Yhe perfect marksman

[Beekeeper]

Monday while I was at the range a gentleman came and set up about 3 stalls away from me.
He rolled out his mat and placed his gun and its tripod on it.
Got out his book
Similar to the ones marine snipers have.
Took out his rangefinder , ranged the gongs at 400 yards , adjusted his scope and rang the gong 10 out of 10 times,\.
We spent some time talking and he wanted to hear about hand loading. Said he had never done it but at $3.00 a round he was getting ready for it.
Said he could only afford to shoot 10 at a time this way.
Only owns 1 gun and doesn't want any more.
Was very interested in my old 71/84 and the fact it was 130 years old and the sights went out to 1400 yards.Wanted to know if I had ever shot it that far.
Told him this was the first time I had ever shot it since building it and he was amazed you could even find parts.
Enjoyed talking to him and hope to see him again and maybe learn something about his rifle and maybe get him started reloading.

Jim

[montana_charlie]

Monday while I was at the range a gentleman came and set up about 3 stalls away from me.
He rolled out his mat and placed his gun and its tripod on it.

Took out his rangefinder , ranged the gongs at 400 yards , adjusted his scope and rang the gong 10 out of 10 times,\.

Only owns 1 gun and doesn't want any more.
Mike Venturino should be introduced to that guy.
CM

[jr545]

Something my father always said was "Beware the man with one gun. Chances are he knows how to use it".
I have a safe full.....:confused:

[Larry Gibson]

Something my father always said was "Beware the man with one gun. Chances are he knows how to use it".
I have a safe full.....:confused:

That quip sounds good but frankly it isn't true. I know many, many with only "one gun" (in this case lets pretend it's a rifle as that is what the thread is about but it also applies to handguns). The "one rifle" sit's in the back of a closet and only comes out maybe twice a year. Once to "zero" the rifle which amounts to coming close to a rock or tin can in some gravel pit or at most hitting a generous sized paper target. The target is sometimes at 100 yards but mostly at 25 - 50 yards. Then the rifle is taken "hunting" but mostly is just carried. Total expendature of rounds fired is less than 20, probably more like 5 - 10. Actual targets hit (point of aim) is more often one or less. Skill displayed at marksmanship or weaponscraft is zero. Those who have a magnum rifle as that "one rifle" fair even worse.

On the other hand I also know of many, many who have several if not numerous rifles. They may go to the range and shoot them reasonably well from the bench or prone position. They may even zero them quite well. Yet most of them when off the bench also have little skill at marksmanship or weaponscraft. When position shooting or field shooting they are almost hopeless in their limited marksmanship abilities.

There are a few, the number is relatively small, who can take most any rifle and shoot it well from the bench and also quite readily from the offhand, squatting, kneeling, sitting and prone positions either on the range or in the field.

Of the above the first is simply a gun owner, the second is simply a gun shooter but it is the third who can take any rifle and shoot it effectively (within the rifle/cartridges limitations) under any conditions that is, or comes close to being,"the perfect marksman".

Larry Gibson

[montana_charlie]

Of the above the first is simply a gun owner, the second is simply a gun shooter but it is the third who can take any rifle and shoot it effectively (within the rifle/cartridges limitations) under any conditions that is, or comes close to being,"the perfect marksman".
So, where do you put the gentleman in Beekeeper's anecdote?
As a quiet type with limited funds for shooting, his trips to the range are limited in number and length...not the kind of person you are likely to run into.
Perhaps the population he belongs to is larger than you imagine.

Additionally, it's a fact that the 'one rifle...knows how to use it' saying is very old.
It came about long before today's multitude of city dwellers with the single neglected long gun in the back of the closet.

From my own experience, the man with one 'treasured' rifle is more likely to use it better, than the proud owner of a 'collection' can use any one of his.
CM

[Bad Water Bill]

I have known MANY hunters from the north woods. They could not afford to use up ammo like we do today just because we can reload. Off to the gravel pit to check the sights with ONE shot. They brought home the venison every year with one shot. The saying went if someone needed over 2 rounds he did not belong in the woods.

I have one cousin's 22 HI Power that kept him in venison for many years one shot at a time.

[AZ-Stew]

There are a few, the number is relatively small, who can take most any rifle and shoot it well from the bench and also quite readily from the offhand, squatting, kneeling, sitting and prone positions either on the range or in the field.

Larry Gibson

Well, that leaves me out. I cant even get into those positions any more. And once I get into the prone position the knees give me He** trying to get back up to "offhand".

Regards,

Stew

[mroliver77]

How does one become a marksman without expending much ammunition?
Jay

[Larry Gibson]

montana_charlie

"So, where do you put the gentleman in Beekeeper's anecdote?
As a quiet type with limited funds for shooting, his trips to the range are limited in number and length...not the kind of person you are likely to run into.
Perhaps the population he belongs to is larger than you imagine."

It is hard to say whether he is a shooter or marksman from the limited description. However, from the description it is obvious he is one or the other and if I had to guess I would say he is a shooter as prone with a bipod at known distance isn't much different than shooting off the bench.

"Additionally, it's a fact that the 'one rifle...knows how to use it' saying is very old.
It came about long before today's multitude of city dwellers with the single neglected long gun in the back of the closet."

If one researches marksmanship ability back in the "olden times" one will find it to be not any better than today. Only difference is the "single neglected long gun" of the time was hung over the fireplace or along side the door.

"From my own experience, the man with one 'treasured' rifle is more likely to use it better, than the proud owner of a 'collection' can use any one of his."

While I respect your experience my point was that the one gun owner of today seldom "treasures" that one gun. To the contrary the many with a "collection" will treasure them. Keep in mind I did not say that the number of guns owned made the marksman. It is skill that makes the marksman. A person owning only one long gun can indeed be very skillfull with it. The same is true if he owns many guns, he will be a skillful marksman with all of them. Bottom line is the fact of only owning one gun makes for a marksman is incorrect. It is a cute quip but incorrect most of the time none the less. That is my experience.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

How does one become a marksman without expending much ammunition?
Jay

There are exercise and drill one can do to improve one's skill at mastering the fundementals of marksmanship. However, as in taking a corresponence course to be a pilot, you can read about it or play in a simulator all you want but you still are going to be a good pilot until you fly a lot. It is the same thing with shooting, you must practice by actually shooting to develop marksmanship skill.

Another nice quip that is not necessarily true that might be applicable to my answer is that; "practice makes perfect". Practice does not make perfect, it only perfects. If you are shooting incorrectly then you will only perfect what you are doing wrong. For example if you are shooting a magnum rifle and are flinching because you have a poor position and holding the rifle incorrectly so it "kicks" you hard. Continuing to shoot while flinching from getting kicked will not improve accuracy. What will improve accuracy is learning to get into a proper position and correctly holding the rifle so the recoil is controlable.

Position and correct hold are part of the fundementals of marksmanship. Once you learn those fundementals then practicing them will increase your marksmanship skills. Once you have mastered the fundementals of marksmanship through correct practice then whether you own rifle or 50 rifles you will be able to shoot all of them well.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

I have known MANY hunters from the north woods. They could not afford to use up ammo like we do today just because we can reload. Off to the gravel pit to check the sights with ONE shot. They brought home the venison every year with one shot. The saying went if someone needed over 2 rounds he did not belong in the woods.

I have one cousin's 22 HI Power that kept him in venison for many years one shot at a time.

Some where along the line those individuals learned how to shoot; father, uncle, school, boy scouts or perhaps the military. Simply owning one rifle did not make them marksmen, learning how to shoot with minimal skill did not make them marksmen either. More importantly they learned how to hunt and get close to the game.

At any rate is is a nice quip and I've used it myself even though I don't believe it.

Larry Gibson

[Beekeeper]

Geez,
I only wanted to tell of my experience at the range the other day.
Now it seems to have fallen into who did what to who and when!

The gentleman in question did not seem to be someone who left it in the closet or in the safe at any time.
My impression of him was he very well knew his weapon and knew how to use it and what it was for.
He struck me as someone who was or had been in the position to have to have had to use it or one like it for real at some time.
The idea that Mr. Gibson put forth that he was not someone who could use the weapon on anything other than a bench or at a range leaves me with a lesser impression of Mr. Gibson.

Maybe Mr.Gibson is himself one of the bench or matt group. Or better maybe he is one of the group that has hundreds of weapons and talks a great story.Maybe he should join the hack writers in the gun rags as that seems to be his best bet.

Personally I enjoyed talking to the gentleman and found his knowledge emence (sp) when he talked about it and what it could and would do..
That in its self was enough for me.


Jim

[3006guns]

The main thing I noticed in the post was his developing interest in reloading...it should be encouraged, with a Lee Loader if nothing else. That's how I started my stepson with his .300 Savage. Wasn't long before he "needed" a regular press, dies, etc. Once this man discovers how much he can cut his costs, he'll be hooked like the rest of us!

[Blacksmith]

Jay

How does one become a marksman without expending much ammunition?

I know a young lady who has never shot a cartridge firearm in her life yet she is an excellent marksman. She learned shooting with Sporter Air Rifle graduated to Precision Air Rifle and has been shooting three position regularly and in competition for more than ten years. She went to Camp Perry last year and competed in Precision Air Rifle. She is now in college and hopes to make the college team next year.

She is an excellent markswoman and depending on how you define guns and ammunition has never shot a firearm. Yes if you handed her a big kicking Goloudenboomer she would have some learning to do but would probably out shoot most people. For those not familier with air rifle competition it is shot with iron sights, at a range of 10 meters (33 feet), and the ten ring is the size of the period at the end of this sentence(.)

Blacksmith

[montana_charlie]

While I respect your experience my point was that the one gun owner of today seldom "treasures" that one gun. To the contrary the many with a "collection" will treasure them.
Perhaps you are acquainted with more of 'today's' gun owners than I am. My 'circle' doesn't include many who have a battery of rifles, and the couple who do are more interested in the 'having' than the 'shooting' of them.

The one individual I am close with who is both a 'marksman' and a collector is still a 'one rifle' shooter. By that I mean he owns many rifles of historic value...but he actually uses just one rifle, which goes everywhere with him. It is only coincidental that he has a 'bug' for collecting rifles. He also collects stamps...and treasures them...but he can't write a letter that a fifth grade teacher would give a passing grade.

Bottom line is the fact of only owning one gun makes for a marksman is incorrect. It is a cute quip but incorrect most of the time none the less. That is my experience.
I ran into the reverse of that 'quip' soon after joining a well-known BPCR forum. The tag line of one member reads, "Beware the man with one rifle. He may not have enough interest in it to be competent!"

This is on a forum where the 'common brand' of rifle is so expensive the average owner nearly needs to sell his daughters into slavery to afford just one. The 'regular Joe' who scrapes up the price...and endures the lengthy waiting period (years long)...cannot help but to treasure his acquisition.
But, the tag line owner, and the members in that discussion group with the greatest 'presence', are all owners of several of that make...and quick to crow loudly whenever adding one or two more to the battery.

I found the apparent elitism of that view to be offensively elegantarian, but perhaps I am too sensitive. Nevertheless, knowing that man's attitude, I have avoided entering into discussions with him...and have no inclination to read any of the published works he has authored.

I am disappointed to discover that his opinion is more common than I supposed.

CM

[Larry Gibson]

Jim

Holy cow! I did not disparage the gentlemen you were talking about at all. All I did was explain why I think the quip isn't true. The gentleman you are talking about obviously is good at what he does, nothing wrong with that. I didn't say there was anything wrong with any of the 3 groups because there isn't. I still think this is a free country and each of us can do as we want. If anyone wants to be a one gun in the closet guy or a shooter or a marksman then so be it.

I never put forth any idea that "was not someone who could use the weapon on anything other than a bench or at a range". To the contrary i said it was difficult to tell whether he was a shooter or a marksman. Both of those I stated in my first response could shoot and could handle their rifle.

Your impression of me is incorrect. Perhaps if you get up to western Washington some time or I get down to Arizona (I work real hard at staying out of California) we can get together for some shooting. You might really want hold off on your impression until you really see me shoot or at least know something of me. Once again, I'm glad you enjoyed the conversation with the gentleman and hope you understand my remarks are in context of the quip, not the gentleman. My apologies if you took it any other way.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Blacksmith

I concur, the young lady is a marksman. The fundamentals of marksmanship apply to shooting air rifles as well and I've no doubt she would transition to a reasonable firearm with little difficulty. I should have mentioned air rifles to mrollover77. Thanks for bringing those up.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Montana Charlie

I found that "reverse quip" somewhat amusing:-) It's not necessarily true either but it does have it's point. My point to this whole discussion is that the number of guns owned has nothing to do with anyone's marksmanship ability. It is a skill that is learned and has nothing to do with owning 1 firearm or a thousand.

Larry Gibson

[mroliver77]

Good grief!! It was a rhetorical question! I do consider bb, pellets, round ball or rocks in a slingshot ammunition.
Jay

[GOPHER SLAYER]

It seems some people are just naturally good shots with pistol, rifle or shotgun. I found that my wife was an excellent pistol shot by chance. We had been married for several years. We were camped in the camp ground known as Butterfield Country built on the old Vail ranch close to Temecula, Ca. We were up on a plateau by ourselves. It was a week day and few people were around. We were sitting out side the camper and I was shooting a .22 cal. air pistol. I was trying to shoot the stem of a dandilion, without success, when my wife said let me try. To my surprise she cut it the first shot. It turned out she was a great pistol shot. Unfortunately I could never get her to shoot at a range. I even tried to pay her to shoot but to no avail. I knew one man who was a great shot with any weapon he picked up. He shot on the Army reserve team using the M14. His name was Gary Franklen. He would shot in big shotgun tournaments and win a TV or an expensive shotgun. He told me it was like taking candy from a baby. Easy for you to say.

[pmeisel]

Beekeeper, thanks for sharing. I am glad that gentleman enjoys his shooting and all of us can learn a little from that.....

[Mike Venturino]

I'm the fellow that offends Montana Charlie over on the Shiloh website and that's my tag line. I know plenty of one rifle owners here in Montana and they get them out and dust them off the evening before hunting season. They may or may not sight them in on a boulder the size of a Volkswagen and at worse they often kill other hunters with their idiot ways or at best shoot the legs off some poor critter.

Charlie is far too sensitive. That tag line was a joke to make fun of the old saying. There may be some absolute expert riflemen who only own one rifle. I've just never met them. The ones I personally know with the enthusiasm to become proficient shots own more than one rifle.

As for my own shooting skill, its ok but I'm not afraid to shoot in front of others. The only sport I compete in is BPCR Silhouette in which I shoot Master Class in Iron Sight and in Scope division I'm AAA Class. I won the Montana State Championship in 2000 and the Arizona State Scoped Championship in 2008. I'm one of those hacks that write for the rags that everyone says can't shoot except for a word processor.

That said, I'm far more proud of the fact that I SPOTTED in 2009 for the fellow that won BOTH Montana Scoped and Iron sight championships and another fellow who won the Arizona State Scoped Championship. And I spotted for Steve Garbe for three of his four wins as BPCR Silhouette National Champion.

And as for my "elitism" I currently own two Shiloh rifles, although I've owned over 30. One I paid for and the other I won at the 2006 National Championships for being the highest scorer firinng a Shiloh rifle. That was 9th place overall that year.

Larry Gibson, I'd like to meet you someday. You always come across well here. As for a few others, well all I can say is that some people pick the damnest things to get their panties wadded about about.

Mike Venturino

[Larry Gibson]

Mike

Be my pleasure. Now that I'm retired I'll get around to places I like more often, like Montana.

Larry Gibson

[leftiye]

You guys enjoy.

[Beekeeper]

The rifle is a 416 Barrett.
The gentleman shoots 10 rounds each week.
At $5.00 a round that is more than I would shoot if i owned it.
He is an expert at what he does.
I would like to see one of the disparagers on this thread hit 10 of 10 at 480 yards without any sighting in rounds.maybe they should try before condeming someone who can!


I gave him several current catalogs on reloading and will talk to him again about his rifle and reloading.
The Gentleman has a desire to learn reloading and I intend on helping him.
I have already sent to the cast boolits website and hope he comes as he will be a good addition I think.
Unlike me he didn't have to wait 40 years for someone to tell him about reloading and offer help.
As for the ones here who think they are somewhat elite being rag writers I wish you well in your retirement.

I find it strange that Mr Venturino has time to post here and not time to answer any e-mails asking info and direction with BPCR but I guess he only answers his personal friends like Larry Gibson




Jim

[steg]

GOPHER SLAYER I'm with you on that one my wife couldnt shoot a lick off of a bench, but off-hand she was fantastic, I can't hardly shoot off a bench, LOL.............steg

[deerslayer]

[QUOTE=Mike Venturino;862484]I'm the fellow that offends Montana Charlie over on the Shiloh website and that's my tag line. I know plenty of one rifle owners here in Montana and they get them out and dust them off the evening before hunting season. They may or may not sight them in on a boulder the size of a Volkswagen and at worse they often kill other hunters with their idiot ways or at best shoot the legs off some poor critter.

So Mr. Venturino when I sight in my slug gun what target size do you recomend and how accurate must I be? I am curious as to your answer because I do kill every deer I shoot at and I am not a marksmen or a bench rest shooter matter of fact I feel I am a poor shot and would like to get better. And on a side note I have watched people with proffesional swat/military training who were much better shots than me at the range, empty the gun and miss the deer leaving me to take it. Buck Fever its funny some miss some make it count??

[Mike Venturino]

Beekeeper: I have no idea as to what you are talking about. I have answered every e-mail I've ever received. That said I was in the hospital this winter for 10 days trying to stay alive. If someone e-mailed me then, and there were hundreds on the computer when I finally got home, then they may have fallen through the cracks. Today I just answered an Aussie fellow on this site that e-mailed me on March 21. I just saw it today when I checked in.

And Mr. Deerslayer: I have no idea how you should sight your slug gun nor at what range you should sight in and how well it should shoot. I've never used a shotgun with slugs so make no comment about such. If I was in your neck of the woods and going to hunt deer with a slug gun then I would be asking you those questions. But I don't see how that pertains to anything I said above.

As for the fellow shooting his rifle 10 rounds and hitting with all, my hat is off to him for having the enthusiasm to buy a quality rifle and learn it so well.

I have a young friend that I've known literally since the day he was born. He went into Iraq as a Marine sniper and then went back twice as a private contractor, the last time getting injured badly. We spent a day last spring before he went over the last time, with me teaching him a bit of reloading and then shooting up what we had put together that morning. He only owns two rifles and hopes to get a reloading set up going when he gets healed up.

By the way, although born and raised in Montana he has never killed a deer as if that counts for anything.

MLV

MLV

[pmeisel]

all I can say is that some people pick the damnest things to get their panties wadded about about.

That bears repeating... so I did. Too many decent shooters on here to have us all getting pissy with each other.

[deerslayer]

[QUOTE=Mike Venturino;862640]And Mr. Deerslayer: I have no idea how you should sight your slug gun nor at what range you should sight in and how well it should shoot. I've never used a shotgun with slugs so make no comment about such. If I was in your neck of the woods and going to hunt deer with a slug gun then I would be asking you those questions. But I don't see how that pertains to anything I said above.

Mr Venturino I simply asked the question of target size and accuracy needed to complete the hunt to see what you felt was necesary of a hunter. We have to hunt with shot guns here and I figure if I can keep it on a paper plate at 75 or 80 yards I can kill a deer. Your reference above of target size (volkswagon obviously being sarcastic) and safe and ethical hunting simply made me wonder if you felt one must be able to drive nails with their gun to harvest an animal. And I simply pointed out that some who are competent proffesional weapons experts simply cannot get past the Fever that they supposedly have been trained to over come.

[Mike Venturino]

Deerslayer: Well see, you have informed me because I had no idea as to what were common deer shooting ranges in Indiania, nor what you could expect from a shotgun with slugs. Minute of paper plate seems ok to me then.

I wish a lot more Montana hunters could hit a paper plate with their rifles.

MLV

[9.3X62AL]

From the tone and content of a few comments here, I'm glad that varmint seasons are here and trout season opens in 3 weeks. Maybe a few of us have been cooped up a bit too long--cabin fever, not buck fever.

Good to see ya stop by, MLV. I hope your health is improving right along. Ya gave us a scare, sir.

[giz189]

Hey Mike, never met you but glad to hear you are doing better. By the way I want that red and white shirt.

[deerslayer]

Mike, and other posters if an attitude came across in my above posts I sincerely apologize as none was intended. Maybe what i meant did not come across the right way when it was typed and I also probably misinterpeted Mr. Venturino's point of view. Please accept my apologies. Thanks Nate

[Larry Gibson]

Beekeeper

Perhaps you missed my respose to you; I stated "I did not disparage the gentlemen you were talking about at all. All I did was explain why I think the quip isn't true. The gentleman you are talking about obviously is good at what he does, nothing wrong with that."

I did not disparage the gentleman you're talking about nor did Mike. In fact if he can do that kink of shooting weekly then he is definatel a marksman for sure. Minute of paper plate is definately adequate for deer and 80-90 yards is probably a long shot for most rifle shooters who only use their one rifle once a year.

As to hitting "10 out of 10 at 480 yards without any sighting rounds" perhaps you are not familiar with a service rifle "Leg Match". That is a 50 shot course shot at 200, 300 and 600 yards with no sighters. The 200 yard is 10 shots off hand and 10 shots rapid fire sitting, the 300 yard is 10 shots rapid fire prone. the 600 is 20 shots slow fire prone. Did I mention that is with the use of a sling only, no bipod or rest? Oh, I alsmost forgot, it is also with iron issue type sights. I shoot master classification with an M14 and high master with a boltgun. That means I can "hit 10 out 10" without sighters. I do it at 800, 900 and 1000 yards also in Palma matches except those are 15 out of 15 shots. I'm sure Mike, with his several wins in major matches, does the same thing. Actually there are thousands of rifle match shooters who do it all the time. Mike and I are not exceptional rifleman by any means, there are many and I don't know any of them that only own one rifle either.

The only disagreement in this thread was with those who do not think the quip "beware the man with only one rifle as he knows how to use it" (probably not quoted correctly but that is the jist of it) is not valid most of the time. That is not to say that there aren't some who own only one rifle who are not good shots, there are. It simply means some of us do not believe the premiss of the quip based on a lot of personal experience with a lot of one rifle owners.

Once again, the gentleman is obviously a good shot and no one has said he wasn't. Okay?

Larry Gibson

[Harter66]

Although I'm late here a bit I also have a shooting companion that shoots very well on the range , his wind doping skills are above average . When we shoot clays even he delivers the goods usually shooting over 20/25. I gotta tell you he gets in the field and has to have a sitting duck or a granite boulder to hit the right half of a 1oo yard deer. I've taken 5 deer and only shot 1 twice. To this day I don't know why that 1 didn't go down with its near perfect boiler house hit,she just stood there locked up. Point being my rifle ,my primary rifle(I've 5 hunt w1),shoots 5 into an inch more or less and I've never in 30 years shot a field position group smaller than 3" without reguard to rifle type or load usually upwards of 4.5".

Beekeeper I am pleased to know that you too have continued to recrute future handloaders . I'm working on 2 more as I write this.

As a personal thought , isn't the 460 Barret the necked to 458 50 BMG ? Being such ,isn't it odd to shoot an honest 1200 yrd rifle at just 400 for weekly proficency? Just me thinking out loud.

[deerslayer]

Back to the point of the thread, Beekeeper if I can help you with getting another person reloading let me know. The more the better

[Beekeeper]

Thanks Deerslayer,
Yes I think the 416 Barrett is a 1000 yard or more rifle.
The Gentleman told me he had been talked into it by a friend.
Was also his first and only rifle.That was one of the things that impressed me about him.
None of the usual hype about his weapon and its capabilities.
I hope to see him get the bull at 980 yards which is as far as our range goes.
At 800 he was doing great so not long I suspect.
Hope he has questions about reloading next time that I can help him with or else I will be aking a lot of questions here.

Jim