SWC boolits; next step

[Onty]

Sorry folks, it rains outside, I got bothered and couldn’t resist temptation; I had to try this.

Anyhow, in number of post and articles I found that our good old SWC Keith style boolit, especially 41 and 44, just lack sufficient meplat surface to be as efficient hunting boolit as LBT style in same caliber. I know, many grew with Keith or similar style SWC, and for plinking they are great boolits, however, for hunting purposes LBT is the boolit of choice for experienced handgun hunters because of considerable larger meplat. Well, since many like that nice, clean cut on paper SWC creates, and in the same time would like to use it for hunting, what do you think if we redesign SWC in order to make it more useful? As far as I could see, of all SWC-s, only some of those 45-s have a decent size meplat dia to be considered as universal SWC. Even John Linebaugh in his article http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=12 mentioned 45 SWC as his boolit of choice when top loads are not required. However, 454424 and similar boolits do not have equally long/wide driving bands I would like to see; http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=25 .

Here is my proposal for redesigned SWC boolits for 41, 44 and 45 revolvers:

- All driving bands same dia
- All driving bands and grease groove same width
- Meplat dia about 75% of nominal dia
- Plain base, no GC

Since these are going to be also a hunting boolits, standard weights are slightly increased.

Here is illustration; 41-245 top, 44-265 middle, 45-285 bottom;

http://img2.pict.com/9a/91/ad/3201236/0/swcimprooved.jpg

41-245-SWC

Weight: 245 gr
Meplat dia: .310”
Crimp to meplat lgth.: .400”
Driving band dia.: .413” (as cast)
Driving band & grease groove width: .110”


44-265-SWC

Weight: 265 gr
Meplat dia: .325”
Crimp to meplat lgth.: .400”
Driving band dia.: .432” (as cast)
Driving band & grease groove width: .107”


45-285-SWC

Weight: 285 gr
Meplat dia: .340”
Crimp to meplat lgth.: .400”
Driving band dia.: .454” (as cast)
Driving band & grease groove width: .100”

All weights are calculated using WW; 11 grams/cc, verified in metallurgical lab.

Let me know what you think.

[NHlever]

Educate me more on the function of the front driving band. I understand that it's job is to give bearing surface to the rifling, but perhaps it doesn't need a front shoulder? I forsee problems in Marlin rifles, etc. , and that is why I bring it up. I guess we either believe that the front shoulder actually cuts in game, or we don't as far as that is concerned.

[fredj338]

I like the idea. The RCBS 270grSAA is along the same line of thought w/ a 0.335" dia. meplate, comes in about 285gr cast form ww. I'm not so sure the tiny diff in meplate between some SWC & LBT style does much better on game though.
Some monolithic solids are being manuf w/ a slight cup or dimple in the nose. With some experiments using that type of solid on quite a bit of African game, they seem to cause more tissue damage as the bullet plows through @ rifle vel. I can replicate it wetpack @ rifle vel & it seems to show some merit in large bore handgun bullets. So maybe a LSWC solid w/ a full meplate, dimple point, concave, no more than 0.005" deep?

[Onty]

Educate me more on the function of the front driving band. I understand that it's job is to give bearing surface to the rifling, but perhaps it doesn't need a front shoulder? I forsee problems in Marlin rifles, etc. , and that is why I bring it up. I guess we either believe that the front shoulder actually cuts in game, or we don't as far as that is concerned.

The main purpose of front driving band is to align boolit, loaded round, with front side of the chamber in revolver cylinder. That is the reason why all old dogs recommend boolit to be sized just so
all boolits should pass through the cylinder throats with just slight finger pressure http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=12 . Now, take for example any 45 Colt cylinder, measure aft dia of the chamber where case sits, and case itself, you will see that difference could be us much as .010" in extreme cases. If loaded round does not have decent driving band that will center round in the chamber, in worst case scenario loaded round will be .005 off center; certainly, this cannot help accuracy.

As for the rifle, situation is similar.


I like the idea. The RCBS 270gr SAA is along the same line of thought w/ a 0.335" dia. meplate, comes in about 285gr cast form ww. I'm not so sure the tiny diff in meplate between some SWC & LBT style does much better on game though....

You are right. In many cases, when talking about 45 cal. boolits, difference in meplat dia between average LBT and SWC is not much. However, when you compare Lyman 429421 and similar boolits, with some 44 cal. LBT ones, difference could as much as .040-.060”, with equally dramatic difference in effect on game, see more here http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=515255&highlight=james+gates+truncated#post515255 post #11. Also, see this article, it’s probably the best about cast boolits and relationship between meplat dia and velocity, and wound channel and penetration http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/index.htm .

[44man]

No problem with killing effect if a SWC has a decent meplat.
The accuracy of a SWC falls behind no matter what shape it is and is why I don't use them any more.
The shoulder does zip. Why bother with it at all?

[Onty]

No problem with killing effect if a SWC has a decent meplat.
The accuracy of a SWC falls behind no matter what shape it is and is why I don't use them any more.
The shoulder does zip. Why bother with it at all?

Well, different folks, different experiences, different opinions. Some shooters just like SWC, they work for them and they do not want to use anything else. As matter of fact, demand for quality SWC is so high that even LBT guru, Veral Smith, offers them now. See http://www.lbtmoulds.com/moulds.shtml :


AUTHENTIC KEITH BULLET MOLDS

.44 240 gr. - 45 310 - 45 250 gr are available. These are exact copies of Elmer's specs. Specify desired diameter and, if desired, gc, through that will leave only the nose authentic, but performance better than Elmer experienced. If you want a 45 bullet that looks like the original 44 Keith, ask and you shall receive. Weight will be about 270 gr. All length dimensions and lube groove will be identical to the original 44.

Never mind RCBS, SAECO, Lyman, Lee, etc.

[Changeling]

You might want to check out this link http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell45KeithSWC.htm

The NEI bullet Mr Fryxell discusses has a meplat of .450.

This value was .345 for the NEI bullet when I wrote it, the same as the article I "Linked" to!

[fredj338]

You might want to check out this link http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell45KeithSWC.htm

The NEI bullet Mr Fryxell discusses has a meplat of .450.
Read that again. If the meplate was 0.450" it would be a full wadcutter.:coffee:

[44man]

Well, different folks, different experiences, different opinions. Some shooters just like SWC, they work for them and they do not want to use anything else. As matter of fact, demand for quality SWC is so high that even LBT guru, Veral Smith, offers them now. See http://www.lbtmoulds.com/moulds.shtml :



Never mind RCBS, SAECO, Lyman, Lee, etc.
I do understand why fellas love the looks of the Keith and why the demand is still high after all these years. It is APPEARANCE of loaded rounds. Unfortunately, the revolver does not shoot by appearance. Once in the chamber, the gun does not care what a boolit LOOKS like, only how it works.
If I was making molds for sale and all that was wanted was a Keith, I would sure make them, money in my pocket.
If ANYONE can show groups at ANY range shot with a Keith that better the LBT or RNFP boolits, why are they not posted? Those Keith targets are the ones that are missing since all the years I have been here.
I post all pictures, so don't shy away. Please show all of us 50, 100 and 200 yard groups shot with a Keith.
You only need ask me and I will take any revolver down, shoot a group for you and post it. That is exactly what I did with this group from my Vaquero when accuracy was being discussed. I only took 5 rounds, shot from Creedmore at 50 yards with a Lyman RNFP.
Onty, you are free to show results.

[Onty]

O boy, I started this thread just to give my little contribution to SWC design, for those folks who like to shoot this boolit style, and you are turning it into some sort of campaign against SWC.

Let make this clear; I do not shoot presently any SWC. I did purchase (still NIB, never been used) #503 from Miha, and might even sell it, but the boolit I shoot mostly these days is SAECO #398, from 357 TC-Contender. If I can make 1.250-1.500” at 25 m, I bet that true accuracy is less than .500”. No I do not have targets. Older shooters in my club swear that this boolit is the most accurate 357 boolit they tried in revolvers. They suggested me to try it in my Contender.

Now, if you see this thread http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=68943&page=2 (post #25) you will see my real preference in boolit design.

So, you like LBT; fine. I prefer Truncated Cone (TC) in 357; fine again. But it’s also fine to like SWC and I have no intention of jumping on anybody who likes 357 SWC, or any other SWC boolit…

[runfiverun]

heck i like the rnfp's.
and i am guessing the target pic's james showed above was shot with a 452664 one of my favorites.

[44man]

heck i like the rnfp's.
and i am guessing the target pic's james showed above was shot with a 452664 one of my favorites.
No, it is the 452651 that is supposed to be 325 gr but drops at 347 gr. I use 21.5 gr of 296 with it. That Vaquero has dropped deer off hand past 100 yards.
Onty, not personal. I have been shooting and working with every Keith design in every weight and caliber since the early 50's. Nothing you can do to provide guidance needed in a revolver. Your boolit is indeed pretty but you can't advance it until the shoulder is gone and the ogive is used for guidance through the forcing cone.
If you want super accuracy you just need to get away from a SWC.
The rest of your boolit is fine, just blend the nose into the front drive band.
I still shoot Keith boolits for close range plinking loads but I don't understand the extreme resistance when I say they are not accurate enough.

[Onty]

Educate me more on the function of the front driving band. I understand that it's job is to give bearing surface to the rifling, but perhaps it doesn't need a front shoulder? I forsee problems in Marlin rifles, etc. , and that is why I bring it up. I guess we either believe that the front shoulder actually cuts in game, or we don't as far as that is concerned.

Here is good article explening very well boolit design http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?tocid=460&magid=33 .

[45 2.1]

I still shoot Keith boolits for close range plinking loads but I don't understand the extreme resistance when I say they are not accurate enough.

That might be because some other folks shoot about the same size groups you shoot the LBT style to with Keith style boolits. That would probably explain the resistance your receiving. Just because you can't do it doesn't mean someone else hasn't. I've seen the Keith exhibit at the NRA shows when his son Ted was there. Keith was an excellent shot...........with standard iron sights. He also wouldn't agree with your alloy suggestions. Keiths are quite effective and accurate when alloyed correctly.