30-30 Loads

[NickSS]

I use a 94 Winchester for long range matches at my club. These matches are restricted to lead bullets useing either smokeless or black powder. Most of the time I use a fine Winchester 85 in 3855 that I have with black powder but now and then I want to use the 94. My problem is that all loads that I have tried either give me buckshot paterns or show evidence of keyholeing. My most accurate load uses the Lee 170 gr flatpoint GC boolet and 8 gr. of red dot powder. This will shoot into a 4 inch group at 200 yards but shows evidence of keyholeing. Any suggestions.

[Marlin Junky]

Can you use gas checks?

MJ

[felix]

Increase boolit diameter. ... felix

[dragonrider]

I have tried that same bullet/powder/chargeweight combination and have been getting significant pressure differences from shot to shot. I have no way of measureing pressure so I am basing my assumptions on percieved recoil, sound. I do have a chrono but did not bring it with me that day but I suspect the velocity differences would have been in the hundreds of fps from shot to shot. Is Red Dot position sensitive? It is a small charge in a large case. Should I have been using a filler? Next time I will bring the chrono.

[Bass Ackward]

Is Red Dot position sensitive? It is a small charge in a large case. Should I have been using a filler? Next time I will bring the chrono.


DR,


Ever look at powder burn rate charts? Ever wonder why no two are alike with something that is supposed to be designed chemically for a .... certain speed? That is because powders burn differently in different case sizes and designs. It also burns differently based on different pressure levels. Take shotgun powders for instance. What's a heavy pressure in a shotgun? 10k - 11k? What are you asking a shotgun powder to do at say 25k?

Any powder can be position sensitive under the right conditions mostly related to pressure levels. Some have been designed to minimize this effect, but some people still find they aren't perfect.

Fillers are hard to make a blanket statement on. I would not use fillers in rifle cases below 2400 burn rate. Why? Cause, well just cause. Since I can't proove any reason I could give, my best one is that I don't use powders faster than 2400 in rifles. Below that the manufacturer refers to them as pistol or shotgun. And I respect that mostly. Even when I drop below 4198, I use a magnum rifle primer to ensure that I get a good venturi flame to reach the powder where ever it is hiding. This is just the opposite of common logic that we are taught for primers. Then as my rifle cases get full, I change to a pistol primer because I am trying to light it off easy because I am wanting top velocity for my soft lead. Kinda bass ackwards.

What primer are you using?

[Doble Troble]

I've used Lee 180 gr gc sized to 0.310" for 200 yd matches with my Win 94 30-30. I used 15.0 gr AA5744.

The accuracy was there, but it sometimes wasn't easy to tell when the plates got hit. The little bullets just don't ring the gong. This is why I stepped up to the 38-55.

[sundog]

Four inches at 200 yds? From a lever gun? That's ~2 MOA. I'd be happy with that. Keyholing? Really going through sideways or just tipping a little? Felix mentioned the first thing I'd check - bollit diameter - make it fatter. With the Lee boolit you mentioned, I'd be apt to go to 2400, 4227, or 4198 for a load around 1500-1600 fps, and work from there. sundog

[felix]

Only showing signs of tipping at the target? If so, and if you have a long boolit like you have, then there must have been a cross wind that you did not see. If you have wind of any sort, and using a slightly long boolit, you should expect to see egg shaped holes in the target. That means the boolit turned about its center of gravity to meet the challenge of the wind's direction, so the boolit will still fly straight to the target. If you are getting 4 inches at 200, that is what is happening to you. Like Sundog says, don't complain about that! ... felix

[44man]

Bass and Felix make perfect sense!
8 gr's of red dot in a 30-30 case!!!!! Kind of ridiculous and any safe filler would allow that little load to migrate through the filler. Change to a slower, bulkier powder that will fill the case more and give the velocity you want.
The boolit tipping is most likely caused by the velocity variations because the low velocities are on the ragged edge of stability for your boolit. Any bad ignition caused by the powder position will cause a change in velocity that will make the boolit lose the spin needed.
I will never understand the CA shooters idea of going as light as possible in their loads. It is getting down to BB gun loads to prevent recoil. I think they should require a power factor at the shoots. CA is supposed to duplicate the old west and gun fights. I would not be shooting at bad guys with the loads used today. Put everyone on an equal footing and make all guns recoil!

[w30wcf]

Nick SS,
In addition to the good advice already given, it could also be that the 8/Red Dot may not be giving quite enough velocity to be completely stable in your Winchester's 1/12" twist. However, 4" groups @ 200 are quite good.

One of my favorite mid range loads with the 170 gr. cast bullet is 14 grs. of either 4227 or 4759 for about 1,500 f.p.s.

Have fun,
w30wcf