ringed chamber

[hiram]

My friend has a ss Marlin in cal 450 Marlin. He ringed the chamber and then asked me about it. He never knew about such a thing.

[JesterGrin_1]

He should send it to Marlin and they will fix it. :)

[Matt_G]

Can you find out the particulars on the load that caused this and post them? It may keep others from doing the same thing.

About 15 years ago I ringed the chamber in my Model 700 ADL in .270 Win.
The load that caused it was the Lyman 280642, gas checked, sized .278, oven heat treated and lubed with Rooster HVR, sitting on top of 32.0 grs. of IMR 3031 and a Fed 210m primer with a 1 gr. Dacron filler.
I'm not sure what caused my ringed chamber. My gut tells me I accidentally packed the Dacron down onto the powder before seating the boolit.
Upon firing the round there was nothing unusual. Absolutely no indications that something had just gone wrong. I almost didn't get the bolt open to extract the case while at the range.
Once I got the empty case out of the gun I saw the ring on the neck about an eighth of an inch back from the mouth.
My gunsmith had to turn the barrel back one thread and recut the chamber. Heck maybe it was two threads, I'm not sure.

[Cadillo]

From what I have read, ringing is a fairly common occurance when using dacron or other fiber fillers to aid with reduced loads. I will not attempt it for that reason.

[StarMetal]

That's your opinion Cadillo. It's not a common occurrence. It may be a common occurrence among filler users that use them improperly....that is like tamping them down over top the powder and leaving an airspace between them and the bullet base. There are many many here among us Castboolit member, respected and knowledgeable members I may add, that have been using fillers for not just years, but decades with nary a bad occurrence, simply because they use it correctly. Pack Dacron or Kapok into a wad over your powder leaving an airspace between it and the bullet base, or putting a cardboard wad over to the powder in the same manner is inviting disaster.

[AkMike]

If you have read the book by the lateCharlie Dell you'd know it the airspace that causes the ringing. He could ring a chamber anytime he wanted on purpose.
I use dacron or foam plugs the fill the space in my big bores. And I'm talking 3 1/4" cases with smokeless instead of cordite.

[StarMetal]

I forgot to mention on that 450 Marlin you can see the ringing was at the base of the bullet. Kinda of looks like a cardboard wad over top the powder situation to me.

[Matt_G]

It may be a common occurrence among filler users that use them improperly....that is like tamping them down over top the powder and leaving an airspace between them and the bullet base.

Yep, I'm 99% sure that is what I did to cause the ring in my .270 Win.
Just got complacent and wasn't paying attention is my guess. Believe me, I'll never make that mistake again. :oops:

[hiram]

I don't know the load but my friend told me he placed a wad (felt, I think) over the powder.

[Ben]

Cadillo :
Your comment ,,,,
" I will not attempt it for that reason. "

I'm with you ! !

Ben

[StarMetal]

I don't know the load but my friend told me he placed a wad (felt, I think) over the powder.

There you go Hiram, wad over the powder...I take it an air space between it and the bullet and that's exactly where the ring is.

[Von Gruff]

I am glad I no longer use filler but that is for other reasons. I hadn't heard of the ringing the chamber with an air space over the filler as that is how I always loaded them. Is this with greatly reduced loads and slower powders or is there some other formula that seems to be the culprit. I was loading 28gn 3031 and a dacron wad in a previous 7x57 for 1000's of rounds with no trouble. New 7x57 is loaded differently with 39gn H4350 and no wad for 2415fps or reduced load of 11.5gn Red dot for 1500fps again with no wad. My 404 gets 63gn H4350 or 87gn of same for 1900 or 2365fps so again no issue with wads. Dont load with wads now as loading requirements are different but would apreciate knowing the reasons for this phenomenum.

Von Gruff.

[Char-Gar]

As others have mentioned fillers themselves are not a problem. But wads are a problem, if there is air between the wad and the base of the bullet. The wad becomes a piston that compresses the air between it and the base of the bullet. At times, the results is a ringed chamber like the pics in this thread.

The ongoing fight is whether or not dacron or a smiliar substance contain enough air, so they can compress and act like a wad. I don't have the answer to that one and take no sides. But, when I use a filler, it is lightly compressed shotshell buffer. No dead air space in this stuff and no chance it will act like a wad.

[StarMetal]

As others have mentioned fillers themselves are not a problem. But wads are a problem, if there is air between the wad and the base of the bullet. The wad becomes a piston that compresses the air between it and the base of the bullet. At times, the results is a ringed chamber like the pics in this thread.

The ongoing fight is whether or not dacron or a smiliar substance contain enough air, so they can compress and act like a wad. I don't have the answer to that one and take no sides. But, when I use a filler, it is lightly compressed shotshell buffer. No dead air space in this stuff and no chance it will act like a wad.

There is no doubt Dacron and other similar fillers contain air space, but not enough to cause ringing. You have to have, in my opinion, an actual air space void of filler to be compressed. When you compress air you increase it's pressure dramatically and at the same time create heat. This is energy. If there was enough air in the Dacron to compress it to create heat, then the Dacron itself would become a fuel. Think how the diesel engine works here. If that occurrence could happen or if I am correct...we certain would have a disaster. At any rate in a diesel engine the amount of compression is controlled by the piston stroke, piston surface area, etc.. With a wad nothing controls the compression of the air in that space between it and the bullet base. Something has to give and it's two things the brass/chamber wall and the bullet begins to move.

Been shooting fillers for far too many years to have someone or a bunch of someones who didn't know how to use it right ruin it's use and reputation. I've never ever had any problems of any kind with fillers. Those who don't wish to use them are free to choose that route, but there is a whole other avenue their use opens to useful shooting that they will miss out on. For those who chose that please don't say you won't be missing out on ringed chambers, etc.....because so do the filler users that know how to use it correctly.

[JesterGrin_1]

StarMetal it seems as if one was to use a filler it should be the Dacron type or the Shotgun type of fillers and not use the cardboard wad or others like it unless it is against the base of the Bullet?

I have never used a filler of any type but that is how it was explained to me.

Or I will put it another way. A card type of wad is for helping to protect the base of a bullet from deformation and gas cutting and should be against the base of the bullet when loaded.

And that a filler such as Dacron is used to take up space and to help keep the powder where it belongs.

[StarMetal]

StarMetal it seems as if one was to use a filler it should be the Dacron type or the Shotgun type of fillers and not use the cardboard wad or others like it unless it is against the base of the Bullet?

I have never used a filler of any type but that is how it was explained to me.

Or I will put it another way. A card type of wad is for helping to protect the base of a bullet from deformation and gas cutting and should be against the base of the bullet when loaded.

And that a filler such as Dacron is used to take up space and to help keep the powder where it belongs.

Jester,

That sounds reasonable to me. I think of filler as "filler, a material substance to occupy the entire air space between the powder and the bullet base". Primary purpose to keep the powder positioned against the flash hole. Now shot buffers, such as some of us are using in for example the HV 6.5 Swede loads also serves other purposes. Shock absorption of the powder pressure against the bullet, heat barrier of the hot gases against the bullet, reduce the powder capacity of the cartridge, scour the bore to head remove any lead deposits that might occur, and of course the ones we are talking about that Dacron serves.

[Von Gruff]

Thanks guys, that has answered my question. The difference between a wad and a filler seems to be the deciding factor, with the filler,ie dacron, holding the powder against the primer flash but not sealing the cartridge walls in that the air between the filler and the bullet base is able to flow arround the filler rather than being compressed in front of a tighter fitting wad.

Von Gruff.

[hiram]

it was a reduced load of 13 gns unique under a pressed in fiber wad (used for black powder pistols) using a 300 gn cast boolit.

[StarMetal]

it was a reduced load of 13 gns unique under a pressed in fiber wad (used for black powder pistols) using a 300 gn cast boolit.



.....once again, that's what I suspected and that's exactly what done it. Marlin may not warranty the rifle. They know how those things happen.

[The Double D]

Cadillo :
Your comment ,,,,
" I will not attempt it for that reason. "

I'm with you ! !

Ben


From what I have read, ringing is a fairly common occurance when using dacron or other fiber fillers to aid with reduced loads. I will not attempt it for that reason.

Ben & Cadillo there is a difference between a filler and a wad. It's always wise if you don't know the difference, not to try something until you learn.

[wistlepig1]

StarMetal,
I don't use fillers but would like to made sure that I understand this (thick headed).
The "wade" with the air space between it and the base of the bullit is what causes the problem? Other fillers like Dac.,shotshell filler and I think I have even heard of cornmeal cann't seal, so NO problem. Do I have that right, don't want to make that mistake sometime in the future. Thanks for info

[Cadillo]

Ben & Cadillo there is a difference between a filler and a wad. It's always wise if you don't know the difference, not to try something until you learn.

Please read the OP's original post. He said:

"My friend has a ss Marlin in cal 450 Marlin. He ringed the chamber and then asked me about it. He never knew about such a thing. "

Please read that and tell me where he mentioned either a filler or a wad. Then read the posts between that one and my reply and tell me where you saw a mention of the word "wad".

I'm sure that there are people who use wads and or fillers of kapok, dacron etc, who have not had problems, but not everyone. Read post #3 in this thread. That person clearly stated that he put a ring in his chamber with a load containing a dacron filler. That is the statement to which I referred in my reply.

My old Speer manual refers to using dacron fiber for this purpose, but warns that there have been instances of chamber ringing as a result. I didn't just dream this stuff up. Speer says it can happen, and the third guy to post in this thread said that it happened to him. I happen to believe both of them. A far as your use of fiber, wads or whatever you like in your loads, have at it.

It's not kind to put words into the mouths of others. Sometimes they will even call you on it.

[Cadillo]

That's your opinion Cadillo. It's not a common occurrence. It may be a common occurrence among filler users that use them improperly....that is like tamping them down over top the powder and leaving an airspace between them and the bullet base. There are many many here among us Castboolit member, respected and knowledgeable members I may add, that have been using fillers for not just years, but decades with nary a bad occurrence, simply because they use it correctly. Pack Dacron or Kapok into a wad over your powder leaving an airspace between it and the bullet base, or putting a cardboard wad over to the powder in the same manner is inviting disaster.

Gee! Thanks for reminding me that I have expressed my own opinion. I'm glad that you and the other "respected and knowledgeable members who have been doing this for years and even decades" without ill effect are having success, and hope that you continue to load and shoot safely.

Unfortuantely not everyone has shared your level of success in this endeavor, as told by the third person to post in this thread. In my book, one damaged gun is enough to persuade me. Yes, I'm sure that you and others experienced in the particulars of this technique could probably tell us all what had been done wrong and how it could have been avoided, but happen it did, which just bolsters "My Opinion".

"Humans are not unique in their ability to learn from the experiences of others, rather the unique part is choosing not to."

[JIMinPHX]

I'm a little fuzzy on something here. How is an airspace above a filler wad more dangerous than the airspace above a small powder charge with no filler? Am I missing something?

I don't know jack about using filler wads. I've never done it before. Please pardon me if this is a stupid question.

[Matt_G]

Read post #3 in this thread. That person clearly stated that he put a ring in his chamber with a load containing a dacron filler. That is the statement to which I referred in my reply.

Let my further clarify my earlier post. Yes, I did ring a chamber using a Dacron filler. However, the reason for it was my own stupidity. As I said in that post I'm 99% sure I "tamped" the Dacron down onto the powder. With it packed down like that it would act as a wad. Furthermore, there would have been quite a bit of air space between this "wad" of Dacron and the base of the boolit. I had shot many hundreds of rounds using Dacron as a filler before this and never had a problem till that one time.
Now that I know what causes this, I feel comfortable going back to using Dacron as a filler when the need arises.

[Matt_G]

I'm a little fuzzy on something here. How is an airspace above a filler wad more dangerous than the airspace above a small powder charge with no filler? Am I missing something?

I don't know jack about using filler wads. I've never done it before. Please pardon me if this is a stupid question.

Jim, you've been here long enough to know that there are no stupid questions. However, there are stupid answers. Hopefully this isn't one of them. :lol:

Say we have a wad present in the case, down on top of the powder, with airspace between the wad and the base of the boolit.
Once the powder ignites that wad is going to act like a piston and compress the air between it and the base of the boolit.
I can see this setting up a shockwave so to speak, which can then ring the chamber as it hits the base of the boolit. (pressure building up faster on the powder side of the wad than it does on the airspace side)
I believe the boolit just doesn't start moving forward fast enough to alleviate the situation.
Without a wad in the case, obviously you won't have that piston effect. Pressure would build up in the case uniformly.
Now take everything I just said with a grain of salt. It's just my opinion and is based solely on how I envision the mechanics of this working when the case is fired.

[The Double D]

Please read the OP's original post. He said:

"My friend has a ss Marlin in cal 450 Marlin. He ringed the chamber and then asked me about it. He never knew about such a thing. "

Please read that and tell me where he mentioned either a filler or a wad. Then read the posts between that one and my reply and tell me where you saw a mention of the word "wad".

I'm sure that there are people who use wads and or fillers of kapok, dacron etc, who have not had problems, but not everyone. Read post #3 in this thread. That person clearly stated that he put a ring in his chamber with a load containing a dacron filler. That is the statement to which I referred in my reply.

My old Speer manual refers to using dacron fiber for this purpose, but warns that there have been instances of chamber ringing as a result. I didn't just dream this stuff up. Speer says it can happen, and the third guy to post in this thread said that it happened to him. I happen to believe both of them. A far as your use of fiber, wads or whatever you like in your loads, have at it.

It's not kind to put words into the mouths of others. Sometimes they will even call you on it.

Your are right he didn't say, but you did you and the poster in number three says he used one grain and thinks it he packed it down into wad.

You very clearly don't understand the difference between wad and filler, you are using the term interchangeably in your post and they are not. They are two different things all together.

To say ringing can be caused by use of a wad of Dacron is correct. Charlie Dell proved that rather well.

To say chamber ringing can occur when dacron is used a a filler is nothing more than spreading a wives tale.

Take the time to learn the difference. Suggest you read the work of Ross Seyfried, Charlie Dell and Greame Wright. They will help you understand the difference. Good reads which I am sure you will enjoy.

Wads leave an airspace between wad and bullet. Fillers fill all the air like powder and lead.

[JohnH]

Pistol powders like Unique, Green Dot, Red Dot, 2400 don't need fillers. Been shooten' such loads for 30 years no problems. As I see it, fillers like Dacron or Kapok help with powders like 3031, 4895 as they keep the powder charge in a uniform shape in the case which supports a uniform flame migration through the charge. A half full case of those powders strawn loosly in the case will simply not ignite uniformly enough to produce uniform groups. Pistol powders ignite readily and build pressures rapidly, which in itself supports the burn, and it is this that makes getting good groups with pistol powders an easy task. Pistol powders just won't produce the higher velocities some shooters want as pressures peak to quickly.

13 grains of Unique with a 300 grian boolit in the 450 Marlin should give circa 1150-1200 fps. It would make a nice plinking load, and as a hunting load would compare more than favorably to a 44 Magnum revolver using 300 grain boolits. No filler would be required.

[The Double D]

I'm a little fuzzy on something here. How is an airspace above a filler wad more dangerous than the airspace above a small powder charge with no filler? Am I missing something?

I don't know jack about using filler wads. I've never done it before. Please pardon me if this is a stupid question.

Jim,

The wad was used to hold the powder up in front of the primer flash hole to avoid flash over. When the wad was seated tight against the powder the wad acted like a piston and caused a ring in the area of the bullet base. Charlie Dell in his book Shooting the modern Schuetzen Rifle did some experiments with a rifle that had a brass chamber. He was able to ring the chamber with the first shot. Dells work wasn't to ring chambers, but to learn how ringing occurred and how to avoid the problem. Dell discovered that if the wad was placed about .200 off the powder, the charged slump slightly, but was still in front of the flash hole and ringing did not occur.

Fillers and wads are not the same thing.

Fillers full-there is no air space using fillers.

Wads are thin and leave air space. If the wad is at the base of the bullet, it protects the bullet base. But nothing is holding the powder charge in a column, the charge is slumped. Ringing has not been reported in this use.

If the wad is place against the powder leaving an air space between wad and bullet then ringing can and does occur.

It's all in the semantics. If some one calls a magazine a clip or a cartridge a bullet then we all would bristle and le tthe person know the difference. It's the same with fillers and wads. Fillers are not wads. Wads can be fillers when they are used to remove all the airspace.

[StarMetal]

Please read the OP's original post. He said:

"My friend has a ss Marlin in cal 450 Marlin. He ringed the chamber and then asked me about it. He never knew about such a thing. "

Please read that and tell me where he mentioned either a filler or a wad. Then read the posts between that one and my reply and tell me where you saw a mention of the word "wad". He said this " I'm not sure what caused my ringed chamber. My gut tells me I accidentally packed the Dacron down onto the powder before seating the bullet.

I'm sure that there are people who use wads and or fillers of kapok, dacron etc, who have not had problems, but not everyone. Read post #3 in this thread. That person clearly stated that he put a ring in his chamber with a load containing a dacron filler. That is the statement to which I referred in my reply.

My old Speer manual refers to using dacron fiber for this purpose, but warns that there have been instances of chamber ringing as a result. I didn't just dream this stuff up. Speer says it can happen, and the third guy to post in this thread said that it happened to him. I happen to believe both of them. A far as your use of fiber, wads or whatever you like in your loads, have at it.

It's not kind to put words into the mouths of others. Sometimes they will even call you on it.

That , sir, is then a wad. The fact is NOBODY will ever know what that fellow did. If he himself typed that he thinks he packed the Dacron down, more then likely he did. You just can't get a ringed chamber from Dacron used the right way.

[Larry Gibson]

I am one that strongly recommends the use of a dacron filler for many loads. However, like anything we do in reloading it must be used correctly with the correct components. There is a distinct difference between a wad and a filler. Both hiram, original poster, and Matt G have clearly stated that a wad was used. There in lies the problem, a wad was used. If you think "fillers" are dangerous then consider the shotgun shell; even though refered to as a "wad" the "wad" is actually a filler. In older shells there was an "over the powder" wad with a fiber filler column over it to take up thespace between the powder and shot. There are bajillions of shotshells fired each year without a single mishap. The "filler" works fine when used correctly.

In hiram's example of the friends Marlin three classic mistakes were made; the use of a wad, the use of a fast burning powder and a large airspace between the wad and the bullet.

In Matt Gs example two classic mistakes were made; a wad was used and there was a large air space between it and the base of the bullet.

I have always recommended the use of a dacron filler in certain loads simply because it is most often very benificial to ignition consistency with many bullet/powder combinations. The filler also will provide ignition consistency with slower powders while keeping the velocity at a level where best accuracy isusually found. I do not advocate the use of a wad with such loads. The only time I will use a wad is with compressed BP loads and then it is a very thin wad used only to protect the base of the bullet.

In the last 2 years I have pressure tested several thousand rounds of various cartridges with dacron fillers and a couple hundred testing various other fillers. This was with powders as slow as RL22 and as fast as 2400. With the dacron filler weter the amount was minimal as a filler or even when a larger amount of dacron was compressed in as a filler there was not a single instance of pressure spiking. Again, there was not one single instance of preassure spiking or any abnormality in pressure observed.

The use of a dacron filler is useful and safe IF it is used correctly. In the above two instances it was the use of a wad that caused the ringing not a filler.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

I'm a little fuzzy on something here. How is an airspace above a filler wad more dangerous than the airspace above a small powder charge with no filler? Am I missing something?

I don't know jack about using filler wads. I've never done it before. Please pardon me if this is a stupid question.

Jim easy. The reason the airspace above the small powder charge is different then with a filler, or to be more specific, a wad/card over the powder is that there is no PISTON. There is no compression of that air in the air space. Powder gases saturate the air space, whereas a piston compresses it. Now the Dacron, when used correctly, also sort of saturates the air because of it's porosity. Cream of wheat leaves no air space and nor does buffer theoretically.

[PatMarlin]

Wonder where in the world the guy got the idea of wadding a fast powder in a cavernous case in the first place...?

I think this is why BP muzzle loaders stress not to leave any air space. I shoot a lot of reduced loads and never tried dacron as yet, but as with anything else you got to study and learn about doing something correctly. Never understood someone trying something like this with no understanding of the proceedure... :shock:

[StarMetal]

Wonder where in the world the guy got the idea of wadding a fast powder in a cavernous case in the first place...?

I think this is why BP muzzle loaders stress not to leave any air space. I shoot a lot of reduced loads and never tried dacron as yet, but as with anything else you got to study and learn about doing something correctly. Never understood someone trying something like this with no understanding of the proceedure... :shock:

You got it Pat. Hey if your loads shoot good without a filler, why use one?

[Firebird]

StarMetal,
I don't use fillers but would like to made sure that I understand this (thick headed).
The "wade" with the air space between it and the base of the bullit is what causes the problem? Other fillers like Dac.,shotshell filler and I think I have even heard of cornmeal cann't seal, so NO problem. Do I have that right, don't want to make that mistake sometime in the future. Thanks for info

It's not that a filler can't seal, it's that a filler should completely fill the space between the bullet base and the powder. A completely filled space means NO air space, so no compression of that air space can happen.
On the negative side, if you don't use enough dacron filler to fill the cartridge case completely and pack the dacron you do use down against the powder, you create a wad instead of a filler - i.e. there is an object that can act like a piston (the tamped down dacron filler) sitting on top of the powder and an air space above this object, then you can ring your chamber. It's the momentum of the object acting as a piston that can cause the pressure of the compressed air to exceed the pressure of the burning powder that is moving that object. It's this high air pressure that rings the chamber.

[wistlepig1]

Firebird,
Thanks for the info, I think I understand now. "Packing" the Dacron fillers turns it into a wade, and the space between the "wade" causes the pressure spike and ringing.

[JIMinPHX]

OK,
I think I get it now. The load was dangerous before the Dacron was added. Because the filler was not used properly, it didn't mitigate the danger. That makes sense. Thanks for the replies to my question.

[Char-Gar]

Cadillo... Where is "deepest" South Texas?

[Cadillo]

Cadillo... Where is "deepest" South Texas?

RGV, Hidalgo, County.

[44man]

I use Dacron all the time in my 45-70 revolver, just a tuft pushed in with a pencil eraser but enough left for over half the boolit to push down. Much better accuracy.
But we have never found a need for any card or plastic wad in the BPCR. Tried all kinds of stuff and the only thing they are good for is to take up room between a smaller powder charge and the boolit base. We shoot too many bare base boolits right on the powder with the exact same results. If lube leakage is a problem even wax paper will work.
I don't believe in the boolit base protection stuff. The wads are fillers to take up space depending on the charge.
As Joe said, NO AIR SPACE or a card wad that can fall away from the boolit. Most cases have a taper and a loose wad behind the boolit can fall into the case.

[geargnasher]

Nice to see valid info on the filler subject, I'm so tired of seeing posts made out of supersitious fear and ignorance instead of well-researched and well-tested experience. If I had a dollar for every person at the range that freaked out and moved down a bench or two when I explained I was using Dacron or BPI in a bottle neck cartridge I could buy you all a beer. Another myth busted by the Castboolits crew!

Gear

[Cadillo]

That , sir, is then a wad. The fact is NOBODY will ever know what that fellow did. If he himself typed that he thinks he packed the Dacron down, more then likely he did. You just can't get a ringed chamber from Dacron used the right way.

Regardless of exactly what went wrong, something other than powder and bullet was placed in the cartridge case, and his chamber was negatively affected.

So he said that he packed Dacron down into the case and you state that as this meets your definition of a wad, you can therefore say that he said "wad", instead of what he really did say. I like how you just make this stuff up as you go along.

This whole thing got started because I said that due to reports of chamber ringing due to the use of dacron, or other fillers in cartridge cases, that I would not do it. Then because I don't agree with those who do so, someone got a hair stretched tight across his mud whistle, and then proceeded to say that I had said things I had not in fact said.

I did not and do not try to persuade anyone who is successfully using fillers, wads, or anythging else to fill their cartridge cases to cease doing so. I simply said that I would not do it. As an analogy, I know people who are skydivers, and as they are still living, are by definition successful at doing so, I don't try to talk them out of it, but I would never jump ouy of a viable aircraft, nor do I recommend it to the uninitiated.

I just hope that the less experienced loaders, who might follow you down the primrose path on this issue are as successful with it as you apparently have been, and that all of you remain safe.

"Anger is a wind which blows out the lamp of the mind."
Robert Ingersoll

[The Double D]

This whole thing got started because I said that due to reports of chamber ringing due to the use of dacron, or other fillers in cartridge cases, that I would not do it.


And said it again. If you had said people used dacron and fillers as wads, and get ringing all of us would agree with you.

Instead you repeat the myth saying " reports of chamber ringing due to the use of dacron, or other fillers in cartridge" and that is untrue. It a situation where you obviously lack experience and knowledge in the area and you are passing on incomplete and incorrect information as fact. You obviously do not under stand the difference between a wad and filler. If you did you would choose your words more carefully.

This has nothing to do with the original problem reported. It has to do with your unfounded claim.

I sorry to make this personal, but your stance makes impossible to do other wise.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I have used fillers for over a decade at least, in bottelneck cases , with no problem. I shoot a least 1,000, rounds of rifle a summer. no prob.
Just read the 1st page of this thread. But +'s are clean bore, using less powder to achieve a set vel., protection of bullet (even helps W/ GC bullets).
Have another hint cerial fillers work well BUT THEY MUST BE VERY DRY, so oven heat for abuot 1 hr. cool & load. If some already said this , sorry

[mpmarty]

Well I'm lazy. Putting dacron or sheep hair in a case before seating and crimping is just another task which I avoid. I'm sure this has been chewed fine enough to swallow but I don't need or want any fillers. I use wads in my 12ga, over powder cups and felt filler wads as well as shot cups and that's the extent of my meager knowledge.

[edctexas]

I looked back at my old shooting notes. back in 1991 I tried cutting boolit base protector wads from thin pieces of foam (I used stuff like meat trays and egg cartons). This piece of plastic was glued onto the boolit base to prevent this ringing. In experimenting with different glues, I ran into one that did not work and let the wad fall down on to the powder. I was lucky, no ringing but the case was hard to extract. The primer was also flattened. I fired three rounds like this. I pulled the boolits from that batch and removed the wads. Then I reseated the boolit. No primer flattening was noticed.
I think that the reason behind the wad experiment was a belief that some of the leading could be reduced if the boolit base was protected by ablation. It was the stupid idea that something less than a gas check might work for higher velocities. I was lucky! If you use fillers or wads, use them correctly. BTW: 44Mag load used was 17.5 gr of 2400 pushing a lubed 250gr SWC.

Ed C

[Multigunner]

Only thing I've ever put in the case othyer than powder was a single layer of cigarette paper over a light charge of Bullseye when making target loads for my 6" .38 Special.
I always carried these to the range in a box with base down so no powder would migrate past the paper barrier.
It seemed to work very well, I got mostly single hole groups at 25 yards.
I figure the primer blast alone would have shredded the paper and the powder charge burned it up, and I never saw any traces of burnt paper anywhere after firing.