Wc860 & 45-70

[Junior1942]

Anybody tried WC860 with 400 to 500 gr cast in 45-70? I'm wanting BP velocity of 1150 fps or so.

[9.3X62AL]

Junior--

Most of my WC-860 work in 45-70 involves the Lee 405 grain plain base. Minus a kicker load (duplexing), it's just a mess--very poor combustion and losts of trash left in the bore, even with 100% density and Fed 215 primers.

3.0 grains of IMR-4198 (actually, a 22 LR case-full) underneath 48.0 x WC-860 gives less unburned powder in the bore, but velocities only run about 1000 FPS, if that.

6.0 x 4198 under 46.0 x WC-860 cleans up very well and gives "spec" velocities to the Lee 405 (1300 FPS). This load and the above load are accurate, the faster load seems a lot more useful in the field.

Recently, I tried 6.0 x 4198 under 44.0 x WC-860 with a 535 grain long-nosed RN pattern provided by one of the Burritoistos who doesn't post here (Glenn). I didn't chrono these or even try them on paper, but they did very well on the 200 meter dinger plate at our range and WHOMPED that critter a LOT harder than the 405's @ 1300 FPS did. Methinks some chronography and paper targeting would be a good plan. These loads seem to really be on a level significantly above that of the 405's at 1300--which is no slouch in its own right, either.

In other uses of WC-860, I put together 100% density loads of the stuff (60.0 grains) into 30-06 cases under Lyman #311291, and they ran about 2150 FPS with very little trash in the bore after firing. A heavier boolit might clean the trash up--cause better combustion--and shoot very well in that caliber. Gotta latch onto a heavier mold for the "small 30's" I suppose.

In 6.5 x 55, slightly compressed loads of WC-860 (55.0 grains) gave just under 2500 FPS to Hornady 140 grain j-words in my Ruger 77's 22" tube. That's not quite "spec" ballistics, but I don't think a deer would know the difference. Some of the Hornady 160 RN's would probably be the perfect match in 6.5 x 55 with this powder, but might not shoot as flat as the 140 spitzers if 200 yard+ shooting is in the cards.

To comment further on earlier comments that WC-860 is just "filler with attitude", that only applies to the 45-70. In neck-and-shoulder cases using heavy-for-caliber projectiles, it is VERY useful--in jacketed and cast applications. At $5 per pound, that's real attractive.

[Junior1942]

Thanks, Al. Looks like around 44, 45 grs WC860 with 450, 500 gr bullets will give me the 1150 fps or so Im looking for. I don't care about dirty as the rifle is an easy to clean Handi-Rifle.

[drinks]

Junior;
If you would like to step it up a little, I am shooting 60gr of WC 844 with a 320gr RFGC, a 95% load, 1900+ fps, about 33fp recoil and very clean burning.
It is a felt load with my 8lb Handi. ;D

[Junior1942]

Here's this morning's Chrony results with WC860 in 45-70:

Rifle = 22" barrel Handi-Rifle
Bullet = Lee 459-500-3R as cast in pure lead with two coats of Lee Liquid Alox.
Average bullet weight = 490.6 grs
Primer = CCI LR
Powder = WC860

All rounds loaded with a Lee "Whack it with a hammer" Loader. All readings were one shot only. No high pressure signs in any shot.

44 = 939;
46 = 886;
48 = 926;
50 = 1018;
52 = 1026;
54 = 1056 = 100% Loading Density;
56 = 1111;
Much powder residue in all the above shots. No crimp on the above rounds.

Final shot = 3.7cc/54.8 grs WC860 + styro wad on bullet base + 2 whack crimp = 1131 fps @ acceptable powder residue. Looks like this is my thicket deer load--if it groups ok, of course.

[Junior1942]

The load above grouped great. 3 shots @ 50 yards = 1 3/8". That's with a big Firesight hunting sight up front, so I'm tickled with the results. With a 75 yard zero, the load is ~1 1/2" high @ 50 yards and ~3 1/2" low @ 100 yards. In the thickets where I'll deer hunt with this load a 75 yard shot is a long shot.

Note in the above data how ignition/combustion improved as the powder load approached 100% loading density.

I'm planning an 8-day camping trip this deer season, and I'm thinking about casting the 500-3R on the campfire and loading the rounds with the Lee loader in my tent.

[Buckshot]

[QUOTE=Junior1942]

Note in the above data how ignition/combustion improved as the powder load approached 100% loading density.

QUOTE]

...............Well sure. As you added powder you accomplished several things all at the same time :-) You took up room, you increased the mass to be ejected, and it was just like adding a filler! All build pressure and more pressure = efficiency. So now put in 3.0grs of H4198 and all that 860 and see what happens.

............Buckshot

[Junior1942]

>So now put in 3.0grs of H4198 and all that 860 and see what happens.

Nope, I'm like Cajun humorist Justin Wilson--I'm a safety engineer. I wear a belt and suspenders, and I don't use duplex loads or fillers. Besides, 1131 fps is plenty due to my pure lead bullets and my adversion to recoil.

[Buckshot]

>So now put in 3.0grs of H4198 and all that 860 and see what happens.

Nope, I'm like Cajun humorist Justin Wilson--I'm a safety engineer. I wear a belt and suspenders, and I don't use duplex loads or fillers. Besides, 1131 fps is plenty due to my pure lead bullets and my adversion to recoil.

HA, I hear ya. Guess you're good to go then!

..............Buckshot

[Tatume]

6.0 x 4198 under 46.0 x WC-860 cleans up very well and gives "spec" velocities to the Lee 405 (1300 FPS). This load and the above load are accurate, the faster load seems a lot more useful in the field.

Monday I tried this load with 350 gr LBT LFN bullets, and got 1321 fps average velocity with an extreme spread of 65 fps. The charge was only lightly compressed. Tuesday I bumped up the main charge four grains, keeping the igniter charge the same. This resulted in good firm compression when the bullet was seated. At ten feet velocity was 1482 fps average for five shots, with extreme spread of 36 fps. There was no unburned powder in the barrel or empty cases. A twenty-shot group at 100 yards was four inches in diameter, fired with iron sights on a Winchester High Wall rifle with 24" barrel.

Thank you.

[9.3X62AL]

I've always been a bit reluctant to compress ball/spherical powders. That "rule of thumb" may not apply so strictly to the larger-grained WC-860. Dunno. Your results show positive outcomes for crowding the powder space in 45-70. Definite food for thought!

The primary attribute held by WC-860 was its low price--not many years ago, it ran $3/pound. With a fuel that cheap, it was worthwhile to develop loads for the stuff. It remains relatively affordable when it can be located. I haven't "run the numbers" on powder cost at its current price vs. conventional charges with commercial canister powders. It's not a big issue for me.

For my own part with the current 45-70 (Ruger #1), the WC-860 loads are among the few I've tried that can keep pace accuracy-wise with black-powder loads. That standard is 1.25" at 100 yards/5 shots, with the 405 grainer running about 1100 FPS atop 55.0 grains of Goex 2F. I suspect that a better grade of BP would boost velocity, but the grouping makes me smile.

[dualsport]

I just got 2 new molds for my H&R 45-70. The Lee 500 grainer and the Ranch Dog 350. I got gas checks from Gator here for the RDs but would like to mess with using that boolit both with and without gc. Also considering COW loads. The big Lee looks like it will hurt. Also, the lube grooves on the Lee 500 are pretty big; intended for black powder lube? Ever since I read Paul Mathew's book I've enjoyed experimenting with odd 45-70 loads. First in a #3 which I regret selling, now in an H&R. Any more loads using these boolits? Anyone? I have the 405 Lee but it has never shot well due I believe to it's skimpy diameter.

[grumman581]

According to this, 13 gr of Red Dot will give 1157 fps... That should work out to be around 1204 ft-lbs...

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/4570g405_dat.htm

I just finished loading 13 gr of "Promo" ("Red Dot" equivalent per weight according to Alliant) in three .45-70 cartridges with LPM primers and will be testing it out next time I get a chance... Looks like it might make for a fairly economical load... About $2 per box of 20 equivalent, not factoring in the cost of the brass...

[wgr]

could you use red dot are 2400 for for the kicker?and 50/55 grains of wc860

[9.3X62AL]

Dunno, WGR. Might be worth a try, start small and work up.

A lot of my experimentation and practice went on hiatus for the last several months due to medical distractions. I think that (insert Anglo-Saxon epithet here) is behind me now, and I'm hoping to explore the 45-70 a bit more this Spring and Summer.

I imagine the folks with Handi Rifles have the same issue I have with my Ruger #1--weight of rifle. That is, the lack thereof. I warmed up some loads to DefCon 3 levels with Lyman #462550, and recoil on my end was much like that at the target I'm certain. I did the same stunt with Hornady 350 redcoats soon after I bought the rifle, and I swear my shoulder blades met one another. Tear drops and snot-bubbles, about like tacking Jerome Bettis head-on.

In short, most of my 45-70 work gets done at 1873 ballistics these days. And why? Well--to quote Ammohead--"Ya seen many buffalo lately?"

[grumman581]

I imagine the folks with Handi Rifles have the same issue I have with my Ruger #1--weight of rifle. That is, the lack thereof. I warmed up some loads to DefCon 3 levels with Lyman #462550, and recoil on my end was much like that at the target I'm certain. I did the same stunt with Hornady 350 redcoats soon after I bought the rifle, and I swear my shoulder blades met one another. Tear drops and snot-bubbles, about like tacking Jerome Bettis head-on.

Adding weight to a rifle is usually possible, so that is easy enough to fix... It might affect the balance of the rifle, but you can get the weight there... I've seen people drill holes in the butt stock and fill them with lead shot and epoxy... I've seen them drill a hole and put a solid piece of lead that same diameter in it... I saw one guy once who had created a leather lace on type butt pad with a layer of lead shot sewn inside of it... Kind of like how the saps / slappers / slap jacks that the police used to carry (minus the metal flat "spring", of course)...

[wgr]

Adding weight to a rifle is usually possible, so that is easy enough to fix... It might affect the balance of the rifle, but you can get the weight there... I've seen people drill holes in the butt stock and fill them with lead shot and epoxy... I've seen them drill a hole and put a solid piece of lead that same diameter in it... I saw one guy once who had created a leather lace on type butt pad with a layer of lead shot sewn inside of it... Kind of like how the saps / slappers / slap jacks that the police used to carry (minus the metal flat "spring", of course)...

i have a handi the buffalo classic. i have 3lb of lead in the stock and with hot loads it lets you know when it goes off

[9.3X62AL]

500 grains of lead beig launched at any usable velocity will let you know the primers functioned, no two ways about it. That 7.25# Ruger #1 is a delight to carry, just a little punishing if heavy loads are fired. No free lunch, I guess.

[grumman581]

500 grains of lead beig launched at any usable velocity will let you know the primers functioned, no two ways about it. That 7.25# Ruger #1 is a delight to carry, just a little punishing if heavy loads are fired. No free lunch, I guess.

From a theoretical energy management standpoint, I figure you have two options:

1. Have some sort of energy absorbing material act as a buffer between the firearm and your shoulder. This means either a pad on the firearm or on your shoulder.
2. Distribute the energy across a larger area. This could be accomplished with a stiffer material on a shoulder pad so that it would spread the impact across more of your shoulder.

[softpoint]

I've been reading this thread with interest, as my deer hunting is over for this year, I killed 2 bucks with the Lee 340 grain cast of pure lead and patched with 2 wraps of tracing paper, driven 1950 fps. That's my usual "around the ranch load" in a couple of Marlins. However, I have a 500 gr. RCBS mold that casts 520 gr. out of my scrap alloy, and I've been working on a subsonic hunting load for next year in the thick woods that utilizes that boolit at under 1050fps. :castmine:

[grumman581]

Just got back from shooting the 405 gr bullets with 13 gr of Alliant "Promo" ("Red Dot" equivalent). Actually, it's the first time I've fired this rifle since acquiring it a few weeks ago... Which also means that it's the first time I got to use the scope that was on it. At 74 paces (probably about 150 ft), I was putting the rounds in a lid from a 55g plastic drum while standing. Actually, they were all hitting on the left side of the drum lid, so that tells me that I need to adjust the scope a bit... Didn't have my chrono with me, so I don't know about the speeds... Recoil was acceptable... I used to shoot an old LC Smith double barrel 12-gauge both barrels at the same time when I was a kid, so compared to that, it's not that bad...

All in all, it appears that Red Dot / Promo would make a good powder for the distances that we see around here for hogs... Hard to beat the price when it only takes 13gr of powder to reload...

I really need to get some sort of shooting rest so I can zero in this scope... It's unlikely that I'm pulling EVERY shot to the left, right?