Paper patched in a marlin microgroove?

[scrapcan]

All,

I recently bought a copy of Paul Matthews book, The Paper Jacket and was reading and thinking. I then got out some of the other books and article I have on paper patching for smokeless firearms.

I was wondering if all of those who have had fits using cast and lubed bullets could benefit from using a paper patched slug.

I do not have a microgroove to try it in. I have used paper patched in 38-55 and had good success. I am going to try it in the 98/22 8X57 that I have when I get time.

Anyway I will be intersted to hear what you all have to say. And it is not a technical casting post so all should have something to shed some interest to the rest of us.

thanks in advance.

[45 2.1]

It works great, I was doing it before Paul Matthews came out with his book on it. You can make a very accurate express load for the Marlins doing that.

[BrushBuster]

I too am very interested in this subject. I'm another Marlin Micro-groove shooter that is wading through the complexities of shooting cast boolits with this type of rifling.

I've recently been exploring the use of softer lead for hunting, and my results are definately indicating that I must increase boolit diameter to develop an effective hunting boolit. My next casting session will be applying the "Beagleing" process of increasing diameter, but if paper patching will work, it sounds like a fun process that just might be a simple fix.

Thanks manleyjt for bringing this topic up. Brother 45 2.1, the benefit of your experience would be much appreciated. I hope this post takes off.

Does paper patching work on conventionally shaped cast boolits, and what might be the better of these two methods for getting these boolits beefed up to handle lead the way we want them to? I have shot and hunted with the micro-groove since 1957 and it always performed well with jacketed bullets. It was only when getting into casting that I found I had a maverick to tame!:confused:

[45 2.1]

BrushBuster-
Here is how I load my PP for the Marlin '95s. Lyman 457191 cast of pure lead. Size in LEE push thru die to 0.454". Patch with two wraps of 9 lb. onionskin 25% rag content paper. Patched diameter will be about 0.461". Lube patched area with Matthews patch lube out of book. Have your 4570 cases neck sized so that they are about 0.459" I.D. and trimmed to same length. Bell case and make sure everything is smooth so the patched boolit goes in past the bottom band. Seat to top lube groove and crimp lightly into top lube groove. Don't cut the patch!!!! At this length the cartridge will chamber and snug/engrave lightly into the rifling which is what you want. I use SR 4759, the reduced load Dupont powder, at the top Lyman 45 manual charge weight for that boolit in the trapdoor section with a Rem large rifle primer. this load goes about 1500 fps and will turn inside out to form a little cup at close range and expand past 300 yds. This is a good deer load or for most anything it hits. If you are going to hunt bigger game, go up in boolit weight as the 300 gr. boolit will expand too much in bigger game and destroy itself.

[Maven]

Problems with cast bullets in Microgroove rifling, I'm shocked! Shocked I tell you! I'm inclined to believe it's a problem of bbl. quality, bullet fit, pressure/velocity v. alloy used more than rifling type. Moreover, I've fired my MG-rifled .45-70 alongside a Ballard rifled one (same loads) and saw no difference at all. I've also tried paper-patched CB's (Lee 405gr. FP) and found them to be as accurate as the unpatched, grease-grooved ones. It is labor intensive, but it does allow you to use unalloyed/soft Pb without leaving a [Pb] fouled bore. Bullet expansion and weight retention will be just the ticket for hunting.

[Four Fingers of Death]

There was a great article on Beartooth bullets about the 444. I'm at the library and the computers have just started going slow, so I am unable to provide a link, Mick.

[twotrees]

I have shot water chilled Keith 240 gr PB bullets (Lyman Mold and RCBSmold) in a 44 Marlin. (Lyman #2 Alloy) Two different women killed their first deer with this load. The first ones I tried were to long to cycle thru the action, so I just crimped them on the nose of the bullet.

I guess I was just too dumb to know that good cast bullets wouldn't shoot in Micro- groove bbls.

Good Shooting,

TwoTrees

[mag_01]

:coffee: Have never experienced trouble with my Marlin 336 micro grove --30-30 I use a Lee 160 gr. boolit that comes out of the mold about .310 and run it thru my lubriciser with a .311 die so gas check is .311 and bollit shows no sizing marks and is about .310 dia.---put 21.5 Gr's of AA5744--proves to be a good load that is not a wimp by any means and safe to use.---:castmine:

[BrushBuster]

Please, lets not debate about micro-groove barrels being any good. They are good, and as I previously mentioned, I have been shooting one for almost fifty years! That issue has been hacked on ad nauseum.

I'd just like to learn how to increase boolit diameter, because after having proven through testing a number alloys, hardness levels and charge variations, I know this is my next step. My mold won't provide me with the .002-4 diameter increase that I think I need to make a difference. The thought of ordering a custom mold has entered my mind, but what if there's a simpler (and cheaper) way of getting there.

In my case, I'm working with the relatively short .35 Remington 200 grain boolit; perhaps more of a Paper Patching challenge than a 45-70, but the principals are the same. And then there's Beagling and possibly lapping out my existing mold (that option spooks me).

It's not a question of they type of rifling, its about getting accuracy from what you've got to work with. I'd like to discuss the options, and hear from those that have been there and what they did to work around it. :-D

[scrapcan]

Brush Buster has this right. This is not a debate of the quality of microgroove barrels. What I wanted to know is if people have had experience with paper patched bulltes in a shallow rifling. And what better modern day firearm has shallow rifling?

Anyway. As stated earlier I have used paper patched in a win94 in 38-55 with smokeless powder and had good success. I used light pistol bullets and the more normal heavier slugs for rifles.

While reading "The Paper Jacket" I was intensely interested (for what reason I do not know, I don't even own a firearm with what I would call shallow rifling) in the experience of others.

I pulled out some of the old books and articles on antique military and blackpowder arms and found it interesting that most of the references talked about shallow rifling (and large variation in land and groove diameter).

So in light of most commercial moulds throwing smaller than ideal diameters, I thought I would throw ou the hook and bait and see what I could reel in. Knowing full well that the trash fish in the lot would be the microgroove debate. Well just like fishing, throw the trash fish out for the buzzards and collect the good ones and take them home.

Anybody have experience with using paper patched in odd ball calibers? Just curious is all.

[45 2.1]

Anybody have experience with using paper patched in odd ball calibers? Just curious is all.

Yes, quite a few of them, some of them are obscure. I've even shot deer with paper patched handgun boolits. In general you want a mid to heavy weight boolit for the caliber, cast it of very soft alloy and procure a LEE push thru sizing die to reduce the as-cast diameter of the boolit to about the bore diameter of the barrel. Patch it up with two wraps of 9 lb. onionskin (0.002" thick paper) to throat or about 0.0005" under throat diameter. This will vary according to the barrels dimensions, so get the throat diameter and work backwards to get the correct materials and components you want to use. You must seat the patched boolit into the rifling/throat. It will not tolerate much of a jump into the rifling. Test seating depth by chambering a sample round and see if the rifling dirties or contacts the patch (it should be OBVIOUS).

[scrapcan]

45 2.1-

Thanks for the information, this is an interesting topic.

Do you have any experience in using more than 2 wraps? Use of other paper than onionskin?

I ask due to the fact that some of the more obscure calibers may not have a mould readily available or one that is close enough. By paper patching a person may be able to get an old arm shooting until one may be procured by using something close but not as close as you may like.

With the 38-55 mentioned earlier, I tried several different 25% cotton bond papers until I found one that w/ 2 wraps would give a little over the diameter that I was looking for and then I did as you suggest and use a sizer die to get right on.

[Castaway]

For my 45-70, I use 15 lb, college ruled paper. Works well for me and the lines help when cutting the patch. Bullet casts at 0.452 and patches to 0.459. Don't have to run it through sizer afterwards saving a step from my old process.

[Wayne Smith]

Interesting debate. Some of the best groups ever shot were shot with paper patched slugs out of Pope rifled muzzle loaders, using a cruciform patch loaded through a false muzzle. Very shallow rifling, perhaps even less than microgroove. I don't know the actual measurements of either.

This is from The Muzzleloading Caplock Rifle by Ned Roberts.

[BrushBuster]

Living where I do, I'm not able to purchase the proper paper and glue to make a real PP boolit at this point. So after talking things over with my shooting buddy, he suggested that I try wrapping with teflon tape to see if this provided any improvement. Being anxious to get my cast loads ready for hunting season what did I have to lose by trying?

I took a lot of care in cleaning and wrapping the soft (BHN-10) boolits I had on hand. I just wrapped them once, covering from the gas-check to just beyond the crimp groove on the RCBS 35-200 boolit. I applied a little heat to the wrapped boolits and pressed the tape into the grooves. I expanded the case necks as much as I could by opening them up with the expander plug on my sizing die, and then flared the neck mouth enough to accept the bullet base. I brushed out the necks internally and then greased the boolit bases with sizing lube. All amateur stuff, but I had fun.

I have a small crude range up behind my remote location about a mile, and I headed there this morning with my teflon patched and unpatched loads.
The shooting results were very gratifying, and I feel that I confirmed I was on the right track. I needed greater purchase by those 16 lands in my micro-groove and this method crude as it was worked!

My shooting accuracy is determined by the rough method I have to shoot from; a standing position with the rifle steadied on a spike driven into a large tree. Nevertheless, the teflon wrapped boolits shot well, and put an end to the flyers I was getting previously. I was shooting 40 grains of H4895 and this cranks out 2000 fps. so I wasn't playing around. After firing 20 rounds, I had several targets with 2" groups at 50 yards and with iron sights.

I then switched back to the same boolit and load but without a wrapping with Teflon tape. The result was that the flyers were back immediately, and I just couldn't call a shot accurately. Some shots were almost off the paper! Exactly what I encountered with my initial efforts.

I'm setting up tonight for a pour tomorrow morning with my mold Beagled! I have a Lee .360 sizer, and my goal is to run a .362 dia. boolit through it. This will give me a couple of thou over what I normally crank out, and with any luck I'll have that Marlin tamed. :Fire:

[45 2.1]

45 2.1-

Thanks for the information, this is an interesting topic.

Do you have any experience in using more than 2 wraps? Use of other paper than onionskin?

I ask due to the fact that some of the more obscure calibers may not have a mould readily available or one that is close enough. By paper patching a person may be able to get an old arm shooting until one may be procured by using something close but not as close as you may like.

With the 38-55 mentioned earlier, I tried several different 25% cotton bond papers until I found one that w/ 2 wraps would give a little over the diameter that I was looking for and then I did as you suggest and use a sizer die to get right on.

I have used several different papers as well as one, two, three and four wraps. You can actually shoot very hard boolits and jacketed patched up this way. The paper needs something to grip, either lube grooves or a roughened surface. One item with the paper, it needs to be such that it will "wet" so it wraps and shrink dries on the boolit. You will see other items used insteed of paper, like teflon tape, masking tape, tin foil, cigarete paper etc. Any of these will work providing you get the dimensions fairly close to correct. Try to stay away from the erasable bond papers as they do not want to "wet" and stay on a boolit very well. Take a micrometer with you when your buying or trying paper to get the thickness you want.

[loophole]

I paper patched a lot of 45-70 boolits years ago when I had one of the first C. sharpes rifles with very shallow rifling. Later, I confirmed some of my conclusions when I shot PP in my .44 mag browning lowwall (my mini buffalo gun) and a mod94 Marlin in .44 mag(micro groove rifling). Here are some thoughts:
Read the PP info in the old NRA cast bullet manual, if you can find it. Most of the NRA findings work in the 45-70.
You can use almost any 45-70 boolit to paperpatch. I like to cast them 4ww/1pb, but they seem to work real well much softer--just enough tin to get a good casting. If your mold casts a .460" slug, wrap it with two wraps of 9 lb high cotton content paper applied wet (it will shrink as it dries). Rub on some liquid alox and allow to dry, or spray with liquid teflon or other lube of your choice, then run through a bullet size die .459 or .460. The bullet will go through the size die without hurting the paper patch.
The patch should end where the bullet touches the lands, plus about .05 to .10". the old lyman 500 rn works very well with paper just over the grooves section, or you can patch it out further and seat it deeper. The rifling should just begin to engage the patch when the round is chambered.
The patched bullet can be smaller than groove dia if it is cast soft and loaded over a fairly fast powder--black powder will kick bore dia boolits up to groove dia and they shoot very well if everything else is done right.
The ideal PP boolit for a 45-70 probably would be a cast about .448 and wrapped with a couple of layers of 16 lb bond paper, which, if I remember correctly, will give you a slug about .460 without sizing, but the larger dia boolit with thinner paper works well.
I've gotten passable groups with the .44 mag using the 310 gr Lee bollit, patched with 9 lb bond and sized 430 in the Lyman sizer. Likewise the 240 gr lyman gc bullet can be patched and sized to work in the Browning. I've gotten some very good groups (1" at 50 yds) from my Marlin with the patched and sized Lee boolit and about 8.5 grs unique.
A friend who collects Sharpes tells me that the early guns designed for PP bullets had very shallow rifling. I think the Marlin micro-groove rifling is a lot like the early Sharps, and if one has the patience to experiment, I bet PP will shoot extremely well in the Marlin.

[BrushBuster]

This thread is primarily about paper patched boolits, so I'm going to just quickly mention that I have just recently had great success with "Beagling" or enlarging the cast boolit by installing aluminum tape spacer strips between the mold halves. I was able to enlarge the .35 Rem. casting from .358 to .365 and then size down to .360 with my Lee push-thru die, thus providing a full .002" increase over my RCBS 35-200 mold. This ended my difficulty in combining accuracy with soft lead for hunting loads in the Marlin Micro-groove bbl. The improvement was very pronounced and I am now able to shoot all degrees of boolit hardness with precision.

Thanks Beagle (John) for a great solution :drinks: