.223 based wildcat?

[dualsport]

It occured to me the .223 Rem. might be a fun one to neck up, especially because brass is plentiful. I pick up a hundred or two almost everytime I go to the range. I already have a couple rifles in .223 to feed. Any ideas or suggestions on where to look for neck-up ideas? I'm thinking of a cb purpose built thing. The obvious thing is going up in standard sizes. Is there already a 6.5/.223? Would that even work? It just seems to me the small case with a bigger boolit would be a good cb cartridge. Am I way behind the curve? EDIT; Could I make a .222 based wildcat (6.5/.222) from .223 brass? Then I'd have a longer neck.

[DLCTEX]

The .223 has been necked up and down ad infinitium. The longer neck would be a plus, but at a cost of powder capacity in an already limited capacity case. I think there is a 35-223 out there.

[rhbrink]

There is already a whole bunch the ones that get my attention is the 7TCU and 300 Whisper. I use to own a Contender with a 7TCU that shot great with condom stuff but could never get the cast to work well but didn't work with it a whole lot either. I was using a Lyman Loverin style that was typical Lyman, under sized. Eventually sold the whole thing and went on different stuff.

[StrawHat]

There are a bunch of wildcats based on the 223, 222 and the 222 Magnum. I had a 6.5 based on the 222 Magnum and it was a decent package. (Not sure why I sold it but I did) Reloading becomes a necessity but load development is enjoyable and sometimes recipes can be found or adapted from other cartridges.

Some info can be found in Cartridges of the World and the Ackley books. I am sure there are other books but those two spring to mind.

[quack1]

If I remember correctly, John Wooters had a 25 caliber wildcat on the 223. Think it was called 25 copperhead. Pretty sure it was written up in an article in Handloader Magazine when he wrote for them. Would seem to be a pretty good small game cartridge in a short action rifle.

[bruce drake]

6x45 and 6.5x45 wildcats have been used by highpower shooters in the past. The 300 Whisper/Fireball is 223 necked up to 30 cal. They are out there if you need to have an excuse to have one.

[Rocky Raab]

John Wooters' little Copperhead was based on the 222 - but one based on the 223 is just as delightful.

Necking up does tend to shorten the neck (brass has to come from somewhere), and there isn't a great surplus of that in the 223 - but it will work. The 25-223 or 25TCU is one of the wildcats I always wanted to play with but never did. I think it would be exactly what John Wooters discovered: almost the perfect called-in predator gun.

[dualsport]

Wow! Ask and you shall receive here. I've got a lot of catching up to do, I see that. Ever since I found out about a guy that will rebore/re-rifle barrels quick and economical I've been thinking about a wildcat. Now I have a lot of homework to do. Thanks guys. That 7.62x40 looks real interesting for a cb gun. Maybe a .30x.222 Rem.? If I go for a wildcat (everybody should try it once, right?) I'll report.

[GabbyM]

You'll never save any money building a wildcat rifle to shoot "free" brass.

You could just buy a $300 Stevens in 223 and shoot it as is with cast. For something larger get another Stevens in 308 or 7mm-08 and neck down some surplus 7.62 NATO brass. You can buy 500 fully processed 7.62mm cases for $104.00 at Scharch. That would be cheaper than trying to build a wildcat rifle to use “free” 223 brass.

But if you have to.
6mm-223 is fairly common as far as chamber reamer manufactures offering it. 6X47mm used to be a popular bench rest round which is the necked up 222 mag. I'm pretty sure you could make 6mm-222 from 223 brass since you can make 222 REM from 223 REM brass. That would give you a longer neck to work with but a bit less case capacity.

The 25 calibers may be nice for cast? Never given that much thought. Would think you'd be a bit short on powder for HV J bullets.

with any wildcat you have to look at the cost of relaoding dies which are priced higher than standard sets. IIRC I dropped about $135 for my set of 243 AI dies. That was a suprise to me at the time after I already ordered the barrel.

[badgeredd]

The 6 mm TCU is a fun little cartridge too. Also 223 brass can be changed into 222 cases which means anything based on 222 cases could be considered too. Obviously almost all of the wildcats would be strickly a handloading proposition but really does that matter? Hmmmmmm...wonder if I can find a wildcat that is based on the 222 so I can use up some of my excess 223 brass...I like it!!!!

Edd

[lmcollins]

Rocky - You've got it backwards. When you neck-up to a larger caliber you make the neck longer... it goes down the shoulder farther.

[MT Gianni]

There is a 223 improved also. Not the neck for cast but velocities are said to run between 223 & 22-250.

[buck1]

Wild cats are fun to play with. That said concider custom dies, rechambering, and lots of unforseen issues. And then look and you will find another com cart out there that already does that or more. Dies for it will run 30.00 anywhere, no special gunsmithing, factory brass , etc,etc,etc.
If it can be done , someone has done it. and theres a com cart out there all ready that will proabably be better.
BUT WHERES THE FUN IN THAT! I shoot 2 wildcats, but I can beat them both with a factory shell allready out there. But I would not have as much fun playing with them.

[DLCTEX]

Local guy had neighbor Mike Bryant make him a 243-22. Claims he's exceeding 4200 fps. Vaporize a prairie dog! Bet the barrel will have a short life, and it's not cast friendly.

[Echo]

If I remember correctly, John Wooters had a 25 caliber wildcat on the 223. Think it was called 25 copperhead. Pretty sure it was written up in an article in Handloader Magazine when he wrote for them. Would seem to be a pretty good small game cartridge in a short action rifle.

His Good Buddies called it Wooter's Tooter...

I have an XP-100 chambered for .30-223, necked up and blown out a little. Ballistic twin to 30 Herret (same boiler room). I use 110 and 125 gr j-words for sillywets. Very nice cartridge. Haven't done anything with it for several years, tried boolits at one time, and may get inspired to break it back out.

[Charlie Sometimes]

I considered a 6x45mm wildcat a few years ago for varmint and predator hunting. That the 243 bullet in a 223 case- consider a faster twist for the heavier bullet options. It seems to be popular- cases are available commercially, too (at Midway right now).

I changed my mind about wildcating a cartridge. Expense was too great for the end application when other more common rounds are readily available that would more easily fit into the budget. Wildcats are hard to get your money back out of if you ever decide to sell them, too- unless you find someone in your current frame of mind!

Right now- in the place of that idea is my 22 Hornet! A rifle in 221 Fireball is being considered also. Different enough, and "good enough for the girl that I go with." :grin:

[lylejb]

I want to bump my 300 win mag to 358 dia- 35 cal. Has that been done?

See 358 norma mag.

Slightly less body taper (fatter shoulder) IIRC, than the 300 win mag ( like .060), slightly shorter neck ( like .030)

My neighbor has a 308 norma mag, so I recently got some education on what it takes to make norma brass. Actually, not much. start with 338 win mag brass and punch them through the FL sizer die.

IIRC Bullshop has a 358 norma, might talk to him

[358wcf]

Did this little number back in the '80s on a tiny little Sako action, had a Shilen 24" sporter barrel installed, RCBS made me some custom dies, 10x Leupold, custom Bastogne Walnut (Calif) stock, a beauty to behold. With WW 748 and 80gr j-bullets, it would do about 2900fps, putting them info .350groups all day long. Took many an Idaho rockchuck and Calif groundsquirrel (diggers) over the years together. Traded the little rifle off for some stupid reason 15 years ago-- wish I never did that!! These days I don't let go of firearms for any reason!
The little case had a really long neck, and would probably be about the best 6mm cast boolit shooter out there, but, I was into long-range varmints in those days-- no more, unless I see one while using my Martini 310 with iron sights and lead boolits!
Small cartidges are a lot of fun if you don't ask too much of them. Keep the pressures down and have fun!!

358wcf [smilie=1:[smilie=1:[smilie=1:

[trk]

It occured to me the .223 Rem. might be a fun one to neck up,
...
Is there already a 6.5/.223? Would that even work?
...

I just got back (from the 'smith) my Ruger #3 in 7-08. He shorted the bbl and rechambered to 7 TCU with 1 degree throat. Loooong cast bullets engrave nicely. The gun when I got it (in 7-08) did a under-1/2" group at 100yds on it's first trip to the range wearing a 4x scope.

Just now at the point of setting up a couple of hundred rounds to play with. Got a couple of 7mm gas-checked moulds but will likely get a plain-based one made (or make it myself) as I want to shoot this in competition.

So much to do, so little time.

There's a list of AR-15 conversion calibers as long as your arm.

[GabbyM]

******* Is there already a 6.5/.223? Would that even work? It just seems to me the small case with a bigger boolit would be a good cb cartridge. Am I way behind the curve? EDIT; Could I make a .222 based wildcat (6.5/.222) from .223 brass? Then I'd have a longer neck.

Here is what I found on a 6.5 x 223 called 6.5 TCU.
Personaly for a rifle I think you run out of powder capacity with a 6.5mm and would stay with a 6mm. If you click on the link there's load data for 14" contender barrels. remember with cast bolits you'd have to reduce the pressure. pacific list the reamers here http://www.pacifictoolandgauge.com/products/reamers/chamber.htm

clipped

http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/w65mmtcu.html

The 6.5mm TCU is easily converted from commercial 223 cases by simply running a tapered expander through the case neck. Fireforming is accomplished with a slightly reduced load. The finished case is exactly reminiscent of the Ackley line of Improved cartridges and features just about the same body taper and exactly the same shoulder angle. Due to the larger neck diameter, compared to the parent case, case neck length is increased and provides adequate purchase to properly secure the larger, longer bullets. Silhouette shooters have found that this cartridge is marginal for topping the distant ram target; some hits do not result in a felled target. For this reason popularity has been limited in that sport. The 6.5mm TCU does, however, provide excellent varmint results with comparatively mild recoil. Many good bullets are available for that purpose.

[DrNick]

7mm Horton

[bearcove]

I want to bump my 300 win mag to 358 dia- 35 cal. Has that been done?

That's a 358 norma mag.

[Rockydog]

I've been playing with a 6mm TCU Contender Carbine for over a year. It's very accurate and shoots bullets about 10 grains heavier than a .223 at .223 velocities due to reduced pressures in the larger bore. If I had it to do over though I'd choose a 6X45 (AKA 6mm- .223.) The TCU case has less taper and has a tendency to stick in reloading dies. It's also very easy to set the shoulder too far back and end up with headspace issues while fireforming the TCU. The shoulder issues are not a problem with the 6X45 as they do not change from the .223 shoulder. The TCU is wickedly accurate though with PD kills to .300 yds. This was with J bullets. I just started loading some 6mm loverin cast bullets last week and hope to get to the range over the weekend. Started with 7 gr. Trail Boss and loaded a half dozen in various weights up to 10 gr. We'll see how it goes. RD

[dk17hmr]

6x47 and 6.5x47 wildcats have been used by highpower shooters in the past. The 300 Whisper/Fireball is 223 necked up to 30 cal. They are out there if you need to have an excuse to have one.

I want to say the x47's are on the 222 magnum case.

I have a 6x45 which is a 6mm/223. I actually made my first 100 rounds of brass tonight with a 243 expander button in my 223 dies. Trimmed the brass enough to square up the case mouth and it looks like it will be good to go.

The 300 whisper/fireball was made from 221 fireball but lots of guys use 223/556 and trim it down....which is my plan when I get one built.

20 Tactical, 19 Calhoon, 223 AI, 6x45 AI all come to mind.

6x45 has lots of good buzz as a varmint and medium game round, thats is why I added it to my AR collection.

[Mohillbilly]

I considered the re barreling a Ruger mini 14 to 9mm and cutting the neck off the .223 for a rather long "Super 9" of some sort.

[stubshaft]

Rocky - You've got it backwards. When you neck-up to a larger caliber you make the neck longer... it goes down the shoulder farther.

Rocky got it right. If you neck up a case you shorten it. The material will also get thinner. When you neck it down you thicken the neck and lengthen the brass.

Think of it as a ballon. As you blow it up it shortens and as it deflates it lengthens.

[lmcollins]

We were not talking about the length of the case as a whole - we were talking about the length of the neck as a singular item. Read Rocky again.

[hhranch]

I got this bug back in the early 90's and had a 25-222 Magnum (.25x47) built up on a Sako action with the intention of using it as a light deer rifle for our antlerless season here in Kansas. I used the lightest barrel Shilen made, and the shortest twist (1"x10"), but unfortunately specified that the throat be long enough to accommodate a 100 gr Nosler partition bullet seated to the base of the neck. I say unfortunately, because the resulting round was too long to work through the magazine, and shorter loaded rounds suffered in the accuracy department.

Eventually I had the rifle rebarreled to .25x.222 which was a much better fit in the small Sako action, and used it successfully with 80 and 90 grain Barnes X bullets to take several deer. My best load used H-335 and the Nosler 85gr BT, which grouped well at 100 yards, at about 2,700 fps, and really hit a coyote hard out to about 200 yards.

I did some work with 65 gr Lyman cast boolits to try to work up a squirrel load, and got them to shoot very well at 25 to 50 yards, but never was successful in getting them to shoot to a usable point of aim with the jacketed variety. Neverthesless, the cast boolits showed great promise, and hopefully one of these days I will have a chance to get back to this interesting project.

I will be glad to exchange further details with anyone that is interested.

[tommygirlMT]

I necked mine all the way up to 8mm size --- I cut the cases off right at the shoulder joint and then use a custom order neck size die I had Lee make me to put in the neck and slight shoulder.

I'm building and AR to accept the cartridge. Been test shooting them out of an old 8mm Mauser with a chamber insert to accept the smaller cartridge for testing purposes.

http://forums.handloads.com/uploads/tommygirlMT/2009-10-20_080248_8mm_Carbine_Wild-Cat_01.JPG

Yah --- yah --- yah --- I know the photo shows a condum bullet instead of a real boolit but that was my initial "test of concept" dummy round and the only picture I have taken of it so far.

[bruce drake]

Doug,

Who made your 6x45 upper?

I'm getting ready to rebarrel one of my ARs into that caliber but I'm running into a shortage of barrels with a couple of companies I've contacted.

Tommygirl - You are right that you've got a minimal shoulder! What are the FPS are you getting with that condom bullet?!?!

Bruce

Bruce

[JSH]

"The TCU case has less taper and has a tendency to stick in reloading dies. It's also very easy to set the shoulder too far back and end up with headspace issues while fireforming the TCU. The shoulder issues are not a problem with the 6X45 as they do not change from the .223 shoulder."

I have been shooting a 6TCU or a 6-223 or both for 20 years and never had an issue as described above. That is like saying a 16" tire is better than a 15" because I had a flat tire once on a 15".
The only real difference in performance is case life. Though I will say that should really never be an issue with either, but the TCU's straight walled body lends it to be a bit better. I have split a neck or two but never enough to mention.
When fooling with a wildcat one has to remember it is not a standard case. Every time a barrel is chambered you are at the mercy of the reamer mfg and the smith. It is a custom fitting of brass on every gun, short of having your own reamer and using it each time.
If brass is sticking in a die, you either have a die issue or don't have it set properly, for that specific gun.
As to using up "free" brass. When "moving" much brass in a wildcat. Free cases can be used for intial die set up, but virgin cases or once fired, are a persons best bet for less headaches.
I have ran the 6,6.5,7 and 30 calibers in the 223 case. The 6 being a favorite and the 7 being second. I cant comment on the 6.5 as i am just getting geared up for it as i type.
The 30 was my least favorite. I tried running it sub sonic with heavy bullets and found it to be a less than favorable for me. I did however run it up to super sonic and found a load or two that would shoot well, but not good or excellent.
In a 6TCU or 6-223, H335 and a 60-80 grain FLGC bullet is my go to powder.
jeff

[Rockydog]

JSH, No sarcasm intended here. Your comments are probably right on the money. I guess I shouldn't make general comments based on personal experience. All I know is that I've been reloading for nearly 30 years including various wildcats and military stuff. The 6TCU was the most miserable SOB I've ever worked with. Stuck case after stuck case until I lightly honed my die with jewelers polishing compound and switched case lubes. I also had headspacing problems which were eventually traced to Contenderitis. Reenforcing your point about cases not being formed to fit the gun. All that being said, after all the headaches, it's the most fun to shoot of any cartridge I've ever loaded using both J and cast. I still feel that the 6x45 would yield less headaches just due to general cartridge shape. Thanks for pointing out the errors in my post so I could set the record straight. Sometimes I shouldn't post so late at night when I'm tired. RD

[JSH]

rockydog, I had a fair amount of issues whenIi first started working with wildcats. The old gent who had helped me, actaully who pushed me towards them to try, has been gone a good many years. He had his own thoughts and ways on them and I question some of them even still.
Mentioning TC in the above, answered a lot of things. I have had custom and factory barrels chambered for both of the 6's. I had things come up with both that you mention. The rounded rather than sharp shoulder was one of them. I didn't have maybe more than10-20 over the roughly 2K of brass I formed. I even tied to fire form them a second time and they just never would "clean" up so they were tossed.
I eventually annealed all of the brass where there was going to be a lot of material moving and the problem went away. Off the top of my head I had ZERO problems with milsurp 223, BUT, I always annealed it. That is why I started annealing even virgin brass.
I am down to one of the above mentioned, a 6-223 on an XP platform. I have had this one for about 10 years and doubt i will part ways with it. I do have another donor action and am up in the air to go either witha 223AI with a slow twist or a6TCU. I have run the TCU from 55-s through the 105's and find it a dandy for up to 80 grianers. Sorry gents all FLGC stuff as I crowd them fairly hard.
jeff

[dk17hmr]

Doug,

Who made your 6x45 upper?

Bruce

I am bad at following threads I post on. I bought the upper as a whole, but found out it was for a large pin colt.....So I saved the barrel and gas system from it and put together my own upper, I have to tools required to do so. The barrel was made by Mark Chanlynn from Rocky Mountain Rifle works, I bought the upper from his buisness partner. I have yet to shoot it as I just finished it up tonight after work, its ready to hit the bench.

[bruce drake]

The barrel was made by Mark Chanlynn from Rocky Mountain Rifle works, I bought the upper from his buisness partner. I have yet to shoot it as I just finished it up tonight after work, its ready to hit the bench.

Could you PM me his contact information?

Thanks.

Bruce

[Drphilwv]

So this was some time ago but did you ever finish the 8mmx223 AR? Wondered if you had reamers etc. made up.


I necked mine all the way up to 8mm size --- I cut the cases off right at the shoulder joint and then use a custom order neck size die I had Lee make me to put in the neck and slight shoulder.

I'm building and AR to accept the cartridge. Been test shooting them out of an old 8mm Mauser with a chamber insert to accept the smaller cartridge for testing purposes.

http://forums.handloads.com/uploads/tommygirlMT/2009-10-20_080248_8mm_Carbine_Wild-Cat_01.JPG

Yah --- yah --- yah --- I know the photo shows a condum bullet instead of a real boolit but that was my initial "test of concept" dummy round and the only picture I have taken of it so far.

[MT Gianni]

Profile shows no activity since 2012, I doubt you will get an answer.