effective distance of cast bullets

[Luke2236]

I was going through some of the group buys section and it seems that of the post I read that dealt with the topic most of the cast bullets are only effective for about 200 yards. Is that correct? What causes them to be only effective for that range if that is true?

It's not bad for my handguns, or my 30-30 or SKS. But I'm getting a Remington 700 308 and I'm looking for 800m. So are cast bullets unable to go this far or be effective this far?

Thanks.

[mike in co]

I was going through some of the group buys section and it seems that of the post I read that dealt with the topic most of the cast bullets are only effective for about 200 yards. Is that correct? What causes them to be only effective for that range if that is true?

It's not bad for my handguns, or my 30-30 or SKS. But I'm getting a Remington 700 308 and I'm looking for 800m. So are cast bullets unable to go this far or be effective this far?

Thanks.
800m with a jacketed bullet is a challenge with a 308 win, doing it with cast is not impossible but will be hard work.
at the cast boolit shoot in winnemucca we shot at 400yds and were hitting. from the bench we hit close 100 percent.

mike in co

[Luke2236]

I was reading on another list that one would need to "age" or "aneel" the cast bullets and gas check them for these distances. Do you think this is correct?

[Bullshop]

I have to ask what do you think about the folks shooting silhouette out to 500 yards or the folks shooting buffalo gong to 800 yards or how about the long range shooters shooting to 1000 and even 1200 yards with cast boolits?
They are not using barns for targets. I can tell you for sure that standing off at these ranges and having someone like Dave Guelo (spelling) put you in his sights you would end up with better ventilation than you have now from those ineffective cast boolits.
BIC/BS

[Larry Gibson]

Many .30 cal rifle cast bullets are suitable for some decent shooting out to 500 yards when the muzzle velocity is sufficient to keep them transonic at that range. The problem with .30 cal rifle cast bullets is to get one with with a BC sufficient to sustain transonic flight past 500 yards at a muzzle velocity with acceptable accuracy. With a 10" twist barrel the 311299 is about the best choice at 2000 - 2100 fps if you can maintain an accuacy level (i.e. 22 shot strings as in a NMC match) of 1.5 - 2 moa. That is not easy to do with a 10" twist.

Better is the 12" twist (some Remingtons are available with 12" twists in .308W) as it is easier to maintain that level of accuracy at that velocity level. If you can push 2200 fps and maintain accuracy all the better because, depending on altitude and humidity, you are pushing the transonic barrier at 600 yards.

Another consideration is available sight adjustment. Assuming you'll use a scope note it take about 32 moa for a 311299 at 2200 fps to go from a 100 yard zero to a 600 yard zero. Unless you have one of the high end specialty target/sniper scopes with gobs of elevation a regular 1" scope with about 45 total moa elevation adjustment will require the base be shimmed (or a 20 degree base used) so the 100 yard zero is close to the bottom of the elevation adjustment. You will not have enough adjust with a standard 1" scope to go from a 100 yard zero to a 800 yard zero.

BPC shooters shoot a lot out to 1000 yards with bullets of simular BCs to the 311299. However, the larger .375 to .45 cal bullets are much more forgiving as they are either already under or actually in the transonic barrier area at muzzle velocities of 1050 to 1400 fps. Also the sights require around 200 moa adjustment from 100 to 1000 yards. Ballistically it is a whole different game with those cartridges, sights and rifles and one of which a scope sighted .308W is not well suited for when using cast bullets.

Larry Gibson

[1Shirt]

They are as effective as they need to be for what ever you intend to use them. If you are satisfied with what you are using at what ever range you are shooting than that is the effective range. Also depends on many many variables including vol, blt design, BH, plain based or GC, blt weight, quality of rifle or handgun, ability of the shooter, etc. etc. etc.
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[Luke2236]

My 700 has a 12" twist. I have a Mueller scope, so sighting won't be a problem, i.e. the equipment is good but I'm not the consistent variable. :)

[Marlin Hunter]

Didn't the original Sharps rifle shoot cast boolits out to 1000 yards? Distance is one thing, and accuracy is another. The ability to make symmetrical boolits is the key to accuracy. Boolit shape/design is the key to distance.

[mpmarty]

In the late 1800s the Gov. changed the 45/70/405 to the 45/70/500 to get better 1000 yard performance. This was in the days of 1200 to 1400 fps muzzle velocities with black powder. Today the 45/70 with Ranch Dog 350 or 425 grain projectiles is quite able to compete at longer ranges with some amazing accuracy. The problem is launching at sufficient velocity to maintain super or trans sonic speeds downrange and the amount of recoil I'm willing to suffer to do it.:bigsmyl2:

[Larry Gibson]

My 700 has a 12" twist. I have a Mueller scope, so sighting won't be a problem, i.e. the equipment is good but I'm not the consistent variable. :)

That is a very good set up. You might want to look into paper patching. Lyman's 301620 might be a good one as would 311467, 311334 and 311299. Pushed along at 2400 -2600 fps they should hold to your specified 800m range.

Larry Gibson

[Luke2236]

Thanks for the suggestion.

[Bullshop]

I must apologise for what may have been a not so friendly answer. So, sorry I was of no help at all.
However I see that Larry had everything you needed so I am glad to see you did get very good answers to your questions.
Be sure to let us know how goes the long range shooting with your 308.
BIC/BS

[Buckshot]

............The British were the kings of long range shooting (300, 600, 800, 900, 1000, 1200, and 1400 yards) and this was with mainly 45 caliber muzzle loaders. Some later 50 cals were used. The early 1870's saw the epitome of this marksmanship. The lead slugs were cast, swaged, lathe turned, and also paper patched or combinations thereof. The rifles were sofisticated and very carefully made, and obviously costly. The only propellant was black powder.

................Buckshot

[DLCTEX]

Consider Billy Dixon's shot at over 1500 yds. to take an Indian off his horse in 1874. This was done with a 50 cal. How good was the quality control on gun bores and moulds and sizers then? Should the average caster not be able to turn out a better boolit today?

[WHITETAIL]

You only get out what you put in.
What I mean by that is just what was said.
You have to work at it and see what works for you.:Fire:

[sav300]

DCLTEX,Hi.Where can I find out about Billy Dixon.Am interested as I have heard him mentioned several times. Thanks.

[chaos]

My 700 has a 12" twist. I have a Mueller scope, so sighting won't be a problem, i.e. the equipment is good but I'm not the consistent variable. :)

How do you like the Mueller scope? I've got a couple on my 10/22's and like them. Just not sure how a $125 scope would hold up on a larger caliber. These scopes are as clear as anything on the market.

I have a remington 700p in .308 that has the 1 in 12 twist you speak of. The only thing I have tried in the gun is 150 gr Winchester power points. ( I actually purchased this gun for my kids to shoot deer with, Its HEAVY so it dont kick. ) It'll only print 1.25 inch groups with the factory loading. I recently acquired some 168gr A-max slugs, should shrink the group size considerably with this twist rate.

[sniper7369]

It'll only print 1.25 inch groups with the factory loading. I recently acquired some 168gr A-max slugs, should shrink the group size considerably with this twist rate.

With a good hand load or even Federal GMM that rifle should shoot .75 MOA out of the box. The 1-12 twist does tend to favor the 168gr bullets though. The heaviest I go with mine is 175 for 800-1,000 yds with the 168 for 300-600 in F- class.

[CSH]

DCLTEX,Hi.Where can I find out about Billy Dixon.Am interested as I have heard him mentioned several times. Thanks.

Do a Google search on "The Battle of Adobe Walls". Many of the claims about the battle are disputed, including the 1538 yard shot.

[Doc Highwall]

One thing not mentioned here is the effective range of the shooter. Long range shooting is an art in itself that requires lots of trigger time and dedication, you don't just plop yourself down on the firing line and start yanking the trigger. One of the best things that you can do for training is learn to shoot smallbore prone first. There are others here that will attest to this and that it is harder then highpower.

[mike in co]

One thing not mentioned here is the effective range of the shooter. Long range shooting is an art in itself that requires lots of trigger time and dedication, you don't just plop yourself down on the firing line and start yanking the trigger. One of the best things that you can do for training is learn to shoot smallbore prone first. There are others here that will attest to this and that it is harder then highpower.


what he just said
go prone with a 22....yep 22 lr at 200 is very close to 308 at long distance( its called mini palma if i remember corectly)


cheap practice.


mike in co

[DLCTEX]

Billy Dixon was also in the Buffalo Wallow Battle, north of my house about 18 miles. His descendants live and ranch near the Buffalo wallow. Do a google search for Billy Dixon and click on the Texas Handbook Online. Also search Buffalo Wallow. He and five other survivors received the Congressional Medal Of Honor for their actions there.

[Luke2236]

How do you like the Mueller scope? I've got a couple on my 10/22's and like them. Just not sure how a $125 scope would hold up on a larger caliber. These scopes are as clear as anything on the market.
.

I'll let you know when I get it on Monday. My scope was $269 and was tested by I think snipercountry.com to be a good second runner to the Leopolds for the .308.

[RBak]

DCLTEX,Hi.Where can I find out about Billy Dixon.Am interested as I have heard him mentioned several times. Thanks.

That particular shot has been discussed, cussed, and praised as long as I have been around listening to stories of long range shooting.
Many modern shooters feels it was impossible, given the firearms and powders of the time, while just as many feel they could "probably" duplicate that shot, given a little practice at that range.

I enjoy the story every time I read it, and I marvel at the precision in all the variable controls it took to pull it off.

One of the better online synopsis and attempts to duplicate that shot can be found here.....
http://www.levergun.com/articles/bdixon.htm

If you have never read or heard the story this could provide some interesting reading.

In the early 1980's I had a Rem 700 Varminter in .308 with a Weaver T-10 that I used to ring the Ram gonger on the Silhouette Range at 500 meters, and I did it with monotonous regularity using cast bullets....problem was, that particular load would only occasionally, if ever, take a Ram down during a match. It was death on Chickens and Pigs, and I never could hit the darn Turkeys no matter what I was shooting, so the whole thought of ever becoming a silhouette shooter kinda went down the drain.
At the time, I knew of only one other person shooting (or attempting to shoot) cast, and he was a "B Class" shooter who did it just for the grins and giggles....a good enough reason for any of us to shoot, if you ask me.

Russ

[Dutchman]

The absolute best read on the subject and one that I read non-stop until I was finished as it was such a well written book:

"The Buffalo Harvest" by Frank H. Mayer & Charles B. Roth

Mayer died in 1954 in Fairplay, Colorado. He was 104. He was in Dodge City in 1872. Hunt this book down and buy it. Pioneer Press (Dixie Gun Works).

"In Search of the Buffalo, the story of J. Wright Mooar" by Charles G. Anderson
re-published by Pioneer Press (Dixie Gun Works)

Somewhere I read that the cartridge that killed more buffalo than any other was the .50-70 Gov't. It was "milsurp" in the 1870s. Civilians could get free ammo at army forts. Frank Mayer would break down the ammo for the powder.

A little earlier historically but very well documented:

Reports of Experiments with Small Arms for The Military Service by Officers of the Ordnance Department, U.S. Army. Published by authority of the Secretary of War. 1856. (the Secretary of War in 1856 was Jefferson Davis)

Testing went to 1/2 mile, 880 yards. Many of the tests were done in 1854-55 at Harpers Ferry. There were a great deal of tests done with trials barrels and projectiles and rifles were fired from a machine rest, which is illustrated.

For example: "Size of target at 1,000 yards, 20 x 24 feet. Number of shots in target 24. Whole number fired 25." Fired with "new" rifled musket Nov. 15, 1855. Bullet weight 500 grs, powder 60 grs, "wind strong left".

You might also visit "United States Firearms 1776-1876" by Butler. There is much there concerning the 1871-72 rifle and ammunition trials conducted by the Ordnance Dept.

Somewhere on the web I read something akin to: "The Trapdoor Springfield at 1 mile". Don't know where it is but its worth hunting down.

Anybody who disparages Billy Dixon is an idiot who's proud of his ignorance.

Dutch

[flhroy]

some more long range shooting with the 45/70


http://www.researchpress.co.uk/longrange/sandyhook.htm