Bullet Alloy, How Hard?

[Calhunter]

I was wondering how hard of an alloy is hard enough. I'm casting for 454 casull and 460 S&W. The bullet is a gas check design.

Thanks
Calhunter

[felix]

This is a stupid answer, but perhaps the best one. Whatever hardness shoots the most accurately giving you the confidence needed to place the boolit where it counts. Hard boolits, especially gas checked ones, lead the gun when the boolits are too small in diameter, so keep increasing diameter until the bore stays clean of lead for at least 10 shots in a row. ... felix

[454PB]

I shoot lots of cast GC boolits in my 454 Casulls, wheelweights will work, but I generally add 25% linotype. They measure around 16 BHN from this alloy.

[44man]

Come on, Felix, It was not stupid. Most likely the best answer he will get.
The only factor other then what you said is what he plans to hunt and how large the meplat is. Larger game will need a harder boolit as long as the meplat is large enough.

[45 2.1]

Larger game will need a harder boolit as long as the meplat is large enough.

Why exactly does larger game (how do you define larger) need a harder boolit?

[44man]

I am a firm believer in maximum penetration, hopefully all the way through an animal. Deer are well served if the boolit expands some, but I still use hard alloys on them too. It depends on boolit nose shape if expansion is needed.
I have had poor penetration results with too soft a boolit or jacketed bullets unless the boolit weight is high.
Just my preference due to results on a lot of game with revolvers. Everyones opinion will vary, I just stick to what has worked best for me. Not set in stone though.
Larger game would be from elk size and up.

[45 2.1]

44man-
Interesting results. In my state Deer are classified as large game. haha Where are you shooting your deer to get poor penetration? I gave up on hard cast unless it has at least 1100 fps muzzle velocity, 1000 fps and less gave slow kills. I've had excellent luck with soft cast HPs in the heart lung region. They usually drop on the spot while the hardcast SWCs ran 20 to 70 yds.

[44man]

I have had 240 gr bullets just make the hide on the offside after going between ribs behind the shoulder. I always wondered what would happen if a bone was hit or a quartering shot taken so I just switched to a hard cast with a big meplat. Results vary from them dropping or running 20 to 40 yd's. Some just hop and stand there until they die. I like the huge blood trail with a pass through.
With my 45-70 revolver, I have shot through one foot diameter trees so there is not much that will stop it. I have to be careful that there are no other deer behind the one I shoot at. Same with the .44 and .475.
A softer boolit or hollow point is fine if the boolit has enough weight. Deer are not hard to penetrate but for very large game with large bones, I would prefer hard cast.

[Bass Ackward]

I was wondering how hard of an alloy is hard enough. I'm casting for 454 casull and 460 S&W. The bullet is a gas check design.

Thanks
Calhunter


Cal,

My guess would be that the hardness required is related more to specific bullet design you select and the conditions in your own gun that it must operate in.

Take the 357 Mag. I could use the wide front band, PB Keith at a softer level accurately than I could the Thompson GC. That bullet had to be 22BHN for me or higher. Why? I figure that the narrow front band ahead of the first crimp groove was stripping on me because it just wasn't wide enough to stand up to the force of impact and rotation at the cone. Then it was out of balance. But harden that baby up and nothing shot for me like the 358156. 1/2" groups were common.

So applying that logic, I would want even wider bands to grip rifling as I went up in caliber as the weight required to be turned over by close to the same height rifling is increased placing more stress on the same lead. Either that or you are going to have to shoot harder mixes / HT bullets.

[44man]

Very good Bass. That is exactly why I use a harder boolit also because the velocity and weight of my boolits demands harder lead for accuracy. I never get water dropped WW's to shoot as good so I add tin and antimony to WW metal.
Now casting them with a pure lead nose and a very hard drive area might make them devastating on deer but I would leave them hard for anything larger.
More years ago then I will admit, when I had several .357's, the 358156 hollow point was my favorite boolit. Not allowed for deer in Ohio back then and besides, there were no deer there so I hunted woodchucks and cans of water with it. A chuck hit in the head would pop it's eyeballs out.

[Bucks Owin]

I am a firm believer in maximum penetration, hopefully all the way through an animal. Deer are well served if the boolit expands some, but I still use hard alloys on them too. It depends on boolit nose shape if expansion is needed.
I have had poor penetration results with too soft a boolit or jacketed bullets unless the boolit weight is high.
Just my preference due to results on a lot of game with revolvers. Everyones opinion will vary, I just stick to what has worked best for me. Not set in stone though.
Larger game would be from elk size and up.

This caught my interest as one of these days when I flee Kalifornia and settle in the ID/MT/WY area, I'd like to hunt elk with my old .44 Flattop. What boolit weights have you used effectively? I've been developing a hunting load based on a hardcast RCBS 250K PB (actually closer to 260 grs with my alloy) and can easily drive it to 1450 fps with 22 grs of LilGun in the 10" barrel....

But then I started messin' with the 310 Lee and so far have reached 1250 fps without undue pressures and am wondering which would be a "better" big game load...

So far, the 250K has shown me better "long range" accuracy and probably shoots a little flatter. I can stay on a legal sized sheet of paper (or an elk's ribcage) to 150 yds with a good rest using that load. I'm not saying that makes the load a 150 yd elk load, but if a nice 6X6 happened to come along at that range, I'd wouldn't feel helpless at taking the shot if the 250K would give adequate penetration at whatever the velocity has fallen off to.......

So far, I haven't the confidence in the 310 at extreme handgun range as far as accuracy goes although I'm still testing with it...

Any thoughts? Did you use a cast boolit or something like the 300 XTP? Where, in your opinion do the "heavy" bullets start? 260.....280.....300?

Dennis :Fire:

(Maybe the "262 Ramslammer" with it's wide meplat (a shortened 310 lee) will turn out better than either one....)

[lar45]

This looks like a perfect topic for me to hop on to.
A guy e-mailed me about getting some 500 gn bullets for his 470 NE. I have a mold from mountainmolds with 2 different cavities, one with a 70% nose, the other with 90% nose, both gaschecked and 500 gns. I've been shooting water dropped WW at 2150 on targets.
I only had some 90's ready, so I sent him some. They shot good for him around 1400fps, I've shot the 70 at 2150 with good accuracy.
He is wondering how hard they would need to be for hunting. He didn't say what, but from Texas so I'm assumeing Hogs. (I'll ask)
So hard enough to not deform and tough so as to not break up on bone.
I have WW, Linotype, pure lead and some 60-40 Tin-Lead.

Thoughts on what would hold together at 1400 or 2150?

[Bass Ackward]

This looks like a perfect topic for me to hop on to.
A guy e-mailed me about getting some 500 gn bullets for his 470 NE. I have a mold from mountainmolds with 2 different cavities, one with a 70% nose, the other with 90% nose, both gaschecked and 500 gns. I've been shooting water dropped WW at 2150 on targets.
I only had some 90's ready, so I sent him some. They shot good for him around 1400fps, I've shot the 70 at 2150 with good accuracy.
He is wondering how hard they would need to be for hunting. He didn't say what, but from Texas so I'm assumeing Hogs. (I'll ask)
So hard enough to not deform and tough so as to not break up on bone.
I have WW, Linotype, pure lead and some 60-40 Tin-Lead.

Thoughts on what would hold together at 1400 or 2150?


Lar,

There are two big factors to consider when thinking along these lines. First is the strength that comes from bullet hardness. Second is the strength that comes from bore diameter. A 30 caliber bullet that you want to penetrate has to be much harder than a 470 at the same velocity. So your answer would be based on how much you want to penetrate. Then you need to look at meplat size. The smaller 70% meplat will take longer to expand than the 90%er. So penetration at the same velocity hardness will be greater with the smaller meplat.

My guess would be pure lead or above at 1400 with the 70%er up to about 20 BHN with HTWW for the 90% at 2150.

[44man]

Bucks, the 310 Lee is very accurate as far as I can shoot. The 335 gr LBT WLNGC is even better. I interchange them and the only difference is one shoots a little right and the other a little left. I don't like the lighter boolits for hunting and stay 300 and up in the .44. I made a mould for the LBT style at 330 gr's and it shoots great.
The very best load is 21.5 gr's of 296, (all heavy cast boolits.) Felix lube so far since I haven't finished testing Glenn's lubes, and the Federal 150 primer. Yes, yes, yes, a standard primer! Don't jump on me until you try it. They are the secret for almost 1" groups at 100 yd's.
The Ruger will shoot from 240 gr's up with no problems. Some lighter boolits and bullets like 24 gr's, some 23 and some 23.5 so you have to test. The Blackhawks, SRH's and the Smith's like 296. The standard Redhawk needs H110.
The S&W needs a little heavier and 250 up works better then the 240 gr bullets. Light bullets corkscrew out of the Smith.
Never work for the highest velocity, only accuracy because the heavy boolits don't have to be going real fast to be effective.
Lar, my boolits are hard, but tough. Here is what I use; 20# of WW's, 6.4 oz of tin and 9.6 oz of antimony. I alloy at 600 degrees and use the antimony man's flux. My water dropped boolits run from 26 to 28 Brinnel. I have gone to 1800 fps in revolvers. You don't have to go this hard and can air cool them too. I never had any lino so can't tell you what to add. Get ahold of Bill Ferguson and he can tell you exactly what to mix for whatever you want.

[44man]

Bass, a 70% or 90% meplat in a .470 should need no expansion at all. It wouldn't hurt anything and softer lead could be used so I would say with this caliber and the weight of the boolit, about anything could be used as long as it didn't lead, didn't break up and was accurate.

[waksupi]

Dennis, since ol' Elmer was the biggest proponent, of "bigger is better", if the heavier bullets would have been better, I suspect he would have used, and recommended them.

[Bass Ackward]

About anything could be used as long as it didn't lead, didn't break up and was accurate.


44man,

That was his question. What mix would hold up at what velocity using those two bullets?

That is what I tried to answer.

[chunkum]

Calhunter,
A good many years ago, when I first started casting for the .454 Casull, Bob Baker had me using linotype for a couple of Lyman GC designs in 255gr and 300gr, created at the time especially for that caliber,by whom, I know not. I bought both double cavity moulds directly from FA.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v227/PhilHarris/250grLyman.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v227/PhilHarris/290gr454.jpg

They shot extremely well and never failed to cause a quick demise of the Whitetail bucks unfortunate enough to provide a clear shot. I shot only one large boar (400# +) with the 300 gr version from a frontal angle and the fragile linotype bullet destroyed five cervical and upper thoracic vertabrae (admittedly at very close range) in line with the shot. Not realizing that linotype breaks up on bone ineffectively, he died instantly. This was before I had a hardness tester but these bullets had to have been about a 20 BHN. So, in my estimation, that would be hard enough for the calibers you are planning to load for. Linotype was more plentiful then, to be sure, but an equivalent hardness in the correct diameter (for the FAs it was .452 on the nose), in a water quenched or heat treated alloy should work at least as well. On a good day (for me) from a rest (usually the spare in the back of my pickup), either of these bullets over a proper charge of H110 or W 296 would shoot inside an inch at 100 yds.
Best Regards,
chunkum

[454PB]

I find it interesting that neither of these F.A. designed boolits has a crimping groove. I've found my .454's to best the best inertia boolit pullers available.

[chunkum]

454PB,
I had lots of trouble with the phenomenon you describe with the early jacketed bullets when I had only the standard factory supplied roll crimp available. It was resolved by the development and use of the Lee Factory Crimp Die. (again, thanks to Mr. Baker's good advice). The first die set (and the last) I had for the .454 Casull was RCBS. I also initially purchased a Lee Taper Crimp die in this caliber for use with these cast bullets (because, as you've accurately observed, neither has a crimp groove), and it was effective in holding the cast bullets in place when firing a cylinder full at targets. I didn't load them quite as fast as I did the jacketed, but they were moving pretty good. I shot a lot of them and did not have the problem of bullets "jumping the crimp" that I had with the jacketed bullets. Of course, the LFCD, judiciously applied, also worked/works well with the cast linotype. and later on, as best I can recall now without my notes, I used it for both types of bullet. The only "glitch" that I had with the cast linotype was a rebound effect after sizing in the Lyman 450 with a .452 die that sometimes resulted in too tight a fit in the cylinder throats. A change to a .451 die gave perfect .452 bullets after the rebound and solved this difficulty. I suspect that trying to use the standard roll crimp of the RCBS dies may have resulted in inadequate neck tension and "jumping" problems. This may well be the reason these moulds had a short production life span.
Best Regards,
Chunkum

[Lloyd Smale]

Im another caster that is in the harder is better school of thought. But bottom line is felix hit it on the head. Guys will spend hours at the range trying differnt powder and primer combos but are bullheaded in what they think is a proper alloy and stick with it. Bottom line is varying alloys in your loads is probably the biggest variable in what makes a gun shoot well. Not only does it effect the way the bullet enguages the rifleing but just small differnces in the weight caused by different alloys can make a world of differnce in accuarcy. Bottom line is any alloy of 8bh or harder will plow through a whitetail. Wws make excelent hunting bullets for just about any caliber. When i do load developement for a gun. I usually try at least ww #2 and 5050 ww/lyno and see which shoots the best. For the big guns like the linebaughs i mostly stick with 5050 because its proven in testing and hunting big animals that it has what it takes to break big bones and is usually a very accuarte alloy. Im also another one that doesnt beleive in water dropping bullets. to big of variations in hardness due to the fact that its to hard to control the temp when dropping them. Someday when the lyno drys up i may have to fool more with it. But ive allways had better luck with accuracy with alloyed bullets and the only bullets ive ever seen that fractured in testing were water dropped. You will hear all kinds of horor storys of lynotype bullets fractureing but we done some pretty hard testing of them and at handgun velocitys it just isnt so. As far as bullets bumping up i wont go into that, Ive voiced my opionions on that in other posts and have got slamed for it. But I will only preach what i know for fact and I know that in my 50-60 handguns and many others ive done load developement for. countless hours sitting at a bench shooting groups and doing penetration testing that 9 times out of 10 a harder bullet especially one that contains a good amount of tin to help fillout will out shoot a softer bullet and outpenetrate it also. Between my buddy and myself we have reams of loading data accumulated over many years that will back up this thought. But like felix said every gun is its own animal and your cheating yourself if you dont try differnt alloys in it.

[Bass Ackward]

Im another caster that is in the harder is better school of thought.

When i do load developement for a gun. I usually try at least ww #2 and 5050 ww/lyno and see which shoots the best. For the big guns like the linebaughs i mostly stick with 5050 because its proven in testing and hunting big animals that it has what it takes to break big bones and is usually a very accuarte alloy.


Lloyd,

The problem with cast is in the definitions.

I consider soft is pure to about 12 BHN. Medium is from 12 to 22BHN and hard is from 22 to about 38 is as hard as I have seen.

So if 50/50 is your mix at 17/18, you are really a medium kinda guy and not the hard man you have led us all to believe.

Lloyd, Lloyd, Lloyd. Shame on you now.

[44man]

Bass is right. I always say hard cast too and what I mean is harder then WW metal. Mine run around 18 Brinnel, harder then that might break in game. Like Felix says, hard and tough.

[Lloyd Smale]

Funny thing is the girlfreind would probably agree with you!!!
Lloyd,

The problem with cast is in the definitions.

I consider soft is pure to about 12 BHN. Medium is from 12 to 22BHN and hard is from 22 to about 38 is as hard as I have seen.

So if 50/50 is your mix at 17/18, you are really a medium kinda guy and not the hard man you have led us all to believe.

Lloyd, Lloyd, Lloyd. Shame on you now.

[44man]

OOPS, I was testing my air cooled and WW boolits when I posted 18 Brinnel. My others are 26 to 28. I guess that puts me in the harder but tough area. I use softer boolits for plinking to save alloys.
I have never had one break up unless I hit steel. I was roaming the field behind my woods with a metal detecter and found one of my boolits that went through a target, came off the ground, through brush and tree limbs and it was still in perfect shape with clear, sharp rifling marks.
Hitting the steel plates will turn them to dust and I have not saved any boolit no matter what it is. I thought an angled plate with sand below would allow me to collect lead, but there are no chunks left and there is a large ditch at the bottom.

[Bucks Owin]

I find it interesting that neither of these F.A. designed boolits has a crimping groove. I've found my .454's to best the best inertia boolit pullers available.

Does Freedom Arms use a sealer in their factory loads to bind the bullet in the case or what? No crimp seems odd....

Dennis


BTW, the asphalt like stuff for painting "swamp cooler" tanks would make an acceptable sealer I bet. I've often thought about trying it place of a crimp....
According to George Nonte Jr, that is like what the ammo manufacturers use...

[chunkum]

The bullets shown were designed for FA for their customers who wanted to use cast for their .454s, but, to the best of my knowledge, FA has never manufactured ammo utilizing cast bulets, and used a standard commercial crimp on the 454 ammunition they did manufacture. As stated in the post, both of the bullets from the moulds discussed stayed in place nicely with the Lee Taper and later the LFCD.
As I'm sure you well know, the primary force holding the loaded bullets in place is the neck tension as much if not more than whatever crimp is used. It's been pointed out that too much roll crimp can actually lessen the neck tension resulting in loaded bullets being held less securely rather than more. Bows out the area behind the crimp, as best I recall.

I don't know about the asphalt stickum. Early on, when struggleing with the factory jacketed bullets jumping crimp on my reloads, I tried a tiny drop of Elmers 5 min epoxy on the upper inside edge of the case. Not a good idea. The bullet clung to the brass and tried to pull it out with it when it was fired. Result was a case torn in two pieces with the front of it securely wedged into the front of the chamber, and necessitated a trip to the gunsmith to remove it. I think I've got both pieces lying around the bench somewhere. If I can find them, I'll scan them and post a pic. I think the military used the stuff they put on their ammo primarily for the purpose of sealing them rather than hold them in place, but I suppose that the latter may have been part of it as well.
Best Regards,
chunkum