As-cast info please?

[Canuck Bob]

I tried an "as cast" (ACB) search and that troll default refused me.

Anyone got some good threads or sites linked that discuss as-cast boolits?

Anyone have success with ACB 30 or 303 rifle shooting, milder loads specifically?

[ScottJ]

I may wind up shooting as cast for the majority of what I shoot.

Just about everything I've cast so far (just got started late last year) comes out where I'd size it anyway.

The Lee .358-140-SWC I picked up at a gun show is dropping .358-.359

The .356-111-1R is dropping .356-.357

The RCBS .356-115 tuncated cone my brother lets me keep at my house for him drops out of round. .358 at the widest point and .356 at the smallest. I sized the last batch .356 but might just try as cast to see what happens (I also just ordered a Lee tumble lube 124gr from Midway)

Bro. also lets me use a RCBS .45 230gr round nose that drops a smidge over .452. I have to size them .451 to get reliable feeding in my 1911 and get minimal leading. However that same size leads up my Taurus PT745. I loaded up 6 rounds as cast and they chamber just fine in the Taurus. I'll try them for function and leading this weekend I hope. If it works out I'm going to have to find a .452 boolit that'll feed reliably in the 1911 (would prefer to be able to use a single loading to feed both guns). I'm hoping maybe the Lee TL 230 2R will work.

I have a Lee .429-200-RF that will cast .428 unless I get things exactly right. Planning to try beagling it and shooting those as cast provided they aren't too out of round.

[DLCTEX]

The ability to shoot as cast will depend on what the individual mould will cast with your alloy. If it drops in the dia. you need, its good. You need to slug your bore and then find a mould that will cast no more (usually) than .002 larger than groove dia., and at least .001 over. Chamber and throat size can also come into play as there are so many variables from gun to gun.

[runfiverun]

and if they are g/c boolits the mild loads are a definate must for any kind of accuracy.

[John Boy]

Anyone got some good threads or sites linked that discuss as-cast boolits?Bob, this a topic you will only find discussed on casting or reloading forums in the posts. Have never seen an article on the virtues of as-cast bullets. Here's a thumbnail on the subject:

As cast bullets should be lubed and reloaded if the shooter has a groove diameter that will obturate the bullet properly and maximum accuracy is desired for more accurate groups from a bullet that has been well cast - completely filled out and a square base with a diameter that is within the manufacturer's tolerance. Might add, some folks don't know how to properly open the mold or drop the bullet before the melt has completely hardened so the axis of the bullet is not distorted

As-cast bullets from the mold have the best straight axis, mold tolerance determinable

OK, what happens when it resized/lubed when a bullet is put a lube/sizer? A nose punch lube/sizer will distort the axis of the putty, the soft lead. Therefore accuracy will be negatively impacted. The best way to determine whether the axis of the bullet is not true, is to measure it using a dial gauge comparator. If the bullet is 0.002 or more out of true, the axis of the bullet is not perpendicular from the base to the metpat or nose of the ogive. The best variance is 0.001

Ok, instead of pan lubing the as-cast bullets that does not distort the axis, one has to use a lube sizer for either lubing or resizing the bullet for proper obturation in the given measured grooves of the bore. IF one has to resize a bullet, the Lee Lube Sizer is the best to use because the plug pushes the bullet from the base up through the resizing die - not down from the nose. There is more strength at the base than at the nose

I shoot multiple calibers with various bullet types using BPCR's out to 1000yds, 200yd Schuetzen matches, 500m steel matches and long range (800-900-1000yds). Reading the wind and mirage is challenge enough without having a non-concentric bullet that is going yaw more than the normal external ballistics. So, I cast like a fanatic and have multiple pans of cake from previous pan lubings for the standard bullets that I shoot. If I have to resize - it's the Lee and I have 2 Lyman's that I hardly ever use when reloading for accuracy


Thats All There is To It! ... Concentric Axis

[Canuck Bob]

That all makes sense. I thought because of the sizing tooling the sized boolit would be more uniform. Now I understand that the sizing affects the relatively soft lead alloy and distorts the boolit.

The concentricity of the ACB really makes a great deal of sense. I will be a low volume loader so pan lubing and working out a mold or two for as-cast won't be a big deal at all.

[Buckshot]

...........Al Miller or "Handloader" magazine was a great promoter of shooting as cast lead slugs, confessing to smearing the lube onto the boolit by hand. I'll pass, thanks all the same :-) You can shoot an as cast slug lubed in a conventional lube press by using a die a thousandth over the slug's OD. His reasoning was as you stated, " Now I understand that the sizing affects the relatively soft lead alloy and distorts the boolit."

That isn't necessarily a 'Fact'. It's a possibility. I HAVE bent long skinny hard 30 cal slugs by trying to force them into a lube-size die before. Two of note being the Lyman 311284 and the Saeco RG-4. If the lube-sizer is mis-aligned it probably will steal accuracy from a cast boolit, and in my case render some boolits worthless :-)

Cast lead boolit must be lubed, but they don't ALWAYS have to be sized. If they drop from the mould at the size you want then why size them? If your slug drops at .452" and you want a .452" slug you would certainly lube it in a .452" or .453" die and all it will do is apply the lube. In my mind it's rather simple. The only reason to size a lead slug is if it's to large to safely chamber or even chamber at all.

I will back up and add a caveat to my last statement. I have sized Lyman 8mm 323470 slugs that drop at .325" down to .314". This for a difficult 7.65x53 Argentine rifle, but even with this gross amount of sizing it shot very well. In this case it was HOW the sizing was done that did the trick. The .325" slug was lube sized in a .323" die and then sent up through a Lee type push through .314" die. That is the hot ticket for ANY sizing to be done that HAS to be done.

Another couple examples that worked exceedingly well was to tumble lube some Lee 458 - 340-F & Lyman 458191 292gr boolits intended for 45 caliber rifles and then squirt them up though a Lee .452" die. I wanted to shoot them in my Ruger 45 Colt Vaquero. Right out of the gate they were among the most accurate ammo shot with that pistol.

http://www.fototime.com/68E891AD4F08210/standard.jpg

So it's not so much that ALL sizing will ruin a boolit's accuracy. If your equipment is worn out/missaligned then indeed it will have an effect on possible accuracy. Other then that it's more HOW you size that may have the greatest effect.

................Buckshot

[runfiverun]

the push through dies don't affect the nose.
a sizer the same size as your as cast will really only scrape the lube off or in the case of a star only lube.
they might also show that your as cast aren't as round as you thought.

[Bret4207]

As Buck said, Uncle Al Miller got some of us thinking about as cast. I prefer them if I can use then for the reasons John Boy laid out. Anything you do to the boolit offers the risk of damage. I do not believe sizing makes boolits "more uniform", it just doesn't work like that. You get the diameter but everything else depends on your skill as a caster and your culling technique.

As cast works great for me. Since I started trying Mule Snot (Lee Liquid Alox) my lubing is easier too. But- it doesn't work for every gun, some hate the lube, others need a bit of sizing, some are indifferent. It's worth experimenting. GC dsigns can be used with the oversize die as Buck said or some will allow the GC to be "snapped" on the base or a bit of Crazy Glue will hold it.

[390ish]

how do you seat gas checks on bullets that are not sized?

[mpmarty]

how do you seat gas checks on bullets that are not sized?

There are a number of options available:

1. Place check on base of boolit and run down into Lyman/RCBS sizer just far enough to crimp on the check, then raise handle to eject boolit with crimped check.

2. Put a dab of crazy glue on base of boolit and stick on the check.

3. Put check on base of boolit, pound boolit on bench base first to "hammer" the check on and immediately seat in case.

[390ish]

thanks

[res45]

how do you seat gas checks on bullets that are not sized?

I use two Lee molds one the Lee GC TL .312 160 gr. Harris bullet it drops at .313 bullet I TL once using Alox/JPW mix seat a GC with a Lee .314 push through sizer and TL once more and load,I shoot the bullet in three rifle SKS,Mosin and Sav.99 with excellent result.

My other mold a Lee GC .309 150 gr. FN drops a bullet pretty close to .311 I use the Lee .311 push through sizer to install the GC on those never had one to come off and always have one hole in the target regardless of the range I shoot at. So I guess you could say I don't size my bullets and shoot them as cast.