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geargnasher
03-28-2010, 01:26 AM
I was cooking down a batch of WW/battery terminals tonight and got a little impatient with my small ring burner (takes about 30 minutes to melt 50 lbs from scratch), so once the bottom layer started to melt I dumped about a cup of diesel fuel over the whole mess and lit 'er up! By the time the diesel burned down (five minutes) it was ready to skim. Must have saved at least five pounds of propane.

Anybody else ever try this?

Gear

sagacious
03-28-2010, 01:42 AM
Yes. Only way I ever do it.

You can start fluxing (using wax, or whatever) before the entire batch melts, and light the wax. As you noted, it will save a lot of time and fuel..... and your melt will be fluxed and ready to pour by the time the flames die down.

An advantage is that with this process the lead is melted and fluxed in a reducing atmosphere, and the additional heat helps the fluxing process work. All plusses-- there's no reason to do it any other way.

odoh
03-28-2010, 02:40 AM
On a small scale smelt, I use a hotplate and an RCBS cast iron pot. Takes so long that when the bottom starts to liquify, I blast the top of the heat w/a Bernz torch ~ just impatient on the small jobss.

Slow Elk 45/70
03-28-2010, 04:45 AM
To each his own, lots of things workin this game...

shootinxd
03-28-2010, 08:16 AM
WOW,i'm scared.might burn somthin down.:lovebooli

Zbench
03-28-2010, 10:13 AM
Interesting approach but had the same experience yesterday. We have a smelting box with a bottom pour we created to reduce range scrap. It has 200,000 BTU of burners to get it started. When loaded, it holds about 1000#.

When using range scrap, it's loaded with shotgun wads, paper, all sorts of burnable stuff. Once it gets hot enough to smoke we light the top and it burns VERY hot for the duration of the melt. It does cut the melt time for sure. Better still is that the copper is nice and clean when done.

It's definitely a bonus effect. Never thought of putting diesel in there as well, but sounds like a great idea!

Pete

geargnasher
03-28-2010, 01:21 PM
Yes. Only way I ever do it.

You can start fluxing (using wax, or whatever) before the entire batch melts, and light the wax. As you noted, it will save a lot of time and fuel..... and your melt will be fluxed and ready to pour by the time the flames die down.

An advantage is that with this process the lead is melted and fluxed in a reducing atmosphere, and the additional heat helps the fluxing process work. All plusses-- there's no reason to do it any other way.

I was thinking the low oxygen atmosphere was also a bonus, but mainly wanted the extra btus. I've tried using a pear burner as an expedient, but that uses extra expensive fuel and has a tendency to blow out when it gets oxygen starved working over the iron pot. The flames from the burner underneath consume most of the oxygen in the current streaming up the sides of the pot, leaving little for the burner to consume. Another method that works pretty well is using a "rosebud" tip on an oxy-acetylene torch to heat from above, since it has its own oxidizer, but again, costs money to run. A cup of dirty diesel collected from old filters at work is free!

Gear

fredj338
03-28-2010, 01:25 PM
Maybe a bit less of a mess, just wrap the top of the pot w/ alum foil &/or place alid on it. It cuts melting time down dramatically as much of the heat is lost to the open pot.

cbrick
03-28-2010, 03:36 PM
I agree with Fred, just put the lid on the pot to reduce the melt time.

Rick

geargnasher
03-28-2010, 03:43 PM
I WAS melting with the lid on, and I agree it holds heat. The primary reason I do that is to contain little explosions that sometimes occur with a trapped drop of water or pocket of air.

Anyone try used engine oil or ATF? (I exclude those of you in Kalifornia, I'm sure outdoor smelting instantly attracts those from the Ministry of Enviroment to carry you away to a windowless room somewhere for "correction".)

Gear

sqlbullet
03-29-2010, 10:32 AM
I have a 6.0L Ford diesel that takes 15 qt of oil per change. Needless to say, I have tried used motor oil, and found the same results. Melts in half the time, and is already fluxed.

Some of the lead I get is painted, in which case I just need a bit to get the fire started. The paint does the rest. Otherwise, I dump in about 1/4-1/2 cup of used oil, and light it up.

fredj338
03-29-2010, 01:27 PM
I WAS melting with the lid on, and I agree it holds heat. The primary reason I do that is to contain little explosions that sometimes occur with a trapped drop of water or pocket of air.

Anyone try used engine oil or ATF? (I exclude those of you in Kalifornia, I'm sure outdoor smelting instantly attracts those from the Ministry of Enviroment to carry you away to a windowless room somewhere for "correction".)

Gear

Yeah, shooter are already an endangered species here. Guys that cast their own lead bullets are getting pretty closte to criminal status![smilie=b:

Greg5278
03-29-2010, 02:49 PM
I would not cover my Pot for any reason. In temperate climates, you can end up with condensation under the lid. And Poof, molten lead everywhere! The oxygen deprived atmosphere might help get a better yieled from dirty oxidixed lead.
Greg

lwknight
03-30-2010, 05:12 AM
Just throw in some old tires too. That should de oxidize the atmosphere LOL
Really I would use caution with diesel. At least limit the amount used at a time.

johnlaw484
03-30-2010, 05:45 AM
Road flares too

HeavyMetal
03-30-2010, 09:17 AM
"Smelting" in the back yard has not been a problem but I have been very careful not to make large clouds of smoke!

The thought of adding "fuel" to the pot is interesting. However I have no Diesel powered trucks so I would have to go buy Diesel to try this out.

Think, at least for me, I'll continue with plain propane for the time being and cover the pot for additional heat at start up time. As I only "smelt" once or twice a year any more this isn't a big issue for me.

Beekeeper
03-30-2010, 09:53 AM
I don't play well with my neighbors so any thing I can do to yank their collective chain is a plus as far as I am concerned.
My neighbors are from the local tribe and party all week and own 1/2 million in expensive toys.
Complain when you open your garage door yet have parties in the back yard that go on for several days with the usual drinking and dope.
I smelt only when the wind is blowing in their direction too get even.
Call the cops and you get hassled with ( they are your neighbors you know, are you sure you want to report them)Found out the police dispatcher was from the same tribe .Sure kept the complaints down that way.

Jim

prs
03-30-2010, 11:46 AM
I don't play well with my neighbors so any thing I can do to yank their collective chain is a plus as far as I am concerned.
My neighbors are from the local tribe and party all week and own 1/2 million in expensive toys.
Complain when you open your garage door yet have parties in the back yard that go on for several days with the usual drinking and dope.
I smelt only when the wind is blowing in their direction too get even.
Call the cops and you get hassled with ( they are your neighbors you know, are you sure you want to report them)Found out the police dispatcher was from the same tribe .Sure kept the complaints down that way.

Jim

Maybe you need to rasie a few pigs out next to the property line; or, instead of re-queening that "hot" colony of honeybees you have, just set it out next to their fence in the shade.

My neighbor's wife, a psychologist, called the law on me becasue I was using my shooting range. It had to be so many feet from any dwelling. The Sheriff and duputies found I was very much in compliance and they stayed a good part of the afternoon shooting with me. Well she did it again a few weeks later; this time called a state trooper whose wife she new. He also confirmed that I was set up very well and legal and he also really wanted to stay and shoot, but did not want to get into hot water with his wife. The authorities put her on the "nut case" list and would not respond to her complaints further.

prs

sqlbullet
03-30-2010, 12:30 PM
Any oil will work. Diesel would be down the list for me since it is more volatile. Used cooking oil will work great I bet. I have used bio-diesel that I brewed using the so-called Dr. Pepper method. It worked too.

geargnasher
03-31-2010, 12:01 AM
Any oil will work. Diesel would be down the list for me since it is more volatile. Used cooking oil will work great I bet. I have used bio-diesel that I brewed using the so-called Dr. Pepper method. It worked too.

You put biodiesel in that 6.0 of yours and you'll find out some interesting things. None of them good for your wallet. Bio-fuels, even as low as B20, have a nasty habit of being hygroscopic, and moisture dissolved in them makes it past all the separators and into the fuel injectors, causing galled multipliers. You do that in a 6.4L or Cummins common rail and you get to replace the pump and all of the injectors for just one drop of water.

I've made biodiesel myself from fryer grease using the base method and washing it, very effective fuel for older IDI poppet injectors.

Heavymetal, I suppose you could use any flammable liquid, like charcoal lighter fluid or cooking oil, as has been mentioned. Just watch the "poof" factor, light it before hot vapors spread too much.

Greg5278, I have proven, through actual experience, that one can actually turn a garden hose full-blast on a molten pot of lead with no lead spatter. LOTS of steam and boiling drops blowing everywhere, but no tinsel faery. The water has to be UNDER the lead to cause real problems.

Gear

sagacious
03-31-2010, 01:12 AM
Greg5278, I have proven, through actual experience, that one can actually turn a garden hose full-blast on a molten pot of lead with no lead spatter. LOTS of steam and boiling drops blowing everywhere, but no tinsel faery. The water has to be UNDER the lead to cause real problems.

This is absolutely correct. It's the same as water hitting a hot frying pan-- no different. The water has to get under the lead to present the risk of a steam explosion.

The notion that a drop of water or sweat falling on a pot of hot lead is sure disaster, just scares the bejeezus out of the newbies, but is quite untrue.

The problem in all this lies with the fact that some folks will invariably focus more on the imagined danger of a drop of sweat, while ignoring other more serious threats, such as lead dust/particulate toxicity. The scary advice gets remembered (even if it's all wrong), but the 'boring' safety advice often goes ignored. For this reason, it's best for everyone to know the real scoop on safety issues.

evan price
03-31-2010, 05:34 AM
I have been using used motor oil as flux for quite some time, I go through about 6-8 gallons a year so I have plenty whenever i need it. I dump about half a cup into 50# of lead and let the flames burn. That removes the oxygen from the pot and lets the oxides reduce down. You get nice clean lead, for sure.
As far as lidding the pot, it's the only way to fly when starting up, otherwise you lose too much heat. As for condensation, that's not gonna happen. If it's hot enough to melt lead it's hot enough to prevent condensation.

armyrat1970
03-31-2010, 06:43 AM
I have noticed when casting and water dropping with wws and not filling the sprue enough, a small hole may form in the base of the booit. It of course will contain a little water. After sorting through the boolits, these go back into the pot as rejects. The deeper the whole, the more the alloy bubbles. But never an explosion from dropping them in. That happened to me once though when I tried to stir the melt with a butter knife that had picked up humidity casting at night. When I stuck it into the pot, BAM.[smilie=l:

bobthenailer
04-01-2010, 06:35 PM
i use a lid on my 12 qt pot with a heat shield around the pot, its like a plumbers pot has, it really helps it to heat up faster and is less sensative to the wind blowing and cooling the sides of the pot. as for cost of propane i recently smelted 1,200 pounds of lead & WW finished product weight and still have a little left , thats $17.00 for 1 20lb tank of propane i think thats reasonable!
bob