Adding tin to WW lead?

[RKJ]

Guy's, First I want to say thank you for some very good information and enjoyable reading from this forum. I've gotten some great tips and ideas from y'all. My question is: Do I need to add tin to WW's for shooting at different velocities in 9mm, .45 ACP and .44 mag? I will most likely keep the velocity low on the .44 but would like to push some max velocity every once in awhile just for grins. The 9mm and .45 will be pushed to near max. I have some ingots that I made that have an alloy mixed in that was 3% antimony (about 26 pounds, but as I put all my ingots in one bucket I'm not sure which of those are which) I appreciate the help and I'm sure this has been asked before, so I apologize for the redundancy. Thanks again.

[Springfield]

Tin doesn't harden bullets all that much, you need the antimony for that.

[JeffinNZ]

Tin makes the lead flow better by reducing surface tension. I also discovered (the hard way) it reduces the max BHN WW will heat treat to.

[RKJ]

Thanks guys, I had alloy and antimony confused. I did a search and think I've found my answer. At least I'll do some more reading. :) But, I have another question. Can I use the WW alloy as is without excessive leading? I'm sure each gun is different, but as a general rule for max velocity is this ok?

[Shiloh]

Be careful when adding. This is the most expensive part of the alloy. It doesn't take much.
When adding to assist fillout of the mold, add only a little and try turning up the heat.

I get good boolits with soft range lead adding a very small amount of tin and turning up the heat.

SHiloh

[Stick_man]

You ask if you need to add tin to wheelweights. My answer is it depends on which type of wheelweights you have. The stick-on type are generally considered pure lead (except for those that are Zn or Fe). To those, you will want to alloy the lead with some tin and antimony to push them above about 850-900 fps. The clip-on weights already have both antimony and tin in them so should be good for up to about 1200 fps air cooled.

One of the best things you can do for preventing leading is to slug your barrels to find exact dimension. Then, size your cast boolits to .001 over that, use a decent lube, and you are good to go. Undersized or oversized boolits leave all kinds of lead in the barrels.

Happy casting!

[windrider919]

I shoot a lot of .45 cal rifle (100 RPMonth) and at least 500 .45ACP each month. I could never afford this without cheap WW from my local tire shop. I have read many magazine articles and multiple books about casting and the addition of tin to lead. After years of experimenting with my mix I now standardize with 8lbs WW (melted, fluxed n cleaned then poured into ingots for later alloying) plus 2lbs pure plumbers lead to which I add 16inches of lead free solder [tin] (about 1.5oz). My moulds fill out nicely and I can shoot from 800 to 2000FPS without leading (with the bullets being sized and lubricated right of course). Without the tin I did not get consistent weights (from voids/bubbles) or corner/groove fill-out so had to scrap n remelt too many bullets. My testing showed LESS leading from the addition of 1 or 2 % lead. Since I believe in the Big Thumper theory of ballistics I don't worry about either bullet hardness or expansion because if I accurately shoot one of my bullets through the boiler room of anything on North America up to and including a charging Peterbuilt, it is going down. This has been tested on coyote, feral dog, deer, hog n boar, brown bear and elk n sheep. My bullet ENTERS the animal with more frontal area than most expanding bullets leave with and wound channels and blood trails are the proof it is a good theory.

So the short answer is : Yes, use some tin in your mix.

[MtGun44]

You seem to be worried that unless the boolits are hard enough, you will get leading.

This is NOT true. Hardness is almost totally disconnected from leading for pistols. You can
get good accy and no leading from very soft boolits with proper fit to the barrel, a good
boolit design and a good lube. A very hard boolit with a crappy lube and undersized for
your barrel (an all too common situation with commercial "hard cast" boolits) will lead
like crazy.

Fit the boolit to the barrel (about .001 or .002 oversized is a great place to start), for
a semi-auto or to the throats for a revolver, use a known good boolit design
suitable for the application and a good lube - NRA formula 50-50
beeswax - alox is a good starting point. Once you get this working, you can start fiddling
with hardness, velocity, different designs and different lubes.

Wheelweight alloy with a touch of tin added if necessary to help fill out the mold well
is a great alloy for pistol shooting. Air cooled, it will work for most applications. If you
feel the need for hardness (I never do, including 1400 fps .357 mag and 1300 fps .44 mag
loads with no leading) you can water drop or heat treat.

Straight aircooled wheelwt alloy is a great starting point for pistols and even for moderate
loads in many rifle calibers.

I believe it was Ronald Reagan that said "It isn't what we don't know that is the
problem as much as what we DO know that isn't true." This seems to be a
big truth for boolit casting and loading!

Bill

[truckmsl]

For higher power pistol loads, Ive found it helpful to use a powder that burns slow enough such that the pressure peaks a bit later to give the boolit a chance to fully engage the rifling first.

[RKJ]

Thanks guys. The WW's are mostly clip-on with just a few stick-on thrown into the pot when smelting. I would approximate 96% clip-on weights. I had figured to water quench them for a couple of reasons, mostly because I am an absent-minded imbecile and I would pick up (hopefully no more than once) a fresh cast bullet to look at. :) I also like the idea of the quick hardening I would achieve by doing it. I haven't slugged any of the barrels and haven't started making bullets yet but wanted as much info as I could get prior to getting started. I really appreciate everybody's help.

P.S. So far I've got about 350 lbs. of ingots and feel the need for much much more, y'all were right it does become an obsession.

[prs]

Tin is relatively expensive. The need of using it, and how much, depends upon how much trouble you have getting good fillout with proper technique. WW alloy comes to you with some small amount of tin, enough to serve very well, IF your smelting technique does not have you skimming it off with the dross. Get the steel clips and zinc floaters out early,BUT use flux when doing so. Then get the heat of the batch up to flux flash point (I prefer beeswax, but fat or paraffin or pitch saw dust will do) and hold it there as your stir, flux and then de-dross again. Adding tin that is not needed is wasteful and waste is a sin; thus its a sn to waste tin.

prs

[MtGun44]

Quenching is NOT quick hardening. It takes days to weeks for the hardening to occur - it is
called aging.

Why do you think you need harder boolits than air cooled wheel wts? You should
slug your barrels and measure cyl throats BEFORE you buy a mold. Fit is THE
most important first step for success with boolits. Hardness is way down the
list, but most newbies obsess over it and want "hard" boolits. Not worth
worrying about for most pistols, at least initially. More important with rifles, for sure.

As far as burning yourself by picking up a freshly cast boolit - it is fine to do this,
you ARE going to be wearing leather gloves, aren't you? Recommended. Your
plastic surgeon will thank you.

Bill

[Cherokee]

I use air cooled wheel wehights + Tin (2% max) for midrange to max loads. With proper fit, no leading.

[RKJ]

Quenching is NOT quick hardening. It takes days to weeks for the hardening to occur - it is
called aging.

Why do you think you need harder boolits than air cooled wheel wts? You should
slug your barrels and measure cyl throats BEFORE you buy a mold. Fit is THE
most important first step for success with boolits. Hardness is way down the
list, but most newbies obsess over it and want "hard" boolits. Not worth
worrying about for most pistols, at least initially. More important with rifles, for sure.

As far as burning yourself by picking up a freshly cast boolit - it is fine to do this,
you ARE going to be wearing leather gloves, aren't you? Recommended. Your
plastic surgeon will thank you.

Bill

Bill, Yes I'm wearing leather gloves and eye protection. I also wear long sleeves cotton sweatshirt) and a hat and boots. I've read too many stories here not to be cautious. As for the harder boolits, I'm trying to learn what to do. I've read that water quenching makes for a "harder" boolit and years ago running a .45 and S&W 629 with store bought cast I had a lot of leading. So far I haven't seen any problems with leading but I'm running a lot less velocity now. I don't believe that I will go for max velocity from any of my handguns as it isn't all that pleasant to shoot but I might at some time and want to alleviate that problem. As Barney said; I want to Nip it Nip it in the bud. :) Maybe I'm putting the cart before the horse here but it wouldn't be the 1st time I've done that. :) Again thanks for the time to help, I appreciate it all. Joe


P.S. I saw last night that some thought that I was drawing while drinking because of my avatar. :) Nope, that is a Paint drawing my 2 yo Grandson and I did awhile back. I kinda liked it so used it for my avatar, you can see his and my names there.

[sqlbullet]

As for the harder boolits, I'm trying to learn what to do. I've read that water quenching makes for a "harder" boolit and years ago running a .45 and S&W 629 with store bought cast I had a lot of leading. So far I haven't seen any problems with leading but I'm running a lot less velocity now. I don't believe that I will go for max velocity from any of my handguns as it isn't all that pleasant to shoot but I might at some time and want to alleviate that problem. As Barney said; I want to Nip it Nip it in the bud.

As Yoda taught, you must unlearn.

Your leading years ago was almost certainly not because the bullets were soft. It was because they were small. Factory ammo has to chamber in even the tightest chamber out there. The probability you had this gun is low. When you fired these small bullets, hot gas escaped around them and created your leading issues.

Bullet fit is KING!

Bullet lube is QUEEN!

Hardness might be a knight.

Keep in mind many of the guys here shooting high-power rifles are doing so with air cooled wheel weights. But, they have been meticulous about the fit and matching the lube to the velocity and pressure they expect.

[MtGun44]

+1 on what sqlbullet said.

Bill

[WHITETAIL]

+1 +1 on what was said about boolet fit.:cbpour:

[RKJ]

I'm going to go down this morning and slug the barrels. I was thinking that bore size and bullrt size might have been the answer as IIRC in the earlier .44 I was shooting .429 hard cast, I slugged the barrel back then but don't recall the dimensions now. (I've slept since then) but am shooting .430 hard cast/jacketed now. This gun seems to shoot a lot more accurate than the previous one. I understand there are a LOT of variables involved and bore size is just one of many. I'll post the sizes later on today and get everyone's ideas again. Thanks again, joe