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georgewxxx
03-21-2010, 07:26 PM
Like most winters, our yard gets good sized snow banks from clearing our driveway. That snow offers a good backstop to shoot and collect boolits to check bore diameter, retained weight, etc. A month ago I fired into the snow two different hollow point boolits just out of curiosity to see how much if any expansion there might be. Not very scientific, but it told me a lot of what I might take deer hunting later this year. Both 30-06 loads were originally intended for prairie dogs, but I always wondered how each would work for something bigger. From these results, either I need to slow them down or look elsewhere for deer fodder.

Both boolits happen to be Hensley & Gibbs numbers. One is their #86, from the hollow point side of a two cavity 30-30 flat nosed design, weighing 161gr from wheel weights at .313. The other is the Ness Glace Proof #38 weighing in at 147gr from the same lead/tin mixture...basically WW= a bit of tin for complete fill. They're both softer than most people think can be pushed at what my chronograph showed last summer. The #86 clocked an average of 2210fps using a primer charge of 3gr of Green Dot and a main charge of 57gr of MR8700 & the #38/Ness with the same exact load averaged 2375fps. At 100yds both will group around 2" or less. The Ness boolit usually gets the smaller groups of the two.

So yesterday & today I'm out in the snow trying to find the any of the 9 rounds I fired. If I remember right the day I shot the temperature was cold, like about zero or so, so I just wanted to bang a few of each and get back to the fireplace. I'm still missing one of the Ness boolits, but I averaged the weight and diameter. Only 2 out of the 8 I found had gas checks still on the bases. Yes, they were Hornady crimp on type, and just why the snow would rip them off I can't say. The #86 retained less than half it's weight ending up an average of 79.3gr expanding to .350. The Ness expanded a bit more to .382 weighing in at 70.2gr and that was less than half also. The gas checks weigh a tad under 3grains. I can tell you that some of the checks lying in the snow were at least 3 to 5 feet from the boolit when found, as were bits of nose portions of the same rounds. The rounds penetrated about 8 to 10 feet of snow. Remember this is fairly hard packed snow pushed into banks by a blade on the front of a pickup.

Those same two boolits may react differently if shot at 30-30 velocities of 2100fps or less. I wasn't working up target rounds, but if I backed down to 1800fps expansion results on snow my be different. The retained 70 to 80 grains still would have exited a deer if it didn't hit too much bone on the way out. I've only killed one deer with a hollow point boolit and that was with a 50/70 Springfield. Where that boolit ended up is a mystery. ....Geo

Buckshot
03-22-2010, 01:47 AM
............So it looks like the HP nose blew off and the body continued on. That's a humongus HP hole in that slug! Now if you had a nose forming bump die you could form a conical HP with that huge cavity inside.

..............Buckshot

georgewxxx
03-22-2010, 10:46 AM
Buckshot, There are several options beside closing up the nose. Initially I tried that using several different nose punches, but the frontal portion is almost exactly like the Nosler Partition, tears off anyway no matter what you do to the cavity. Beside for some reason in all my testing none of those reshaped boolits shot as well as when the boolit was left open. If you go half way down on this page link you'll see the testing done by Ness himself.

http://www.sodcity.com/gallery2/view_album.php?set_albumName=Cartridge-Springfield-pictures-etc&page=3

The other option is change the depth of the pin when casting. This H&G mould like most of their hollow point offerings have an adjustable pin. I can make the boolit heavier or lighter to whatever weight and cavity depth I want. It's going to take a lot of testing to come up with a boolit that'll stay together on something bigger than varmints

As you can see the regular 30-30 hollow point lost as much nose material also.

fredj338
03-22-2010, 01:39 PM
Try testing in something a bit softer & w/ more moisture. HP are designed to expand w/ hydraulic pressure. Dirt or sand are poor test mediums. A stack of wet phone books or newspaper gives a very reliable expansion test for any bullet, HP or SP.

thehouseproduct
08-11-2011, 06:11 PM
Like most winters, our yard gets good sized snow banks from clearing our driveway. That snow offers a good backstop to shoot and collect boolits to check bore diameter, retained weight, etc. A month ago I fired into the snow two different hollow point boolits just out of curiosity to see how much if any expansion there might be. Not very scientific, but it told me a lot of what I might take deer hunting later this year. Both 30-06 loads were originally intended for prairie dogs, but I always wondered how each would work for something bigger. From these results, either I need to slow them down or look elsewhere for deer fodder.

Both boolits happen to be Hensley & Gibbs numbers. One is their #86, from the hollow point side of a two cavity 30-30 flat nosed design, weighing 161gr from wheel weights at .313. The other is the Ness Glace Proof #38 weighing in at 147gr from the same lead/tin mixture...basically WW= a bit of tin for complete fill. They're both softer than most people think can be pushed at what my chronograph showed last summer. The #86 clocked an average of 2210fps using a primer charge of 3gr of Green Dot and a main charge of 57gr of MR8700 & the #38/Ness with the same exact load averaged 2375fps. At 100yds both will group around 2" or less. The Ness boolit usually gets the smaller groups of the two.

So yesterday & today I'm out in the snow trying to find the any of the 9 rounds I fired. If I remember right the day I shot the temperature was cold, like about zero or so, so I just wanted to bang a few of each and get back to the fireplace. I'm still missing one of the Ness boolits, but I averaged the weight and diameter. Only 2 out of the 8 I found had gas checks still on the bases. Yes, they were Hornady crimp on type, and just why the snow would rip them off I can't say. The #86 retained less than half it's weight ending up an average of 79.3gr expanding to .350. The Ness expanded a bit more to .382 weighing in at 70.2gr and that was less than half also. The gas checks weigh a tad under 3grains. I can tell you that some of the checks lying in the snow were at least 3 to 5 feet from the boolit when found, as were bits of nose portions of the same rounds. The rounds penetrated about 8 to 10 feet of snow. Remember this is fairly hard packed snow pushed into banks by a blade on the front of a pickup.

Those same two boolits may react differently if shot at 30-30 velocities of 2100fps or less. I wasn't working up target rounds, but if I backed down to 1800fps expansion results on snow my be different. The retained 70 to 80 grains still would have exited a deer if it didn't hit too much bone on the way out. I've only killed one deer with a hollow point boolit and that was with a 50/70 Springfield. Where that boolit ended up is a mystery. ....Geo
Does the #38 get a gas check?

beagle
08-11-2011, 09:33 PM
Yes on the gas check./beagle

thehouseproduct
08-19-2011, 10:29 PM
Group buy discussion started.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=1370312

JeffinNZ
08-20-2011, 12:05 AM
I don't think the first boolit is a boolit. It is a cave with driving bands!

georgewxxx
08-22-2011, 11:04 PM
When I bought the mould, it was from a list a guy in Montana had, and when I got it I was thinking it was a duplex mould missing the nose portion to make a soft nose expanding boolit. I sent the guy a email asking if he had the other nose mould, and he looked around and said no. Lyman and other companies sold duplex mould for a while and until I found out just what I had, I was kind of mad at myself for buying a sight unseen mould. My thinking was if it was made by Hensley & Gibbs it's got to be good, right? Well maybe. I do have a H&G #86 .30 cal hollow point and flat nose like the 311041, but I have never made either of those shoot to my satisfaction like either my 31141 or 311041 do.

JIMinPHX
08-23-2011, 01:18 AM
At rifle velocities, you don't need a very big HP. I use a 3/32" bit to drill holes in my .223 boolits & that is even a bit too much. Also, filling a rifle HP with wax can often make them expand more consistently over a wider variety of speeds.