View Full Version : 12 guage sideXside

07-07-2006, 03:52 PM
got one on the way, supposed to be here next Tuesday the 11th. anyone got any pet loads the would like to share? just want to have fun with it, don't need a shoulder bruising load. It's a navy arms with 28 inch barrels.

thanks fellers


07-10-2006, 11:48 AM
.............HA! When I was a teenager I shot my great grandpa's Wm Moore 12 ga double quite a bit, but I sure didn't generate any worthwhile repeatable 'mentionworthy' results. Poured lino in a bucket of water for shot, and it looked like teardrops and icecycles. Newspaper for wads. One of Sam Fadala's books has a lot of ML shotgun info in it.


07-10-2006, 07:57 PM
First off a dram is 27.5 grains about. That should help some as most loads listed still use drams. For doves and blue rocks i used 75 grs of FFg or Fg powder and 1 1/8 oz of shot. This is good for 25-30 yards depending on choke. I loaded 1 thick hard card wad glued to a cushion wad and topped this with a thin card made of cork. You can also just use a regular overshot. For bigger game say rabbits, pheasants ect i went to 82 grains and 1 1/4 oz of shot and for turkeys i went to 92 grains and 1 1/2 oz of shot. The last load is a heavy hunting load and will let yu know when it goes off. I had to take the comb of the stock down on every N/A shotgun I ever owned to get them to shoot right for me.

07-11-2006, 01:29 AM
I hunted for several years with a Greener 12 gauge. Here is a really good reference on loading the muzzle loading shotgun:


Good luck!

07-23-2006, 05:28 PM
I have a Navy "magnum" 12 ga. Their manuals claim you can shoot all 10 & 12 ga loads in it & light 8 ga. No idea, I had to make new tumbler support plates for both locks. They were pot metal. (there were a couple different makers) I also installed screw in chokes (thin wall). I agree the later navy's are boxy, especailly in the wrist. I took a pound or so :o), of lumber off mine and it's much nicer to hold & shoot now. The barrels are very strong and can take heavy loads. I've shot skeet with 2.5 dr 7/8 oz loads up to turkeys with 4 dr 1 5/8 oz. I use a size heavier shot than I'd use with a smokeless gun, because of the lower velocities. My Navy also has a small bore (@ .720") so I use 13 ga fiber wads lubed lightly with soy wax. Turkey hunting I always use a card over the powder to keep the wad lube from contaminating it. With heavy loads, be sure to use a very tight good over shot card wad. I shot a big gobbler in Apr with mine (#5's) and as I stood up to go get him, the shot from the other barrel rolled out the muzzle. Now I use a full over powder card on the shot.
You'll love ML shotgunning. Goog hunting !

05-09-2017, 09:33 AM
I have a Navy "magnum" 12 ga. Their manuals claim you can shoot all 10 & 12 ga loads in it & light 8 ga. No idea, I had to make new tumbler support plates for both locks. They were pot metal. (there were a couple different makers)
Greg I had the same experience with the broken lock parts & found that the Pedersoli lock parts were dimensionally eye-dentical. For $44.00 each, I fixed the locks & wound up using my original N.R. Davis anyway since it fit me better & scared the doves to death in a way I couldn't argue with.

I found the best shooting stuff to be Alliant Black MZ. I do like a guy once showed me & never ever ( not even once) had a misfire using #11 Remington caps. I just load a blank charge and fire that off first to clear out the bores. Load it using the V. M. Starr method and a .135 nitro card both over the powder and the shot. Could be I miss so badly with the supposedly donut patterns that I hit them with the fringes? Also, never clean between shots either. This seems to work so can't argue with success. The Black M Z loads the same as 2f black Goex. Sportsman's Warehouse had a sale on the Black MZ a couple of years ago for $9.99 a pound but now it's back up there $28.00 +..?!

I tried 777 but wasn't so lucky as it was too hard to reliably set off & I had fouling & rusting issues with Pyrodex. Some guys love the stuff but my guns were all made with high rust content steel apparently and the blast frequency of Pyrodex must be just the stuff to shake it loose & deposit it in the bore??

05-10-2017, 04:55 AM
Nice thread here

charlie b
05-11-2017, 02:03 PM
Can you use modern plastic wads with a ML?

05-12-2017, 08:04 AM
This load was AMAZING in my New Englander 12 Gauge Barrel, it patterned as well as my Benelli Nova with a Turkey tube in it! I used 80 Grains of 2F powder, 1-1/8 OZ Shot, pour your powder in, and seat 4-5 of the little thin overshot cards on the charge, start another overshot card and push it about 2-3 inches down, dump your shot in, sprinkle corn muffin mix into the shot, tap the barrel to allow the muffin mix to settle between the shot (acts as a buffer to the shot, less deformation) start another overshot card and then send the shot to the powder charge. Notice the ONLY cards i mention are the little thin OverShot Cards? I found i got a doughnut hole in my pattern using the big fibre wads and Powder wads. The little thin overshot cards are so lightweight that they 'fly away' at the muzzle, where the bigger heavy cards/wads follow the shot (My belief is the heavy over powder wad 'passes' the shot up for a little ways, pushing a whole in the center of the pattern causing the doughnut hole) My dad uses Bees Nest with the same great results as the thin overshot cards. P.S. If you poke a very Small needle hole in the cards, they seat a WHOLE BUNCH easier that way! I did this a BUNCH with zero effect, or problems of any kind. Ive read of escaped gasses around a card 'fusing' the shot, I personally would have to see this in person to believe it. I can tell you that i never had anything like that happen

05-12-2017, 08:12 AM
Can you use modern plastic wads with a ML?

Yep you sure can, and they work great! Just not very traditional, and some dont like to clean the plastic from the bore. Products like Proshot Barrel/Choke cleaner make that EASY, so not a big deal. I use to compete Trap Shoot, i shot an Average of 100 Shells an event, practice evenings i would shoot 50-100, The plastic Wad build up was EASILY removed with the above mentioned product, i did that after every 100 rounds

Same would apply to guys that worry of shooting Poly Wads, i cant see ANY kind of issue removing the build up with the cleaners we have available.

05-12-2017, 09:12 AM
I have used the cup part only on top of a nitro card & got none of the plastic fouling people talk about. Have not tried the complete wad with cup on the powder though. Trouble is on the original guns I usually shoot, the gauges aren't your standard gauges. I do have a couple of modern ones that I'll have to try out.

05-12-2017, 03:52 PM
Will have to try that. I used just one .135 nitro-card & had good luck with that. One over powder & one on top of shot. No cushion wads at all. They say the shot imbeds into them.

05-12-2017, 09:45 PM
Will have to try that. I used just one .135 nitro-card & had good luck with that. One over powder & one on top of shot. No cushion wads at all. They say the shot imbeds into them.

Newtire, Give the load data i mentioned above a try, Shoot a pattern board and see what you think? I think you will be impressed. It is ridiculously easy, all you use is the little thin overshot cards. I am CONFIDENT the "infamous" doughnut hole in the pattern is coming from either the Nitro card, Cushion Wad, or a Combination of both, i read a really neat article on this, the guy builds very high dollar BP Shotguns, the load data that I mentioned above came from him. He claimed that anything weighing more than even 1 single piece of lead shot could/would 'outrun' the shot for a short distance (blowing through the pattern causing the doughnut hole) i followed his load recommendation and it worked FLAWLESSLY, My patterns were EXTREMELY IMPRESSIVE for a BP Shotgun. I wish i had taken pictures. I lost interest in BP shotguns and sold the barrel, cards, etc.

05-12-2017, 11:18 PM
Here is a good read if i can figure out how to link?


05-13-2017, 12:29 AM
Here is the actual article i read

Working up turkey loads for optimum pattern density.

In reading about recommendations for loading shot in smoothbores, we often come across references to the use of fiber wads, felt wads and heavy over-powder cards. Far be it from us to pretend that we know it all when it comes to shooting shot loads. However, it seems to be clear and reasonable when you stop and consider this; if the component over the powder is heavier than any individual shot pellet, it is very possible that the heavy component will overtake the shot charge after it leaves the muzzle and hit it. This quite often results in splotchy patterns or donut hole patterns. Sound familiar? If you've suffered this occurrence, here is a loading tip that might help put a longbeard on the table. This pertains to cylinder bore guns, but can be used in choked guns also. We recommend using only over-shot cards on the POWDER charge, if you want a tight pattern . The reason is that the light cards, say 3 or 4, seal the gases upon ignition and as they exit the muzzle, being light, they don't follow the charge and disturb it. They tend to go to the sides and leave the charge flying straight. If you desire a tight pattern for turkeys, purchase either nickel-plated, copper-plated, bismuth or any other HARD shot (not steel) of your choice. The reason for hard shot is this. If a round pellet stays round, it will fly straight. And by extension, 500 round pellets will fly straight if they stay round. When they get flattened or mis-shaped by the crush of the powder igniting, they will not fly straight and you will get many flyers. Bismuth may be the best because it is almost as dense and heavy as lead shot and almost as hard as steel. So it has the penetration of lead, but stays round for true flight to the target.

As you may know, I jug choke smoothbore barrels for optimum pattern density and it simplifies working up a good load greatly. However, if you're dealing with a cylinder bore barrel, in other words no choke is present, this will make your loading procedure much more efficient.

The suggested loading procedure for maximum pattern density is this;

Using your shot dipper as a powder measure, pour down a set amount ( example; 1 1/8 oz of volume for a 20 ga.), then seat 3-4 overshot cards on the powder to pack it and push out any air. Then take a single overshot card and push it down the bore approx. 3 inches. Now, take that same volume of shot, as used for the powder measuring, and drop it down onto the card where it will be visible. Then take a dipper full of cornmeal muffin mix ( not straight corn meal) and drop onto the shot. Tap the side of the barrel ( keep head and eyes from in front of muzzle!) until the shot works it's way to the top and the cornmeal has worked down into the shot charge. This will provide a buffering element so that when the powder ignites, the shot will push against the meal not the other shot pellets. Then place one overshot card on the shot load and seat it on the powder. The reason to use the muffin mix and not the straight corn meal is that there are sugars and fats added to the mixture that aren't present in the straight corn meal. Apparently, these pack somewhat and allow the charge to be bunched up for short distance from the muzzle, helping to give you a great pattern. We recommend using no. 7 or 7 1/2 size shot for turkeys for the pattern density. These size pellets will penetrate a gobbler's skull at 26-28 yards which is about as far as one should shoot at a turkey with a cylinder bore gun anyway. If this load does not give you a good pattern, try using one less increment of powder as thrown by your shot charger, so that you are using just a little more shot . If you are using choked guns, you can go to the bigger shot sizes. By all means experiment with your gun to see which loads pattern best for THAT PARTICULAR GUN. Sometimes, a gun will throw a better pattern when LESS shot and powder are used. And by using the corn muffin mix when you shoot a turkey, the bird is already smoked and breaded and ready for the frying pan when you pick it up.

05-14-2017, 12:44 AM
I have been shooting my Navy Arms Double Muzzle Loader since 1975 and have always followed this loading procedure with success.70 Grains 3f,A Felt Wad sandwiched between two Card Wads,11/4 Ounce of Shot and one Over Shot Card.I have converted to Military Top Hat Caps,I found the No 11s fiddly when in competitions.I make my own Fibre Wads using fibre strip used by the building Trade as Concrete Expansion Jointing.To Cut the Wads Make a Rotory Cutter used in a Drill Press the Cutter has a Spring inside that pops the Wad out.I use an ordinary Wad Punch for the Cards usually made from Cornflake Boxes.

charlie b
05-14-2017, 05:22 PM
I have used the cup part only on top of a nitro card & got none of the plastic fouling people talk about. Have not tried the complete wad with cup on the powder though. Trouble is on the original guns I usually shoot, the gauges aren't your standard gauges. I do have a couple of modern ones that I'll have to try out.
I only ask cause I have a 28ga with brass shells. Found that 20ga plastic wads fit perfect in the cases. They must choke down a bit going into the bore but they pattern well. Figured same might work with a ML

05-18-2017, 07:37 AM
http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s452/livebattery/Navy%20Arms%20Shotgun%20001_2.jpg (http://s1052.photobucket.com/user/livebattery/media/Navy%20Arms%20Shotgun%20001_2.jpg.html)
The Navy Arms Double Muzzle Loader refinished during the 1990s.It was necessary to shave some timber off the comb due to the Gun pointing upwards like a Trapgun.I can now look along the Barrel and it performs good.

05-18-2017, 08:03 AM
Very nice tint on that wood!

05-18-2017, 10:28 AM
Yes the colour is Alkanhet Root,I make up a Stain with the powdered Root,White Spirit (Paint Brush Cleaner) and Lamp Black from my Greenhouse Kerosene Heater.First I strip the Original finish down to Bare Wood using Paint Stripper,next I Whisker the wood with water and dry over a heat source,then sand using a fine Sandpaper until it stops Whiskering,I then apply the Alkanhet root white spirit Lamp Black Stain and allow it to soak in.Next mix Raw Linseed Oil with Alkanhet and some Driers (Terebin Paint Driers) apply that mix by dipping Wet and Dry Abrasive Paper into it and applying in a circular motion.This will give a fine finish and fill the pores in the Timber.Several coats are usually needed,whipe off excess and with the Palm of the Hand rub the surface in a circular motion.Do not allow a thick deposit of oil to set on the surface.The object is to have an Oil finish that has soaked in and is easy to maintain by applying a coat of finish occasionally.

Wayne Smith
05-18-2017, 04:37 PM
Only thing I would change of the above is to substitute Tung Oil (the real stuff - available raw from Woodcraft.com) for the Raw Linseed Oil. Tung oil competely polmerizes, Linseed Oil doesn't.

05-18-2017, 04:50 PM
I used some wood dye (vs stain) on a stock and got a color like that. Sure was an improvement over it's earlier finish.

Buckshot Bill
05-19-2017, 09:41 PM
I have had good luck with a simple load I use for hunting in all my 20's. Powder, 1/2" cushion, shot and another 1/2" cushion. These shred when fired and seem to have little effect on the pattern, it is also the load T/C recommended for their new Englander. I use equal volumes of shot and powder; about 80 grains worth, sometimes I'll stack a little extra shot in if I suspect I might need to take a longer shot.

It's a fast, efficient, and easy to load. Only have to carry 1 kind of wad into the woods.