Car shopping . . . Root Canal

[TCLouis]

Ok, so a root canal without a a deadening agent is NOTHING to the pain of walking through the doors of a car dealership looking to buy a new car.
It is the new model year and they won't even come down.
After the sales gimmic could not talk us into the new car price for last year's car, the da%$ "Sales manager had the audacity to tell us that we were lucky, that by buying at that price, the dealership was losing money, but that they could 1.5 cars in future allocation.

Yeah right, the Beaman dealership is gonna let the sales manager sell you a car for less than the dealership has in the car. Where was my can of BS repellant when I needed it?

With all the computer geeks out there, why hasn't someone come up with something like carbuyers.com?

Ok, there is intellichoice and NOT ONE dealer will even counter offer from an offer of intellichoice's target price so one knows the info presented on that site is BOGUS.

Anyone know of a car buying site with valid purchase price info???

[Baldy]

You got to be kidding, right. Hit youself in the head with a hammer rigth before you go in the dealership and then you will beleive everything he is telling you. If you want the car you are going to pay the price. I quit trying to deal with them guys years ago. Buy a couple years old. Easier on pocket book and deal with a person, not a sales crook sorry I mean man.:roll: [smilie=1: :roll:

[kenjuudo]

Consumer's Report for a small fee will give you the actual dealers price. You'll enjoy the look on the salesman's face.

jim

[jballs918]

one thing to is that you may want to deal with the fleet manager. they can sell at what they get it. the dealership will make money but no where near what that are trying to pawn off to you. i learned this one time when i picked up a car from the fleet manager. he said that when you do this you see the invoice then normally the sales manager will approve it. this works for everyone becuase the dealerships moves the car and you dont pay sales on them. i was looking at a 2006 noen srt4, the lot wanted 21,500. i want and talked to the fleet manager i got a price of 19,500. no mark up and they get to move the car win win for them. its all about what they have avialable, not what is on the lot. try that and normally if you talk bad to the fleet manager about the sales guy they laugh with you and try to help you.

[JudgeBAC]

Want to have fun buying a car? Try buying one for your 16 year old daughter.

[StarMetal]

One thing I found that still works is play disgusted and say "I'm going to (who ever is their opponant)" and start to leave. That has worked for me alot of times. Also if you have a trade in, lie about what the other dealer will give you.

Use to be that all the prices were on looking for new car websites, they listed the dealers cost, retail, and one more, want to say manufacturers cost. They must have gotten together and got it taken off the net. Kinda was like having a shotgun news. That magazine hasn't been friendly to gun dealers.

I'm in the process of getting my 16 son a car.

Joe

[Herb in Pa]

I'm going to be in the market for a new one fairly soon and definitely do not relish the thought of shopping. The last time in 01 I got a price and went to the next dealer and just showed him the write up......thought it would simplify the process..........WRONG! The salesman disappeared for about 10 minutes and then came back and asked me what I thought they should make on a sale. I got up and started to leave when the ***** sales manager came up and asked me the same question. I told him that if he didn't know what he should make on a sale, then he was in the wrong line of work!

[felix]

The best car for the money is a Toyota, hands down. Repair records by real mechanics. Pick the model you want, use the yellow pages (computer nowadays) and send out 100 letters to sales manager asking for their delivered price off the lot. Midwest locations mostly, and in towns between 30K-50K population. In the letter state sales date required and at what time you will open the envelopes. You will get about 15 percent returns. One will be considerably lower in cost than the rest. Cash deal only; so get your money in advance. Savings? The last time I did this was 35 percent off of retail. ... felix

[Frank46]

judge, My youngest daughter has been driving my 1996 rodeo. So now I gotta look for another ride. She needsit to go back and forth from college. Has almost 100k on it and drives like a dream. Sob, Sob, not I gotta go shopping. Frank

[sundog]

If it doesn't have to be showroom new, just late model and low mile with maybe some remaining warranty, look at the repo lots of your local banks and credit unions. Go talk with the repo guy. They need to move that stuff off their lot and clear that delinquent loan with the previous owner. I've done several like this and never been burned. Most of these places, especially if they know you will give you the key, and let you take it to your mech for a check out. Here's an example: http://tfecu.org/reposale.htm . Keep checking, because they change regularly. Just an alternative. sundog

Oh, and any listed prices? Make'em an offer and dicker with'em. Remember, they don't want it - they want a good loan or be rid of it for cash. If it doesn't sell for enough to cover the previous owner's loan, they'll get a deficiency judgment against them. Won't have anything to do with you or your deal with them.

[omgb]

The proper response to "what do you think I should make on the sale" is ....... Frankly, I don't care. I'm interested in what I should pay. The tactic being used is a common one in Psy dealing. The idea is to move you from your side, to his thus making you part of his team. Of course, this is only a shift in perception because he has a deeper agenda, i.e. to take as much of your money as possible. Here's my $.02 based on my car buying experience in the PRK over the last 15 years.

1. Scout the papers and know what dealers are selling cars for. Clip ads and bring them with you to the dealer. Even though he may not be the one advertizing the car, you can use his competitors againts him in your dealing.

2. Pay no attention to payments. You are interested in sales price not monthly payments. If you have done your homework, you are already pre-qualified at a fixed rate with your bank, credit union etc. You know what your budget can handle. Now find a car at market price. If you allow him to sell you the car based on payments, you will wind up upside down on the car, owing more than it's worth the minute you drive offf the lot. Dealers will try and get you talking payments, DO NOT permit this to happen, keep getting back to sales price.

3. Have several makes in mind and do not fall in LOVE with a particular car. It's a machine, and a disposable one at that. If you let emotion get the better of you, the dealer will exploit that to the max. Remember, he's looking for your weak spot and ego is one of the bigest killers.

4. After selecting a couple of diferent models you are interested in, call Consumer Reports, pay the $20 fee and have them print out a fair market price quote for you based on your area. Take this with you to the dealer and use it openly as your base bargaining point. Dealers will hate this and will always tell you the CU is wrong, full of it, off base, inaccurate whatever. Stick to your guns. Remember, no dealer is your friend and no dealer has your interest in mind as greatly as you do.

5. Have a down payment if possible of at least $500. Ten percent is better, but $500 will catch most dealer's attention.

6. Be willing to walk and do so. I've had dealers run, yes run, out to the curb and offer me a better deal. This is especially true if you can get them to invest three or more hours in you toward the end of the month on a Sunday evening.

7. Trade-ins are dangerous. First, never, never , never and I mean NEVER disclose that you have a trade in until the final price on the car you are buying has been agreed upon. Then, spring the "Gee, I have a car I'd like to trade in". deal. Even if you have to begin with "I don't want to trade in my present car" do so. It's none of his damn business if you have a trade in until you are ready to share that with him. And you shouldn't be ready to do that until after you have a firm price on the car you are buying.

8. Use KBB.Com and know what your vehicle wholesales for. This is your bottom expected trade-in value. Ask retail and accept nothing less than wholesale but do not do so until you've headed for the door at least once. Look, you have agreed upon a price for the car you are buying and you've shown that you have a cash down. The dealer figures he's got one in the bag. Now you spring the trade-in. He's not going to ***** the deal just so that he can get your trade-in for less than wholesale. He's got lots of wiggle room on that car. You will not get retail for the car so forget that. But, there is no reason not to get somewhere between retail and wholesale on that trade-in. You must be willing to walk though and really mean it.

9. Some dealers are in it for more than a sale. For some, it's combat. If you get stuck with one of these idiots, the best thing you can do is leave. Car dealers are like ticks, they are everywhere so don't feel you have any loayalty to a particular dealer. No matter how much time he has devoted to you, you owe him nada, zip. If he doesn't sell a car to you, he will to someone else so don't worry about his bottom line.

OK, that's my car buying advice. It sure was hard-won knowledge but now that I've got it, I get what I want on my terms.

[felix]

It will take more than a few hours to get the letters I have suggested and have them mailed. Plus a couple of weeks wait for the letters to arrive in your mail box. But, you will get the best price for the car this way, guaranteed. If you feel like you have to be face to face with a dealer, then so be it. It will cost you at least a thousand or two for the privledge. When doing the bid and ask game via the mail, you naturally have to take the car being offered sight unseen. You might give preferences in your letter, but these preferences like color are against you and might cost you another grand in price. Just get the damn car as cheaply as possible. Remember what Mr. Talley said. Emotions show color, and that is not what you want to show. ... felix

[omgb]

The wife reminded me of another trick.

10. Never let the dealer apply your down payment to the trade-in. If you owe on your trade-in many dealers will take your down and apply it to that. Of course, that works against you. It's as if you were trading the car in for less and making no down on your new purchase. Let me illustrate.

New car price $10,000
Down..............$ 1,000
financed...........$9,000

Trade in............$2,000
financed............$7,000

Now, suppose you owed $1,000 on your car. If the dealer figures that into what he sells the car for, you come out OK. But, if he covers that deficit by using your down to pay it off, what you really got for your trade-in is $1,000 and what you end up financing is $8,000. Tricky isn't it?

"Be wary, be diligent, for your adversary the devil walketh about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour."

[MT Gianni]

One of the most interesting Jury's I ever served in was a car dealership for wrongfull discharge. Mechanic's exams mean "go for a smoke and come back in 20-30 min", talk to the sales manager means " go have a cup of coffee". The dealer makes money on everything he sells so let him make money on everything but the car is my philosiphy, Oil changes, maintaince contracts and warrentys if needed on a car are an OK markup. Let them win a few but not the big one. Gianni.

[ktw]

I manage a fleet of half a dozen company trucks. Have to turn over one or two of them every year.

I use a method similar to the one described above by Felix for buying new vehicles. I call about a dozen or so Ford/Chevy/GM dealers in the area and ask them to provide me with a written quote on a truck to my spec, cash deal, no financing, best price wins. I do not show up at a dealer showroom until it's time to pick up a truck and drive it away.

I would like to buy a Toyota or two some day, but the number of dealers in this area means I'd likely have to pay a premium in order to do so.

I never trade in a used truck. Dealer policies around here run to only paying half of blue book value on trade-ins. I simply offer the old truck in the newpaper at whatever value they work out to at kbb.com. They all move within a week or two at that price.

-ktw

[db2]

I really enjoy car shopping and dealing with the managers. It is nothing more than a game to me. They think they are pressuring me for a sale, and I am the one makin them sweat.

ombg is right, read his post several times over. He has hit the nail square on the head with an 8lb hammer! You have to have all your ducks in a row before you step on the playing field. You have to know how much you are going to spend, what model you are buying, etc.

I always first go through my banker. I tell him how much a month I want to spend and have him tell me what the total amount that ends up being. Then I get a preapproved note through him. Now I may or may NOT use the banker for the note. The idea is incase I do write a check I want it covered. Chances are the dealer will have a lot better financing these days. This will also work when dealing with the financal people in the dealership in getting a better rate, than what your banker gives.

Do not be afraid to let the salesman know you have cash and will cut a check right NOW! They will try to show you an invoice that may or may not be real. I keep telling them to prove to me why you can not sell me this car for this amount of money. How can I tell that invoice is the real invoice or not. BLAH BLAH BLAH

NADA value? yeah, right who is NADA? National Automtive Dealers Ass. "Now tell me why I would believe the price that you people set?" That will stir the pot a bit, with them telling you they are not part of NADA. Just remember not to get upset a watch them squirm a bit. These are just a few things one can talk about.

YES YES YES!!!!!!!!!!! be willing to walk, this is your ace up your sleeve and by all means do not be afraid to use it. The look on the salesmen face is PRICELESS. Just walk away, they will be talkin to you before you hit the door, then you make up your mind on whether this dealership is worth more of your time.

ombg #7 will get you a better deal than telling them straight up that you have a trade-in. Once you do that then it is all about a trade balance which almost requires a calculator to try to figure out the numbers. It is one more way to twist numbers around and make something sound better than it really is. After you are happy with the price then spring it on them, "Oh, buy the way how much will you give me for my ------ ?" This does in fact work.

ombg #9 Yes, some make it personal, like I have in buying. I am the salesmans worst nightmare. You can not upset me, I am not afraid to walk out the door unless I get what I want. A few years back, I had no credit, no idea how the system worked. I would go into a car dealer and HOPE a salesman can put me into a car. Not any more. After a little coaching to my friends they are not near as negative about buying a car. One friend walked out on the saleman and within one hour he was driveing home his new truck. He could not believe the reaction from the salesman. "The question is not about me buying a car, that is going to happen. The question is are YOU going to be the one to sale me a car?" Remember it is the look on the salesmans face that makes it worth it.

This is not normal to a salesman. They are not trained to deal with someone spining things around them. A funny little smile, loss of eye contact, a little blushing, stumbling on their words, wanting to get someone else who "knows more about the car" all of these are signs of confusion. Now they are on YOUR terms. Of course the salesman is nobody in a dealership it is the salesmanger who makes all the decisions. It is him who starts the game, that is who I am after. My wife thinks I am nuts. Sometimes she even gets embarssed, but it works.

REMEMBER "who has the money has the power" Now I will ask you one more time, "When you walk onto a car lot who has the money, and who is trying to unload a car?"

db2

[omgb]

I thought I might add a note on credit. This is a great little tidbit to share with teenagers and young adults.

1. Wealth is not how much money you have, it's how much you can use. Credit is wealth.

2. Those with good credit own the day why buying a car. With good credit you choose ther time, place and terms upon which you deal.

3. Bad credit, poor credit or no credit means you are at the mercy of those with whom you deal. It is never to your advantage to have poor credit.

4. Keeping the above three points in mind:


a) Preserve your credit.
b) Honor your debts. Do not spend beyond your means.
c). Build credit slowly and hang onto it tenatiously.
d) Never buy on impulse, plan all purchases
e) Keep a cash reserve in the bank at all times.
f) Try not to do business in cash when buying large
items. Cash transactions do not build credit.
g) One more time, honor your debts, no matter how
painful
h) Remember, public behavior affects your credit score.
Arrests, tickets, legal judgements all are figured into
your score.
i) Don't obligate yourself to reckless or irresponsible
people. That means don't cosign for a child or sibling
unless you are willing to go down with them if they
fail.


Your reputation ie. credit is worth more than gold. Guard it, protect it, nurture it and you will prosper.

[felix]

Totally agree, Mr. Talley, except for one thing. Nowadays, you want to build credit as fast as you possibly can. A good measure of your credit is how many, and how often, you get credit card checks in the mail to cash at 0 percent interest, and how long the term is to pay the credit card company back. There are several ways to get this to happen. That said, it is indeed unfortunate that personal character is being tied to this credit thing more and more. It is almost impossible to get a good paying job without a high credit score. Employers, after the 9/11 ordeal, are no longer willing to take a risk on someone's background. This is not fair to those who have no credit, and owe nothing because of their responsibility to having paid back all debts as they are, or soon after, they occured. ... felix

[floodgate]

felix:

"This is not fair to those who have no credit, and owe nothing because of their responsibility to having paid back all debts as they are, or soon after, they occured."

Yeah; the credit card sharks have a name for those of us who keep our accounts paid up to date:

"DEADBEATS"

Sorta turns the word on its head, don't it?

floodgate

[mike in co]

If You Would Like To Buy A Subaru , Anywhere In The Usa Cont, Please Pm Me.

The American Car Manufactures Have Treated The Us A Car Buyers So Poorly That The Buyer Does Not Know What To Do When Someone Presents Them With The Truth.

I Can Sell A Car At Cost, But Not All My Cars At Cost.

Foreign Cars Have Next To No Mark Up(toy.honda.subaru/kia/suzuki/hyudai)...american Cars Have A Ton Of Mark Up And More........

Dont Lie To Your Salesman....and He Will Probably Treat You The Same Way.

There Are Crappy Salemen///and Crappy Customers

What Works At An American Car Dealer Will Not Work At A Foreign Car Dealer.

You Dont Deal For The Price Of Your Milk, Your Gas, Your Car Ins, Your Groceries, The Cost Of A Movie, What Makes You Think It Is Aprpriate To Negociate On The Price Of A Car?(other Than The Way The Us Car Makers Have Bent You Over For The Last 40 Years )?

My Happiest Customers, Do The Least Negociating, Least Happy Are Still Trying To Figure Out A Year Later If They Got The "best" Deal.

I Work At The Number One Selling Subaru Dealer In The Usa.

Consider This, When You "negociate" A Price You Are Taking Food Out Of The Mouth Of The Salesman(we Are All Commissioned ) .
If You Negociate A 10% Discount, Are You Willing To Provide Your Salesman With A 10% Discount On Your Field ???? If You Get It Down To Cost On The Car Are You Willing To Do Your Work For Cost To Him ???
Why Shouldnt It Be A Two Way Street ???
Things To Ponder......

I Treat My Customers With Respect, I Do Not Hide That I Work 100% On Commission, I Stay In Contact With Customers All Year Long Not Just While Selling Them A Car.

I'll Take All The Heat, But Do Not Compare Me To The Experiences You Have Had With American Car Manufactures.......

For The Record There Are Few "american" Cars And Few "foreign" Cars
Toyota, Honda Subaru All Build Cars In The Usa, Ford Gm And Chry All Build Cars Outside The Usa That Are Sold Here.

Pulling Out My Asbestos Suit.......

As A General Question, What Do Each Of You Think A Dealer Should Make On A $25,000 Car. What Do You Think They Do Make On A $25,000 Car ?
(again I Refuse To Discuss The Big Three).
Mike

[omgb]

You've got to be kidding right? There's more than enough mark up in foreign cars what with special dealer incentives, kick-backs and monthly and quarterly awards other pricing deals. A dealer should be entitled to 3% over his actual real cost after all of the incentives and kickbacks and after costs for advertizing etc. are figured in. I couldn't care less about the slaesman's mouth or what is in it. Really, that's not my problem. That's between him and his employer. Don't like the commission, get a different job or bargain for an hourly rate.

I want the car at the absolute lowest cost to me, period. If that means dealers have to up volume and cut over-head, fine. I have yet to meet a sales manager or dealership owner who makes less than 6 figures. The finance guys get a share of all of the sucker packages they sell.

C'mon guy, it would be easier to garner sympathy for an out-right thief than it would be for most car dealers and used car dealers are the worst. BTW, my son just bought a new Subaru STi today for under $32,000. This was after having one dealership renig on a written promissed price for both the new STi and his trade-in. He drove 65 miles one way to meet with that dealer only to have the "bait and switch" routine pulled on him when he got there. (Subaru of Thousand Oaks CA). The second dealer honored an internet price but not until a lot of haggeling. Car dealers good guys? Don't piss down my neck and tell me it's raining. They are what they are, period. They sell cars at a profit. They try to get as much out of me as they can and I try to get as much out of them as I can. Those who don't haggle are doomed to get screwed. I never worry about getting the best deal after the deal is closed. i know what I want when I go in, and I don't settle for less. No remorse.

[omgb]

Final tally on the Subaru deal. Trade in was a 2003 Subaru STi with 55,400 miles, front mout intercooler, extra gauges, premium sound system, aftermarket exhaust syste,. He got $21,700 for it. New Subi was a 2006 STi with premium sound, gold wheels, all of the options including the extended arm rest. It came home for $31,600 plus tax and lic. FWIW, the sticker list was $34,800. I'd say the boy did right well for a high demand car. The key was the written agreement and knowing what the dealer cost for the car would be. That info he got from Consumer Report. The dealer made a tad over $1200 on the new car. No doubt some kid will pony up $24K or so for the used car.

Look, dealers aren't the anti-Christ nor are they pedophiles or other such detestables, they are people. The gripe comes in the whole way cars are sold. There is so much secrecy, so much slight of hand. As my son was doing the paper work, the finance guy got really angry when he wouldn't buy the extended warranty for $1400 more. My son wanted it (he runs up mileage quickly) but not for more than $800. He held to his guns and got an additional 3 years and 60K bumper to bumper coverage (that makes it 6 years or 90K) for $835 and change. Can you imagine how many suckers are paying the extra $600? Of course, the finance guy pockets the diffference. That's the kind of crap that earns car dealers a bad name.

[felix]

Probably could have gotten that car model for 23K with straight cash from some midwest dealer having an extra (to him) on the lot. No exact choices of attributes, though. You could have sold the existing car around there where you live for 20K? If so, that would have been 3K for the swap, plus air fare, rent-car fare, extra gas, etc. So, let's say for argument, you could have gotten the car for 5K in totum. ... felix

[omgb]

With his delivery charges, the dealer actually paid right at 30k for the car according to the fact sheet given me by Consumer Reports. This info has proven to be dead on. So my son did pretty well. The initial shopping for the car was done on an internet market with dealers all over the tri-state area competing (Nevada, Calif, Ariz) In California, it's rought buying an out of state car. Calif clean air standards require special tuning and equiping. By the time one brings in a car from out of state, you have to pay a hefty penalty in smog upgrades. Then too, the sales tax, an in-state import fee and a vehicle entry registration fee are added on. Calif. has a guy by the shorthairs when it comes to getting around the state fees.

As to private party sales, well, that's iffy too. My daughter is a cop with the LAPD. A great many car jackings occur in the course of a private party sale, especially when we are talking import racers like the STi. The deal would have had to been done at the Credit Union since they held the note, that would have required time off from work. There would have been test drives and most likely, a doubel car payment or two while wiating for the old car to sell. The way I figure it, my son did about as well as a guy could hope for. The old car is gone, his responsibility and liability for it are terminated, he has the new car, the dealer made a fair profit, my son got a good car (third one from this dealer) the interest rate was great, 3.5%, and they tossed in a Lojack system at no extra cost. All-in-all, a pretty good day.

[mike in co]

gezzz i hate to rain on your parade.........
the consumer reports price is 100 percent wrong every time....
it is based on some national number that is vapor ware.....

it is close but i have never seen one correct period

my question to you , is why if you use consumer reports price guide , you choose to only follow it when it helps YOU....it plainly states a 5 percent profit is reasonable.
i find it funny when "consumers" come in with thier price guide showing "our" cost, but remove or black out the portion where consumers reports says a 5% profit is reasonable.

and you think its ok if your boss takes on a job, and after you do the work he tells you he did it for no profit, and u are not getting anything ???
the average new car sales man sells 12 cars per month....just how much of your supposed 3% do you think would be correct for the salesman.....( do some math before u answer...what do u think we should make for 60 plus hrs a week ??)
why is it ok for you to make a living at your chosen profession, but not ok for me to do the same ??

and your crack about you not caring about the saleman is real cute. we do not get paid by the hour....like i said 100 percent commision. i just hope your salesman treats you the same way. i'll bet you get GREAT sevice, remember what goes around comes around.


all subaru dealers buy from thier district, not from subaru usa.

"You've got to be kidding right? There's more than enough mark up in foreign cars what with special dealer incentives, kick-backs and monthly and quarterly awards other pricing deals"

i told you not to bring up how the us car dealers do biz......

sorry but you have a misconception of how foreign car dealers operate.

in the past yr only once have we had a per car incentive to the dealer
no monthly or qtrly bonus.

and felix no you cannot buy an new 06 sti for 23k......your mind is fried on what the us car dealers have done to your poor brain......and you were ignoring the fact that he still owed money on the trade in your math.....


your son did a fine deal.

most subarus are 50 state cars, tho there are some specials for ca. the sti is not one of them it is only made one way for the usa thru 2006. for the record i have an sti customer in sacramento(yes i am in colorado)

there is no flim flam on the price. there is one and only one invoice per car.
most car dealer buy cars the way most people buy them...financed thru a bank.
you honestly think the banks would risk thier income on flim flam pricing.
do dealers get bonuses...yes, is it often tied to how many cars they sell, yes, but it is a bonus to the owner, not to the sales force or the price of the car.

next time try treating the sales force the way you would like to be treated, and see what happens. if not treated well, get up and leave. it was thier mistake. but if you go in with a plan to lie and play games about wether there is a trade or not, expect to get what you hand out, handed back to you. there is nothing wrong with going in prepared and with your mind open.

if your son had a price from me , the store would have honored it, no games. with the strict emissions in the denver metro area, we would have passed on his trade or requested he return it to stock config.( the emmission testing in denver metro is as bad as calif...i was a lic installer/inspector in ca)
i would have walked out of the dealer that renig'ed on the price, i would have told his management why i wasnt doing biz and told the district hq too........i have no use for poor salesmen. this is the behavior that give us a bad name.



try being considerate of the sales force and you might even like how they treat you. if you insist on the car purchase being a confrontation, i doubt you will ever be happy in a dealership.

[felix]

The car bought was a Mazda RX7, or Datsun 240Z equivalent at the time, from a Cape Girardeau MO dealer, at 8200 bucks. The car was retailing at Houston during circa 1980 for 12500. Now, my friend, you tell me this is wrong and I will get the records and place on the internet. Don't ever call me a liar!


Picked up a 1000 mile Mazda RX8 with racing suspension in Chicago for 25000, December 2004. Want the paper work for that one? The deal also included mag wheels, plus 4 extra aluminum wheels with high dollar rubbers for snow, shipped by truck from the dealer to fort smith ar after the car was picked up. Sundog can verify that one because my two sons slept all night at his house because of the proximity to the airport in Tulsa for an early morning flight. ... felix

[omgb]

Got your hair up a bit didn't I? That wasn't my intent but I wasn't too careful not to either. I should have chosen my words with less emotion and more consideration. The subject is very emotional for all parties concerned. As it should be given the amount of dirty dealing and cheating that has gone on in the past.

I'm basicly a pretty nice guy. When I go into a dealer I'm not rude nor am I unfirendly. But, the dealer has to earn my respect because based on past and present dealings, he has to prove to me he's not a cheat, crook, liar, con man first. So far, only one dealer out of thae last 10 I've dealt with came even close to being straight foreward and honest. That's not a very good showing.

I'll have to take your word on the pricing bit with foreign cars. It is hard to imagine a system that isn't like the one for American made cars.

Yea, I know the dealer has to show real costs to the bank. That's how I am certain CU's price sheets are spot on. I have cousin who is head of a regional banking chain. His bank does a lot of work with car dealers. He and I have gone over the CU sheet many times comparing it to what his records show and so far, it's not been wrong.

You are correct, CU says between 3-5% profit on sales with that margin even higher for some models with high demand and limited availability, like the STi. I don't black those number out, I just make sure that the dealer holds too it. Since I intend to trade in most of the time, I'm not too worried about him making his money. He will more than make it up on the trade. I never trade in junk so he's not taking my car to the wholesaler Monday AM.

As to the comment that I couldn't care less about what goes in the dealer's mouth, well, I was a tad over the top on that. :roll: Certainly, it would not be in my best interest for the dealer to fail. That would be unumanitarian for sure but even worse, fewer dealers means less competition and that translates to higher prices for the consumer. The thing is, I'm not running a welfare system. It is incumbant upon me to get my price down a low as I can in a deal within reason. The best transaction is one where all parties make money and achieve their goal. Problems arrise when one or more in the deal have goals that are either unrealistic ($25K Subaru) or predatory.

It sounds like you're a fair guy. But you've got to know, you're in a very unfair business with a very spotty record. As long as folks continue to get abused buy shady dealers, you are going to have to prove yourself worthy of trust every time.. Consumers are like beaten dogs, they anticipate the worst from every dealer them meet and they resent even having to business with them. That gives guys like you an uphill treck every time.

I wouldn't have taken my son's car in trade for all of the reasons you mention. He changed the down pipe but did leave in the CAT. Still, how is the dealer to know that? How can the dealer accept responsibility for the car after it has been modified by the owner? It's a big risk and one a dealer would be within his rights not to accept. tThe font-mount IC is a big risk too. Do it wrong and you get turbo lag or worse, they have to remove the front crash bar to fit it. I refused to let them do that to my son's car and forced them to custom rig a mounting system. The rice-rocket tuner mags all detail installations that are based on removeing this key structural member. Idiots is all I can say. Subaru put that bar there for a very good reason.

Well, I doubt that politics or religion could raise hair as fast as car buying. Sorry for ticking you off. You seem like a square shooter.:drinks:

[felix]

A car is worth what it is insured for. Period. ... felix

[omgb]

You are so right Felix, so absolutely right.

[mike in co]

The car bought was a Mazda RX7, or Datsun 240Z equivalent at the time, from a Cape Girardeau MO dealer, at 8200 bucks. The car was retailing at Houston during circa 1980 for 12500. Now, my friend, you tell me this is wrong and I will get the records and place on the internet. Don't ever call me a liar!


Picked up a 1000 mile Mazda RX8 with racing suspension in Chicago for 25000, December 2004. Want the paper work for that one? The deal also included mag wheels, plus 4 extra aluminum wheels with high dollar rubbers for snow, shipped by truck from the dealer to fort smith ar after the car was picked up. Sundog can verify that one because my two sons slept all night at his house because of the proximity to the airport in Tulsa for an early morning flight. ... felix

felix,
you are not talking MSRP....YOU ARE TALKING SPOT MARKET. YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT TWO SPECIFIC CARS THAT WERE HOT ON THE MARKET, AND IN SOME MARKETS HAD SIGNIFICANT MARKET MARKUPS.
THIS AINT MSRP VS DEALER COST.
THE CAR IN QUESTION IS BEING TALKED ABOUT IS ITS MSRP AND SELLING PRICE. THERE WAS NO DISCUSSION OF MARKET MARK UP.....for the record we have no "market adjustment" to our prices.
( i worked for datsun, now nissan in the seventies....the dealer mark up over msrp was crazy on the z-products, but again this is market markup over msrp...not the discussion here)

1000 miles on a NEW car is excessive. probably a demo car. in some states there is a limit to the number of miles a "NEW" can have on it and still be sold as a NEW car. 1500 miles here in co, check with your state and the state you bought from. our dealership would discount any car used as a DEMO, because at my dealership we consider the car used.
two sets of tires on a car sounds like a used car to me, and as such does not qualify as part of this discussion.
felix i would not likely call you a liar. think you missplaced your comments and your experiences in a discussion on MSRP , purchase price and dealer cost.

[mike in co]

OMBG
WELL SAID.
i only took this job if i could do it my way. so far my way has paid off. i have been the top salesman more times than not in the last year. i only have just over two yrs in the biz, but already have repeat buyers.
i have tons of expereince in the money biz. please go back at look at what i said. the cu numbers are close, but to date i have never seen one correct, only close. typically off by several hundred dollars. things they miss cause some consumers to balk at the cost, but it is indeed the price we pay. our answer to those that balk, is to call cu and see if they will sell you a car at that price.
they cannot run off to another dealer in the area and get a different number....we all buy from the district( not from subaru of america)...so we all pay the same for the same product.
MIKE

[felix]

Mike, all is fair in love and war. Should I buy a car from you, I will specifically ask you to purchase the car, drive it for 1500 miles, and then I will take delivery. ... felix

[slughammer]

I bought my existing car by figuring what I would need to spend to get a car I wanted. Then seeing what cars fell in that range. Then deciding on a car. And then going to www.traderonline.com and finding the best deals on the car. I prorated the cars with a value based on milelage and expected years of service. Within 75miles I found there were $6000 price differences on similar cars. Far easier going after the $11K car and talking them down to $10K than it is to talk $17K down to $10K.

And, I think I saved about 1/2 by buying a car with 20,000 miles. 4 years and 100K miles later the 10K saved is much better to look at.

[mike in co]

Mike, all is fair in love and war. Should I buy a car from you, I will specifically ask you to purchase the car, drive it for 1500 miles, and then I will take delivery. ... felix

i can do that for you....well almost. subaru america sells program cars back to subaru dealers. i have 06 tribecas and outbacks with as little as 5000 miles and large discounts...true slightly used cars with lots of warrantee left.

and sorry to say, but as a subaru salesman...i cant afford what i sell.....i'm driving a lovely 99 outback with only 113000 miles on it....that way i can afford to shoot and try your lube on my recycled wheel wieghts....

lets go back to shooting.....much less stress