Leading issues

[Avit187]

Hello everyone. I am a new member to this forum. I was told by the guys at AR15.COM to come here for casting information.

I have shot commercially cast lead for a few years without any issues.

I am new to casting, and for now am only casting .45acp for my 1911 and G30 (after-market barrel used for lead).

I made some ignots out of ww. I am using a Lee 2 cavity (.452) 230g RN. And Lee Alox for lube.

Every range test has caused server leading of the barrel in both guns after only small amount of shots were taken. (disassembled both guns after only 10 rounds each and lead was present)

I played with my alloy and made it harder by following a "hard ball" recipe and adding antimony. The bullets came out noticeably harder. Back to the range....same results, major leading in both barrels after only 10 shots each.

I played with it and made it softer...but no matter how i adjust the alloy the same results persist.

I also tried sizing the bullets to .452 and that produced the worst results of anything i tried.

Did some more reading and learned about slugging the barrel to determine the grove/bore diameters. After slugging the 1911 i find that it has a .4523 bore diameter. The after-market Glock barrel is .4519

My lee mold casts bullets that are at approximately .451 - .452.

What do you think my best solution is?
I assume i need to use a bullet that is about .454 in order to correct my leading issues. Is that correct?

If so, where do i find a .454 mold in a 230g RN?

Should i look into swagging?

This is making me nuts. Casting is fun and easy (so i thought) and would allow me to shoot for pennies, but these problems have kept me from shooting as much as i would (can't stand to pay for jacketed with all this free lead sitting here!!) Any advice would be a great help. Thank you.

UPDATE:

Thanks again for all the reply's. I tried a new RCBS 230gn RN mold and a lube made from a recipe i found in the tacked threads . Shot 50 rounds with no leading whatsoever. This site has been a huge help. Thanks again.

[jimmeyjack]

I had the same issue in my 1911, large bore at 452. i overcame the leading with an air cooled ww and upped the powder charge using an as cast .452. Worked for me.

[Harter66]

Sort of new too.

I think you are on the right track with moving up to .454. The ACPs wil shoot well with nearly "dead soft"I believe ,I shoot jacketed/plated range scrape cores in my 45 Colts at up to 1100 fps. I have seen issues with the case crimp being too heavy and swedging a boolit down making it undersized.

Are you sizing to .452 or shooting as cast?

If you are as cast you may be able to "beagle" the mould to try it larger ,its in the stickies,I haven't mastered all of the cut paste linking stuff yet.

Hope I've been of some help.

[Moonie]

Softer boolits or bigger boolits. With a softer boolit it will bump up, might also try a faster load (within safe limits) to bump up heharder ones you have.

[mpmarty]

Welcome aboard!
It would help us to give some constructive advice if you told us what powder and how much you are using.

[Char-Gar]

I am a long time user of cast bullets in various 1911 pistols and here are my thoughts on your situation.

1. You didn't give us the power type and charge weight. That puts a real handicap on trying to get a hand on your situation. That might be the missing key.

2. Air cooled WW is about right in hardness

3. .452 will do just fine as a sizing diameter with the above alloy.

4. You will be a much happier man if you get a traditional style bullet mold and use a softer traditional lube. I am no fan of the Lee TL bullets and Lee Alox lube. I know it is easy, but easy often is not best.

5. You should be able to brush out any lead from your pistol barrel with about 20 fore and aft strokes with a good bronze brush. But the mil-surp 50 cal brushes at the gun show for such a use. More lead than than and you have "issues" somewhere.

[243winxb]

Bullet diameter needed to be .452" More lube & reduce powder charge if at maximum. Make sure you not sizing your bullets in the loaded round with a Factory Crimp Die.
Cast bullet leading

A clue to what is causing the leading is where the leading first begins to appear. If it appears near the chamber, chances are that bullet diameter or hardness are the cause.

A diameter too small and/or too hard an alloy will allow high pressure gas to leak past the bullet, which erodes the bullet and leaves leading near the chamber.

If the leading first appears on the leading edge of the rifling (if you imagine the bullet being pushed through the barrel, you will note that one edge of the rifling does most of the work of imparting a spin to the bullet. This is the edge you see when you look through the barrel from the breech end) the bullet might be too soft, and/or the velocity too high.

If the leading appears in the second half of the barrel, the bullet is running out of lube. You should see a star shaped pattern of lube accumulate on the muzzle. This is an indication that there is a little excess lube.

[jimmeyjack]

My 1911's won't even chamber a bullet sized over.452 without a heavy crimp or a lee fcd die, which brings on leading again.

[Avit187]

Welcome aboard!
It would help us to give some constructive advice if you told us what powder and how much you are using.

thanks for the help...

I am using 4.8g of IMR 700-X

have gone as low as 4.4 and as high as 5.2

4.8g of 700x was a load that always shot well for me with commercial lead, i am attempting to cast the same boolit (230 gr rn) when i first started out, and had some leading i assumed it was because the boolits were soft. So i adjusted the charge down to 4.6, then 4.4, any lower and i would short stroke.

Next i cast some harder boolits. loaded some using 4.8g as the starting point again. same results. Leading appeared heavy in the throat, but fouling was present the entire length. I adjusted the charge up 5.0 and then 5.2. same results.

That's when i slugged the barrel.

I have not tried changing powder...i can use some 231 that i have on hand.

[Avit187]

I am a long time user of cast bullets in various 1911 pistols and here are my thoughts on your situation.

1. You didn't give us the power type and charge weight. That puts a real handicap on trying to get a hand on your situation. That might be the missing key.

2. Air cooled WW is about right in hardness

3. .452 will do just fine as a sizing diameter with the above alloy.

4. You will be a much happier man if you get a traditional style bullet mold and use a softer traditional lube. I am no fan of the Lee TL bullets and Lee Alox lube. I know it is easy, but easy often is not best.

5. You should be able to brush out any lead from your pistol barrel with about 20 fore and aft strokes with a good bronze brush. But the mil-surp 50 cal brushes at the gun show for such a use. More lead than than and you have "issues" somewhere.

Thank you for your reply.

Being new to casting can you explain to me what a "traditional style bullet mold" is compared to what i am using. I think i will go to a traditional lube.

[Fly]

Hello everyone. I am a new member to this forum. I was told by the guys at AR15.COM to come here for casting information.

I have shot commercially cast lead for a few years without any issues.

I am new to casting, and for now am only casting .45acp for my 1911 and G30 (after-market barrel used for lead).

I made some ignots out of ww. I am using a Lee 2 cavity (.452) 230g RN. And Lee Alox for lube.

Every range test has caused server leading of the barrel in both guns after only small amount of shots were taken. (disassembled both guns after only 10 rounds each and lead was present)

I played with my alloy and made it harder by following a "hard ball" recipe and adding antimony. The bullets came out noticeably harder. Back to the range....same results, major leading in both barrels after only 10 shots each.

I played with it and made it softer...but no matter how i adjust the alloy the same results persist.

I also tried sizing the bullets to .452 and that produced the worst results of anything i tried.

Did some more reading and learned about slugging the barrel to determine the grove/bore diameters. After slugging the 1911 i find that it has a .4523 bore diameter. The after-market Glock barrel is .4519

My lee mold casts bullets that are at approximately .451 - .452.

What do you think my best solution is?
I assume i need to use a bullet that is about .454 in order to correct my leading issues. Is that correct?

If so, where do i find a .454 mold in a 230g RN?

Should i look into swagging?

This is making me nuts. Casting is fun and easy (so i thought) and would allow me to shoot for pennies, but these problems have kept me from shooting as much as i would (can't stand to pay for jacketed with all this free lead sitting here!!) Any advice would be a great help. Thank you.

That's Funny Be Fun & Shoot for pennys.I'm just getting into this also & I
can see already see it's not going to be that cheap.But after we get over some of this learning curve I think this will be a blast.

I think the fun part will be sharing what we learn on different types of boolits
we try & make.:drinks:

[MtGun44]

+1 on ditch the liquid Alox.

Traditional boolit designs have one or two (or more) large lube grooves that are filled with
a soft and sticky (in most cases for non-commercial boolits) lube. One of the 'known good'
lubes is the NRA formula which is 50/50 beeswax - alox. This is applied by a lubrisizer in
most cases, but pan lubing and Lee push thru sizers or shooting as cast and pan lubed will
work fine, too. Plenty of other good lubes out there, too.

Search on lubrisizer, pan lube and you will learn more. The Lee tumble lube designs have
little ripples for lube and are doused in liquid alox (AKA Mule Snot). Sometimes they work, often they
do not and we spend a bunch of time here cleaning up Lee's mess. I used to be more
careful not to offend about this, but it is getting to be an epidemic.

" I am getting a lot of leading and I am using Lee's liquid alox, what should I do?"

IMO, step one is to switch to a real lube and a real boolit design. Sorry to be so blunt.
Some folks DO have success with the system and it is cheap to use, espcially low in
initial investment.

[excavman]

Avit,
A good test to prove what MTGun44 says is true is to buy a stick of beeswax/alox lube and smear it with your fingers into the lube groove of your as cast boolits then load and shoot. Surprise! Surprise! No more leading. Also, you might try adding some tin to your mix, one pound 50/50 bar solder to 20 lbs ww.

Larry

[82nd airborne]

I will concur that TL isnt the best way to lube a boolit. However, if it is what you have on hand, I have found it helps a lot if you tumble lube them once, heavily, then stand them base-down on a sheet of wax paper. let them stand for a day and then repeat the process once more. This has improved some of the problems i have had with the system.

[sqlbullet]

I gotta +1 much of the advice here.

The bullet has to fit the bore tightly or it will lead. This means either the bullet must enter the bore .001" larger than the groove diameter, or must be soft enough to deform to that size when fired.

For some auto-loaders, the first solution is not an option due to tight chambers. Also, your crimping step may be inadvertently sizing the bullet down.

So, that brings us to bullet hardness and deformation. 700X is a fast powder to me, but it is way down the rate chart from Bullseye and Red Dot. You may want to consider a faster powder, which will generate higher pressures for a similar velocity and recoil. I am not advocating exceeding safe max loads however!

Also, softer lead, not harder! Seems counter intuitive until you understand that your leading is caused by a bullet that is too small. You need a softer alloy so it can obturate on firing and fill the bore. Many here recommend WW mixed half/half with pure lead and air cooled.

Finally, lube. Lots of guys here don't seem to like the LLA much. However, I have had great luck with it in 40 S&W, 10mm Auto, 38/357 Mag and 44 Mag...provided the bullets fit the bore! If the bullets are a little small, LLA provides very little hydraulic seal. A lube that fills a traditional grease groove provides a lot more volume to help create that hydraulic seal.

I had leading in my 10mm at first. But only with light loads with Blue Dot. Full power loads with Blue Dot were fine, as were full power loads with Unique. The Unique loads were the same velocity at the light loads with Blue Dot, but because Unique is faster, it provided similar pressure at peak to the full power blue dot loads. Did some reading and came to suspect my bullets were a little small. Slugged my bore, and sure enough, it was .401 same as I was sizing my bullets. Honed out the sizing die to 402 and now it runs like a top with everything.

[55BoysATR]

I'm in a similar situation to Avit187....

Dropped some Lee 215gr 44's and tumble lube 158gr 38's from scrap lead shot with a bit of tin added. First trial with pan lubing (paraffin/petroleum jelly) the 44's using 7.5 gr Unique gave me 2.5-3" at 30 yds. Not great, but little leading with undersized bullet (.428). Same bullet tumble lubed with LLA/JPW opened the groups up to 6" and leaded the barrel up from forcing cone to muzzle. My 38's (dropping .359) lubed with LLA/JPW shot well with just over 4 grains of 231 (groups about 2" at 30yds), but the forcing cones were leaded up good with the rest of the barrel pretty much lead free. Pondering what my next step will be to get a cleaner barrel..

[243winxb]

I am using 4.8g of IMR 700-X

have gone as low as 4.4 and as high as 5.2 Hodgdons data list 5.0gr as maximum with a 230gr lead. Plus if you weigh you cast boolits,i bet the go over the 230gr weight. Lube would seem to be your problem.

[Avit187]

Thanks for all the good reply's fellas!

I Have ordered a new mold with traditional lube grooves. And intend to do some pan lubing.

Thanks again for the help...I will continue to experiment till i get it right.

[Avit187]

Hodgdons data list 5.0gr as maximum with a 230gr lead. Plus if you weigh you cast boolits,i bet the go over the 230gr weight. Lube would seem to be your problem.

that is correct. But i look at 5 different reloading books all current editions and average out a min and max. Some manuals have the max as high as 6.2 grains for 700x others don't go over 5.

In all my years averaging out min and maxes i have never had a problem. But then again that was before i started casting my own. They are dropping right around 220 grains from this current mold. (new one on the way, will have to see what it drops them at)

[243winxb]

220grs, i lost that bet.:shock:

[kelbro]

I have pushed WW and #2 bullets very fast with LLA/JPW blends with no leading so I would start with the size concern. I also use Lithi-bee pan lube and have no leading and a little better accuracy.

[243winxb]

I played with my alloy and made it harder by following a "hard ball" recipe and adding antimony. How much tin is in the alloy? From my old Lyman book.
While antimony is used to harden the bullet, the mixture of tin is critical, for while antimony mixes with lead in its molten state, it will not remain mixed when it solidifies. If tin were not added, we would have pure antimony crystals surrounded by pure lead. A bullet of this type , while it feels hard , would certainly lead the bore and eliminate all potential for accuracy.. In a lead-tin-antimony mixture, the antimony crystals will be present just the same, but they will be imbedded in a lead-tin mixutre. As the bullet cools the tin will form around the antimony-lead keeping your bullets from leading the bore.

[Leadforbrains]

I cast my .45acp boolits out of straight WW. I size to .452 with an RCBS lubrisizer and BAC lube. I load them over W231 powder or WST and I have good accuracy and no leading. I cast my hollowpoint boolits out of range lead and I have no leading there either. Store bought cast boolits lead my pistols bad and they are pretty hard. I have tried Titegroup powder and got some leading. What I am saying is you are going to have to play with all the variables in order to get it right for your pistol. The sizing, the lube, hardness, powder and powder charge are going ot be have to be adjusted to find that sweet spot for your pistol.
The fine folks on this board have certainly narrowed it down some for you, and I am just repeating the advice you have already heard. I hope this helps