Boolit size causing feeding issues in 9mm??

[Gunslinger]

I started shooting IPSC recently and have made some minor changes to my Witness Limited. I put in an 8lbs recoil spring. Here is my problem:

I usually get 2-3 failure to feed's during a 200-250 round training pass. The rounds are crimped a bit on the heavy side, so I do not think crimp is the issue. The boolits are 130gr RN and 120gr spitzer. My bore is .356 so I always size .357. I reload on a Dillon 650, so the cartridges have a timeglass-shape. I'm starting to think that the size of the boolits are the problem?!

Maybe I should try using .356 boolits?? If I do so, what alloy is recommendable, taking into consideration that my velocity is about 1000fps? If I go a little on the soft side, to you think the boolits are able to obturate even though they are the same size as the bore?? I would like to hear if anyone have experience doing this. I know this is contradicting everything we are tought... I'm just trying to eliminate my feeding issues.

[MT Gianni]

I have learned that there is a wide variance in US brass case thickness. Some brands are able to hold a .3358 boolit with out swelling others are lucky to seat a .3565. I don't know if that is the case in Europe but sorting brass may help.

[HeavyMetal]

Sort Brass by head stamp markings and then check thickness.

9mm brass can be, and is, all over the place as far as both wall thickness and case length are concerned.

Case length can effect the amount of crimp your getting. If you used a "short" case to set up the crimp die a long one may get a small case bulge and this would be enough to cause a failure to fully chamber which is what I think your seeing.

So sort by name, sort by length ( or trim to one length) and recheck your crimp after you have a batch of brass sorted and trimmed.

[DLCTEX]

The heavy crimp may well be the problem, case bulge can be slight, but still enough to cause problems. This was the cause of problems with the first 9mm I reloaded. I recommend you get a loaded round gauge, or as I do, remove the barrel and use it for a gauge (1911).

[deerslayer]

Not to repeat the basics but I had the same issue and come to find out my sizing die was not adjusted properly. just a sixteenth or so above the shellholder (actually the decapper was out to far from the factory). Just a thought Nate

[chris in va]

That's why I run all my 9mm through the FCD. If I don't, my CZ gets grumpy like your Witness. You'd be surprised how a few in a hundred are WAY out of chamber spec.

[mike in co]

i agree...no need for a heavy crimp on a lite 9 load.....even my very hot 9x21 only get a lite "un belling"...not a crimp.

check them in the chamber ...take the bbl out.


if you have not trimmed all to a given length, then your so called heavy crimp is gonna be all over the place..encluding some distorted cases...


all brass is not the same....one time go thru it sort it , trim it and then set the crimp die to remove the bell.

i shoot no mixed brass in my 9's and 40's for comp.

i shoot mixed in my 45 for practice, and sorted in comp.

mike in co

[Gunslinger]

I use CBC (magtech) brass exclusively, I should have shared that info in my first post. I never did measure the brass so I'll try to do that.

I chamber-check the dummy round after setting up the dies... I just assumed the rest of the cartridges would be identical to the first round.

What effect can the position of the sizing die have on the rounds?? I just set it so it NEARLY touches the shell plate, that's the way to do it, right? I haven't touched the decapping pin....

[Crash_Corrigan]

I shoot 9's in a EAA Witness, Browning Hi Power and my Ruger BH convertible with the 9 MM cylinder. The EAA eats anything I feed it. The Browning likes boolits sized to .358 or .3575. The Ruger likes anything but thrives on 9 MM fodder that has been run thru the Lee FCD.

So accordingly all my comleted 9 MM rounds go thru a Lee FCD as a final step and another visual inspection.

The chambers on the Ruger are tight and even some factory 9 MM ammo will have difficulty in getting fully into the chamber. However once they go thru the FCD it is all good.

Go figure.

[runfiverun]

you should have no problems shooting a boolit sized to your bbl.
i shoot 358 in my 358 and 224 in my 224.
a slip fit is not wrong, undersized is.
you might need to play with hardness some.
put the ftf's in your pocket and scrutinize them for issues.

[mike in co]

I use CBC (magtech) brass exclusively, I should have shared that info in my first post. I never did measure the brass so I'll try to do that.

I chamber-check the dummy round after setting up the dies... I just assumed the rest of the cartridges would be identical to the first round.

What effect can the position of the sizing die have on the rounds?? I just set it so it NEARLY touches the shell plate, that's the way to do it, right? I haven't touched the decapping pin....


its not thesizing that is the issue..it will be the crimp////are you crimping in a seperte operation or when seating ?

go to seat , then crimp.

set the crimp die to go as little as posible and still take the bell out...maybe.001 under.


mike in co

[deerslayer]

I apologize you are getting a failure to feed not failure to chamber completely and the sizing die will not affect that i misread the original post

[DWM]

what happen? , not feed from magazine , or not chmaber or not completely close the slide??? my pistol in 9 mm it's an SVI infinity , with fluted chambers ( like and H&K chamber ) and if I have excess of grease/lube the flutes get lubed and can't close completely , but never a problem to get a round from mag to chamber , no matter jacketed or cast round or TC

Daniel

[Gunslinger]

I use Dillon dies so I seat and crimp in 2 different operations!

I have heard about about the Lee Factory Crimp die... but what advantages does it have compared to Dillons taper crimp???

What happens is that the slide doesn't close completely, it needs about 1/4"!

Can it be dirt? I shoot alot, and usually clean it after 500-600 rounds!

Would it help to polish the loading ramp??

[Lloyd Smale]

ive never used a witness so these are shots in the dark. First thing with a semi auto and cast is cast doesnt slide on feed ramps like copper does. Make sure your feed ramp is polished well. Make sure your gun is well lubed and you might want to experiment with a slightly heavier recoil spring. Ive shot a number of 9mm pistols with cast and never found one that wouldnt take 357 bullets. One more thing to be careful of. When loading 9s on a progresive press its very easy with such a small case and bullet to get the bullets started into the case cockeyed. make sure ou start the shell up into the seating die with the bullet straight. i learned this the hard way. One more thing on the feed ramp thing. Even a pollished feedramp can grab a cast bullet if its cast soft. I like bullets in the semi autos cast to at least 14bhn and preferably 18 or more. You shouldnt need to crimp anymore then just enough to straighten the case out and hold the bullet. Over crimping will play hell on your accuracy. Also make sure your 357 die is actually sizing ot 357 ive had many star dies that were off .0005 to even .001. One other thing to address is your bullet. Some 9s just wont feed certain bullets. Ive had my best overall luck in feeding and accuracy with the rcbs 115 and 120 round nosed bullets. Not the target one with the shoulder. That bullet is a dud.

[Gunslinger]

Thanks Lloyd... that sure shed some light on the situation. I must admit I do not always seat the boolits with it standing straight in the case, I'm usually not bothered if it's cockeyed since the die straightens it out by itself... but I guess I will have to change this bad habit!

I will try polishing the feed ramp and keep it a little more clean.

So you're saying that harder alloys feed better than soft ones?? That kinda makes sense since harder boolits are somewhat smoother......

[mike in co]

I started shooting IPSC recently and have made some minor changes to my Witness Limited. I put in an 8lbs recoil spring. Here is my problem:

I usually get 2-3 failure to feed's during a 200-250 round training pass. The rounds are crimped a bit on the heavy side, so I do not think crimp is the issue. The boolits are 130gr RN and 120gr spitzer. My bore is .356 so I always size .357. I reload on a Dillon 650, so the cartridges have a timeglass-shape. I'm starting to think that the size of the boolits are the problem?!

Maybe I should try using .356 boolits?? If I do so, what alloy is recommendable, taking into consideration that my velocity is about 1000fps? If I go a little on the soft side, to you think the boolits are able to obturate even though they are the same size as the bore?? I would like to hear if anyone have experience doing this. I know this is contradicting everything we are tought... I'm just trying to eliminate my feeding issues.

you sure its an EIGHT lb spring ???

maybe 18 ??


8 sounds light....consider going up

are you trying to copy the game guns...lite recoil lite spring ?

if so your ammo must pe PERFECT.


mike in co

[runfiverun]

when my 45 starts the don't quite close thing a couple of drops of oil on the slide help.
always look at the simple stuff first.
case length,oil,o.a.l., thickness of brass. powder consistency [spot check weights] a tenth light here and there could be enough to not throw the slide back just quite enough. [maybe up the load 1-2 tenths]
a slight limp wristing will guarantee a f.t.f. in one of my 9's too.

[Gunslinger]

you sure its an EIGHT lb spring ???

maybe 18 ??


8 sounds light....consider going up

are you trying to copy the game guns...lite recoil lite spring ?

if so your ammo must pe PERFECT.


mike in co


I'm sure it's an 8 lbs spring.

And yes, that is exactly what I'm trying to do. To heavy a spring will make the nose dive at the end of the cycle, and when shooting controlled pairs that is a disadvantage.

What is limp wristing???

[runfiverun]

iit's letting the gun/wrist flop around when shooting it, instead of getting a good grip and controlling the recoil.
a loose grip or relaxed grip, usually caused by relaxing from light recoil..
you let the gun recoil back further than necessary and it takes away from the slide/spring combo from moving parallel to the ground and the spring has to fight gravity also.

[Windy City Kid]

I use CBC (magtech) brass exclusively, I should have shared that info in my first post. I never did measure the brass so I'll try to do that.

I chamber-check the dummy round after setting up the dies... I just assumed the rest of the cartridges would be identical to the first round.

What effect can the position of the sizing die have on the rounds?? I just set it so it NEARLY touches the shell plate, that's the way to do it, right? I haven't touched the decapping pin....

Gunslinger,

I shoot a lot of cast boolits in a 9mm, I think your CBC (magtech) brass might be the problem. The 9mm Magtech brass has a little thicker case walls. I have had chambering problems with CBC brass when loading .357" or .358" diameter cast boolits. The 9mm CBC brass is the only brass I have ever had a problem with in a 9mm.

Try some 9mm Remington or Winchester brass the case walls are a little thinner.

[sagacious]

Hold on just a sec...

You're getting feeding problems when using an 8lb spring? There's no surprise in that.

Plain fact: You're going to get feeding problems with a light spring. Most anybody who's tried it has encountered this. Mike in CO is correct that your ammo will have to be perfect to get perfect reliability.

I have four witnesses in 9mm and 45ACP and a second slide/custom barrel/spring set custom-fitted to each frame. I like 'em and shoot 'em a lot.

In my experience, you're much better off simply learing how to shoot your gun with normal level loads and a recoil spring much closer to standard.

Why do I say that? The Witness/EAA/CZ series slide fits very low into the slide as a result of it's slide/frame geometry. The pistol's bore axis is lower in one's grip, and muzzle flip is reduced by this design. This is in contrast to other guns where the slide fits onto the frame and rides higher. I think you have been given very poor advice about the 'nose-diving' slide of the Witness, as it's perhaps the gun least likely to be affected by this, and the grip design helps too. The advice you were given is true for a 1911, for example, but not a Witness. By using such a light spring you trade-off reliability for a false 'benefit' that the pistol's design cures in the first place. You should perhaps seriously reconsider the use of a very light spring in your Witness.

Just some words to the wise. Best of luck.

[mike in co]

I'm sure it's an 8 lbs spring.

And yes, that is exactly what I'm trying to do. To heavy a spring will make the nose dive at the end of the cycle, and when shooting controlled pairs that is a disadvantage.

What is limp wristing???


well if you are getting a failure to feed///and all else is correct...go up in spring pressure......

one of my guns..is at the opposite end of this conversation with a 24 pound spring...but i can do douple taps nearly touching and my gun feeds.......


all i'm saying is you are having a feeding issue and you are using a very lite spring......move up.....

i know some minor powder factor guns use lite loads and very lite springs but those guns are slick and smooth...works of art. if you have an eaa is not one of them,and are trying an lite spring...the fit just is not there.



see the post above me....

oh and i shoot a bunch of cz's and one eaa whitness