Well, ****. Can't believe ATK would stab us in the back.

[ScottJ]

http://www.progunleaders.org/ammo/

The once fired mil brass is getting destroyed again. And this time ATK (builder of lots of reloading components, primers for one) is playing a hand in it.

[Lead Fred]

You cant let that high powered military stuff get in the hands of criminals, there would be carnage in the streets

:Fire::Fire::Fire:

[mike in co]

that process would appear to be against the "law"(rules regulations)...surlpus/excess materials in certain families of materials MUST go to a disposal site, and in the case of brass to auction.

the direct selling of brass would appear to violate that reg.


make some noise......

is it possible that the idiots in kalifornicate have an enviromental rule..??( i dont think so cuase i'm working on 7.62x51 out od ca rigth now)

the docs are dated 2008...any proof of current use ??


mike in co

[EMC45]

I believe this is old news gentleman. I believe it has already been settled that the brass would not be destroyed.

[Gohon]

No, it is not old news and it has nothing to do with California. It is also not a government conspiracy to keep brass out of the public hands. What it is, is a back door scheme by ATK to ensure they have a continuous and cheap supply of brass for their military contracts. When ATK took over the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant back in 2000, the plant was producing about 350 million rounds of ammo for the military each year. That has now expanded to 1.4 billion rounds annually which consists of 5.56mm, 7.62mm, .50-caliber, and 20mm cartridges, as well as ammunition links, which must be new brass, not reloads. So by taking the brass to a foundry and smelting it down they now have new brass stock. ATK takes a loss on purchasing the brass from the military bases but makes up the loss by not having to purchase raw brass on the open market. In reality it is a smart business move on ATK's part but it may be against the law the way sales of the brass from base commanders is returned to the base commanders.

Base Commanders are not suppose to have ready cash on hand. Their funds are controlled by congress and DOD which in reality is nothing more than paper work to the base comptroller where everything is bought by vouchers which are redeemed to DOD for cash. There may very well be some base commanders looking for new jobs when this is all over with. BTW, ATK's contract which expired this year was just extended by the Army for four more years.

[3006guns]

I've seen this on another forum also, and yes, it is an "end run" around the previous action to stop it.

I guess I'm basically stupid but ATK is the parent company of several reloading/shooting brands. Wouldn't it be better business to release the brass to shooters in order to promote the hobby and generate MORE business....?

I've been to at least two government facilities where brass/ammo and some ordance is demilled or sold. The waste is awful. I stood there looking at a bathtub sized container (old rocket or bomb crate) overflowing with 9mm brass NOT FOR SALE to the public. I stepped on several sets of MG links laying on the ground. Signs everywhere proclaiming that it all belonged to Uncle Sam, despite how it looked. Really depressing............

[Heavy lead]

This is a simple fix, no more Unique, 2400, Reloder series, Federal, CCI, RCBS, etc. Unfortunately I use lots of these, but screw 'em. I'll buy Hodgdon, Accurate, Ramshot, IMR, Remington, Winchester and Wolf.

[wrinkles]

Last nights Shooting Gallery broadcasting from the shot show, had a guy from Federal announce that Federal was going to start selling new pistol and rifle brass for reloading.

[ScottJ]

This is a simple fix, no more Unique, 2400, Reloder series, Federal, CCI, RCBS, etc. Unfortunately I use lots of these, but screw 'em. I'll buy Hodgdon, Accurate, Ramshot, IMR, Remington, Winchester and Wolf.

Unfortunately I think it'll be hard to pull that off with primers.

I think ATK makes them for Winchester, CCI and Remington as well as Federal.

But yeah, I had just recently developed some loads with Bullseye (typically I've been a Winchester and Accurate powder guy). Now I get to re-develop with non-Alliant powders.

[ScottJ]

Correction. Looks line Winchester and Remington make their own primers.

ATK is CCI and Fed.

[ScottJ]

Oh and I nastygrammed ATK last night: atk.corporate@atk.com

[Harter66]

I work on a depot what you saw in the cans was "the tip o the burg"a few years ago we shipped railcars of unfired 50 cal to demil. And recently severaal truckloads of 06'LC Match too. You think a couple of tubs hurt ? Imagine every day for a month seeing 120,000 unfired LC65 Match cal 30 modle of 1906 in clips and bandleers M2 going to demil.

[Gohon]

No, it is not an "end run" around the previous action to stop the selling of military brass to the public. It is just ATK's strategy to get cheaper brass stock for their plant. The consequences may be less military brass for reloaders and we as reloaders may not like it but it is not some kind of conspiracy to to stop military brass sells to the public. No different than the battery companies cornering the market on used wheel weights for use in new batteries. Profit strategy is the driving force. The real question is whether the base commanders are acting in compliance of DOD directives.

[ChuckS1]

Back in the early '80s I taught at the US Army Quartermaster School. One of the classes I taught the new lieutenants included a video of smalls arms ammo manufacturing at Lake City. In the video, they showed how 5.56mm brass was made and how the rounds were manufactured, including the smelting of military brass. No brass is reloaded (or was, back then, I don't know now). Seeing as how we've got a shooting war going on, I really can't complain. Besides, I find plenty of brass at my local range for what I need in my .223 bolt action rifle. As I remember at Fort Hood and Grafenwoehr, we had to account for all the rounds we drew out of the ASP and returned the empty brass back to the ASP. Not so much a post (not "base") commander can do to circumvent any regulations on this, since ammunition is pretty tightly controlled and accounted for.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Our Job now is to find a good factual article on this from one of the major pro-gun groups and send it to everyone on our adress list who owns a gun, hunts, or cherishes the 2nd amendment. We can only hope this quickly informs Americans and alerts patriots very quickly to the dangers coming.

The one I sent out today was from a Montana gun rights group and it also indicated comrade bozo has decided the US will support the UN gun control measure(from a Reuters news clip) that has been rejected by previous administrations.

OF COURSE THIS IS OUR FIRST COMMUNIST ADMINISTRATION.

REMEMBER THE BULLDOZERS DESTROYING MOUNDS OF AUSTRALIAN RIFLES?

IT'S COMING. If they can ram HC down our throat, they can jam GC up our .......

BvT

[ScottJ]

Just noticed this statement on http://www.atk.com/ContactUs/contactus_corporate.asp


ATK Statement Regarding Once-Fired Brass Cases

ATK is a strong supporter of our armed forces, the shooting sports industry, second amendment rights and all of our customers who choose to reload ammunition. In fact, ATK is a leader in the reloading market. A dated brochure and presentation have caused confusion in the marketplace and do not reflect the views of our company and will be immediately withdrawn. As a service to our military customers, we routinely handle demil operations for various munitions and respond to requests from military installations for reclamation and recycling of military items. Each contract is awarded through the military installation’s procurement process. The installations received fair value for the brass.

ATK fully supports the provision passed by Congress last year to ensure that demilitarized spent brass casings remain available for civilian use.

[EMC45]

Thought this was old news......

[jdgabbard]

As I remember at Fort Hood and Grafenwoehr, we had to account for all the rounds we drew out of the ASP and returned the empty brass back to the ASP. Not so much a post (not "base") commander can do to circumvent any regulations on this, since ammunition is pretty tightly controlled and accounted for.

I'm still in the military. And there is a tight control on the turning in of brass. But believe it or not its not as tight as you would guess. All brass is weighed. And you're allowed a 10% variance of what the turn in should be. If you're not within the 10%, you just have to fill out some paper work testifying to the fact that all ammo was fired. Its not really that big of a deal. Right now I've got probably 250 military range pick ups that I plan on trimming and sizing down to 7.62x25 brass.... They are not really that strick...

[ChuckS1]

So you're the guy the QASAS was complaining to my training NCO about when he found all those rocks in the bottom of the 5.56mm crates...LOL...

[mike in co]

Just noticed this statement on http://www.atk.com/ContactUs/contactus_corporate.asp

please note they did not say they were not doing it. infact they say the government got paid ....


all brass should be open bid salvage......



we need a better answer from atk


that was a cowpattie two step...


mike in co

[leftiye]

Perzaktly, Double bubble!

[snuffy]

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=403920

ATK wants to have their cake and eat it too. They want a cheaper source of brass to load their contract obligation at the lake city plant, which is government owned, operated by them. Whoever is in charge at LC probably has orders to reduce cost/increase profits, simply follow the money trail.

ATK owns Speer, CCI, RCBS, and Federal all under the blount umbrella.

It's going to take a hellofalota pressure to get this changed. Perhaps if the two Montana Senators Baucus and Tester were to start yelling at ATK we would get some action.

http://www.ammoland.com/tag/atk/

[TCLouis]

That was the same BS statement from ATK in today's "Bullet Points" from NSSF.

Sounds like media/lawyer BS drivel to cover what they are really doing.

[snuffy]

Here's where to look for all of what they do;

http://www.atk.com/corporateoverview/corpover_armamentgroup.asp

Also, in that URL, there's this list of companies they own, if you feel better by NOT buying anything from them.

Major Products and Programs — Commercial

* Federal Premium and Estate Cartridge ammunition
* CCI, Speer, Lawman, and Blazer ammunition
* Gunslick, Outers and Shooters Ridge gun care and shooting accessories
* RCBS reloading equipment
* Champion clay targets
* Weaver mounting systems
* Alliant Powder and gun powders for sporting re-loaders and ammunition manufacturers
* Eagle Industries law enforcement tactical accessories

[DWM]

Here is the link from bullets points

http://campaign.constantcontact.com/render?v=001AOTdCtwnZM-kEPmDeh-ar9SsTzfvSQ9pAp7_h2feuVLgGZ_rKnO_LXGcKkeOybRj8arge VdkrEywinn-WmR7Uykh4S64K-LXRl1ttvAXLil_1xvnM3ShazzApa0mK2WguKFG4qhVKhbrUx8W jFQOEivwE9DycnV1U6bqkh0mOOmAfGi4i7e8pwsqJ_WVHz6WDb n7B4nQ8UTnQuAWzOx8_HyCiBbQ2WjQc_FFOhvUuaHC9756FDhT wKyzHLDs7gmETzgkqwqLpKPoMh9XIrAmIInXjzqCffbp_gid2f lPZg6mJapCYLo6W6-LBVLWtWBYfP75KemET2s%3D

as you can read : As a service to our military customers, we routinely handle demil operations for various munitions and respond to requests from military installations for reclamation and recycling of military items. Each contract is awarded through the military installation's procurement process
It's a service and they recycle the brass... OK all the demill companies can do the same??

Daniel

[mike in co]

It's a service and they recycle the brass... OK all the demill companies can do the same??

Daniel

sorry just politcal correct bs.....again its the bottom line. they are buying cheap, selling essentially to themselves and COSTING THE TAXPAYERS MONEY.

mike in co

[7of7]

"ATK fully supports the provision passed by Congress last year to ensure that demilitarized spent brass casings remain available for civilian use."

So they Demil the cases... doesn't that render them useless as far as reloading? I am sure the only difference between military brass and civilian brass is the crimped in primer.... I highly doubt that they are swaging the primer pockets for us...
This statement is very ambiguous.. and really doens't say anything. Yes the brass can be sold for civilian use, however, they have made it unsuitable for reloading... but, it can be used by the civilian market...(if they can melt it down and make new casings from it)

[mike in co]

"ATK fully supports the provision passed by Congress last year to ensure that demilitarized spent brass casings remain available for civilian use."

So they Demil the cases... doesn't that render them useless as far as reloading? I am sure the only difference between military brass and civilian brass is the crimped in primer.... I highly doubt that they are swaging the primer pockets for us...
This statement is very ambiguous.. and really doens't say anything. Yes the brass can be sold for civilian use, however, they have made it unsuitable for reloading... but, it can be used by the civilian market...(if they can melt it down and make new casings from it)


that is not quite what they are saying.

demil is not destroyed....just aproved for sale/civilian use. demil'd guns are made unusable, but the brass is just cases or pulled ammo..where the bullet, case and powder were sold in auction. i believe that powder is no longer sold.

they are saying its ok to sell at auctions, but we are still gonna steal( as in not pay market price for cartridge brass) as much brass as we can.

mike in co

[BeeMan]

Email sent to ATK:

Please forward this to whom it may concern, so that I
may receive a timely reply as noted below.

I am a concerned handloader who has repeatedly
purchased RCBS, Speer, CCI, Federal, and Alliant
reloading products. I just learned that elements
within ATK may have gone against the spirit of an
agreement to end the destruction of military surplus
brass. This brass historically been used available
as a component by many hand loaders, allowing them to
reallocate limited funds to procure additional tools
and components from ATK companies.

I have purchases pending for several reloading tools
and components. I would seeking clarification beyond
the general statement linked below. I need to know
that ATK is in no way violating the letter or spirit
of last year's agreement to re-instate the
availability of DOD surplus brass. Citizens and
companies who use this resource for legitimate
reloading and whose tax dollars paid for the original
purchase of the brass should expect nothing less.

http://www.atk.com/ContactUs/contactus_corporate.asp

I will be purchasing in early April and my sources
will be based significantly on ATK's response to this
email. I will also be posting this email and any
response from ATK in an online forum frequented by
many experienced hand loaders. I look forward to
this posting being favorable to both ATK and the
supporters of an industry which delivers revenue to ATK.

Respectfully,
xxx

Response received the next day:

Dear valued customer:

Thank you for bringing the scrap brass program information to our attention.

ATK is a strong supporter of our armed forces, the shooting sports industry, second amendment rights and all of our customers who choose to reload ammunition. In fact, ATK is a leader in the reloading market. A dated brochure and presentation have caused confusion in the marketplace and do not reflect the views of our company and will be immediately withdrawn. As a service to our military customers, we routinely handle demil operations for various munitions and respond to requests from military installations for reclamation and recycling of military items. Each contract is awarded through the military installation’s procurement process. The installations receive fair value for the brass.

ATK fully supports the provision passed by Congress last year to ensure that demilitarized spent brass casings remain available for civilian use.

We appreciate your support of our industry.

With a vague answer like this, I guess I'll be sourcing powders, primers, etc from companies not held by ATK. Doubt ATK will notice, but it is my choice in a free market. For the record I'll send this to a few ATK companies who will lose sales.

BeeMan

[mike in co]

Email sent to ATK:

Please forward this to whom it may concern, so that I
may receive a timely reply as noted below.

I am a concerned handloader who has repeatedly
purchased RCBS, Speer, CCI, Federal, and Alliant
reloading products. I just learned that elements
within ATK may have gone against the spirit of an
agreement to end the destruction of military surplus
brass. This brass historically been used available
as a component by many hand loaders, allowing them to
reallocate limited funds to procure additional tools
and components from ATK companies.

I have purchases pending for several reloading tools
and components. I would seeking clarification beyond
the general statement linked below. I need to know
that ATK is in no way violating the letter or spirit
of last year's agreement to re-instate the
availability of DOD surplus brass. Citizens and
companies who use this resource for legitimate
reloading and whose tax dollars paid for the original
purchase of the brass should expect nothing less.

http://www.atk.com/ContactUs/contactus_corporate.asp

I will be purchasing in early April and my sources
will be based significantly on ATK's response to this
email. I will also be posting this email and any
response from ATK in an online forum frequented by
many experienced hand loaders. I look forward to
this posting being favorable to both ATK and the
supporters of an industry which delivers revenue to ATK.

Respectfully,
xxx

Response received the next day:

Dear valued customer:

Thank you for bringing the scrap brass program information to our attention.

ATK is a strong supporter of our armed forces, the shooting sports industry, second amendment rights and all of our customers who choose to reload ammunition. In fact, ATK is a leader in the reloading market. A dated brochure and presentation have caused confusion in the marketplace and do not reflect the views of our company and will be immediately withdrawn. As a service to our military customers, we routinely handle demil operations for various munitions and respond to requests from military installations for reclamation and recycling of military items. Each contract is awarded through the military installation’s procurement process. The installations receive fair value for the brass.

ATK fully supports the provision passed by Congress last year to ensure that demilitarized spent brass casings remain available for civilian use.

We appreciate your support of our industry.

With a vague answer like this, I guess I'll be sourcing powders, primers, etc from companies not held by ATK. Doubt ATK will notice, but it is my choice in a free market. For the record I'll send this to a few ATK companies who will lose sales.

BeeMan


i agree...they are doing what is good for thier bottom linetoday, wiht no view of the future.
you need to understand that this is not about taking some brass out of circulation. some brass is still sold atr auction, but what atk is doping amounts to STEALING MONEY FROM THE TAXPAYERS. they are not paying market price for carteidge brass..they are stealing from you and me.

please everyone when you email them THIS IS ABOUT MONEY!
IT IS NOT ABOUT BRASS OUT OF CIRCULATION.
AS IN ALL THINGS WHEN YOU GET TO THE END
IT IS ABOUT THE MONEY!

mike in co

[PatMarlin]

Makes companies like good ol' LEE Precision look pretty good don't it?

Support them.

[fatnhappy]

No, it is not an "end run" around the previous action to stop the selling of military brass to the public. It is just ATK's strategy to get cheaper brass stock for their plant. The consequences may be less military brass for reloaders and we as reloaders may not like it but it is not some kind of conspiracy to to stop military brass sells to the public. No different than the battery companies cornering the market on used wheel weights for use in new batteries. Profit strategy is the driving force. The real question is whether the base commanders are acting in compliance of DOD directives.


Beyond that it's also a strategic move by ATK to drive up brass sales in its civilian product line, Federal. Absent milsurp brass, reloaders will have to purchase their brass from civilian sources.

[mike in co]

Beyond that it's also a strategic move by ATK to drive up brass sales in its civilian product line, Federal. Absent milsurp brass, reloaders will have to purchase their brass from civilian sources.

no. this is not true. there is still lots of brass for sale.
again folks this is not the issue
the issue is MONEY NOT ANYTHING ELSE.

atk is paying sup par rates and the money is not going to the taxpayers that originally paid for the brass.

it is about the moneyPERIOD