Leading?????????

[Fly]

Just how fast could you push a lead boolit with no lube or anything on it?Now
I know there is different alloys of lead & so on.But let's say WW lead that you
quenched in water threw a 30 cal 1in 12 twist.

I just wonder how many of you ever try,ed that?:drinks:

[RobS]

Fly:

I read this post and chuckled a bit as I have had leading in firearms myself and trying something like this made me immediately think of Chore Boy and a feeling of ugggggg (like when the morning alarm clock goes off after a terrible nights sleep).

I've never done this experiment (wouldn't either as I don't have a reason to) and I wouldn't think too many others have tried it, but I will be checking in every once in a while with interest to see if there are people with this ambition.

[462]

Hey, Fly, give it a go and post the results.

[376Steyr]

A long time ago I tried shooting some unlubed cast wadcutters in a .38 Special. I think the load was 2.0 grs of Bullseye. After six shots the barrel was hopelessly leaded, so I stopped the experiment there. So I'd say that 600 fps is too fast. Since going much slower than that would probably risk sticking bullets in the bore, I'm going to say you can't get there from here.

[montana_charlie]

I dunno.
But every set of instructions I have seen for slugging a barrel said to use lube...and that's when pushing them by hand.
Do you want them to go faster than that?

CM

[Fly]

Well I know the guys post above think that some one new like me is stupid for asking a
question as such.I thick out side the box sometimes.

I have heard it was the heat of the powder that caused leading.I have heard it was
the pressure that caused leading.Hummmmmmmmmm.

Let,s give this a little thought.Lead does have some lubricty in it's self.Babbitt had tin &
some lead in it an we used it for bearings for years.

Tetraethyl lead used in gas for years had lead in it & it was found the lead in it was a
lubricant for valve guides & seats.For when the goverment made the oil companies
go to none leaded gas, the auto makers found there valves & guides were wearing
out in less than 50000 miles.

They went to bronze guides & other alloys to combat this problem.Now there are air
rifles shooting over 1200 fps with lead pellets.

You know maybe I'm new to this & some think I,m stupid for asking such a question.
But I did not run a engineering research & development tool & die shop from being
stupid but I did ask alot of question out of the box of things in my research.

But I,m learning so plan on more stuipid question in the future.

Fly

[sagacious]

Let,s give this a little thought.Lead does have some lubricty in it's self.Babbitt had tin & some lead in it an we used it for bearings for years.
Fly,
Please permit me some obervations if you will. If you ran a machine shop, you know that the lubricant must match the demand. The environment and application of babbitt metals is far different than the environment and lubrication demands of a lead bullet. There is little correlation to be made there. Bullet 'lube' can also be thought of as a bullet 'gasket', and the implications of not having a high-pressure gas gasket do provide us with a fairly good analogy.


Tetraethyl lead used in gas...
Organic lead chemistry does not much confront the shooter/reloader/bullet caster, and organic lead compounds are a world away from the basic intermetallic compounds that affect the hobbyist lead caster. Tetra-ethyl lead breaks down upon combustion, and the product PbO is actually very damaging to the engine, so 'lead scavengers' are added to the gasoline specifically to remove the PbO. TEL and PbO are not lubricants, but anti-knock agents.


Now there are air rifles shooting over 1200 fps with lead pellets.
This is true, but it is worth noting that air-rifles do not operate at pressures anywhere near many common firearms, and this is a big difference. It is also probably noteworthy that spring-piston powerplants do not compress gas to temps above 2000*F (to my knowledge), and PCP gun gas becomes cold upon expansion. This affects the internal ballistics.


You know maybe I'm new to this & some think I,m stupid for asking such a question.
But I did not run a engineering research & development tool & die shop from being
stupid but I did ask alot of question out of the box of things in my research.

Fly
Well, I will certainly say that I do not think you're stupid. Some folks may be naturally inclined to associate excessive self-deprecation with conceit, so don't worry about saying that your question is stupid. Questions are OK.

For the record, I have tried exactly the experiment you're asking about-- non-lubed bullets at higher velocities. I will save my observations until you try and report upon that test yourself, as I reckon you'll learn more that way, since learning is what you're after. There is a lot of info on the mechanics of bullet lubes at the lasc site. You may wish to check out this article as you continue your research, and I reckon you'll like it, as Fryxell asks a "stupid question" about bullet lube (quote is his words). http://www.lasc.us/FryxellLubeCastBullets.htm

Hope this helps, best of luck. :drinks:

[Fly]

"sagacious" Your post was pretty much right on.But I must correct you on one thing.

Tetra-ethyl lead was for anti-knock yes indeed.It was used to raise octane of gas.But the lead in
it did lubricant valve stem & guides.Every auto maker in the early 1970 spent $$$ to fix the problem when it was removed.I worked in the industry at that time.The reason it was removed from gas was the lead pollution it put out the tail pipe.It was very toxic.

Being new to the hobby of casting & reading much here of late on reasons for leading bores.
The think the term "lube" is some what misleading from what I have read on this subject.

Some say it is the pressure.Others say it's the heat?The fix is a jacket bullet as we know.
But why, it's still a lead bullet with copper jacket?That's why I starting to think HEAT!

The AirForce air rifle can shoot a .22 cal pellet at well over 1200 fps with out lube.They charge
that baby with compressed air from a scuba tank.That rifle is unreal.

I don't know the psi of say 9 gains of red dot & I'm sure it much more psi for it pushing
a much heaver bullet.But in terms of fps that lead pellet is faster than most hand guns.

Thats whyI keep thinking heat.I have something in mind I plan to test on this subject & would be glad to share my results when I get to it.But for now I casted my first Boolits to night &
I'm quite pleased with the way they have turned out on my first try.I going to make a sizing
die for these to fit my K31.
Thanks for your input Fly

[44mag1]

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum/view_topic.php?id=3368&forum_id=34
these guys say there doing it

[303Guy]

Fly, over here 'Down Under' we have an expression - Good on ya Mate!:drinks: (It might sound a little disrespectful but it is not intended to be that way - it's just the way we speak). I knew you were going to teach us a thing or two!:Fire: As for suggesting we might think you st.... umm... tu .... ummm ... ughh. .. something word, no, not at all! :mrgreen:

Of course there is a reason why cast boolits usually need to be lubed, we just don't quite understand what it is!

Does babbit metal work as a bearing without lube? Bronze doesn't work too well but it is better than steel on steel.

[RobS]

Well I know the guys post above think that some one new like me is stupid for asking a
question as such.I think out side the box sometimes.


Nope.........never even went there and I won't do that to anyone as we all have our own curiosities which compels us to experiment. Like I said, I will be browsing this thread to see what's going on.

[BCall]

Some say it is the pressure.Others say it's the heat?The fix is a jacket bullet as we know.
But why, it's still a lead bullet with copper jacket?That's why I starting to think HEAT!

The AirForce air rifle can shoot a .22 cal pellet at well over 1200 fps with out lube.They charge
that baby with compressed air from a scuba tank.That rifle is unreal.

I don't know the psi of say 9 gains of red dot & I'm sure it much more psi for it pushing
a much heaver bullet.But in terms of fps that lead pellet is faster than most hand guns.

Thats why I keep thinking heat.I have something in mind I plan to test on this subject & would be glad to share my results when I get to it. Thanks for your input Fly

While many modern air rifles can reach such high velocities, they do so at much lower pressure than any standard firearm loading. I'm no engineer, but I don't think you can factor out the pressure when even the lightest wadcutter loads are near 5 times the pressure of any air rifle. Most airguns are maxed at 3000 psi, and usually less(the new Crosman runs efficiently at around 2000), while even 38 wadcutters are around 13,000 cup. I don't know the exact translation to PSI, but I know that iit is more than 13,000. There are air rifles that push much larger bullets, even big enough to take deer, 30-45-50 cals, pushing heavy slugs to 1000+ fps, and doing so with only 3000-3500 psi. Many of these guns do produce some leading when ammo is not lubed, even with no heat and low pressure. I don't think you can factor out the pressure and assume its just heat, when most likely it is a combination of both. Boolit fit is just as important as well. I wish you the best in your trials. Billy

[462]

Fly,
I didn't imply or say anything to question your intelligence. I encourage you to conduct the experiment and let us know what you discover.

[Mk42gunner]

Fly,

Thinking outside the box is how progress is made; however even an ACWW boolit will leave a mark when trying to write on paper.

Regarding air guns: the rifling on my old Crossman 760 that I wore out as a kid had very shallow rifling, my brothers' almost new one has the same very shallow rifling.

Babbit bearings were lubricated, or they were pouring a new one awfully quick.

The closest I have come to firing unlubricated lead down a barrel is with cap & ball revolvers, using lubed wonder wads between powder and ball. Logic would say that powder fouling would negate the lubing properties of a 1/8" thick felt wad????

Robert

[sagacious]

"sagacious" Your post was pretty much right on.But I must correct you on one thing.

Tetra-ethyl lead was for anti-knock yes indeed.It was used to raise octane of gas.But the lead in it did lubricant valve stem & guides.
Fly,
I reckon you may have been given incorrect information. The TEL itself was reponsible for increased valve seat wear, and this was a major problem with it's introduction. TEL and it's combusiton products are not a lubricant, and were not intended to provide lubricating benefits. For example:
"Troubles continued to test Kettering and Midgley's commitment to tetraethyl lead in the 1922 to 1923 period. The compound was extremely hard to make and it broke down quickly in the sunlight. Engine tests showed that particles of lead burned holes in the exhaust system and valve seats. Lead oxide also caked onto spark plugs, stopping the engine after a few thousand miles."
http://www.radford.edu/~wkovarik/papers/kettering.html#troubles
And another:
"This lead can oxidize further to give species such as lead(II) oxide: 2 Pb + O2 → 2 PbO
The Pb and PbO would quickly accumulate and destroy an engine. For this reason, the lead scavengers 1,2-dibromoethane and 1,2-dichloroethane are used in conjunction with TEL ..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraethyl_lead
Most other SAE papers on the subject concur. PbO is a well known as a mild abrasive, although it's use has generally been replaced by less toxic abrasives. If you were told that Pb (lead) or PbO (lead oxide) is a lubricant, that was certainly in error, or it may be that the knowledge-base in that industry had advanced since your time there. I mention this only to point out that one might perhaps not wish to lean too heavily on the 'lubricity' of bullet alloy.


That's why I starting to think HEAT! The AirForce air rifle can shoot a .22 cal pellet at well over 1200 fps with out lube.They charge that baby with compressed air from a scuba tank.
To be precise, most air rifle pellets are given a coating of silicone. That is an adequate lube for the application. And note that as the gasses from the scuba tank expand, it's temp decreases dramatically. That's why one can chill down a six-pack of beer with an old CO2 fire extinguisher-- the gas absorbs heat as it expands. In this manner, PCP powerplant (scuba tank) guns stay cool, because the propellant gas is very cold as a result of it's expansion. Thus, heat does not confront the air rifle pellet in any manner similar to a firearm bullet. If you wish, you can read more here:
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=25276


I have something in mind I plan to test on this subject & would be glad to share my results when I get to it.But for now I casted my first Boolits to night &
I'm quite pleased with the way they have turned out on my first try.I going to make a sizing die for these to fit my K31.
Thanks for your input Fly
Fly, that sounds great! I wish you the best of luck in your experiments. It's always interesting to put these concepts to test-- that's where the rubber meets the road. Keep us posted on how your tests go. Best of luck with your K31, and congrats on your successful first pouring session. Good shooting. :drinks:

[Fly]

303 guy, I had no idea you were from New Zealand.Ever here of one of my biggest heros
from there.Ole Burt Munro who owned claim to the worlds fastest Indian motor cycle.

I had got to meet him at Bonneville in the 1960's.That ole guy inspired me like no other.
He was the funnest man I think I ever met.Later after his death there was a movie made about him.

He jumped all over me when I ask him if he was Australian.Blank,blank %%%%.I then
said to him "close enough", & he started on me again.I told him Burt,Burt I'm just kidding.
What a neat,neat guy.Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Bret4207]

Fly, one of the classic old wives tales is that the heat of the burning powder "melts" the boolit. Think about that for a second. Do you really think there's TIME for the heat to transfer to the lead and melt it within the case? Don't forget in many cases the powder charge or a buffer is between the base and heat. You can still get leading even with a solid buffer like the meat tray discs that we used to use or a felt wad or a large amount of non flammable buffer. It's common to find a paper patch that's pristine. Wouldn't it be more likely the paper would show signs of charring if the heat was such a culprit?

My opinion, and it's only an opinion, is that that the high pressure gases erode the gaps it can get through like water through a mud dam. The lead alloy particles are blown onto the barrel wall and ironed on. Each succeeding shots deposits more and the build up allows abrasion of the passing boolit causing more build up.

IMO the lube acts as a seal and a lube. It compresses and helps fill the voids and defeat, not eliminate, gas blow by and leading. It also works as a more traditional lube, but to what extent it's needed in that role...got me. I do know if I rub an ingot of alloy on even a smooth steel surface I can feel the difference in the surface where the alloy was in contact.

Just some more fuel for your fire.

[izzyjoe]

fly,not to get off topic, but you you said that every automaker spent $$$ back in the early 70's to fix the problem. i've worked in several engine machine/rebuild shops in the past 19yrs. but i don't recall seeing anything different from the early 70's. the only thing that was different was the cylinder heads in about 76-77 had hardend exhaust seats, but no bronze guides or anything different. but that's the big three. you'r neck of the woods may differ though.

[Fly]

Bret you bring up a GREAT point in no TIME for heat transfer.That was my first thought when
I started pursuing this whole topic.

You bring up some other great points.I really think the so called Lube is it's ability to seal
is more important than lubrication.My thinking on this is. I posted on another
form as to, had anyone ever tumble lead in dry moly & shoot with out any lube.

A guy came back & said he indeed did & he still got leading.With lead being soft you know
the moly in bedded it.I I tumble it on my jacket bullets & it in beds it the copper big time.

This topic has indeed been a good trade of thoughts so far.

[Fly]

Joe I will not get into a pissing contest on this.But I will look it up for you guy's
on this & post back.In the later 1960 many farmers also ran there pick ups on propane & had
the same valve guide problems.

Toyota had the same in the day.What GM & some of the others did was to put more nickel
in there casting to help with wear being there guides were in part of the casting not replace
ment guides.

But I will try & find that info for you & post it.I promise I did deal with that in the early1970's & it is a fact.I worked for Sunnen at that time & If you are in auto machine you
most likely have some of our products in your shop.

Fly

[Fly]

Here you go from Fly

Technical Report
Valves for Gaseous and/or Alternative Engines

The constant increase of worldwide interest in the use of COMPRESSED NATURAL GAS (CNG) and/or LIQUIFIED GAS as an alternative to GASOLINE, GAS OIL or FUEL OIL is due to
:
1) A necessity of diversifying the sources of supply, so that more countries use fuels like CNG.
2) The reduction of pollutant emissions through the use of "cleaner" fuels.
3) A reduction in operational costs, through a decrease in the price of fuels.
4) An improvement in the engine's performance, achieving lower levels of consumption and greater power.
5) The extension of the engine's utility and a decrease in the periodicity of its maintenance.

This globalized tendency, led BASSO S.A. to the creation of a Research and Development program meant to offer valves for COMPRESSED NATURAL GAS or LIQUIFIED GAS. In this sense, the "EXTRA GAS" line was launched in 1991 for Argentinian engines, in addition to the valves exported for FORD, GM and DODGE engines- among others, turned into used with gaseous fuels in several countries around the world.

¿What are the characteristics of CNG as fuel, that make it necessary to manufacture special parts such as valves, inserts, etc?.

CHARACTERISTICS

NATURAL GAS is a combination of gaseous hydrocarbons; it is mainly composed of Methane (85 - 90%) but it also contains Propane, Butane, Carbon Dioxide, Nitrogen, etc.
It is obtained both from oilfields and from gas formations and it must be compressed at high pressures (200 kgs/cm2) in order to store significant quantities in reduced spaces.

LIQUIFIED PETROLEUM GAS (L.P.G.) results from the combination of two gaseous hydrocarbons -Propane and Butane. It is obtained either as a subproduct of processes in oil refineries, or by separating NATURAL GAS at very low temperatures. Being at room temperature and at relatively low pressures, it can be preserved in liquid state.

The characteristics that affect or influence the design of the combustion chamber, valves and guides are the following: :

1) It is a "LEAD FREE" fuel, which means it does not contain lead.

Some years ago, a compound called Lead Tetraethylene was added to conventional gasoline "WITH LEAD". In this way, its antidetonating conditions were improved, making its use in more "compressed engines" possible without risk of detonation and with the advantage of producing more power with less consumption.

The lead added to the gasoline was deposited on the seats from the cylinder head, protecting them from wear since it worked as a "SOLID LUBRICANT" that stands in the way between the valve and its seat. In the case of GAS, the non- existence of such protective "layer" might cause wear due to abrasion, as the valve keeps on rotating during the successive openings and closures. If they do not belong to the hardened-type, both the seat and the insert suffer from a progressive loss of material, which is known as seat "RECESSION". In the end, a serious failure is produced in the valve and seat, due to burning, stress breakage, loss of sealing, etc.

In general terms, this failure mechanism is produced in exhaust valves, since they are exposed to a corrosive environment and to extremely high temperatures (up to 870ºC) resulting from the burning of gases.

Furthermore, these valves endure great efforts resulting from combustion pressure and violent closures against their seat, several times per second (at an engine speed of 3000 R.P.M., a valve opens and closes 25 per second).
Likewise, the lead contributed to the lubrication of the valve guides, acting as a solid lubricant placed between the stem and the guide.

2) There is a further important characteristic that has not been properly considered during the first developments of engines "turned" to CNG: It burns more slowly and has greater difficulties to start combustion than the conventional liquid fuels.

At the same time, the engine's exhaust cam was designed to allow the corresponding valve to remain settled for a while, thus evacuating the heat from the previous explosion.

When it is open again, the temperature from the gases burnt in the interior are supposed to have lowered enough to remain below the limits allowed for the material.
Given that gas burns more slowly than gasoline, when the exhaust valve opens in a CNG engine, it is in contact with gases which have not "cooled" enough and, as a consequence, it starts to overheat.
On the other hand, once it enters the combustion chamber -not as little drops of liquid fuel but as gas-, there is no evidence of the heat absorption produced when these drops, which are suspended in the air stream that enters the cylinder, vaporize.

Because of these two factors, many users consider that the combustion of Natural Gas is "HOTTER" than that of gasoline. Although this is a conceptual mistake, the exhaust valve presents, as a consequence, a higher working temperature, even to the point of surpassing the sealing capacity of the valve and its seat due to a failure in the head's or seat's material in the cylinder head. This might be the result of one or several factors:

- Lack of hot hardness.
- Inadequate endurance to corrosion.
- Insufficient endurance to wear.

In order to tackle this problem, an improvement in the valve's material is necessary, or even a high-hardness coating in the seat's face, through the use of special alloys welded using cutting-edge plasma welding. This is the case of the valves covered in "STELLITE" -or similar ones -manufactured by BASSO S.A.

The main advantages these materials present for the valve's seat face are the ability to keep a good hot hardness and their excellent endurance to corrosion and wear. All this is achieved due to the combination of Cobalt, Iron, Nickel and Chrome.

As regards big engines, it is recommended that, in the case of Heavy Duty trucks, the seat angle of the exhaust valve be modified, reducing it from 45º to 30º (or until 15º in the case of compromised valves).
What can be achieved through this? In the following page, the picture shows a diagram of the forces acting on the valve and its seat due to the work of the spring, the inertia produced by the valve’s alternative movement and the resultants from the combustion pressure.

Although not all these forces act simultaneously, it can be said that its resultant F acts according to the valve’s axis and is balanced with the reactions that act in the seat of the cylinder head (equal and opposite to f30 or f45 respectively).
From the parallelogram of forces, it can be observed that for the same resultant F, the components f30 are less than f45, which means that solely with the change of angle the charges acting in the seats diminish. Therefore, the wear in its surface is less significant.

In the case of angles lesser than 15º, which are not advisable, the seat looses its "self-cleaning" capacity. In other words, any carbon particles, combustion residues, etc, are likely to get stuck between the valve and its seat, not sliding outwards as higher "slopes" (seat angle), which implies a risk of seat and / or valve "burning out".
Such solution can only be provided through the use of a fuel as "clean" as gas and it is not advisable for any type of liquid fuel, diesel or gasoline, since they contain impurities, particles and post-combustion residues.

3) The third remarkable characteristic of Gas as a fuel has to do with its elevated antidetonating power, equivalent to a 120 / 130-octane gasoline (with no need of Lead Tetraethylene). This allows us to increase the engine’s compression relationship up to 11:1 or 12:1, thus, obtaining greater power with less consumption.
Nonetheless, in most engines "converted" to Gas the compression relation is not increased, so that its dual use (Gasoline or Gas) is maintained, according to the feasibility of supply. In some cases, these "dual” operations have caused the valves to fail, since the set-up of the ignition was inadequate for gas. It was suitable for conventional gasoline yet too "lagged behind" for Gas. It is precisely due to low combustion speed that it requires greater spark advances than gasoline, between 10 and 12 degrees more initial advance.

4) A further characteristic that brings about wear in valve guides is the gas’ insufficient lubricating capacity. As verified in the tests carried out by BASSO S.A. in high-mileage vehicles operating under the most severe conditions, hard chroming is vital for the stems in that it reduces friction with the guide, increases the stem’s duration and facilitates the retention of lubricant oil between stem and guide.

RECOMMENDATIONS
To conclude this brief "guide of gas as a fuel", we are now providing a series of recommendations that might be useful in the case of engines turned to Gas:

A) To improve heat transference from the valves to the cylinder head, it is advisable to make the exhaust seats wide (from 1/16" to 3/32" that is to say from 1,60 to 2,40 mm.).
B) Do not mechanize the seats from the cylinder head with angle interference between valves and seats; prepare them with the same angles.
C) Keep a concentricity of less than 0,025 mm between guide and seat.
D) Make the seat in the cylinder head deeper, placing the valves in a deep-set position. The edges of the closed valves must not stick out inside the combustion chamber.
E) Use hardened seats (or inserts), composed by considerable quantities of chrome and nickel. Modern engines have sintered seats, suitable for CNG.
Generally, cast-iron heads have induction-tempered seats. This solution is not acceptable in "HEAVY DUTY" service since it will produce their sinking (they will not be able to resist the effort). It will be necessary to "insert".
F) Keep clearances between valves and guides within the original values, except when hollow valves (sodium-filled) are replaced for solid valves, in which case it will be necessary to increase the clearances in order to compensate the solid valve’s greatest expansion.
G) Do not use rotator cups nor block their free rotation if there are not any other valve cups available.
H) Do not rectify secondhand valves, for it reduces their margin. Use only the best valves available, covered in "STELLITE", chromed stems made of the best stainless steels, such as the ones manufactured by BASSO S.A.
I) Use an ignition advance corrector, which automatically moves the spark time forward from 10 to12 degrees when turned to GAS.

Bear in mind that when turning engines to natural GAS you must use the appropriate valves if you want to avoid future trouble both for yourself as a user and for the rectifier, who would be forced to do the same job twice.

We hope this guide turns out to be useful. We would appreciate your spreading its contents for the achievement of a wider knowledge of the products manufactured by BASSO S.A. and to contribute in the provision of a better service.

VALVES FOR GNC
1) CHARACTERISTICS OF CNG AS FUEL
- Lack of lead.
- Very low speed of combustion
- High antidetonating power.
- Corrosion due to sulphurate compounds.
- Low lubricity.

2) PROBLEMS THAT MIGHT APPEAR IN CYLINDER HEADS AND VALVES
- Valve seat recession
- Valve and stem wear.

- Burning of valve seat.
- Seat surface strain.
- Fillet corrosion due to sulphates.

3) AGGRAVATING FACTORS
- High speed operation and high charge during long periods.
- Ignition advance suitable for gasoline yet insufficient for gas.
- Gas equipment with inadequate A/C regulation. Poor or excessively rich blending.
- Inadequate heat transmission from insert to cylinder head.

4) REQUIREMENTS OF THE HEAD / VALVE SYSTEM
- Inserts of adequate hardness in cylinder head and good contact surface.
- "Premium" material as the valve’s basic materials.
- Hard coatings in the seats of exhaust valves (stellite or the like).
- Application process of cutting-edge plasma coating.

BASSO S.A.’s VALVES FOR CNG

* BASIC INTAKE AND EXHAUST MATERIALS
* SEAT COATING MATERIALS.
* CHROMED STEMS.
* TESTS CARRIED OUT IN DYNAMOMETERS AND HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF KILOMETERS IN SEVERE FLEET SERVICES.
* FIRST-CLASS KNOWLEDGE OF ENGINEERING AND MANUFACTURING.

Preparado por el Ing. FerINTERNATIONAL, Empresa de investigación y desarrollos especiales del grupo BASSO S.A. de ARGENTINA.

[Eutectic]

Lead oxide also caked onto spark plugs, stopping the engine after a few thousand miles."[/I]
http://www.radford.edu/~wkovarik/papers/kettering.html#troubles
And another:
"This lead can oxidize further to give species such as lead(II) oxide: 2 Pb + O2 → 2 PbO
The Pb and PbO would quickly accumulate and destroy an engine. For this reason, the lead scavengers 1,2-dibromoethane and 1,2-dichloroethane are used in conjunction with TEL ..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraethyl_lead


Well Wikipedia and others may know all about this subject, but I Doubt many (if any) have any first hand experience! Keyboard experience by any other name.

The first sentence quoted is the real culprit in this stew..... And it can happen in minutes instead of "thousands of miles" when conditions are right.

Tetraethyl/Tetramethyl lead compounds were added to gasoline years' back to improve 'octane' or anti-knock qualities. When I worked around this subject the maximum TEL we could put in motor fuels (highway vehicles) was 3.0ml/gal. AVGAS followed another set of rules and I believe it was 5.5ml/gal max.
They made a 115/145 octane AVGAS back then and it had all the lead we could put in it usually! We dyed it purple.... Looked like berry juice. When we were kids hopping up our cars we got the grand idea to use this 'purple juice' for racing fuel. It didn't take very long before our V-8 became a V-7! Triple electrode plugs bought us a little time but not much. Reciprocating aircraft engines were designed for this high lead and a lot of the engines had multiple spark plugs per cylinder! My uncle was an Air Force (Air Corps) mechanic and he said they changed plugs A LOT! Not like today where you forget about plugs for 60,000 miles or more!

We added ethylene dibromide to our gasolines back then for lead/fouling control. It scavenged residual lead and lead compounds and exhausted various lead salts out the exhaust. Those old enough to remember will tell you a good running engine (properly tuned) had a light gray color to the interior of the tailpipe. "Wonder where that went?"

Spark plugs..... Too many lead compounds killed them long before the engine! Some of the residuals left behind did help valve/valve seat life in the old days. Unleaded fuel did one thing for us! The valve train metallurgy had to be improved!

You young kids out there don't remember when you got 40,000 miles on your rig; it wasn't all that uncommon to already need a 'valve job'!

Eutectic

[Fly]

Eutectic Thank you buddy.I by no way wanted this post to get on this subject for this
post was about lead Bootits.But man I love that statement you made.

"Ouote"You young kids out there don't remember when you got 40,000 miles on your rig; it wasn't all that uncommon to already need a 'valve job'!

Man they don't make cars like they did in the old days.Ha,Ha!
Fly

[sagacious]

Eutectic and Fly,
The folks at Wikipedia aside, I've tested unlubed 4Sn/12Sb/84Pb alloy bullets, and can speak from a point of personal experience on that regard.

I thought I adequately explained it, but my point in this discussion was to underscore the difference between lead in ICE's and firearm barrels. Perhaps some folks imagine no difference and are willing to contentiously defend that fantasy, and that's OK. But insistence on the magical lubricating properties of lead isn't likely to get one far in his endeavors as a reloader.

But hey-- test it, report back, and everyone benefits! We can talk about unlubed lead bullets until the cows come home, but just fire a few unlubed bullets down your barrel and tell us all about how it went. Almost certainly, some will learn quite a bit from the experience.

I'm just sayin', and no disrespect meant. Best of luck in your experiments. :drinks:

[izzyjoe]

fly, i did'nt want to get in a pissn' contest/or offend you. i was just curious as to what you said. but i see where your coming from. that was a good tech article. and i remember engines not lasting very long 60-80k miles tops, but we have better oils, technoligy, motors nowdays. how'd you know i had sunnen equip. good guess ha:kidding: when i hear people talk about cars(of the good ole days) i just wonder if they have forgoten how loussy they really were. i've seen late model engines with 200k, look like brand new money. now that's something i can tell my grandkids, ohh' the good ole days. enough bout this. lol

[Fly]

Izzyjoe don't worry about it.The Sunnen company has serving the auto industry for many
years.We worked with every engine maker in the world.

GM, Ford, Honda you name it has Sunnen in there plants.The read above mentions BASSO
who make the STELLITE seat rings you use.Ever notice how much harder they are than
any other seats you grind.

This whole topic is why STELLITE came to be in this industry.O well enough on all this.

[303Guy]

Yup. They just don't build cars like they used to. We had to introduce a six month WOF system to keep our motor mechanics in business! (My late model - '92 Hyundai - has only done a mere 300,0000 km's and still running good!)8-)

But lead boolits are going to need some form of lube, not necessarily 'grease'. Oxides and even some 'lubricating metals' might do the trick. Copper jackets don't self lubricate - they copper foul the bore. A good source of lubricant would be powder residues. This may not work in a prestine, highly polished and smooth bore. Give it a few seasons fine rust and it should do fine. But then we would need a 'dirty' burning powder, no? What about the use of a filler that cleans and dry lubricates the bore? Just some thoughts.

I've seen the movie 'The Worlds Fastest Indian'. Interesting to 'meet' someone who has met the man himself. He must have been quite a character!

[Fly]

303 I was very young man at the time I met him.I never dreamed a movie would have
ever been made about him.I cared nothing about Motor cycles.

But that guy was a peace of work.He made everything out of nothing.Being in tool &
die I have all ways been amazed what some people can make with nothing more
than a drill press,a saw, & sander.

Burt told me back then,you can make anything with those three tools.I never forgot that.
One amazing man.God rest his sole.

[izzyjoe]

:-)fly, what kind of gun are going to use for this experiment, and what gr. boolit. cause i tried some round balls in a 30-30 w/no lube, but i was'nt pushing them hard. they problly just fast enough to exit the barrel. and i did'nt shoot many, cause accu. was lousy but i recall no leading. might try some.

[Fly]

Well I'm thinking one of my Mosins.But I may cheat some also.I don't know if this will work
but I plan on trying different mixes in my lead & using gas checks for sure.

Hey I may be trying to chase a star on this.There are guys out there that have forgot
more than I will ever know.But I have several Mosin's I hardly ever shoot any more
& one of then will make a fine test bed.

I'm still very green to all this.I just hate all this sticky lubes.The paper rape sounds
cool also.But there has to be a better way a home caster can approach this with
out all these lubes, don't you think?

[HammerMTB]

I have shot WW air cooled boolits with no lube to 1500 FPS. I plan to go to pure lead or 20-1 soon, for expansion purposes.
The gun is a Marlin 1985G with Ballard rifling.
One item of note: The lead never touches the barrel.
There's paper between them.
I also think, but have yet to try, those boolits would go to 2000FPS+ without a problem.
Since you didn't specify whether boolit and barrel were in contact, I reckon this qualifies.... at least until the rules are changed :mrgreen:

[303Guy]

That's cheat'n, HammerMTB.:mrgreen:

All this talk on plain cast and the references to the other site have made me more and more interested in dedicating one of my Lee Enfields to plain cast boolits! But which one?:?::roll: