drawings.....Personally I'm into these group buys for the molds ...I still can't figure what lar 45's point is ......
Edit: I see you posted when I was typing the above......I'll say it again my problem is with LEE not following the spec's ...not any honcho or boolit designer....

[Oldfeller]

Right, caca

......... Waksupi, I remember you chasing Aladin's 5th reincarnation all over the net from list to list to list to list with a sharpened wooden stake and a big mallet in your hands for making certain disparaging caca statements about this list. I keep expecting his ghost to pop up at any moment as he simply couldn't resist this sort of caca -- no way could he stay away from this.

Look sharp, the bottle genie may be with us again.

Oldfeller



************************************************** *

Personally I need four things: A looksee at a purdy drawing(sketch).
Aproximate weight
As cast diameter
Nose to crimp length

Anything other than that I DO NOT NEED TO KNOW.

I just went to my photo file and found thay all the molds that I have ordered since I have been on this site have the demensions listed on the drawings

************************************************** **

Now, a quick Aladin "caca pop test" for those who think this is caca and that you really don't need to know anything about it ......

Ok all you new guys, if LEE requires a .003" diameterical tolerance to cut a mold -- how did what was on those drawings call out the span of tolerance so that LEE's .003" natural production variation did not cause a functionally undersized as-cast bullet diameter?

(hint: how was the print tolerance on the dimensions called out on the drawing?)

[Ranch Dog]

Now, let's cut to the chase -- in the past 3 months we have had a person who wasn't in any way qualified attempt to crank up a group buy and he pissed a bunch of folks off due to his unethical dealings. We have had this latest LEE mess, which isn't the Honcho's fault per se and LEE is correcting it (some anyway) but it still indicates a potential need for change.

Who are you talking about Oldfeller? With this statement you have implicated every Honcho running a group buy and I don't appreciate it. I've run my buys up front and straight. I think you owe a bunch of fellows an apology!!!

[lar45]

Show me a mold maker that publishes their own mold dimensions!!!

This is what I have a problem with.
In the past there has been much talk on what the lube groove should be and why. What differnt grooves were good at. (and many other bullet desgin properties) How do we know what they are if not posted? Is this like saying don't worry your pretty little head about it, it's a cast boolit thing you wouldn't understand?

Show me a mold maker that publishes their own mold dimensions!!!
When did this turn into 45 2.1's Personal mold making business?
In the past the mold was talked about, and people who had knowlege and experience on the subject put forth their ideas and suggestions. How can anything be looked at and approved if we don't see what it is? In the end it was decided that the Honcho made the final calls on the specs and if people wanted in, they would send their money.

I have no problem with how the group buys are being handled and run. Things seem to be running very smoothly. Almost too smoothly as many of us do not want to miss out on any of them, but the budget is sometimes is little on the thin side. :)

I have no problem with 45 2.1's drawings. They are much neater and more uniform than any I have done.

I have no problem with the people running the deal getting a mold out of it. It does take some time and effort to keep it all together. Plus with it split together from all of us it is a small price to pay and well worth it.
I ran mine at $56 and sometimes I would get a mold and sometimes not. I didn't get insurance or tracking #s on them. Now I think it is needed very much.(the postal service has lost and mangled lots of my lube packages) I think the price being charged now is a very fair price.

I may be partially to blame for what ever happened with mold drawings. I have been contacted by many people asking for permission to make additional runs of my bullets. As stated previously, I consider them the collective property of the cast bullet community(they were developed here) and have sent out Autocad files and pictures. I did not keep track of who asked for what. Some times I drew up bullets similar to (I don't remember) but with something they wanted changed. Again, I don't remember who all I talked with or exactly on what. (even now we are discussing makeing something similar to the 45-270 SAA)(maybe we will tweak it a little and call it the 454-270-RBH (Ruger Blackhawk)?) So I may have made drawings that looked similar to 45 2.1s. If I did so and offended you, I apalogise.
(I was too busy trying to finish my last semester and recover from our rear end accident, Jan 2005) So I didn't spend very much time here.

Next item:
I believe it was the C358-180RF design, that 45 2.1 argued for a longer bullet to make the 180gn weight. He argued long and loud, "crapping" on others engineering knowlege and practices.(not mine) His input on the length was not taken and the mold came out to within 1 grain of 180. I belive mine drops with an average of 180.9 . A 180gn mold was asked for, and it was delivered.
In the past we had some molds done up that were way off the intended weight. They are still great molds and I wouldn't sell my copies for $100 each.
We (the group) have learned along the way, from trial and error, how to make things better and end up with what WE, not I, wanted.
I point this out not to rag on 45 2.1, but to say We, the group, (need, like, want) to know what is being ordered.

Also, if this is a group here the work here should belong to the group.
Someone mentioned that if a painting was commisioned by someone, then the painting is the property of the someone, not the painter. We have working Engineers here. When the Engineer designs something at work, it is the property of the business not the Engineer.
So "Show me a mold maker that publishes their own mold dimensions!!! " is what I have a problem with.
Also it is stated on the Lee submission form that any mold drawings submitted become the property of Lee and they can do what they want with it.

My lube:
My bullet lube was not developed here as a collective effort. I have my own space to market my lube. www.lsstuff.com/lube
When I made some of Bob's Black Powder Lube, I posted the recipie here as 4-2-2, Beeswax-Neatsfool oil-Murphy's oil soap. When I made my own black powder lube, I did it on my own time in my own space. I believe this makes it different.
When I made my Carnauba Red lube, I did it on my own time, away from here, and market it at my own place. www.lsstuff.com/lube


So "Show me a mold maker that publishes their own mold dimensions!!! " is what I have a problem with.
I think that WE the members of the group deserve to know the details of what is being done.

So my reason for starting this topic is not to slam any one person,
It is intended to help the group avoid a train wreck. Yes it has caused some bumps, but I hope in the end that the group will be better off because of it.

[45 2.1]

I believe it was the C358-180RF design, that 45 2.1 argued for a longer bullet to make the 180gn weight. He argued long and loud, "crapping" on others engineering knowlege and practices.(not mine) His input on the length was not taken and the mold came out to within 1 grain of 180. I belive mine drops with an average of 180.9 . A 180gn mold was asked for, and it was delivered.

Wrong mold, it was the 30 Plinker, and your memory needs refreshed on the subject.

I point this out not to rag on 45 2.1, but to say We, the group, (need, like, want) to know what is being ordered.

You and Oldfeller are the only ones carping on this and I don't see you on hardly any of the GB lists.

Also, if this is a group here the work here should belong to the group.
Someone mentioned that if a painting was commisioned by someone, then the painting is the property of the someone, not the painter. We have working Engineers here. When the Engineer designs something at work, it is the property of the business not the Engineer.

Thats why I do it on my own, just like your business. You don't publish your private money making stuff and I don't either. Your point is DEAD!

So "Show me a mold maker that publishes their own mold dimensions!!! " is what I have a problem with.
Also it is stated on the Lee submission form that any mold drawings submitted become the property of Lee and they can do what they want with it.

It's the part you don't see that negates the above. I keep full rights!

My lube:
My bullet lube was not developed here as a collective effort. I have my own space to market my lube. www.lsstuff.com/lube (http://www.lsstuff.com/lube)
When I made some of Bob's Black Powder Lube, I posted the recipie here as 4-2-2, Beeswax-Neatsfool oil-Murphy's oil soap. When I made my own black powder lube, I did it on my own time in my own space. I believe this makes it different.
When I made my Carnauba Red lube, I did it on my own time, away from here, and market it at my own place. www.lsstuff.com/lube (http://www.lsstuff.com/lube)

But there is that convenient link to it, huh! I don't market molds (since i'm not the Honcho and have stated I won't be), I post you "something to look at".


So "Show me a mold maker that publishes their own mold dimensions!!! " is what I have a problem with.
I think that WE the members of the group deserve to know the details of what is being done.

Get off it, you've already drove away one Honcho. How many more are you trying for.

So my reason for starting this topic is not to slam any one person,
It is intended to help the group avoid a train wreck. Yes it has caused some bumps, but I hope in the end that the group will be better off because of it.

Either get in the process and help or be Oldfellers pawn some more.

[StarMetal]

Whoa Whoooaaaaaaaa WHOOOOOAAAAAAA boys. I don't get on the mould buys because for one I don't need that many moulds, for two it would cost alot, and three there ARE too many mould buys going on. I also would not be a honcho, exactly for the **** that's going on now for one reason. I do not want to be responsible for everyone's money and mould either. If I did want to do all this stuff I'd have a business of my own. Also as for selling stuff to the gun market...not worth the effort or my time as one sure as hell isn't going to get rich from it. It may make some of you feel good and like you're making a fortune selling some little product you make, but not me, thus the reason I'm not cutting anyone moulds, gas check makers, or bullet sizer dies.

I do think the mould manufacturers should publish, and gaurantee, there mould dimensions, that is what the size of the cast bullet will be with a certain alloy.

Bob has his right to his drawings, he does this on his own time and on his own programs, and doesn't get paid for it. I do think he gets a certain satisfaction from doing it, as no one else is doing as good as job as he is in my opinion.

All I can say about oldfeller is he's an alright good fellow, I like him, he's my friend, and he's treated me good in the past and has never angered or screwed me over. If anything he's been overly generous to me. Guys that have treated me the same way are KSCO, 45 2.1, Buckshot, Jumptrap, Deputy Al, and BruceB. I may have omitted some, especially the ones I've bought stuff off of on occassion here. Lars45 also made me some very good offers on lube ingredients and no Alamogunr I didn't forget your generousity for sending me free Alox for testing and making lube.

So let's get along, I know this mould thing is a touchy adventure especially with Lee screwing up so many moulds. They sure as hell wouldn't be car manufacturers would they? [smilie=1:

Joe

[scrapcan]

First off I would like to say that I have not, am not, a probably will not be a honcho for a group buy. Some of the reluctance comes from items that are discussed in this post.

I am an outsider and a Newbie here on the forum. I am not an expert, I am not a lawyer, I do have computer aided design and mapping experience (all experience is in mining/water resources almost 10 years) and can draw in more than 4different CAD environments. All of the above means nothing to anyone.

But what does matter is that I am a member of this group (or atleast I like to visit and offer what I can). And this is what hits home to me. The issue brought up by this post has some serious legal ramifications (again I am not a lawyer). So here are a few questions.

1) If the drawings are done and all rights reserved, is there an agreement that allows the honcho and group buy members the rights to the use of the drawing for production and issue related to mold production?

2) If no agreement is in place, How is the honcho protected from the whims of others? In that I mean the person retaining all right to a drawing has a beef with a honcho and files a legal action. Then this group will blow apart (farther than it is headed today). This could be a problem for the Honcho from both the drawing owner and the mould company.

3) Much like the copyright on books or printed material, an individual wishing to use the printed material must get a release from the copyright holder. How would one go about that? Would the owner grant the right?

4) I would hate to see every one of us put a statement in all of our posts that reserves the right to our information or intellectual property. If you want that write a book and I will by your book. You can have your copyright and I can buy the book and use it as I see fit and follow the laws that apply to me as an end user.

It is my thought that it does not matter how this is handled, it just needs to be clearly stated so all involved are afforded the chance to make the best decision for themselves.

Those are my thoughts and are probably worth little. I will step back take the heat and wait to see how the answers shake out.

[45 2.1]

I do have computer aided design and mapping experience (all experience is in mining/water resources almost 10 years) and can draw in more than 4different CAD environments. All of the above means nothing to anyone.
I know what it means.

But what does matter is that I am a member of this group (or atleast I like to visit and offer what I can). And this is what hits home to me. The issue brought up by this post has some serious legal ramifications (again I am not a lawyer). So here are a few questions.

1) If the drawings are done and all rights reserved, is there an agreement that allows the honcho and group buy members the rights to the use of the drawing for production and issue related to mold production?
The production drawing sent to LEE allows LEE to produce that run under the auspices of the Honcho and me. The Honcho is the actual purchaser of the molds, not the group. The Honcho is responsible to the group.

2) If no agreement is in place, How is the honcho protected from the whims of others? In that I mean the person retaining all right to a drawing has a beef with a honcho and files a legal action. Then this group will blow apart (farther than it is headed today). This could be a problem for the Honcho from both the drawing owner and the mould company. The Honcho gets the drawing near the end of the buy. If ever the Honcho is not performing in a manner aceptable to the group, then he wouldn't get the drawing (at least from me) and the group would decide if they wanted a new honcho or to dissolve the buy. That has happened once and only once. It is not something to worry about IMO.

3) Much like the copyright on books or printed material, an individual wishing to use the printed material must get a release from the copyright holder. How would one go about that? Would the owner grant the right? Depending on what use and who was asking would be the basis for this. One forum member already used a drawing without permission on a buy and this process is part of the result from that. He will not ever get a drawing again. We are generally a fair, like minded bunch of guys on this and think pretty much alike. Its when somebody just takes something without asking that we get testy about it.

4) I would hate to see every one of us put a statement in all of our posts that reserves the right to our information or intellectual property. If you want that write a book and I will by your book. You can have your copyright and I can buy the book and use it as I see fit and follow the laws that apply to me as an end user.

Actually this forum had one statement like that, but I cannot find it in the terms of use now. The forum owner will have to state what happened to it and why. It does not inspire confidence with me when a basic protection of your posts is not to be found.

It is my thought that it does not matter how this is handled, it just needs to be clearly stated so all involved are afforded the chance to make the best decision for themselves.

I've stated my policy on this matter, but I keep being badgered to accept someone elses policy. That ain't happin' either.

Those are my thoughts and are probably worth little. I will step back take the heat and wait to see how the answers shake out.

Good questions and you certainly haven't received any heat from me, even though it might look that way.

[lar45]

Thats why I do it on my own, just like your business. You don't publish your private money making stuff and I don't either. Your point is DEAD!

So "Show me a mold maker that publishes their own mold dimensions!!! " is what I have a problem with.
Also it is stated on the Lee submission form that any mold drawings submitted become the property of Lee and they can do what they want with it.

It's the part you don't see that negates the above. I keep full rights!


Okay so I see this is now Bob's bullets private business. I was not aware of that and thought this was the Cast Boolit Forum.

[David R]

I don't know what the story is with the whole damn deal, so I just need to keep my mouth shut... :roll:

I should.....I should too.

:)

I wanted a 31141 so I would have every 30 cal mold in the Lyman 46th and 47th. I started the group buy so I clould have that mold. The masked boolit designer mailed me a drawing and check for one mold. I sent the drawing and money in. In a few weeks I had just what I wanted.....Exactly. 60 othere people got exactly what they wanted. Lee didn't screw up and I think they had a clear spafic drawing. I took drafting in college although I could not have done that drawing my self.

Only one person asked me for a detailed drawing. I said I hadn't drawn the boolit and would rather not give it out. He was fine with that. Those drawings are now long gone.



Oldfeller,

I was on the fence about sending the mold order through you so I asked the collective and it was overwelhming "send it in". I let them make the decision.

You get all my respect for your 7mm soupcan effort. I only have time to cast with a couple molds and that is all. I even paid $50.00 to have them engraved "31141 #1 of 62", packed and shipped. That was my "intrest" in the group buy.



I now have a pile of checks for another boolit I want, 30 cal plain base. Same Masked Boolit designer. His drawing. I will respect that.

David

[357maximum]

Whew, I hope this is almost over.

"We're all in this together"

[scrapcan]

Thank you for the answers and info. I needed the background to make up my own mind and felt the questions would be of benefit to the other members.

Differences of opinion, in a civilized manner, is what drives alot of the good work done here. This thread seems to still be in the civilized camp so continue on.

[PatMarlin]

"Can't we all just get along"?... :mrgreen:

[Oldfeller]

Now, only one slightly interesting point is left, David.

Now when "the masked bullet designer" finally sends you the full detailed secret design do you forward it on to LEE exactly like he sends it to you?

There are only two answers for this one, so I will go ahead and answer the "no" line for you. (I always did the no thing)

"No, I fixed/altered the design based on group discussion, toleranced it and sent the marked up design on to LEE to have the run made."

Bad boy, you are now a scab in 45 2.1's eyes for fixing a private design
(not really, it was offered up to the group as a group buy drawing and 45 2.1 transfered all rights for it to the group when he sent it for posting -- see Buckshot's comments on the 6.5mm Kurtz and the 7mm Soup Can back when these were altered, tolerancing added, etc. etc. before being sent to LEE. Buckshot honchoed one of those himself as I remember. Design items given to the group belong to the group. That particular question has done been handled long ago.)

Let's run the yes line now.

"Yes, it had some dimenson lines and some notes on it and I thought it was all complete so I mailed it on to LEE with the group's four digit check".

Ooops, you just put your neck on the line with no peer review to help you catch any goofs, etc. And if the problem rests with the drawing, LEE isn't going to be particularly helpful, especially if they actually "made it to print".

Now this is the new wrinkle in the blanket -- 45 2.1 is now making you agree up front not to show anyone the drawing or group discuss it in any meaningful fashion (in short, the fine design details). Furthermore, he has in the recent past refused to let honchos give out the full "order me" drawing even in those cases where the group buy went totally south at LEE and the group members needed a copy of the detailed drawing.

Lastly, the masked man takes no responsibility for what he does -- that monkey on the back strictly belongs to the Honcho.

And what if the honcho is a stone unknown newbie with no technical skills who shows no interest beyond collecting a bunch of money then laughing at the rest of you? Who is it that "checks out" the prospective honcho to make sure he has any of the skills required to deal with LEE before we bless him with our four digit money?

(yes, I know -- not here. This happened on another list over some extended magazines, I know it hasn't thank God happened here -- yet)

The point here is that the man behind the mask DOES have some responsability that IS inherent in what he is doing with this secret design stuff.

Now, for the apology portion (as requested)

************************************************

Gee guys, I'm sorry you got talked into promoting "secret designs" and collecting very large sums of other people's money to put at risk on something you can't even talk about freely. I can't imagine a worse place to be, stuck between 'ol Pat at LEE, Dougie the occasional screw up CNC guy and the masked bullet designer's vows of silence. That's a hell of a triple pickle to be stuck in.

Twice now, we have seen honchos stuck there in 'Honcho Hell' decide to ship it to get out from under it (and don't be assuming it is you -- unless it was). And we saw one guy who was maybe an outside chance to take the money and run. How many more times will we get off lucky?

*************************************************

I hope you liked my apology, it was certainly sincere and heart-felt.

.... and now you see clearly one reason why I second Lar's call for group buy reform.


Oldfeller


PS the second reason is I REALLY can't stand to see the bottle genie proved to be right on any topic, much less this one.

[David R]

Now, only one slightly interesting point is left, David.

.

whaddyatellinme? Don't honcho if 452.1 draws the boolit? Would you like to draw the next one? I didn't see anyone else volunteer. I have had no problems.

So far our only REAL problem is LEE not cutting the mold to print.

I have said all that I am going to. I am also going forward with the group buy as I see fit. If I run into problems, everyone can point there finger at me and say "told ya so!"

A few months ago it was hard to find a honcho. I wouldn't have done another group buy, except I want this mold.

David

[Gunload Master]

It does not inspire confidence with me when a basic protection of your posts is not to be found.


Let's make sure to keep this civil everyone. Chill out!

For your answer 45 2.1, at the very bottom of EVERY single page that is displayed on this forum, you will see this:
****
Copyright (c) 2005 GunLoads.com. All posts or typed information are copyright the Original poster.
****
that's pretty much self explanitory.

For a Terms of Service list, look at the top of the page, you will see: Cast Boolit Home. Click that, you will find answers on that page.

As far as the group buys go, it's your responsibility to participate in them by your own choice. If you feel like it wont work out, or the Honcho isnt trustworthy, DONT JOIN THE GROUP BUY. Simple as that. I dont take a single bit of responsibility for bad group buys because it's not my responsibility.

Any questions for me please feel free to ask.


***ADDED***
This copyright issue was disscussed in march 2005, here is the reference:
http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=222&highlight=copyright

[StarMetal]

"Can't we all just get along"?... :mrgreen:


Pat, that line is from the Jack Nicholson movie "Mars Attacks" where he's the President and the leader of the Martians and he meets and he says that, which after the Martian vapourizes him.


Joe

[lar45]

I believe it was the C358-180RF design, that 45 2.1 argued for a longer bullet to make the 180gn weight. He argued long and loud, "crapping" on others engineering knowlege and practices.(not mine) His input on the length was not taken and the mold came out to within 1 grain of 180. I belive mine drops with an average of 180.9 . A 180gn mold was asked for, and it was delivered.

Wrong mold, it was the 30 Plinker, and your memory needs refreshed on the subject.

No that was it exactly. How can the members know what they are ordering if they can't check it for themselves. You say they don't want to know any details, just get a pretty picture.
So we all have to trust you on what is being ordered. I know for certain that what you were suggesting on the 358-180 was going to make the bullet heavier than what was asked for. Which you said you did all the calculations on to ensure it was right.
I went with the length that I came up with for an answer, I then double checked it with mountainmolds online design program and got the same length. You said some nasty things about Dan, which I won't repeat here.
The end result is that the length that I came up with and the length from Dan's program gave us a 180.9 grain bullet, not 207 or 213 grains.

So..... we are all human and prone to make mistakes. If the goods are not out there for people to know what exactly they are getting, then we have to trust you. I think the majority of people here like to look into the fine details of cast bullets. That's why some guys will spend an entire afternoon at the smelting pot to get just 14 BHN for the whole batch and then put it into ingots that are kept for 14 BHN purposes.
Others are very interested in how the bullet will fit the throat and the lead into the rifleings.
You are telling all those guys, to not worry their pretty little head about it. Just Trust me.
I did not want to get into pointing out specific things, but I see no other option at this point.
There are many very intelligent people here who know very much about cast bullets. There are even more who want to learn and know why it does what it does. Hidden bullet details are just a slap in the face of people here who know what's going on.

If you are running your private bullet design consulting service, then that's fine. That's your right.

I thought the group buys and the forum here was for people to discuss cast bullets and exchange ideas.

I intended for this to make the forum a better place.
I may have erred in my efforts.

To those who will get less from the forum after this, I apologise.

[Beau Cassidy]

The wayward movement and destructive nature of this topic is exactly why I rarely go to the 2nd and subsequent pages on threads either here or elsewhere. This is rediculous. Keep this kind of crap off target or behind the woodshed. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. DEAL WITH IT!

[StarMetal]

Beau is right. Why don't we, err well those who want to do group buys, start a thread on the total rules of designing a bullet and how honchoing it from the beginning to end. End it once and for all. Maybe even make the rules a sticky so you all can always refer back to them. This would be alot better then pointing fingers. We're better then that.

Joe

[Jumptrap]

This is the first time I have even bothered to read this thread and while I mused several comments, I think it best left alone...or I'll piss off every one of you.

It was a few years ago when I played mold peddler and never again...will I dirty my hands with it. Lee is a **** outfit and I don't give a tinkers damn what any of you think to the contrary.


If you want to reinvent the wheel..., decide how round you want to make it and how many spokes it should have and see if anybody else has some worthwhile input....such as what side the axle goes through and what direction it should turn.

Sounds to me like a bunch of square ones have been made and they don't roll worth a damn.

[krag35]

Beau is right. Why don't we, err well those who want to do group buys, start a thread on the total rules of designing a bullet and how honchoing it from the beginning to end. End it once and for all. Maybe even make the rules a sticky so you all can always refer back to them. This would be alot better then pointing fingers. We're better then that.

Joe


Joe, that's the best sounding Idea I have seen in this thread. Thanks for thinking of it. Any takers out there????

krag35

[Buckshot]

.............When I did my "Heavy 8" I just drew a dang picture of it on graph paper with the dimensions. If you leave something off, or something is unclear Lee WILL call you. Anyway it turned out fine I think?

http://www.fototime.com/E5D1D95CA0D988C/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/95526EC254D5D0C/standard.jpg

.................Buckshot

[lar45]

Okay, one question here.
Have 45 2.1's drawings produced the desired bullets? what did the weight turn out to be in comparisson to what was asked for? Or any other critical details.

I listed my obvious reasons for doubting.
And then his personal attacks at people not even involved in the discussion.

Did Lee mess up on cutting the bullets, or was the drawing messed up that was sent to Lee?

I feel that the people buying the molds have a right to know.

[porkchop bob]

I should.....I should too.

:)

Oldfeller,

... I even paid $50.00 to have them engraved "31141 #1 of 62", packed and shipped. That was my "intrest" in the group buy.


David

Just a short note. I do like to have my molds marked similar to the '31141' as noted above. It is worth the extra $2 to me. I wish other Honchos would follow this example. I must have 8 Lee 6-C molds and if they ever get returned to the wrong box, I am in trouble.

Bob

[357maximum]

Just a short note. I do like to have my molds marked similar to the '31141' as noted above. It is worth the extra $2 to me. I wish other Honchos would follow this example. I must have 8 Lee 6-C molds and if they ever get returned to the wrong box, I am in trouble.

Bob


You can buy a set of stamps,and do it yourself, they are not that much.. Any good tool vendor, or even gun smith vendor will have them... Much cheaper in the long run, plus you can mark your tools and such with them...

[David R]

No one paid to have the molds engraved, I chose to have it done. The fifty bucks came out of my pocket. That group buy was $56.00. There is no money left over from a group buy.

The mold we are talking about came out to specs within .001 and at weight. Mine are 173 grains, we were shooting for 170.

:) They ALL said "#1 of 62" :)

David

[Bass Ackward]

Most shooters and especially casters hate rules. Creating more won't solve anything. Face facts, if Lee made rifles the way it makes molds, many of you would curse them for it. Yet you come back time and time again for their mold services. You get what they provide. Period. It is the individual that must determine if they got what they paid for. Lee will try and work with you later which is admirable, but there is no desire to make a precise product upfront and you are rolling the dice no matter what your experience level is.

Even if the drawing was flawed, all molds should be the same. Just look at the dimensions guys got for goodness sakes. .427 to .432? Was that a flawed drawing? It was a common tumble lube design with a meplat and a gas check. They blew it!

Hammering honchos, designers, drawers, participants or nonparticipants isn't the answer. And pounding Lee isn't either. Lee has been Lee for many decades. Understanding the product that Lee provides and ask yourself if it meets your needs / criteria. In most cases, for me, they don't and I go somewhere else.

My goals for determining participation in a group buy are simple. I want large amounts of "a" bullet that can be sized. Period. And they blow that. Pleasure over precision. IF you want it the other way around, you bought at the wrong place. You might get lucky, but lottery tickets are cheaper.

[BruceB]

In the past, I've been the beneficiary of a few group buys from Lee, but not for any of the six-cavity versions. They were all pretty much as-ordered.

I'm sorry to see the strife which has become evident in the group-buy process, because this has been an exemplary place for low-flame enjoyment of our hobby. I take no sides in this situation, and only want to express my hope that everything comes back down to the usual cordial relationships.

On another factor in the group-buys from Lee, I must say that it appears from many reports that our members are often not getting what they want or expect from Lee, insofar as critical dimensions and weights are concerned. It leads me to wonder why we still bother.

I well understand that the main reason for going to Lee's six-cavity format is because the sixes are so much higher-quality than their one- and two-cavity moulds. I don't know, because I've never used the six-cavity type. I honestly don't have many complaints about my 20 or more Lee 1- and 2-cavity moulds, but there are better ones, as we all know.

From my point of view, seeing the dissatisfaction with Lee from quite a few people, I wonder why we don't try someone else?

For one thing, I can guaran-damn-tee that VERY FEW of us "need" the actual production capability of a six-cavity mould. On top of that, I see that the sixes actually can create some problems in casting, such as difficulty in maintaining even casting-pot temps, or requiring rather frequent pauses to refill the pot and let it warm up again.

For another thing, members are paying almost $60 per copy for the Lee sixes, right? Guys, just a few weeks ago I got that .404 mould from NEI, and it is EXACTLY as stated and ordered. They claim design-spec +.000" to +.003", and by George, my mould casts 398-grain .404s (nominally a 390-grain design) PRECISELY at the stated diameter of .421". This mould, also in aluminum, cost me $81, DELIVERED IN EIGHT DAYS, including shipping!

I'm wondering if NEI (or another maker) would make up a custom cherry and cut our moulds to order at a "group" price? I know that they DO make special-order designs....if we offered to buy several dozen or more moulds cut with "our" cherry, could we perhaps get a price break? Note that they will cut 1, 2, 3, 4 or more cavities on request, and at some additional cost for the larger-capacity ones. My .404 mould has two cavities, and cost exactly the same as a single.

The difference between a $56 mould which is unsatisfactory, and an $80 mould which is just as specified, seems to me to be a no-brainer. Neither of these prices include handles. I believe we'd have a lot more satisfied customers, anyway. Twenty bucks extra for a satisfactory $80 mould is CHEAPER than a $56 mould that sits on the shelf because it isn't "right".

[StarMetal]

Bass,

What you just posted is exactly how our government is set up, how the people FEEL. Could we have a government if there were NO rules? No. I'm not talking about making a Constitution for group buy, just a few set rules. We need some guidelines or what will happen is what is happening.

BruceB,

I believe the reason the group buy goes to Lee is because they are the cheapest and because they WILL do it. I talked to Dan at Mountain Moulds about it and he's not really for doing it. I think Dan has a bitter taste in his mouth of this forum as he was once a memeber.

Alot of the mould makers are happy where they are at, that is don't want more production.

Joe

[felix]

I bet NEI would do it if requested. Worth a talk with them, anyway. ... felix

[Char-Gar]

I hate to see this thread keep on rolling as it is a reincarnaton of previous threads that have proven destructive and not constructive.

1. I have worked with 45 2.1 on two occasions for group buys (311407 Mod. and Fatter 30". The dimensions have been a colabrative effort and the drawings produced have been just fine.

The one mold I have received was produced to the drawing specs. The only difference , being the Lee bullets cast smaller by .001 on the body and the nose. In no small part this is due to Lee's use of some funky alloy for test casting and the drawing was speced for WW.

2. I have found 45 2.1 easy to work with delivered the drawings in a timely fashion.

3. I have no problems with the detailed drawings being posted, but I can understand why 45 2.1 wants to protect his "intellectual property". To me it is a non-issue. I can see no reason to get spun up one way or another.

4. The only price increase on my two buys have been an extra two buck on the last one, because I lost money shipping the first one.

5. I have had very little off-line dealings with Oldfeller, but what little I have had has been a positive experience. I have no issues with him.

5. This whole issue is mostly a feud between two members of this board. I have no idea about the truth or non-truth of the issues that divide thise two folks and I don't care to be a juror or judge in that concern. I flat just don't care.

Those two folks are Oldfeller/Kelly and 45 2.1/Bobby

6. From time to time that feud breaks out in a public way over some issue about bullet design and group buy practices. There really is no significant issues involved just personal animas and the design to jab at each other. Neither seen willing to walk away from the feud and take the high road.

7. The rest of us on these threads are pawns and just pile on the non-issue and the mud and crap starts to fly until feelings get hurt.

8. I have long decided that Oldfeller/Kelley just can't resist baiting 45 2.1 (Bobby AKA "The Masked Bullet Desiger". He will throw barbs toward Bob on any occasion that presents itself.

9. I have long decided that 45 2.1/Bobby can't resist taking the bait and will rise and respond with equal enthusiasm. This pleases Oldfeller/Kelley

10. I have no personal issues with ANYBODY on this board..but I do wish that folks with personal feuds and issues would desist from drawing this board into their personal problems by digging up old bones and turning non-issues into stuff that divides and upsets folks.

11. Does it matter if folks get all spun up? Well maybe not to many, but it does to me. Why? Because anger and angst are harmful to the soul, personality and health of people and I do care about folks and hate to see this a part of their lives.

12. Well that about does it for me. I called names and pointed fingers because we need light and not heat and everybody needs to know what is the real adgenda behind this and like threads. I suspect this will not increase my popularity on this board, but I guess that is the price to pay. WE can't stop these two guys from having at each other, but we can cease to cheer them on and jump in.

[45 2.1]

I bet NEI would do it if requested. Worth a talk with them, anyway. ... felix

Go to NEI Handtools. They have everything you need to know there.

[PatMarlin]

I was a member of a forum group of great guys, a fishing forum, and one (1) individual was compelled to start crap and be argumentative continually, and instead of the owner bumping this guy (he was an attorney, and help the owners from time to time) they let it go on, and now everyone gradually got pissed and is gone.. :roll:

Totally ruined a long time operating forum. I don't think folks here would let something like that get that far, but I agree with Chargar Charles, it's not good and is "harmful to the soul, personality and health of people". So we should nip it in the bud.. :Fire:

[Bass Ackward]

Bass,

What you just posted is exactly how our government is set up, how the people FEEL. Could we have a government if there were NO rules? No. I'm not talking about making a Constitution for group buy, just a few set rules. We need some guidelines or what will happen is what is happening.



Joe,

God could set the rules here and still get Lee effort.

If I ever ran a group buy mold purchase, I can think of only one. Don't send any molds over seas until you can mold and verify them before sending them out. That would prevent complications to getting them repaired for those poor folks.

[PatMarlin]

let me also say I'm not suggesting bumping anyone here. Just showing an example of what can happen. ........:drinks:

[PatMarlin]

My biggest concern for the LEE custom mold work is mostly for Catshooters Keith series. If they get bungled, and/or reworked and sent back with machine marks in the nose like on a previous buy this time, that will pretty much be the last LEE custom molds I buy.

[RugerFan]

I bet NEI would do it if requested. Worth a talk with them, anyway. ... felix

I have only participated in one GB and probably won't do another, because I'm not a big fan of LEE molds plus all the QA/QC issues the GBs have been experiencing. Now an NEI GB would be another story. In that case I would be very interested.

[Nrut]

Charger...Thanks for the enlightenment!The problem out of spec.molds has been with Lee all along....I really like the 6 banger molds they get right, and for the life of me can't see why they can't be more consistent......

[fatnhappy]

I have only participated in one GB and probably won't do another, because I'm not a big fan of LEE molds plus all the QA/QC issues the GBs have been experiencing. Now an NEI GB would be another story. In that case I would be very interested.


As would I. Correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't the much sought after 358009 easily fit into a set of NEI blocks?

[Char-Gar]

Guys.. I sent an email to NEI asking them

1) The price for 4 hole custom molds in aluminum and in iron.

2) The max length of bullet that can work in their standard blocks

The idea is predicated on a minium order of 25 with most runs going between that and 50.

I will let you know the answer...Maybe it will be within reason and maybe not. I have about a score of NEI aluminum molds and have never had a bad one.

[David R]

Charger,

That was the best contribution to this thread by far.

David

[waksupi]

I would like to suggest, that Charger follow up on his contact, and start a new topic.

I also agree with the suggestion, we let this particular thread, die.

We know the problem, and it isn't on our end.

[45 2.1]

Here is a reply from NEI:
Moulds are at a set price but we will make the cherry at a $50.00 fee, thanks







To: neihandtools@hotmail.com
Subject: Custom molds
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 12:21:44 -0700 (PDT)


Sir;
I represent a group of people who conduct "Group Buys" of at least twenty-five molds each. We are looking for another source to buy our molds from. We would provide a detailed drawing for you to cut a cherry from. Would you provide a dicounted, from your those listed, price to us for a buy of 25 or more molds. I think we would be interested in aluminum four cavity molds, but some of "Honchos" might prefer two cavity aluminum. Your thoughts on cherry price and mold prices for 25 or molds would be appreciated.
Thank You

[StarMetal]

David,

Unknow to the forum members I talked to RCBS by telephone about making moulds for us. They never got back with me. Also I talked To Dan of Mountain Moulds. So Charger isn't the only that is contributing.

Joe

[Char-Gar]

Heard back from Patty Melander.

4 hole aluminum molds - $100.00
Same in iron... $140
Max bullet length in regular blocks 1.380

$50.00 to cut the cherry for 3 or more molds.

Of course we can have longer blocks and longer bullets.

They can produce molds from the cherry in aluminum and iron from one to six cavities.

It would seem to be that one approach is to get together a small order of three to get the cherry ground. After that, each member could order direct from NEI and get any material and any number of cavities. That keep us in the bullet design business, but gets us out of the honco and hastle business. We could continue to come up with bullets that can't be found other places.

I for one would be willing to pay $100.00 for a 4 hole custom design, knowing we would be getting a quality mold with decent specs. A two hole can be had for $80.00.

I would fork over $100.00 for a four hole clone of 311291 that casts .316 on the body and .302 on the nose. So if there are two more guys and somebody to do the drawing I will give it a try. I will even pony up the $50.00 for the cherry.

Or some other idea, if anybody has a better one.

Lee molds are cheap, but we are getting what we are paying for and all the angst we want to boot.

[lar45]

David,

Unknow to the forum members I talked to RCBS by telephone about making moulds for us. They never got back with me. Also I talked To Dan of Mountain Moulds. So Charger isn't the only that is contributing.

Joe

I have previously talked with Dan about group buys. He said the price would be the same as there is no real time saveings to do 1 mold or 50, as his program puts out the G-code for the lathe and doesn't have to sit down and write one for each mold ordered.

[Leftoverdj]

I don't do rules. I don't do CAD, neither, so I have to find someone to work with. He gets to say what he will and won't do, too. I could not tell you whether I am bucks up or down on the buys I have run, but I can tell you it was not enough matter either way.

Y'all do what you wanna. If I want in, I'll send you a check. You want in on one of my buys, send me a check. Nothing simpler.

[357maximum]

"Y'all do what you wanna. If I want in, I'll send you a check. You want in on one of my buys, send me a check. Nothing simpler."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


One of the best suggestions I have seen, works on the K.I.S.S principle, which suits me fine..
Michael

[waksupi]

Guys, it may come as a big surprise to some. But I personally, remember enough from drafting classes, and practical experience, to know one does not need a CAD program to draw up a design. Getting a little too computer literate, are we? Draw something up. You don't need the electric brain. If you do, you may as well also shoot jacketed bullets. They are easier.

[AZ-Stew]

Waksupi,

IMHO, CAD gives you a number of advantages that aren't avaliable to the "drawing board" designer. Been there, done both.

While AutoCAD 2-D drawings offer the advantage over hand drawn designs of being able to quickly adjust features on the bullet and update the drawing, a 3-D CAD tool will give you several additional advantages.

By inputting material density, an instant readout of bullet weight can be obtained and automatically updated through all phases of the design process.

The center of mass can be instantly computed.

Changes in the bullet model instantly update the drawing, eliminating the possibility that the designer might forget to change the associated dimensions.

Photorealistic renderings of the design can be created, allowing persons who aren't "drafting literate" to visually understand the design.

Several possible designs can be created in one 3-D model. By inputting different values for certain variables in the model, several different bullet weights based on the same nose shape and bullet diameter can be "drawn" and printed. Just supply the numbers for the variable dimensions from one design to the other. Though I haven't tried it, I'm sure that the "variable" can be assigned to bullet weight, and through some clever manipulation of the software, one could increment, for instance, a .30 cal bullet from 110 gr to 250 gr, and have the software automatically add bearing surfaces and lube grooves based upon the change in bullet length related to weight increase. Somehow, I was never able to get my pencils, triangles, compases (compi?) to execute that type of automated design.

Unless you've used a good 3-D CAD system, you just can't appreciate its advantages.

Regards,

Stew
Senior Mechanical Designer, Intel Corp.
Intel Corp. assumes no responsibility for nor endorses the contents of this post.

[Bass Ackward]

The center of mass can be instantly computed. Stew



Oooooooooohhhh!

[Oldfeller]

Now Bass,
Now Ric,

Them newbies don't understand what you are saying, they think you are just being mean to each other and to them in particular. I got newbies PMing me now to find out if I'm getting one of their particular run of LEE molds they are getting ready to ship.

(??? why? something up there makes you ask? Measure them and send me a good one)

Be nice -- don't engage in any stressful discussion points and for heaven's sake don't talk about sheep or geometrical bullet dimensional tolerancing for 3-D Cad.

Oldfeller


(Baaaaaaaaa !!!!)

[45 2.1]

Guys, it may come as a big surprise to some. But I personally, remember enough from drafting classes, and practical experience, to know one does not need a CAD program to draw up a design. Getting a little too computer literate, are we? Draw something up. You don't need the electric brain. If you do, you may as well also shoot jacketed bullets. They are easier.

Yep, thats true, but, do you have the math skills to go with it, else you could really screw up your dimensions and specs. Some of it isn't high school math either.

[waksupi]

I never said CAD isn't easier. Just that it isn't necessary. Really, it isn't rocket science.

[scrapcan]

Just wanted to throw out a few pet peeves of mine as they relate to modelling/drawing/and the real world.

Computer Aided Drafting/Drawing is a tool to make design/modeling quicker for someone who does it to a point where it becomes a routine process. It can be quicker and really powerful when the person becomes knowledgeable about the software and about the topic for which they are designing. That takes some time for most people. Drawing the mechanical way is and can be a great way to design it is just more time consuming to make changes, it still requires a knowledge of the subject that you are designing. Either way will work.

If I understand my reading of past threads and results from bullet testing, there has been good work and good delivered products using both manual (hundred plus years by untold numbers of mould manufactures in this hobby) and CAD designs. The collective knowledge on this site makes bullet design possible, and it doesn't matter which way the design gets drawn as long as:

THE DESIGN GETS VALIDATED BY REAL WORLD TESTING. This is very evident in the fact that we have some bullet designs that should fly like a pumpkin, but in all fairness they can be used in an accurate and precision manner.

OK having said that, I would like to qualify why I asked some of the questions that I did earlier.

I have read through the previous threads (at least those that I could find by searching) to try and get a handle on what were the issues. I still had some questions and I asked them. I think it has been made clear to me what is up and I thank all of you for getting me up to speed. And through the answers to my questions I can better make up my mind if I would like to be a willing participant in a group buy.

As stated by so many others, if you don't like the terms don't sign on. but you need to understand the terms before you make that decision.

thanks a bunch to all those who have helped me to see the issues.

[StarMetal]

45 2.1

What part of it isn't exactly high school math? I honestly don't see any hard math on designing a bullet in my personal opinion. Seriously, am I missing something?

Joe

[Char-Gar]

Ahem.. High School Math? I made a "D" in Freshman math. Two "Ds" in geometry and failed algebra twice and bairly passed it on the third try!!!

I got my skull crushed with a baseball bat when I was seven years old and it must have cracked the math chip.

I did go on to earn a Bachelors, Masters and Doctors degrees but no science or anything that requires math.

I am totaly dependent on some of you guys to produce bullets drawing. Now if you have a metaphysical question about the nature of the universe and life therein..I got you covered.

[45 2.1]

45 2.1

What part of it isn't exactly high school math? I honestly don't see any hard math on designing a bullet in my personal opinion. Seriously, am I missing something?

Joe

All dimensions on boolit drawings are given to three decimal places. Doing board drafting by pencil and scale, you can get to two decimal places on geometrically constructed items. You cannot get the third place when specifying the ogive radius, it would have to be calculated as would the crimp groove dimensions and nose draft if used. Lets see just how many if any can do that. Here is a problem I just did for another drawing. the meplat is flat and 0.275" in diameter, the nose and ogive are 0.400" long along the centerline of the boolit, the back of the ogive at the front of the front band is 0.451" in diameter. Now, what is the tangential ogive radius to three decimal places? Remeber, NO Autocad or any other program, just your pencil drawing and calculator only and no cheating. Even young miss Oldfeller and daddy Oldfeller got it wrong. There is only one answer. Everybody says "I can do that to", now prove it. You were all carping about specs, this is an important spec that should not be left up to the mold maker to determine. Easy, ain't it!

[Nrut]

Ahem.. High School Math? I made a "D" in Freshman math. Two "Ds" in geometry and failed algebra twice and bairly passed it on the third try!!!

I got my skull crushed with a baseball bat when I was seven years old and it must have cracked the math chip.

I did go on to earn a Bachelors, Masters and Doctors degrees but no science or anything that requires math.

I am totaly dependent on some of you guys to produce bullets drawing. Now if you have a metaphysical question about the nature of the universe and life therein..I got you covered.
Ok Charger....Which comes first.... thought...or a biochemical reaction that creates thought?.......I put this question to a fellow who studied the brain as it related to alzheimers.....his answer was thought came first, but later I got to thinking how does that explain the behavior/thought process of a schizophrenic?......a biochemical disorder.......But if biochemical reactions create thought then the biochemical process that creates movement would precede thought which is not the case as far as I know.....Question # 2 is where do thoughts come from?.....something to think about....

[Char-Gar]

All metaphysical questions can be answered in the ancient catachism:

Q. Why is a mouse when he spins?

A. The higher the more.

When you understand that, you will be truly enlightened on all issues.

[StarMetal]

Charger,

I beg your pardon, but do you have any Grey Poupon? Oops wrong train of thought. Charger the answer is "Because the higher the fewer", not what you got down, geez no wonder you can't get stuff done right. :kidding:


45 2.1

Okay got what you're saying.

Joe

[Nrut]

All metaphysical questions can be answered in the ancient catachism:

Q. Why is a mouse when he spins?

A. The higher the more.

When you understand that, you will be truly enlightened on all issues.
And you said that you were'nt good at math!.......

[scrapcan]

45 2.1-

I think you can do this with just a manual drawing and a slide rule (my Dietzgen 1778 will do 3 SD). You just have to scale your drawing up and use an engineer's scale not an architectual scale. If you draw to actual scale (1:1) we cannot measure that close. But if you scale up it is possible. Have you ever seen old manual drawings for very high tolerance parts for watches and clocks? They built them long before computers.

I used information from the following website for the formula, Thanks to Tom at TMT enterprises for making this available in an earlier thread.

http://www.uslink.net/~tom1/Tech/Tangent_Ogive.htm

Here is my guess using the formula that above for tangential curve from one perpendicular to another all taken using 3significant digits. My guess is 0.953 inches.

Am I even in the ball park?

[45 2.1]

45 2.1-

I think you can do this with just a manual drawing and a slide rule (my Dietzgen 1778 will do 3 SD). You just have to scale your drawing up and use an engineer's scale not an architectual scale. If you draw to actual scale (1:1) we cannot measure that close. But if you scale up it is possible. Have you ever seen old manual drawings for very high tolerance parts for watches and clocks? They built them long before computers.

I used information from the following website for the formula, Thanks to Tom at TMT enterprises for making this available in an earlier thread.

http://www.uslink.net/~tom1/Tech/Tangent_Ogive.htm

Here is my guess using the formula that above for tangential curve from one perpendicular to another all taken using 3significant digits. My guess is 0.953 inches.

Am I even in the ball park?


You are close , but not correct. There are several ways to do it. A large drawing that will fit on a drafting table will not get it. One the size of a room would. Offset curve formulas, line equations or trigonometry will deliver an answer. While these are taught in high school, there application is beyond the methodology taught. The assumption was that it could be done by drawing. I allowed the use of a calculator also as the long hand calculations are BORING.

[Bass Ackward]

I just did for another drawing. the meplat is flat and 0.275" in diameter, the nose and ogive are 0.400" long along the centerline of the boolit, the back of the ogive at the front of the front band is 0.451" in diameter. Now, what is the tangential ogive radius to three decimal places?

Bob,

You don't specify how wide your front band is, but I know how you like to design to I will guess .887.

Ooops. That was assuming a 90 degree angle from the front of the crimp groove.

[45 2.1]

Bob,

You don't specify how wide your front band is, but I know how you like to design to I will guess .887.

Not even close! The previous guess wasn't too bad.

[Bass Ackward]

Not even close! The previous guess wasn't too bad.


Well it would make a nicer looking bullet. :grin:

[Oldfeller]

Yeah, I remember that -- Katie had to blow up her view quite a bit to see it but that ogive bulged past the theoretical extension of the nose diameter line a whopping .00018" (round it out to two tenths for discussion purposes). But I thanked 45 2.1 for pointing it out, as a screw up is a screw up no matter how small. 45 2.1 was right and the drawing needed to be fixed.

(and how meaningful would a .00018" ogive error to a nominal nose diameter have been when LEE made the first diameter nose band oversized when they cut the molds anyway? Heck, I dunno. But knowing it was there -- it got fixed. And that is what peer review is about, getting all the fuzzy items noticed and fixed before sending the design to LEE to be cut.)

Yes, you can do a bullet without CAD. It is a bad idea though, since without CAD you cannot have any assurance the numbers YOU THINK come together to make a profile or outline really will actually touch each other when laid out in cyberspace.

Peer review is what it is about -- everyone needs it. And this is a good example of when some input was needed, he gave some and it was taken gratefully and fixed. The bullet was better for it.

Ain't nobody perfect .... but us as a group get a lot closer to it than just one of us can.

Oldfeller

[slughammer]

Here is my guess using the formula that above for tangential curve from one perpendicular to another all taken using 3significant digits. My guess is 0.953 inches.

Am I even in the ball park?

I got the same .953091 using Tom's formula.

45 2.1 - Can you explain WHAT an ogival radius is? I can't seem to find a relavent defenition.

[45 2.1]

I got the same .953091 using Tom's formula.

Toms formula is an algorighm (sp) which only approximates the number, quantity or volume. It is not an exact calculation, only close. If you were to calculate the area of something irregular, you would take a rectagular area every little bit and add all them together to get the total, same with a volume, but these would not give the exact number.

45 2.1 - Can you explain WHAT an ogival radius is? I can't seem to find a relavent defenition.

An ogival radius ends with the tangent to the radius on the same line and direction to what it meets, that is there is no deflection at that point. In the case of the number you got, it would surfice to use that number, it would not be tangent, but have a slight deflection.

[slughammer]

Thanks, I understand.

I just did it the old fashioned way, and got the same number. .9530909

I won't give it away, but I used pythagoreus and foil. It could be a different value, I may be breaking some math law when I'm solving the equation (been a few years).

[Catshooter]

Gentlemen,

Maybe it would help to recongnise that there are at least two types of GBs. One that a group of people have designed together, tweeking it until the majority is happy.

Another is where one of us wants a particular design, and isn't really looking for design changes. The current GB of the .30 cal 150 gr and my Keith series are examples of this type.

Someone who draws up a design has the right to keep the details to himself, just like lar45 can keep his Carnuba formula to himself. It should be plain to all by now that 45 2.1 wants to keep his property protected. If he is gonna draw the boolit you want, just know that up front. Maybe we should so state in the first post of the GB thread.

Oldfeller,

I am the 'newbie' you refer to when you say that you are getting PMs from. You do not cut anyone any slack, nor give anyone much in the way of credit, at least not in this thread.

Your civility in your PM reply surprised me as a contrast to how you post. I replied prior to reading your post I refer to above.

My original question to you was did you have any participation in any of my GB. It was my intention to send you your money back if you had sent me any. You said no.

I doubt highly that you will ever be interested in anything I honcho, but if so, keep your money, I won't accept it.


Cat

[StarMetal]

United we stand and divided we fall. We're getting divided on this group buy thing and that's not right. My intent here is to rectify the problem, not point fingers or choose sides, which is being done now.

If you fellows keep this up and it gets more out of control, the moderators will shut it down, not just the thread, but group buys.

So pull together and don't ruin a good thing. It's so easy to forgive and start afresh.

Joe

[Buckshot]

United we stand and divided we fall. We're getting divided on this group buy thing and that's not right. My intent here is to rectify the problem, not point fingers or choose sides, which is being done now.

If you fellows keep this up and it gets more out of control, the moderators will shut it down, not just the thread, but group buys.

So pull together and don't ruin a good thing. It's so easy to forgive and start afresh.

Joe

..............There are many options for submitting a cast Boolit design to Lee, or any other mould maker I suppose. ALL those avenues are still open to anyone wanting to open a mould buy subscription.

..............So far as I know, no moderators are particularly interested in closing
this thread down. The very first reason is is that there is nothing going on to warrant it. It's a lively discussion with varying points of view. There has been no blatant and inflammatory baiting or name calling to this point and the thread has reached 5 pages. If it should de-generate into name calling and profanity then you can bet it will be closed and the offending posts deleted.

.............So long as it remains like adults airing views around a table and the sarcasm doesn't go any further I doubt any nasty ole moderator intervention has to take place. As has been stated before, if participants want to excalate it then they should do that in the privacy of either e-mail or PM and leave the rest of us out of that. I would hope that as adults no one would even care to carry it on privately.

..................Buckshot

[357maximum]

ol sages I need enlightened...


I am mostly confused over what has been posted above. Both my buys have been done using a template from buys previous to me. The first one was a reprisal and all I had to do was see it and want it and hope others did too. . The second one which is still taking orders, the design the discussion decided on did not exist, so I asked Bob if he would design one he graciously said Yes. He never asked for a mold, I simply saw where others had done it for him when They solicited his help, and I thought well now that is a good idea, the guy that goes out of his way to design a neophyte a boolit should get a free mold. The buyers are only paying a couple of bucks each and he kinda gets rewarded for his efforts, and no one complained. If they did not like the idea they simply did not or will not send me their moolah. No one is making them do nothing, it is stated right up front what the 2 bucks is for and no one contacted me protesting. And as far as checking the moulds out before sending them, I did intend and do intend to spot check the molds a dozen or so at random when they get here. I simply do not have the means to check em like the group buy where everyone got cast and measured, I do not think most people expect that service. It was one hell of a thing to do and if I were a recipient of that I would be grateful, but would never expect that I could choose MY mold to the exact dimensions that buy was treated to.

I think the newer honchos (myself included) are wondering what we are doing so wrong, that a thread like this would get started. I looked to the buys as a simple means to get what I, yes I said I want. Aparently others happen to want the same thing I want. I did not contact you flaming like some others did, I try to get at least a bearing on an issue before I decide if I am mad or not. Been reading all this since it started and I am still, simply confused,,, other than Lee not making the molds right what is So Bad about what is happening? Honest questions and I hope you answer them, cause at this point I too feel that a few of you are saying we are not doing something right... I simply wanted molds and others did to, I just happen to be the collector/checker/distributor. I really want to know if I too need to get mad, because I am ignorant/and/or totally missed something. No flaming from me, not till I see what I should or should not be mad at/or about. The only thing I gleam from this is that the way they are done now, just might be too simple, and someones not liking it quick and simple, I simply am confused.. I am honestly asking you to enlighten me...really not mad,just cornfused..as hell..

Michael

[45 2.1]

United we stand and divided we fall. We're getting divided on this group buy thing and that's not right. My intent here is to rectify the problem, not point fingers or choose sides, which is being done now.

If you fellows keep this up and it gets more out of control, the moderators will shut it down, not just the thread, but group buys.

So pull together and don't ruin a good thing. It's so easy to forgive and start afresh.

Joe

Kinda like a lifeboat, Huh?

[scrapcan]

Questions for any and all,

A few more items of discussion not really related to the whole group buy issue, but more on a technical drawing and production line of questions. I am just looking for more learning on these issues since I do't get to work with this stuff in real life.

1) Is the whole thing about exactness in drawings a bit mute. If you have to zoom into a drawing to see a problem of the magnitude of 0.0018 inch and you have been given a tolerance of +- 0.003 inch, have you defeated your purpose in tolerancing? That tolerance is outside of the tolerance of the drawing is it not? Will the CNC programming account for the requested profile when the program is written? I don't know so that is why I ask.

2) Is aluminum harder to keep in tolerance when machining? How much does it matter (other than price) in raw feed material consistency? I don't know so I ask.

3) Maybe we should give more credit and praise to the operator running the machine. Remember that even with CNC the operator still has to make important decisions from time to time, we still have to rely on a human decision. There was a time that machinists and tool makers were highly tought of and really worth something, the advent of CNC has taken some of that away (and importing everything we use has taken even more). I read a recent report on sectors that have shortages in new employees, and machinists and toolmakers are in that list. However the starting salary for entry level (higher than apprentice, but less than skilled) is about what a person can make in a less technical job (25 -30K per year).

4) I was wondering how close some of the cherry cut molds are to spec of drawings? Especially some of the old moulds that were cut with a hand ground cherry. Anyone have any idea? How many moulds will one cherry cut and still be in tolerance?

5) Is the idea of using a cherry to cut a series of moulds instead of each individually come from the aspect of repeatability? Compared to lathe boring each cavity?

I am lucky in the work that I get to do, if we are within one magnitude to what the real world tells us when validating we have done a damn good job. Nice to work on the macro scale I guess.

I look to you experts for me to gain knowledge. Thanks a bunch for entertaining my curiosity.

[StarMetal]

45 2.1

Nah, the lifeboat are for the ones that nothing is going to get through to them. There's still a lifeboat list. :Fire::Fire::-D

Joe

[45 2.1]

I think you will do better specifying what you want. By giving LEE a 0.003" tolerence, you will have to take any crap they put out inside that range and that wouldn't be good for us. i have read posts from others that say that LEEs "guarantee" is -0.000" to +0.003" in their mold design writeup. If that is so, they break it every time. I really don't think they intend to make us happy with their product, just to conduct their damage control to boost the bottom line. Like Willbird said, If they produced things as out of spec in the real world, they would have to eat most everything they make. To have control of what we want, we need to specify cut dimensions as Buckshot and Tom did on the 375 buy. We also need to find the difference between the cold mold I.D. and a week old as cast boolit in several sizes to determine what we need to cut at. You will still have that 0.003" tolerence range with LEE to get around though.

[CSH]

Here's the verbage from Lee's web site:


Mold diameter tolerance

Our bullet mold tolerance is stated diameter, +.003/-.000 inch. We gauge our bullet molds with a "go/nogo" gauge, which tends to result in bullet molds that run on the high side of the tolerance. You could probably use one of our standard molds at as-cast diameter with good results.

If the bullets are oversize or out of round the mold is not fully closing. A build up of lube, splash of lead, or a burr on the mold block faces are holding them apart. Inspect the mold block faces and carefully remove anything that might hold the mold apart. Make sure to lubricate the locating pins with solid alox/beeswax bullet lube, Lee part number 90007. If these steps are followed the bullets will cast dimensionally correct.


I can understand the frustration for many who participate in a GB and end up with a mould that casts undersize, especially considering Lee's tolerance as stated above. Of the two GB moulds I've received so far, one dropped bullets that were pretty much dead on and the others were under spec by 0.0015" - 0.002". I've pretty much adopted the mindset that Lee will cut the GB mould undersize by up to 0.002" and plan accordingly. If the mould is intended for one of my guns that require a minimum diameter of .313" and the spec is drawn so bullets will drop at that diameter, I would probably pass on the buy. I know that spec'ing the cavities 0.002" larger than we want isn't the answer, but until Lee's deliveries consistently match their stated policy that's how I'm approaching the group buys.

[carpetman]

I read all this and became terribly depressed. If I understand things correctly,all my old molds were probably made before CAD whatever that might be---I know it's not Cadillac but thats what I think when I hear Cad. So this means my molds were drawn up with much more precision than mold makers can adhere to,but not drawn to the precision that they could be drawn up to with CAD? Is that it? Do I have it? My gloom went away when I realized how much worse things could be. I am only talking molds---relative low cost. What if I were an art collector and had just paid millions for the Mona Lisa and found out her meplat was not in specs? Had she been done with CAD it might be right but as is she is several decimal points off. Maybe I'm just off on a tangent.

[45 2.1]

I read all this and became terribly depressed. If I understand things correctly,all my old molds were probably made before CAD whatever that might be---I know it's not Cadillac but thats what I think when I hear Cad. So this means my molds were drawn up with much more precision than mold makers can adhere to,but not drawn to the precision that they could be drawn up to with CAD? Is that it? Do I have it? My gloom went away when I realized how much worse things could be. I am only talking molds---relative low cost. What if I were an art collector and had just paid millions for the Mona Lisa and found out her meplat was not in specs? Had she been done with CAD it might be right but as is she is several decimal points off. Maybe I'm just off on a tangent.

No Ray, your just Out of this World and off Tangent usually.:-D

[lar45]

Lets see just how many if any can do that. Here is a problem I just did for another drawing. the meplat is flat and 0.275" in diameter, the nose and ogive are 0.400" long along the centerline of the boolit, the back of the ogive at the front of the front band is 0.451" in diameter. Now, what is the tangential ogive radius to three decimal places? Remeber, NO Autocad or any other program, just your pencil drawing and calculator only and no cheating. Even young miss Oldfeller and daddy Oldfeller got it wrong. Easy, ain't it!
Am I young Miss Oldfeller now?
http://www.lsstuff.com/misc/radius-02.jpg
Answer: .996"

Tangent: parrallel to any point on a curve.
Draw a circle on a piece of paper. Maybe use a roll of masking tape or whatever.
Pick any spot on the circle. Now what is the angle of the line at that point?
Next, take a ruler and put it down on the paper and slide it up to the circle. When the ruler touches the circle, the angle that the ruler is at is "Tangent" to the curve of the circle at that point.

Now move the ruler further into the circle so the ruler cuts the circle at 2 points.
The angle the ruler is at is not tangent to the point where it crosses the circle line. Now it is Secant.

So applied to our bullets. The nose can take different shapes. How much curve do we want? And what angle should that curve be when it touches the first driving band or body? If we want the curve to be going straight down the side of the bullet, then we need a Tangent curve.
If we want the nose to have some angle to it when it meets the bullet body, then a Secant nose, and it can be in varying amounts from a little(more curve) to a lot(almost straight but with only a little curve)

We should be able to all get along here. I wish that it gets back to that point.
My intention was not to stir up trouble and tear the forum apart.

[45 2.1]

Am I young Miss Oldfeller now?
http://www.lsstuff.com/misc/radius-02.jpg
Answer: .996"

Tangent: parrallel to any point on a curve.
Draw a circle on a piece of paper. Maybe use a roll of masking tape or whatever.
Pick any spot on the circle. Now what is the angle of the line at that point?
Next, take a ruler and put it down on the paper and slide it up to the circle. When the ruler touches the circle, the angle that the ruler is at is "Tangent" to the curve of the circle at that point.

Now move the ruler further into the circle so the ruler cuts the circle at 2 points.
The angle the ruler is at is not tangent to the point where it crosses the circle line. Now it is Secant.

So applied to our bullets. The nose can take different shapes. How much curve do we want? And what angle should that curve be when it touches the first driving band or body? If we want the curve to be going straight down the side of the bullet, then we need a Tangent curve.
If we want the nose to have some angle to it when it meets the bullet body, then a Secant nose, and it can be in varying amounts from a little(more curve) to a lot(almost straight but with only a little curve)

We should be able to all get along here. I wish that it gets back to that point.
My intention was not to stir up trouble and tear the forum apart.

The answer to your question: No you are not her, but your answer is pretty far off being correct.

[slughammer]

The answer to your question: No you are not her, but your answer is pretty far off being correct.

I believe my formula is correct and I've broken no laws of mathematics. Let us try another sample.

.30 nose
.50 base
1.00 nose length

R = 5.050

I did this one in my head. No calculator involved. How am I doing?

[45 2.1]

I believe my formula is correct and I've broken no laws of mathematics. Let us try another sample.

.30 nose
.50 base
1.00 nose length

R = 5.050

I did this one in my head. No calculator involved. How am I doing?

Before I cause you to doubt your methods, I will fess up. Your present answer is right as is the 0.953" answer for the given problem for a tangential ogive. Now, in designing a short bearing surface 45-70 boolit, I want all the potential bearing surface I can get and it helps to have it in front of the front band without making the nose radius blunter to do it. I decreased the radius 0.003" and spec'd it at 0.950" so I could get more of the ogive bearing. The right answer isn't necessarily the correct answer when your doing that.

[slughammer]

... I will fess up. Your present answer is right
as is the 0.953" answer for the given problem for a tangential ogive.

:wink:


... in designing a short bearing surface 45-70 boolit, I want all the potential bearing surface I can get and it helps to have it in front of the front band without making the nose radius blunter to do it. I decreased the radius 0.003" and spec'd it at 0.950" so I could get more of the ogive bearing...

.003....you wild man! I'm going to have to tell this to the guys around the water cooler.

[slughammer]

Here is the simplified formula for an ogival radius

X = 1/2 the difference of the diameters i.e. (Base Dia - Nose)/2
Y = nose length

R= (x^2 + y^2) / 2x

from the first problem

X = (.451-.275)/2 = .088
Y = (.400)

R = (.088^2 + .400^2) / 2(.088)
R = .953

[Tom Myers]

45 2.1

You Stated that
***********************************
"Toms formula is an algorighm (sp) which only approximates the number, quantity or volume. It is not an exact calculation, only close."
************************************************** **8
DEFINITION - An algorithm (pronounced AL-go-rith-um) is a procedure or formula for solving a problem.

The algorithms at http://www.uslink.net/~tom1/Tech/Tangent_Ogive.htm are formulas and return dimensions that are geometrically correct for a tangent ogive nose profile.

The radius of the circle that forms the ogive is called the Ogive Radius R and it is related to the length and base radius of the nose cone as expressed by the formula :

R = ( D*D / 4 + L1*L1 ) / D / 4

Where:
L1 is equal to the length of a sharp pointed ogive of the same radius
D is equal to 1/2 if the base diameter of the nose
R is equal to the radius of the ogive curve

The above formula is expanded to:

t = SqRt( R*R - Sqr( x - L1)) + D / 2 - R

Where:

t is equal to 1/2 of the meplate diameter.
x is equal to the length of the axis of the bullet from the meplate to the base of the ogive.

This may be written as

t = SqRt( R*R - Sqr( x )) + D / 2 - R

Then:
T = 2 * (SqRt( Sqr(R) - Sqr( L)) + D / 2 - R)
Where:
T is equal to the meplate diameter
L is equal to the Ogive axis length

This may be re-arranged to the website formula for the meplate diameter:
T = D - 2 * R + SqRt( 4 * ( Sqr( R ) - Sqr( L ) )

and re-arrange for the ogive base diameter:
D = T + 2 * R - SqRt( 4 * ( Sqr( R ) - Sqr( L ) )

and re-arrange for the ogive axis length:
L = SqRt( R * ( D - T ) - Sqr( D - T ) / 4

and re-arrange for the ogive radius:
R = Sqr( L ) / ( D – T ) + ( D – T ) / 4

Again, I would like to make it clear that these formulas/functions/algorithms are NOT approximations but are indeed accurate calculations of a tangent ogive bullet nose profile.

Respectfully submitted,
Tom Myers
Precision Ballistics and Records (http://www.tmtpages.com)

[floodgate]

Hey, what's all this "O" jive???

[45 2.1]

Again, I would like to make it clear that these formulas/functions/algorithms are NOT approximations but are indeed accurate calculations of a tangent ogive bullet nose profile.
Respectfully submitted,
Tom Myers
Precision Ballistics and Records (http://www.tmtpages.com)

Tom-
This is not what i heard from a couple of high school teachers, but it may be that they didn't have a handle on it. Your formula does work out right though on a single radius ogive. I do know that in some areas, even though a formula is given, it is not proveable (the effects seem to work ok) with the current technology. Sorry for the confusion.

I also searched an online dictionary for algorithm which states:
al·go·rithm
n.
A step-by-step problem-solving procedure, especially an established, recursive computational procedure for solving a problem in a finite number of steps.

[StarMetal]

Doug,

O Jive is Afro-American language...you dig bro?

:roll:

Joe

[imashooter2]

Slughammer asked me to post this for him:

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/imashooter2/pictures/slugpics/orad-sm.jpg

[felix]

Looks good to me! ... felix

[waksupi]

Slughammer asked me to post this for him:

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/imashooter2/pictures/slugpics/orad-sm.jpg


Geez, Slughammer, you are twisting panties!

[floodgate]

Joe:

So, is "me-plat" something to do with the "ME generation"?

Doug

[Bass Ackward]

Now, in designing a short bearing surface 45-70 boolit, I want all the potential bearing surface I can get and it helps to have it in front of the front band without making the nose radius blunter to do it. I decreased the radius 0.003" and spec'd it at 0.950" so I could get more of the ogive bearing. The right answer isn't necessarily the correct answer when your doing that.


Bob.

I figured that was what you were doing.

I don't subscribe to that theory. When you are entering a throat that has worn in, you have rifling height that is lower being tapered. And then you would compound the problem by having more unsupported nose weight to try to turn over. I subscribe to a stronger front band and less unsupported nose weight to prevent this stripping especially on a shoter bearing area (lighter) bullet.

[45 2.1]

Bob.

I figured that was what you were doing.

I don't subscribe to that theory. When you are entering a throat that has worn in, you have rifling height that is lower being tapered. And then you would compound the problem by having more unsupported nose weight to try to turn over. I subscribe to a stronger front band and less unsupported nose weight to prevent this stripping especially on a shoter bearing area (lighter) bullet.

What would you do when you can't have a stronger front band, this is for the 45-70 with a lot of guys having rifles with no throats to speak of.

[felix]

Secant ogive, adjusting the radius to make do. Will by necessity end up looking like a truncated cone with rounded sides. ... felix

[Bret4207]

I can't believe this got this far without any major blowups. I'm proud of all of you, I think.

A couple pages back someone (Ranch Dog?) posted that another poster had dissed all the honcho's when he mentioned a GB that went to crap. It wasn't anyone currently Honcho-ing a buy. It was the Grayarea, just to close that thought.

No Joe, the moderators won't shut down the Group Buys or yank any threads. We never have and probably never will if things remain at this level. Some of the worst fights have been between you and me and no one ever pulled your threads. I pulled some of mine. But you are right- we need to understand the ground rules which Willy explained in his post about the copyright appearing at the bottom of each page.

Now, the question remains- Lee or NEI?

[StarMetal]

Doug,

Yes, me plat is what an overweight sister tells her brother.

Joe[smilie=1:

[Firebird]

I'm fairly new here and have only started entering group buys, I haven't yet received any of the moulds. But as far as NEI vs Lee, to me it looks like this
Lee - $25 to $60, lathe cut, 1,2,6 hole in aluminium, need 25 orders for a setup price break, only 1 design per mould, seems most here feel that the quality is lacking.
NEI - $100? to $300+, cherry cut, 1,2,3,4,5,6 hole in aluminium, 1,2,3,4 hole in iron; only need 5 orders for a setup price break, can get different designs in same mould (gas check & no gas check?), very good reputation on the quality.

The price difference is pretty large, looks like a typical mould would cost 2-5 times as much from NEI instead of Lee. It may also be difficult on the Honcho's to price the NEI's as accurately up front if the group ends up smaller than expected since the 75$ setup fee wouldn't be spread over as many people. Still it looks like NEI is a lot more flexible and you can depend on getting what you designed.

[lar45]

OH NOOOOOOOoooooo. I was wrong, but through the cooperative effort here of peer review the mistake was found.
I initially thought of the unit circle, but should have used r in it's place.
I later drew it up on autocad for a visual.
http://www.lsstuff.com/misc/nose-01.jpg
then zoomed in and regened the drawing
http://www.lsstuff.com/misc/nose-zoom-01.jpg
and the points met.
So, another try on the paper.
http://www.lsstuff.com/misc/radius-03.jpg
ended up with the correct answer.

So now the secret ingredient of my Carnauba Red lube.
.vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
.vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
.vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
.vvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
.vvvvvvvvvvvvv
.vvvvvvvvvvv
.vvvvvvvvv
.vvvvvvvv
.vvvvvvv
.vvvvvv
.vvvvv
.vvvv
.vvv
.vvv
.vv
.vv
.v

Buckshot's Ear Wax!
I've been paying him $100 for a 1/2 oz jar.
A little bit goes a long way.
;)

[Bass Ackward]

What would you do when you can't have a stronger front band, this is for the 45-70 with a lot of guys having rifles with no throats to speak of.


Bob,

There are always compromises. When you impose any dimension whether that be weight or meplat or nose length, you have to compromise. I never said it was wrong. You gotta do what you gotta do in that case if you are maintaining that shape to feed. It's simply going to build in limitations that can not be avoided.

Felix nailed the only option. Remove as much nose weight as possible to add to the front band width by going trunicated cone. Actually if feeding wasn't a problem, then a semi wadcutter is probably the best option, but you already know this.

It's tougher designing a defined bullet. I take the easy road. I design the bullet and let it tell me what it is going to weigh.

[RugerFan]

Now, the question remains- Lee or NEI?

Definitely give NEI a go.

[wills]

Charger,

I beg your pardon, but do you have any Grey Poupon? Oops wrong train of thought. Charger the answer is "Because the higher the fewer", not what you got down, geez no wonder you can't get stuff done right. :kidding:


45 2.1

Okay got what you're saying.

Joe

Also see
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=125315

[AnthonyB]

You guys are making my head hurt with all these numbers, but I have decided against any future Lee group buys. My 358-180 FN may be for sale in the near future, and I have at least three more un-used moulds that will follow if I can't get the 35-180 to cast properly. The 35-180 gets one more casting session and then goes to a poster here - I can't remember who and will have to look it up. Tony

[PatMarlin]

The other element to the conundrum is sometimes you wind up getting a REAL GOOD Lee 6 holer group buy mold, ala Fat-30 and 311407, and others.

Does Buckshot accept PayPal on the earwax?... :confused: