Nice reaction from my old Mauser.....

[Carteach0]

Thought I would share this....

As I discussed on another forum (http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=10252)

My 1916 Spanish Mauser Guardia Civil in 7.62x51 has an unusual
bore. While it looks to be in excellent condistion with little
to no wear, it has a tight chamber, extra large throat, and a bore
that slugs at .310"

Here is how it shoots with the load I tried today:

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h298/carteach0/casttarget.jpg

Made my day, I have to be honest. Open sights are getting harder
for my older eyes, and this rifle has sights that are just plain.... rough.

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h298/carteach0/riflingtouches.jpg

As shown, the bullet touches the rifling when chambered. Thats what I was
hoping.... and it still fits and functions perfectly. This photo shows a bit of
lead shaving, so that round was saved as a fouler. I don't have an expander
to bell the mouth, but I discovered a 'wiggle' of my press handle at just the right
moment will snuggle the bullet home without shaving.

All in all..... I am a happy camper today. Easy to please, aint I?

[StarMetal]

Carteach,

Nice shooting. Hey if anything a pair of needle nose pliers (in closed position) make a nice little flare on the mouth of the case. That will let your bullet glide in better. If you have a lathe or a drill press you can make a tapered rod.

Joe

[Buckshot]

................Good work. Groups like that tell me the rifle and load CAN shoot. The easy part is over. To tighten that up becomes the harder 'detail' part of the operation.

................Buckshot

[Ben]

To get a nice " soft flare " on the case mouth, take a tapered punch and line it up " Top Dead Center " from above into the case mouth. Give a couple of soft taps with a hammer. Make a trial run with a cast bullet. When 3/4 of the gas check fits into the case mouth you have it RIGHT ! !

I've fired 1,000's of rounds with this technique. Works great for me in all calibers that I've ever tried the technique in.

Ben

[Trailblazer]

A center punch works good to taper case mouths. Press the case mouth over the punch and give it a little twist.

[Bob S]

The Lyman M die is a worthwhile investment at $14.00 from Midway. The 30 Long is the appropriate one if you are sizing your bullets .308 or .309; the 31 long is the one if your bullets are .310 to .312. It will flare the mouth concentric with the axis of the case, which will help minimize total run-out of the loaded round, as well as reduce lead shaving.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Carteach0]

Good advice all.... Thank you!

[Dale53]

Bob S;
I concur, completely! Well worth the money and then some.

Dale53

[Dale53]

I just lost my complete post (a-r-r-g-g-g-g!!!)

Spench Wolf's excellent little book on the 1873 Springfield (the Trapdoor) has an excellent drawing on a proper neck sizing "punch" for Lee dies. Since these punches are "floating" and have no threads, it is really easy to make them on a lathe. Just follow the drawing carefully adjusting the diameter and length per your particular cartridge needs and you will end up with better tools than you can buy.

Correct neck tension while seating the bullet without damage (particularly with soft 30/1 lead/tin BPCR bullets for BP) are critical to consistently good accuracy. Smokeless loads and harder bullets ALSO benefit from similar treatment.
FWIW, my preference for neck tension is .002". This is easily arrived by having the expansion punch .001" smaller than the bullet you intend to seat. Of course, the sizing die must size the case neck small enough to allow that to happen (that is almost never a problem). Brass is elastic and will spring back about .001" so if you run an expander into a case neck .001" under bullet size you will get the desired .002" smaller. This is enough neck tension to hold the bullet properly without damaging it.

Dale53

[twotoescharlie]

Lee has a die that will expand the necks, most any size. pretty cheap too.

TTC

[Bass Ackward]

Smokeless loads and harder bullets ALSO benefit from similar treatment.

FWIW, my preference for neck tension is .002". This is easily arrived by having the expansion punch .001" smaller than the bullet you intend to seat. Of course, the sizing die must size the case neck small enough to allow that to happen (that is almost never a problem). Brass is elastic and will spring back about .001" so if you run an expander into a case neck .001" under bullet size you will get the desired .002" smaller. This is enough neck tension to hold the bullet properly without damaging it.

Dale53


Dale,

I would say this is sort of misleading. Either that or I am sort of confused which happens more often than I want to admit.

If you are using standard factory dies and cases and using a bullet that is .002 over bore as most casters would, you should be experiencing about .006 of case neck tension minumum. If I understand you correctly, you are almost advocating NO neck tension. Because even when I ream my necks to establish concentricity, I am going to get about .004 no matter what unless I don't size at all.

On my Lyman 44 Mag dies, the expander is .409. That is .432 - .409 = . 023 of neck tension. I have seen you support 44man and his neck tension theories and I can assure you he is squeezing the $hit out of his cases to see the grease grooves on the bullet. I can barely see it with .023 of neck tension and can't imagine going lower.

So which belief is the real Dale? Maximum Dale or Minimum Dale? :grin:

[StarMetal]

I agree with Bass, I also believe that unless the bullet is dead soft lead or there-abouts, the case neck tension isn't going to damage it. Take water quenched wheelweight bullets. Let them set two weeks before sizing them. See how hard they are to size and they are going into a non-giving (non-expanding) steel die. Noway I believe a brass case neck is going to damage a harder alloy bullet.

Joe

[Bass Ackward]

Joe,

I am not disagreeing or agreeing. I was just asking Dale for clarification.

I believe in different neck tension for bottleneck cases and straight sided cases. But then I don't place any great importance on this either. I try to minimize my neck tension on bottlenecked cases by neck reaming. It simply turns out to be what it is what ever it is. I don't strive for a certain value. It also seems to prevent stretching from my dies that others report, and I have no trouble with concentricity issue either. And this all seems to work well for me.

But .... I never have to go more than .002 over bore diameter. My 14 BHN boolits load so slick with a 22 degree taper in the neck that I get no maring of the olgive. So I couldn't tell you what the hell an M-die was for. Maybe I need to investigate.

[felix]

M-dies, or needle-nose pliars, are not required with dies made to match the gun, and the case necks are perfectly mated and smoothed. Bullet tension is an enemy when the fittings are very, very close. However, this is not practical for boolits, as opposed to condom bullets, because of lube problems when shooting more than say 5 rounds. Besides, neck tension does provide some compensation for loads having an ignition attitude, and that is why I personally like to have enough tension such that a pliars is required to pull the boolit out of the case. I like to play with lots of various combinations. Only my 22 caliber guns have their case necks turned, and through several months of experimentation way back when, the magic loaded neck clearance seems to be 0.0008 for all loads attempted. This is after all cases have been turned several times, and the cases no longer enlongate to make donuts. No loads are made to produce less than 35K cup. ... felix

[StarMetal]

M-dies, or needle-nose pliars, are not required with dies made to match the gun, and the case necks are perfectly mated and smoothed. Bullet tension is an enemy when the fittings are very, very close. However, this is not practical for boolits, as opposed to condom bullets, because of lube problems when shooting more than say 5 rounds. Besides, neck tension does provide some compensation for loads having an ignition attitude, and that is why I personally like to have enough tension such that a pliars is required to pull the boolit out of the case. I like to play with lots of various combinations. Only my 22 caliber guns have their case necks turned, and through several months of experimentation way back when, the magic loaded neck clearance seems to be 0.0008 for all loads attempted. This is after all cases have been turned several times, and the cases no longer enlongate to make donuts. No loads are made to produce less than 35K cup. ... felix

Dead on the money Felix. The reason I didn't mention that is because I feel it is something that the advanced reloader already, or should already, know. That's how my stuff is set up. It amazes me that reloader here go through so many steps and trouble to assemble there ammo. I don't and I get good accuracy and my bores don't feel with lead. I have a lathe, I can make M type Lyman dies. Have I? No.

Joe

[felix]

Joe, not everyone can afford custom dies. It is aways best to have the smithy chamber and make the dies together. Second best is to have the dies made after the chambering by a die maker to match the given cases and boolits. Lever guns? Straight walled cases? Plain ol' off the shelf die sets for these contraptions are more than OK. These die sets should include some kind of expander because of the overly tight sizing generally provided by them. ... felix

[JDL]

felix,
Best non custom resize dies I've ever used has been the Lee Collet neck size dies. They can be adjusted to just what is needed. -JDL