Cast Load data...WHERE???

[klausg]

Hey gang-

Awhile back, someone was lamenting about Lyman's Cast Bullet handbook (3rd ed), and how the rifle data stunk. I am about to start trying cast in some of my rifles and I was struck by the same thing, not the least of which was that they had a .375 Win stepping around 500fps faster than a .375 H&H with effectively the same bullet?:???: I realize that I can't expect j-bullet velocities, but just about every bit of data there is using pistol powder in a rifle case, and the twenty-something grains looks really lonely in the bottom of an H&H case. So my question is this:

Where do you get data for rifles with cast boolits? Preferably with rifle powder?

Right now I am only concerned with the .375 H&H and .222 REM; I got some data from kg42 on the reloader's side using 3031 in the H&H, but short of asking you guys for data...; is there another manual out there that deals with cast data? Thanks much in advance.

-Klaus

[45 2.1]

The newer Lyman reloading manuals have a lot more data for slower (rifle) powders in them. I also use the starting loads for equivalent weight jacketed bullets at times.

[Bucks Owin]

I would take that notion of the 375 Win outpacing the .375 H&H with a truckload of salt. It's more likely that the Lyman book simply posted two loads that worked well for them.....(Although I haven't seen it)

The .375 Win case ain't built for the pressure the H&H handles I wouldn't think!

FWIW,

Dennis

[Denver]

Klaus;

There's more and better cast boolit data in the older Lyman reloading manuals than in that worthless Cast Bullet Handbook. I have the 43rd edition of the Lyman manual. It gives a starting load for the 375H&H with a 269gr boolit and 39grs of 3031 at 1703fps and a top load with 3031 of 45grs giving 1926fps.

Cast data for the 222 Rem starts with a 45gr boolit and has a listing for 50 & 58 gr boolits.

I don't recall for sure, but I think I remember that RCBS had a cast boolit book at one time. Could be wrong.

Denver:castmine:

[Larry Gibson]

Hey gang-

Awhile back, someone was lamenting about Lyman's Cast Bullet handbook (3rd ed), and how the rifle data stunk. I am about to start trying cast in some of my rifles and I was struck by the same thing, not the least of which was that they had a .375 Win stepping around 500fps faster than a .375 H&H with effectively the same bullet?:???: I realize that I can't expect j-bullet velocities, but just about every bit of data there is using pistol powder in a rifle case, and the twenty-something grains looks really lonely in the bottom of an H&H case. So my question is this:

Where do you get data for rifles with cast boolits? Preferably with rifle powder?

Right now I am only concerned with the .375 H&H and .222 REM; I got some data from kg42 on the reloader's side using 3031 in the H&H, but short of asking you guys for data...; is there another manual out there that deals with cast data? Thanks much in advance.

-Klaus

The best source for data with rifle powders is probably going to be this forum. Many of us are experimenters and use the manuals as guides. Some take the manuals as God's gospel and that is their choice. I prefer to experiment with numerous cartridges using the slower rifle powders as I find them to generally be more accurate and better suited to my shooting style (generall 100 to 500+ yards with cast bullets). I push a 377449 upwards of 2200 fps out of my M70 three six bits using 4895. I also have some older .222 cast loads I used to run out of a M788. Let us know if we can help.

I've not found any manuals that give any much better cast bullet info than the Lymans (I've several of them spanning the years). I like to use 4895 because I've found that with medium to heavy cast bullets for the cartridge a good starting load is 50% of the case capacity (to bottom of the case neck). I use 4895 also because it is (has been) available in quanity as a surplus powder. I also use some other commercial powders as well if the 4895 doesn't give me what i want in the way of accuracy and velocity. With smaller cases like the 30-30 I don't use a fillet (I use dacron) but with larger ones I use the dacron filler. Depending on the bullet and intended velocity some of the middle capacity cases (.308 through 30-06) don't require the filler either. Anyways, if you don't find your powder listed in the manuals ask here.

Larry Gibson

[BOOM BOOM]

Hi,
Diddo what Larry, Bucks, & Denver said, Except I would stay from minimum loads of 4320 & 4350 for S.E.E. reasons. Also I do use a dacron filler in /06 base cases & up w/ rifle powders.

[Bucks Owin]

FWIW, I like the ballistic unifomity of just about any load that I've tried using SR-4759. At least in handguns.

I'll be trying it in some .243 and .270 loads soon...

Dennis

[drinks]

The Lee second edition has quite a few cast loads scattered through it, it does take a bit of looking.
I recently got an Accurate handbook, it has a lot of cast bullet loads, even for very small .22 cases.

[Wayne Smith]

Larry, up to the bottom of the case neck is 50%?? I think closer to 90% of volume.

I generally start with the equivelant weight condom data and start at the beginning, remembering that cast boolets go faster and create less pressure than the condums. A chronograph is essential! Just as important as a set of calipers to measure bore size. Start small, go larger, measuring all along. Remember that your pressures will be less than the condoms at similar velocities.

[klausg]

All-
Thanks much for the replies, BTW, I stand corrected, the .375 Win was only around 200 fps faster, it still boggles the mind though. Take care

-Klaus

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, up to the bottom of the case neck is 50%?? I think closer to 90% of volume.......

No that is not 50%.

" good starting load is 50% of the case capacity (to bottom of the case neck)"

The "to the bottom of the case neck" in parenthesis refers to the two words, i.e. "case capacity", preceding that in parenthesis. Case capacity is measured by filling the case with 4895 to the bottom of the neck and then 50% of that amount is a "good starting load" of 4895 for medum to heavy cast bullets for that cartridge. Guess I didn't explain it clearly the first time around.

Larry Gibson

[JBMauser]

As I understand it the new Lyman manual has no load data with fillers as the older version had, so I did not buy it. I shoot a lot of millsurp rifles and I buy older manuals that have real depth in those rifles which I have. If I ever buy some short magnums then I will buy the latest stuff. JB

[kywoodwrkr]

Has anyone tried using Lee's reduced charges calculations with any of the more usual powders which may be too fast(reduced velocity) for the JBs but when used as reduced loads for cast may be very functional?
I've put this calculations into a spreadsheet but haven't had time to cast and try any of the calculated reduced loads.
One thing I like about his calculations, if they pan out, is that you select a working velocity for yourself and then calculations revolve about that.
Anyone using Lee's procedure?
Thanks.
DaveP

[Leadmine]

Yes, I use Lee's procedure and it works very well. The calculation is simple and allows the use of virtually any power. It's the only thing I ever found useful from Lee.

[Char-Gar]

Data? We don't need no steenkin data! We make our own and share.

Seriously... There are so many variables in cast bullet shooting, it makes the production of a comprehensive loading book all but impossible. In addition to condom bullet stuff, i.e. caliber, bullet weight , powder charge and primer, we also have to deal with alloy temper, bullet lube, sizing diameter, bullet design/shape, rifling type and design, and fit of bullet to the barrel.

We really can't expect some company to produce such a comprehensive loading book for cast bullets. The cost related to the amount of work needed to produce such a book could never recovered in sales.

Sooooo... we "network" as they say these days..that is the way it is done. Therefore, stop freting about the lack of a book and join the network.

[1Shirt]

Just like going to the doctor and getting a bad news report about something, I always want a second opinion, and that goes for reloading data as well for me.
I read and compare from multi sources and manuals, and on line threads befor I start playing with any new load, and this is particularly true for new cast loads. I sometime back got all the old manuals I could lay my hands on (Lyman/RCBS/Hodgens etc.) and wouldn't trade them for anything as references.
A lot of the old manuals have data for cast boolits for molds that are no longer made, and are collectors items, but the data is great. Comes to mind the 45-70 collar button boolit that shoots gallery loads well over 5 gr. of unique. Try to find that load in anything modern. Of course 5 grains of unique under a round ball shoots just as well in my #l, as the collar button, and I can by a whole bunch of them from Hornady cheap and roll them in Lee mule snot. Comparison of load data makes good evening research while sitting in front of the boob tube as well. I trust no individual manual or data recommendation on the web until I make comparisons. Have also found that it is prudent to play with old data from the old manuals with caution, as some powders of times past were not quite as potent as they are today with the same numbers. 2300 in particular comes to mind, and
SR4759. But have never had any problem starting on the low end of recommendations from the old manuals with these powders and then working up.
Lastly, there is always the factor of missprints in manuals and the data therein.
Have serious doubt that a lot of printers are shooters/reloaders and mistakes will happen when printers/type setters are playing with numbers. Just my opinion!
1Shirt:coffee:

[PatMarlin]

Has anyone tried using Lee's reduced charges calculations with any of the more usual powders which may be too fast(reduced velocity) for the JBs but when used as reduced loads for cast may be very functional?
I've put this calculations into a spreadsheet but haven't had time to cast and try any of the calculated reduced loads.
One thing I like about his calculations, if they pan out, is that you select a working velocity for yourself and then calculations revolve about that.
Anyone using Lee's procedure?
Thanks.
DaveP

Yes. Buy Lee's book, read it and you will have it handled safely!

[robertbank]

I bought this manual off of ebay. The Manual has loads for quite an assortment of rifle and pistol calibers and is a good read as well. also has some good info and alloys etc.

First Printing is 1986. Manual was prepared by RCBS, CCI and Speer research Depts. according to the inside cover.

Take Care

Bob

[PatMarlin]

Here's a quote from Lee's book to give you an idea for reducing loads for cast boolits. He also has his formula mentioned above. Lots of good info in his book, and a good reference.

Quote-

"A very conservative guide line would be to limit charge reduction to 20% for the slowest powder on the Burning Rate Chart (he's refering to the burning rate chart listed in his book which is an extensive list of common powders). You may increase the reduction by 1% for each preceeding 30 powders on the chart. Limit total reduction to 50% for the rest except for greatly reduced squib loads. Load these with a very fast but extremely light load."

[lovedogs]

Don't overlook Accurate 5744 powder. It's good with low vel. loads in several calibers, especially good in the .45-70. I've found the folks at Accurate Arms real helpful at developing data. You can call their toll-free number and talk directly to a ballistician instead of a clerk like you get when you call some of the other companies.