I want a HV boolit shooter

[Marlin Junky]

I've got a Ruger stainless M77 in .358 Winchester and would like to rebarrel it to something that'll impress the varmints and predators in N. WY. I do want a lot of speed and naturally 1MOA or better for five rounds. Looks like there's a better assortment of barrel twists out there in .30 cal and I've pretty much decided to go with something slower than 1:12" (assuming I go with a .30). I've also noticed that .30TC brass is becoming available through Hornady. Any opinions on the design of the .30TC? I'm not actually tied to the .30 bore and was considering a 7mm-08 but can't find a barrel manufacturer that'll provide a slow twist 7mm. I like the 7x57 case better than the 7mm-08 but since the former tappers more than the .358W, I don't want to create feeding issues... I want the ability for a fast second or even a third shot.

MJ

P.S. HV to me means more than 2300 fps 'cause I can do that with a 336 in 30-30... just not consistently at 1MOA though.

[StarMetal]

I've got a Ruger stainless M77 in .358 Winchester and would like to rebarrel it to something that'll impress the varmints and predators in N. WY. I do want a lot of speed and naturally 1MOA or better for five rounds. Looks like there's a better assortment of barrel twists out there in .30 cal and I've pretty much decided to go with something slower than 1:12" (assuming I go with a .30). I've also noticed that .30TC brass is becoming available through Hornady. Any opinions on the design of the .30TC? I'm not actually tied to the .30 bore and was considering a 7mm-08 but can't find a barrel manufacturer that'll provide a slow twist 7mm. I like the 7x57 case better than the 7mm-08 but since the former tappers more than the .358W, I don't want to create feeding issues... I want the ability for a fast second or even a third shot.

MJ

P.S. HV to me means more than 2300 fps 'cause I can do that with a 336 in 30-30... just not consistently at 1MOA though.

Lothar Walter makes a 7mm barrel in 9, 10, and 12 twist. They will chamber your choice to most 7mm calibers.

[Marlin Junky]

I had no idea they were in GA. What can you tell me about their barrels, StarMetal?

[Von Gruff]

If you can get the 7x57 to do what I have in mine you should be well pleased. I run a 160gn Lyman 287641 GC bullet in lino cause I have lots of it and over 39gn 2209 (H4350) I get 2415 and have used it with the bullet softnosed to take about 9 goats so far out to about 185 yds and a couple of hares but they were under a 100.

Von Gruff.

[StarMetal]

I had no idea they were in GA. What can you tell me about their barrels, StarMetal?

Their barrels are pretty upper line. You can get either chrome moly or stainless. More then likely it will be a blank, not sure Woody can do a Ruger unless Ruger is like a Mauser and you can pretty much cut the chamber on a Mauser or if you have to short chamber. Now Savage they can make completely down except for bluing on the chrome moly. I know a stainless finished barrel runs about mid $200. Here is their website: http://www.lothar-walther.de/359.php

Select American or U.S. barrels as those are more common bores and twist we are familiar with. The European barrels have different bores and groove diameters and different twist for calibers we are familiar with.

[Marlin Junky]

If you can get the 7x57 to do what I have in mine you should be well pleased. I run a 160gn Lyman 287641 GC bullet in lino cause I have lots of it and over 39gn 2209 (H4350) I get 2415 and have used it with the bullet softnosed to take about 9 goats so far out to about 185 yds and a couple of hares but they were under a 100.

Von Gruff.

I don't know if the 7x57 would be compatible with my action rails. One can always open up the rails but it would be a bit more difficult to make 'em closer together for the more tapered 7x57. I would think a 7mm-08 would be more compatible with the .358's action although I would prefer the longer neck of the 7x57 which may prove superficial because I intent to go fast with boolits less than .270 in sectional density.

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

Their barrels are pretty upper line. You can get either chrome moly or stainless. More then likely it will be a blank, not sure Woody can do a Ruger unless Ruger is like a Mauser and you can pretty much cut the chamber on a Mauser or if you have to short chamber. Now Savage they can make completely down except for bluing on the chrome moly. I know a stainless finished barrel runs about mid $200. Here is their website: http://www.lothar-walther.de/359.php

Select American or U.S. barrels as those are more common bores and twist we are familiar with. The European barrels have different bores and groove diameters and different twist for calibers we are familiar with.

Thanks for the link. At this point I'm not even sure I want a stainless or chrome-moly barrel. All I know for sure is I want to go fast, hit hard down range and "drive tacks" with less than 180 grains of boolit without using 50-60 grains of powder to do it.

MJ

[docone31]

Paper patch whatever you have.
works for me.

[StarMetal]

I can tell you a 7mm-08 will have a very very very short throat and you're stuck using very short light weight bullets, I know, I have one. Also if that Ruger is a short, or lets say not as long as an 06 action, you can't use a 7x57 in it.

[frankenfab]

Dan Lilja has 6 different twist rates in .284/7mm.

I like the fact that he has shared so much information freely with the public in his numerous articles.

Here's a link to the twist rate page:

http://www.riflebarrels.com/products/caliber_twist_rates.htm

I'm sure Lothar Walther is a premium product as already stated.

[Marlin Junky]

I can tell you a 7mm-08 will have a very very very short throat and you're stuck using very short light weight bullets, I know, I have one. Also if that Ruger is a short, or lets say not as long as an 06 action, you can't use a 7x57 in it.

StartMetal,

The short action M77 has a 2.9" magazine box which means there's over .6" for a boolit outside the 7x57 case. That should be enough room for a 150 grain boolit. I'm more concerned about the action rails being too far apart. Wish I knew more about the .30 TC.

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

Dan Lilja has 6 different twist rates in .284/7mm.

I like the fact that he has shared so much information freely with the public in his numerous articles.

Here's a link to the twist rate page:

http://www.riflebarrels.com/products/caliber_twist_rates.htm

I'm sure Lothar Walther is a premium product as already stated.

Lilja barrels are button rifled. I don't expect a button rifled barrel to shoot cast well at over 2300 fps.

MJ

[82nd airborne]

I have had awsome results from McGowan barrels, not only are the barrels top notch, so is the service!

[StarMetal]

Lilja barrels are button rifled. I don't expect a button rifled barrel to shoot cast well at over 2300 fps.

MJ

You're not correct about that. I have two Lothar Walter barrels shooting you mentioned 2300 fps with cast and they are button rifled barrels. My Savage 110 6.5x54MS and my AR15 6.5 Grendel. My Sako 7mm-08 had gone to 2640 fps with cast. To me that's a misconception about button rifling. I spoke with Mr. McMillan on the phone one time about button rifling and cast. He told me that they could button groove deep.

Taking a quick look at the Lyman cast book all their 7mm bullets are loaded at over a 2.600 OAL.

[Larry Gibson]

Marlin Junky

Assuming you are talking about cast bullets, regular or PP'd, I'm getting excellent results with my 27 1/2" Palma barrel with 14" twist in .308W. It handles the 154 gr LBT bullet and the 160 gr 311455 extremely well up through 2500 fps with varmint accuracy and 10 shot 2 moa at 2600+ fps. I've also a PP mould to test but the 6.5 project has taken most of my time lately. If you want to stick with cast bullets I'd recommend the 14" twist for 150 - 170 gr bullets. A 16" twist would probably do well with 125 - 150 gr bullets. With 120-130 gr bullets a 17 or 18" twist would be the ticket. The cast bullet bench rest boys are getting some very decent 200 yard groups at HV with lighter cast bullets in the 2400+ fps range.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

I believe Larry is on the right track. I'm for going with the 308 and one major reason is the rifle was build for that cartridge family. There are many many molds in the 30 caliber also. You can also neck down your 358 brass. I feel it's the easiest best solution and that you would get good result faster with the 308.

[Marlin Junky]

You're not correct about that. I have two Lothar Walter barrels shooting you mentioned 2300 fps with cast and they are button rifled barrels. My Savage 110 6.5x54MS and my AR15 6.5 Grendel. My Sako 7mm-08 had gone to 2640 fps with cast. To me that's a misconception about button rifling. I spoke with Mr. McMillan on the phone one time about button rifling and cast. He told me that they could button groove deep.

I suppose I could ask for a specially grooved barrel, but that's gonna cost me more, right? Wouldn't it be more straight forward and less costly to order a slow twist 4-6 groove barrel from someone that routinely cuts rifling at least .004" deep?


Taking a quick look at the Lyman cast book all their 7mm bullets are loaded at over a 2.600 OAL.

Yes but both their 150 and 162 grain boolits are seated in 7x57 cases to a COL of 2.80".

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

I believe Larry is on the right track. I'm for going with the 308 and one major reason is the rifle was build for that cartridge family. There are many many molds in the 30 caliber also. You can also neck down your 358 brass. I feel it's the easiest best solution and that you would get good result faster with the 308.

Yeah, I'm inclined to go along with you and Larry. What about the barrel material? Does it matter if stainless or chrome-moly is used. The action is stainless but getting a nice smooth barrel interior means more than matching the barrel to the action. I'm still wondering about the .30 TC though. If anyone runs into .30 TC dimensions, please post a link.

Thanks,
MJ

P.S. The .30 TC is listed in QuickLoad as being able to hold 54 grains of water vs. the .308's 56 grains of water. There are no dimensions but there is a photo which shows a little longer neck (maybe) than the .308 and a somewhat sharper shoulder.

[runfiverun]

there is also a case that starts out as a 308 and has the shoulders pushed back for a longer neck it's not the 308x 11/2.
i can't recall the name but it does have a bit lower case capacity and is designed to work well with cast boolits.
the slower twist rates do work better at higher velocities.
savage makes a 308 bbl with 13 twist from the factory [for their f-class rifles] but it woukd be in the 2400 fps range a 1-14 would be where to start.
you could always go with a 7x57 i.c.l. which straightens out the case walls or the ackley version which does the same thing just not quite as far.
i'd go with the 308 case though as you know it will feed

[StarMetal]

Yeah, I'm inclined to go along with you and Larry. What about the barrel material? Does it matter if stainless or chrome-moly is used. The action is stainless but getting a nice smooth barrel interior means more than matching the barrel to the action. I'm still wondering about the .30 TC though. If anyone runs into .30 TC dimensions, please post a link.

Thanks,
MJ

Doesn't matter in my opinion from a major quality barrel maker. My LW's are stainless and they are very smooth inside, very smooth.

Yes cut rifling will cost a lot. There's not a lot that really do it now. I'm not saying one or two, just not as many that button, broach, or hammer forger.

[Marlin Junky]

The cast bullet bench rest boys are getting some very decent 200 yard groups at HV with lighter cast bullets in the 2400+ fps range.

Larry Gibson

Larry,

Examples would be nice, especially if mold information is included. :-)

MJ

[303Guy]

... getting a nice smooth barrel interior means more than matching the barrel to the action.Is that necessarily so? I get the idea that a 'textured' bore is better for accuracy.

[StarMetal]

Is that necessarily so? I get the idea that a 'textured' bore is better for accuracy.

You're on to something there 303guy. A textured bore does seem to shoot more accurate at least with cast.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,

Examples would be nice, especially if mold information is included. :-)

MJ

The Cast Bullet Association newsletter is probably the place to get that. I read a friends every now and then. BR boys are somewhat secretive but some usefull info is there. One of our members (PatI?) here has posted info about what they are using also. I'm more up on the heavier bullets for longer range shooting, hense the 14" twist Palma and 160 - 170 gr bullets I use.

My Palma barrel is a molly simply because that's what it was when I found it as a take off barrel with less than 50 shots through it. The previous owner just decided the 27.5" barrel wasn't long enough and went to a 30" barrel. I've a couple stainless barrels and have no problems with them. The Schneider stainless 12" twist barrel on my M70 Target is excellent, smooth and a real shooter with cast and jacketed.

Basic fact regarding accuracy at HV with regular cast bullets; it is a whole lot easier to get very good accuracy at high velocity with appropriate cast bullets by controlling the RPM. This is done by using the minimal twist necessary to stabilise the chosen cast bullet(s) in the velocity range desired (within reason).

Larry Gibson

[Pat I.]

Larry I'm going to have to disagree that the BR boys are secretive. In fact a look at the match reports on the CBA website, not the forum, lists all the equipment and loading data that's used.

If you're going for a 1 inch gun a Shilen 14 twist Select Match 30 caliber barrel chambered in 30 BR using a RCBS 165 Sil. or any bullet with an OAL of around 1.020 should get you there pretty easy. You should be able to make 2250/2300 FPS with around 31 grs or so of Varget and either lino or HTed or quenched WWs. If you're looking for a bit more speed a 15 twist barrel might be a better choice. The Shilen barrels are "relatively" cheap from The Barrel Man and there's a lot of information about shooting the 30 BR out there if you look.

The advantage of the RCBS 165 Sil. is that it's a pretty good fit for a 1 1/2 degree tapered throat without having to bump or taper it. I didn't mention it but if you're building the gun for cast bullets get a throat that'll work which in this example would be .310 x 1 1/2 degrees.

[scrapcan]

Pat is right. All of the info is posted for the resutls of the registered CBA matches. You can generally find the nfo in each issue.

Interesting stuff in the equipment and loading reports.

[felix]

There are not many secrets out there. What might be considered somewhat proprietary would be the composition of the materials from various suppliers. This prolly is because there is no way to show that one composition is better than another for each instance throughout a life-cycle, i.e., from machining through being shot-out for a consistent round maintaining the accuracy required. The warehouse experiences during the 70's proved and disproved many ideas thought to help and hurt just about every aspect of competitive shooting from a bench, no matter the gun style. As far as I know, there were no pistols involved, ever. ... felix

[Pat I.]

Felix I'm no newby to the cast bullet world but sometimes I just don't know what the heck you're talking about. Could you please explain your last post?

[felix]

Pat, I am agreeing with your post about secrets, and just placing emphasis on that effect. ... felix

[madsenshooter]

All this talk of slower twists has me concerned that my 6mm/30-40 Krag AI may not work so well with the bargain Obermeyer barrel that I have. I haven't measured the twist, but it looks to be 1/8 or less. Presently the only 6mm mold that I have is the Eagan MX2-243, which is only .813 long, and weighs just 79gr.

[felix]

Gradually increase speed until accuracy there is an obvious failure using your criteria. Then use a slower powder to do the same. Then another. If the speed differential does not increase for the same accuracy using the slower powder succession, then you know the true limit of your twist with that boolit. ... felix

[Von Gruff]

Felix that is how I ended up using ADI 2209 (H4350) for my 162gn 7x57 and get hunting accuracy if 1 1/2in for 5 at 100 and in a 9 in twist button rifled barrel to boot.
By the way I have read the warehouse experiments , although it was sometime back, but remember it was a good read

Von Gruff.

[Marlin Junky]

Felix that is how I ended up using ADI 2209 (H4350) for my 162gn 7x57 and get hunting accuracy if 1 1/2in for 5 at 100 and in a 9 in twist button rifled barrel to boot.
Von Gruff.

You forgot to post the average velocity.

Thanks,
MJ

[Marlin Junky]

Here's another barrel question:

What about the 5R rifling? It's supposed to (and intuitively seems it would) provide a better gas seal with less distortion.

I think the .30 BR is out... too small and too much work to create. I'm still considering the .30 TC though.

MJ

[Pat I.]

Haven't been able to find a print of the 30 TC but from pictures it looks a lot like the 30x47 I'm shooting in matches now. 165 gr HTed WW LBT bullet on top of 39 or 40 grs of VV135 moves it right along and keeps them together. The 300 Savage is another option if you want to use a factory chambering but not near as sexy. I know you said you wanted to load from the magazine for fast follow up shots but with a Score High Benchrest Follower installed and a couple of cartridges close at hand you could load pretty fast and open the gun up to a lot of different options

The BR case is small but forming is a breeze and it works. Just take a 7 BR case put a little Bullseye in it with a toilet paper wad on top and shoot it up in the air, instant 30 BR. If you're going to use 6 BR cases run a tapered 30 caliber expander in and there it is.

[Larry Gibson]

It has been a while since I visited over on the Bench rest site, obviously. However, looks like my comments, even if old and no longer valid, sure brought out some good info:-)

I thought I read recently on this forum of one of the BR guys setting a record around 2500 fps using one of Lar's lubes? My memory thinks it was a .308 with an 17 or 18" twist, anyone know?

Larry Gibson

[HangFireW8]

Doesn't matter in my opinion from a major quality barrel maker. My LW's are stainless and they are very smooth inside, very smooth.

LW's are machine lapped for smoothness, in an automated fashion similar to hand lapping done by Lilja et al.



Yes cut rifling will cost a lot. There's not a lot that really do it now. I'm not saying one or two, just not as many that button, broach, or hammer forger.

I had a good exchange with Gale McMillan before he passed on. While he had his opinions about what would and wouldn't win a Super Shoot, he felt that the method of rifling used wasn't as important as who was using it, and what they used it on.

In other words, quality of materials, skill and craftsmanship were more important than the actual technology used.

Of all those listed, he was least keen on hammer, due to the possibility of leaving the barrel in need of stress relief.

-HF

[pistolman44]

Try contacting E R Shaw here in wester Pa. they make all types of barrels. I'm pretty sure that is the name of the company.

[runfiverun]

5r don't give the boolit much to grab.
try an old arisaka you'll see the pain it causes.
a three groove would work better. [look for ben's post on it]
but a decent 4 groove .004 tall rifling would do just superbly.
the slower twist is a "must" as you can see.
and proper throating.
shaw does good work,as do pac-nor,shiloh,green mountain,douglas,hart also understands cast bbls.

[Marlin Junky]

5r don't give the boolit much to grab.
try an old arisaka you'll see the pain it causes.
a three groove would work better. [look for ben's post on it]
but a decent 4 groove .004 tall rifling would do just superbly.
the slower twist is a "must" as you can see.
and proper throating.
shaw does good work,as do pac-nor,shiloh,green mountain,douglas,hart also understands cast bbls.

runfiverun,

Thanks for the input, now I'm really confused.

Just kidding, but I was hoping the 5R rifling was a little taller to make up for the angled lands. I kinda figured it was a jacketed bullet friendly set up; however, the idea of reducing the sharp corner at the land/groove junction appeals to me since I feel that might be the location where gas leakage is the greatest (even when shooting over-groove boolits).

I guess my problem is there are too many custom barrel suppliers so I'm leaning toward barrel makers that use the cut-rifling method.

Velocity is king

MJ

[HangFireW8]

Try contacting E R Shaw here in wester Pa. they make all types of barrels. I'm pretty sure that is the name of the company.

I have an ER Shaw in .257. It shoots jacketed bullets very accurately, but there are tooling marks on the rifling, and the rifling is very shallow. I wouldn't recommend it for cast bullets -- though it may do OK, it's not exactly my first choice if I was building a cast boolit launcher, for those reasons.

Now, if they do make a barrel with taller lands/deeper grooves, that might be a candidate.

-HF

[Marlin Junky]

I like the idea of a four groove Bartlein barrel that is .298" across the lands and .308" in the grooves (.005" high lands!) but I'm not sure the .298" bore diameter would be too tight for most currently available molds. The only mold I have that I would think the .308W would like at HV is RCBS 30-165-SIL but I haven't even used the mold yet.

So, I'm wondering how a .300" bore-ride nose work in a .298" bore?

MJ