Quick few first questions.. [Archive]

Lavid2002

04-29-2010, 01:07 PM

Hey guys, just getting started into pistol shooting and I figured I might as well start casting too!

I'm new here and have been poking around the site for a few days I figured its time for a question or two. But first heres a little background on me
*Been shooting for about 6 years
*Reloading for 3 years
*Big shotgun + rifle guy but VERY new to pistol
*I have never casted before

These are the things i'm still puzzled on. Can you guys help me out a bit?

*Which lube is the best? I know this is a controversial subject but is there a lube that everyone agrees on? One type that no one likes? Do they all work and its preference?

*Slugging a barrel...
I will be reloading for a 1911. Do I need to slug the barrel prior to ordering a sizing die? Or can I simply buy this sizing die...
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=444306
And size them to .451 and call it a day?

*Why do some flux materials cost so much? If a chunk of wax does the job why pay 15 bucks for 6 oz. of fluxing powder?

Thanks for the help everyone! I went out and bought a 109 lb. bucket of wheel weights and started sorting out the zinc and steel WW's. I got a pot, outdoors propane burner, muffin tray, and a spoon.

-Dave :grin:

qajaq59

04-29-2010, 01:19 PM

I like the Lyman lube. BUT.....We all seem to like a different lube so your best bet is to try several and see which one you like best.

I don't shoot pistol anymore, but I do slug my rifles and size accordingly. I find less leading with a proper fit.

*Why do some flux materials cost so much? If a chunk of wax does the job why pay 15 bucks for 6 oz. of fluxing powder? I've never figured that one out either, considering that old candle wax or saw dust is free.

epj

04-29-2010, 01:25 PM

You'll likely get no concensus on lube. A lot depends on whether you want to tumble lube, hand or pan lube, or are using a lubricator/sizer. Then whether or not the machine has heat is another consideration. As to sizing, your 1911 almost certainly has a .451 groove diameter. If your chamber will accept a loaded round with a .452 slug, that would be optimal. However, Lyman recommends a .451 due to possible chamber interference with a .452 bullet. Personally, I use .452 and have no chamber issues with several 1911's and a Smith revolver.
As to flux, I have always used parafin or wax of some type. My wooded stir stick seems to work well also. There will likely be no consensus on this subject either.

Lavid2002

04-29-2010, 01:26 PM

fredj338

04-29-2010, 02:01 PM

So you recommend I slug the BBL?

Also, how do I tell whether or not I like a lube? If it doesnt leave lead fouling its G2G? What other factors determine a good lube?

Thanks
-Dave'

Edit: After research I think I will be pan-lubing the bullets....which leads to another mystery :D

For these guys who use this *alox?* lube...who lube the bullett, size them, then re-lube...why dont they simply size then lube? I dont get it?

For this wax and sawdust thing. Can I simply melt some wax, and toss sawdust into it. Do I want a lot or a little sawdust. What does each do?
The stick lubes by WHite Label are top notch. Yo ucan pan lube w/ BAC or 50/50 or 2500. Maybe Carnuba too, but it might be a bit mor ediff to get the bullets out of a harder lube.
You can, probably should, slug the bbl, but I load for 5 diff 45acp. I am not about to mix & match ammo. I find a 0.452" sized bullet works across the board. Now, finding cheap alloy, that is the real trick today.

Lavid2002

04-29-2010, 02:19 PM

Cracks me up man... The steps of a shooter

Shoot- People complain about factory ammo prices

Reload save money on factory ammo-People complain about component prices

Cast to save money on reloading components-People complain about the price of raw materials

A viscous cycle! hahaha

Do most lubes prevent leading? Or do you have to really hunt for a good one? Im sure i'm not the only person reloading for a 1911 with WWs by a long shot.

454PB

04-29-2010, 02:25 PM

If you don't want to slug your barrel, get a .452" sizer. Most of use use cast boolits .001" oversize anyway.

The reason Lee tells you to lube/size/relube is to sell more liquid alox. Any lube will work for the trip through the sizer, some use dish soap and water. I use my normal case resizing lube and do every third boolit or so. If you use no lube, the boolits may resist be pushed through the die depending on how much they are actually sized.

For 30 years I made my own lube, but more recently I've been using Lar's lube
http://www.lsstuff.com/index.html

I can hardly buy the components for what he charges, and it works very well. I like the BAC lube, but he offers several different types.

As to the pricey flux, I use it for my indoors casting because it's smoke free, and a can lasts for 100's of casting sessions.

gray wolf

04-29-2010, 02:36 PM

Welcome new person--happy to have you.
What kind of 1911 are you shooting?
As it has been said .452 is a very popular size for a 45. I would hate to see you get a .451 and have to open it up.
I have found that while lube plays an important part in the leading and accuracy equation
bullet fit is king. Lars lubes are great, and many, many shooters like the Carnuba red and you wont get a better price anyplace. + he is a member here.
I myself don't like the mess with pan lubing or tumble lubing, but that is just my opinion.
Many folks do and have no problem. A nice 450 Lyman sizer --used if you can find one and your all set. Just need the .452 sizer die for it.
For your WW smelting many me included don't use anything --just the nasty stuff thats on the WW will do the job. In my melting pot I use just saw dust. About a half inch on top of the melt. Let it get burned a little so it is for sure dry and stir it in. Leave the ash on top of the melt and it will help stop oxidation of the tin and antimony. As the pot gets down to about half skim of the old saw dust and any dross on top of the melt, add new metal and repeat the proses. I don't use wax anymore but it does not hurt to do so. The saw dust is a little cleaner on the pot and a little less nasty smoke.
You will have a million questions and this is the place to ask. The casting brothers here are great people, every one of them
Go slow and think every step through --stop and ask and you will be fine.
Most of us have been there done that--somethings two times. We still ask and learn.
So good luck and enjoy the silver stream.

Sam

462

04-29-2010, 02:39 PM

Lavid2002,
Welcome.

A certain amount of frugality is what has made us casters and reloaders. We may not save any money, but we're frugal while we go about it.

I lube and size with a Lyman 4500 and use Jake's Products lube. I have no connection with the company. http://www.jakesproducts.com/index.html

Paraffin is an excellent, inexpensive and readily available flux.

I believe that slugging barrels, and revolver throats is necessary.

mdi

04-29-2010, 02:40 PM

If you don't have one, get Lyman's Cast bullet Handbook. Lots of history, how-to, and troubleshooting. Read it and you'll have a good idea of what equipment to use for your casting needs. It's easy to get started withoput breaking the bank, and adding equipment/tools as "needed". Go to the Bullet Lube! section and look at the stickies. Lots of good info/insight on different styles of lubing boolits. I personally tumble lube with the 45-45-10 method and pan lube using either Carnuba Red or My Formula #1. White Label Lube is a great company to deal with and has good products. http://www.lsstuff.com/lube/index.html

I started casting out of curiosity and it has grown into a hobby in itself! Now I cast for most of my guns (waiting on molds for my 45 ACP)and have a few guns that have never had a jacket shot through them. Casting for me is a very rewarding passtime; turning scrap lead into shiny, accurate, boolits for my guns...

Lavid2002

04-29-2010, 03:31 PM

Is the lyman lubrisizer worth it? It seems like pan lubing is much easier and efficient. No tube-0-lube to deal with...

I also dont need to add another press and clutter up the bench :D

The gun is a springfield armory mil spec 1911
I want to cast 230 grain bullets for it with this mold
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=148534

docone31

04-29-2010, 03:40 PM

Size to .452, and pan lube. Get a Lee .452 sizing die.
Badabing, Badaboom.
Keeps it simple.

Lavid2002

04-29-2010, 03:48 PM

1.65 seems like a good price for the 50-50 white label stuff...but then I learned its only 1 ounce. How much of this stuff would I need for 5,000 boolits?

: )

-Dave

RodneyUSAF

04-29-2010, 03:59 PM

I've lubed 4k, and haven't finished the 4th stick yet. BAC lube, lee 452-228 mold.

AZ-Stew

04-29-2010, 04:05 PM

The Lee design you link us to is designed as a tumble lube boolit, but I believe there are folks here using it with a lube/sizer. I have the same mold and there are 100 of the boolits sitting on my bench waiting to be loaded this evening. I'll be putting them into .45 Colt cases to try in a Winchester M94 lever rifle and a Ruger Blackhawk tomorrow. I ran them through my Lyman 450 using a .452 die. I expect them to work well.

Why the lube/sizer? It's a lot less messy than any of the other methods of lube/sizing boolits, as well as accomplishing the two jobs at once. I never have and probably never will use the tumble lube method. I can't think of a better way to gum up hands, bench and seater dies. Pan lube is probably OK. Never tried it, but then you have to cut the boolits free of the cooled lube, which I suspect may be a bit messier than the lube/sizer, but better than tumbling. Some folks use their fingers to apply lube, but doing so probably doesn't produce boolits as evenly lubed as can be done with a lube/sizer, to say nothing of directly handling the lube. None of these last three methods accomplish the sizing. That would add an extra step to the process. It's not that I don't want to get my hands dirty, but the stuff IS messy, and the more you handle it, the more stuff gets gummed up. I've been using Alox/beeswax lube for 35 years and have no complaints. I'm going to try making some myself with some of Randy Rat's beeswax and some Lee Liquid Alox. I can make a pound or more for the same price I'd pay for a couple ounces of store-bought Alox/beeswax lube.

Marvelux doesn't smoke, which makes it a good indoor flux. It's drawback, other than price, is that it absorbs moisture from the air, which causes two problems. First, the residue will rust your casting pot, unless it's made of stainless steel. Second, residue on your stirring spoon may/will invite a visit from the Tinsel Fairy if it's dunked cold into a pot of melted alloy. This can be avoided by placing the spoon on top of the alloy in the pot before turning on the pot. The heat from the melting process will drive off the moisture before the spoon can be immersed in the melt.

Welcome aboard!

Regards,

Stew

Lavid2002

04-29-2010, 04:05 PM

I'll be pan lubing though...so a will need to have X amount of lube on hand just to reach the lube groove on the bullets you know? If I order 10 sticks you think I will be legitimate for pan lubing in a pie sized dish?

qajaq59

04-29-2010, 07:28 PM

If you don't have one, get Lyman's Cast bullet Handbook. That's a good piece of advice.

MtGun44

04-29-2010, 07:56 PM

Pan lubing is "easy and efficient" . . . . . . . OK, depends on the definition of efficient.

Efficient with what resource?? If you mean money, yes. If you mean time, no.

"Easy" - compared to what? Compared to a lubrisizer? No. Compared to smearing it on
by hand, OH way easier!

Start with pan lubing. The number of boolits that you use will pretty quickly tell you if you
need to spend the money for a lubrisizer. Either unsized or Lee pushthru is the cheapest
way to start.

Good luck. Make sure you get a separate taper crimp die. Please search on my name and
.45 ACP and read some of my past posts on the caliber. Save you some trouble and get you
happy sooner.

Bill

HangFireW8

04-29-2010, 09:57 PM

These are the things i'm still puzzled on. Can you guys help me out a bit?

*Which lube is the best? I know this is a controversial subject but is there a lube that everyone agrees on? One type that no one likes? Do they all work and its preference?

We have gotten to the point that most any commercial lube will do a great job in most, if not all, applications. It gets down to convenience and price, like avoiding too much stickiness, or tolerating stickiness to avoid buying a heater for the lubrisizer, or avoiding smokiness in indoor ranges etc.

*Slugging a barrel...
I will be reloading for a 1911. Do I need to slug the barrel prior to ordering a sizing die? Or can I simply buy this sizing die...
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=444306
And size them to .451 and call it a day?

Definitely slug. Mine yielded up a surprising, uh, set of bore diameters. Plural.

*Why do some flux materials cost so much? If a chunk of wax does the job why pay 15 bucks for 6 oz. of fluxing powder?

*Glances at shelf*

There is money to be made.

Well, OK, the fancy powder is better at getting the grit out of a big pot full of wheel weight melt. After that beeswax is all you need while casting and smells great as well, and doesn't attract moisture to your casting pot.

Thanks for the help everyone! I went out and bought a 109 lb. bucket of wheel weights and started sorting out the zinc and steel WW's. I got a pot, outdoors propane burner, muffin tray, and a spoon.

Sounds like you are off and running!

-HF

Rockydog

04-29-2010, 10:00 PM

Lavid, You don't need a real big pan to pan lube. I picked up some small flat tart pans about 4" in diameter at the dollar store. I can carefully place a bunch of smaller caliber bullets in each one. For a 45 a 6" diameter pan would get about 30 bullets around the outside row and at least another 15 in the second row another 10 in the third row etc. Probably close to 75 in total. Doesn't take much lube to surround them. But you might want to warm them a bit with a blow dryer prior to lubing as the lube won't provide much heat. Should help get the lube into the corners etc. RD

Lavid2002

04-29-2010, 10:13 PM

I have the ABC's of reloading and lymans 48th reloading manual. I have read them both in their entirety except for all the recipes (That would be foolish) But I should go back and re-read the casting sections good idea! To be honest I forgot those books even covered it because when I read it a few years ago I NEVER expected to cast boolits....ever : )

Bucket is unsorted, mail box thing is lead, cardboard is full of trash. I have my muffin tin, and my old pot I am going to use for the initial melt!

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s161/lavid2002/IMGP0445.jpg

About the lube...you think 10 zip lock bags will cover me for a while? 16 bucks...might as well buy enough to make the shipping fee worth while you know?

Echo

04-29-2010, 10:51 PM

Lavid, I will suggest not sizing to .451. I suggest not sizing at all, load a trial cartridge, and see if it chambers in an assembled gun! Seat the boolit so that maybe .030-.040 of the shoulder protrudes from the case neck, and see if, when feeding from the magazine, the round chambers and the gun goes fully into battery. If it does, you are home free.

If the round doesn't chamber, then you may need to size down to .452. And test it by feeding from the magazine in an assembled gun! Using the barrel to set seating length is popular, and recommended by many, but is unnecessary, IMHO. Rounds that may stand proud in the disassembled barrel may well chamber reliably, due to the 300G slam the slide gives the round. When the boolit shoulder impinges on the leade, or onset of the rifling, it will effectively reduce endplay to zero, improving accuracy.

And 10 ziplock bags will last a LOOONG time...

454PB

04-29-2010, 11:18 PM

Obviously you will be "smelting" outside, and anything that contains carbon from bacon fat to used motor oil will work for fluxing. My wheelweights are so greasy when I get them that they need no additional flux.

I use Marvelux or the equivalent made by Frankford Arsenal for casting indoors. I've used this for 30 years, and none of my pots have rusted yet. Yes, you do have to be careful with preheating your stirring/dipping utensils when using Marvelux, but then that's good practice even if you don't use Marvelux.

I was dirt poor and had a new baby when I started casting for .45 Colt 39 years ago, so I had a single cavity Lyman 454190 and used the kitchen stove and a tablespoon for a dipper. I then lubed each boolit with my fingers and shot them unsized. Pan lubing is better, but still really slow.

Check back in with us after you've done a few thousand boolits by pan lubing.

Lavid2002

04-30-2010, 10:25 AM

How does fluxing work exactly? I can use any material because all its doing is giving the garbage in the lead something to stick to so I can skim it out??

I just order 1 lb of 50-50 bees wax from white label lube co. I have over 100 lb in WW's. A place to smelt and cast ingots. I will order the smelting pot and bullet moulds soon.

You guys are the best!

-Dave

Wayne Smith

04-30-2010, 10:47 AM

How does fluxing work exactly? I can use any material because all its doing is giving the garbage in the lead something to stick to so I can skim it out??

-Dave

Dave, not really. The most significant thing fluxing does is mix oxydized metal back into the alloy. All of us that ladle pour are used to this. Anything that exposes the lead to air results in oxydation of the metals, mostly tin and lead. Sticking a ladle in and pulling it out exposes lots of metal to the air. After a while the top of the melt is covered with oxydized metal that needs to be fluxed back into the melt.

Junk and trash float to the top if they can, much will be trapped by the weight of the metal. That's why you stir the melt, to release this trash to the top to be skimmed off. This is different than fluxing the metal, you need no flux to do this.

Lavid2002

04-30-2010, 10:54 AM

I thought the flux was to clean the metal...Its for the layer of oxidation that forms on top? Does this give bottom pouring smelters an advantage?

felix

04-30-2010, 11:05 AM

Yes, but that is not the whole story. The metal has to get into the mold consistently amongst the many boolits produced. With experienced hands, ladle pouring provides a better probability that this can be done. The culprit is with the consistency of air escaping from the cavities. That has to do with the lead being poured, its rate of pour, and the boolit design for the mold material. You can expect different results on different casting days. The best days SEEM to be when the atmosphere is condensing rather than evaporating. ... felix

Wayne Smith

04-30-2010, 02:44 PM

I thought the flux was to clean the metal...Its for the layer of oxidation that forms on top? Does this give bottom pouring smelters an advantage?

Yes and yes and in one way. Cleaning the metal includes putting oxidized metal back into the melt. Those who use bottom pour pots advocate a layer of something like kitty litter (clay) on top of the melt. This creates an oxygen barrier and prevents oxidation. There are other problems with bottom pour pots and if you read other threads here you will see that there is no 'right' or even 'best' way to melt the lead and get it into the mold.

Lavid2002

04-30-2010, 04:30 PM

Im still confused about flux. Heres what I have...

Fluxing is NOT used to clean garbage out of the metal. That can be done without flux by simply agitating the mix and skimming the top.

Flux should be dont before pouring ingots, and every 10 minutes or so while casting.
....something to do with oxidization and moving old metal into the new metal...

Fluxing can be done with any carbon based material like wax or sawdust

Echo

04-30-2010, 07:55 PM

I use a bottle of rancid vegetable oil for fluxing outside. Didn't use it for years, sat 'way back in the cabinet, finally found it & brought it out, and it WAS NOT TO BE USED in cooking! Works...

AZ-Stew

04-30-2010, 08:22 PM

I had expected to post a report on the RN TL Lee boolit fired from the Blackhawk and Winchester this evening, but some dumb ba$$ (a stupid fish) left his .45 ammo at home when he went to the range today. He took the .38s and .223s, but forgot the .45s.

He has the weekend to try again. Let's hope he's not as stupid next trip.

Regards,

Stew

HangFireW8

04-30-2010, 10:49 PM

I have the ABC's of reloading and lymans 48th reloading manual. I have read them both in their entirety except for all the recipes (That would be foolish)

Huh? I spend entire evenings reading and comparing loads. Nothing worthwhile on TV and don't feel like competing for the remote, either.

-HF

303Guy

04-30-2010, 11:41 PM

... but some dumb ba$$ (a stupid fish) left his .45 ammo at home when he went to the range today.Hee hee hee! Been there, done that! That's what makes it so funny!:mrgreen: (Been out out hunting without the guns bolt too!) :veryconfu

Lavid2002

05-01-2010, 09:25 AM

Huh? I spend entire evenings reading and comparing loads. Nothing worthwhile on TV and don't feel like competing for the remote, either.

Taking a glance over to analytically compare loads and learn the principles behind them is one thing. Reading every single load like a book....line by line left to right would be pointless.

I have work 10-5 today but when I get home I'm going to smelt my ingots WOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!:Fire:

Lavid2002

05-01-2010, 12:30 PM

Got some nice leather gloves too...I'm on break form work...Quick question....do I need anything special to stir the lead with? With any old long handled metal spoon do? A wooden handle is preferable right?

How about pouring the ingots.... I probably need a ladle for that right?

-Dave

Lavid2002

05-03-2010, 01:37 AM

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s161/lavid2002/IMGP0455.jpg
OK! I smelted my first three batches. Batch #1 was mixed WWs....a total fail. It melted then I found I had zinc contamination and I had to throw the whole pot out... After that I learned how to test WWs to see if they were lead or zinc. I made a good batch but failed to flux properly because it was dark.

Today, I re melted those ingots. Melted them into new nice ingots and marked them W for WWs.

I then made a batch of stick on WWs these were REALLY soft...super duper soft. I marked these ingots S for stick on WWs. I have about 40 lb's of muffin ingots now. I am a happy n00b : D

My question is. Should these stick on WW's be cut with the other WW's to even out the hardness...are they possibly TOO soft and will cause leading?

462

05-03-2010, 10:29 AM

Don't smelt stick-on and clip-on weights at the same time, as is evident in the picture. Smelt them seperately and segregate when storing. When casting, combine them to make different ratios, such as 50/50, 75/25.

Lavid2002

05-03-2010, 10:36 AM

Wow....really? My first batch I combined them and messed up, second was al WW...third was all stick on. I did something right! Woo hoo : D

So whats a good ratio? How about 50/50?

How will the ratio effect the bullet? (Besides softness for expansion)

alamogunr

05-03-2010, 11:09 AM

If you don't have one, get Lyman's Cast bullet Handbook. Lots of history, how-to, and troubleshooting.

If you can hold off, a new edition is supposed to be coming out(Soon)?. The current edition has been around for a long time. Hopefully the new one will be as useful to a beginner and an experienced caster as the past editions.

Doby45

05-03-2010, 11:11 AM

After just going through 2 5gal buckets worth of weight sorting, I also cringed when I saw your "mail box" in the first picture. I thought to myself "Sort those clip-ons and stick-ons into seperate boxes". But, I did not say anything because some people do NOT sort their clip-ons and stick-ons. They just count it all as WW alloy. As 462 stated though, I like the ability to be able to mix the proper alloy with known ingots, atleast known by me. ;-)

Your further along than me though. I just got my 2 buckets sorted and got my propane tank cut in half this weekend. I should be making me some ingots real soon.