a note of thanks!

[RICKLANDES]

I joined a short time back and recently cast a starting lot of about 100 Lyman .45 cal "Postell" style bullets. I weighed these and most fell within =/- 1 grain of 442. I

I fired these out of a .45-120, having never loaded a BPCR before and got them to group into about 4-5" with a 15 to 20 mph wind at 100 yards. I will be trying these at the 200 and three hundred yard ranges as the wind cuts back.

I know that is far from what this rifle and load is capable of doing, but it very impressive to me to take your info, apply it and get what I felt were great starter groups. If I elimated the outside flyers, shot a a less windy day and put on the tang sight I would expect to see this cut in half.

That's it for now, just thought you all should know...Thanks again!:bigsmyl2:

[Blammer]

ahh, good shooting, and good going on casting the boolits.

time to learn to dope the wind! :)

[dragonrider]

Well done Rick.

[mnzrxer]

Nice work! I got into casting so I could shoot my 45 auto more, but my favorite cartridge to load is the 45-120. I don't really know why, but it is most likely the smell, smoke and huge BOOM.:smile: Enjoy!

[Lead Fred]

Do tell, holy black or smokeless?
veggie wad or grease cookie?
Filler?
Lets dial that bad boy in

[Southern Son]

Good stuff. What was the load, real gunpowder or that trendy new stuff? While we are on the subject of information, what rifle? Where is a picture of the rifle? These are all important things that we need to know.

[RICKLANDES]

OK heres the scoop. The new rifle is a Pederoseli Quigley in the .45-120 configuration. Cabelas had them on sale for $1699 with a competition tang rear sight and front globe with the insets. Have points will travel (or buy in this case...)

The load was based on new Norma brass, primer pockets were squared for even seating and ignition of the Fed 215M primers. I used a lead mix of 50/50 lead to w/w as that was as close as I could get to what I wanted for a snug fit to the bore. Pure lead was undersized and had too much wiggle room or so I thought. The w/w brought the size up so that a bullet tip when inserted into the muzzle would have a faint marking of the rifling.

I tried a 105 grain load as a start that was in the SPG manual, I had never done this before so I figured I would start there; it was less than impressive so I cleaned my brass and began again. As a note I live out in the woods and have a range in the back with 25/50/100/200/300 yard sand filled tires for my backstops. I figured this was a .45 "120" so I was going to start at 120 grains of single F BP and go from there. I tried 5 and they were all low. So much for the tight bullet to case w/o a firm crimp. Next was setting the bullet out farther to touch the lands. This was a no can do as there is only about 1 1/2 bottom grease grooves in the case mouth. So I tried the load with two inserted. This was not good as the load was just not "sounding" right. It seemd there was no solid "boom" but more like a poorly loaded flintlock...kinda soft sounding?

Then I thought the grease grooves cannot be hanging out for a good hunting load as all sorts of stuff seems to make its way into my pockets during a hunt and these should not be stuck to my shells. So I dropped 120 grains of single F thru a 24" drop tube from the #55 into the partially sized case, added a .030 veggie wad on top (from Buffalo Arms) and compacted the load to have the first driving groove flush with the case mouth. I gave the loads a firm taper crimp. The powder was compacted about 1/2 the length of this bullets 4 rider and grease grooves or about 1/2". Powder is just cheap Lidu chinese fireworks powder. I will be trying some Goex in FF before long. I did not screen and powder just used it from the can.

BOOM! things then started coming together. Insert blowtube between shots 3 blows and load aim and fire. Mental note to self DO NOT inhale the air for the blow tube from the blow tube BP smoke is not all that tasty (IMHO :))

I am using a RCBS Rock chucker I bought back in about 1981 or so. I had the base fitted with a piece of 3/4 channel iron that has the mounting studs secured into the top and the underside has 2 heavy thumbscrews to secure this to my stainless steel top bench. I have a similar 30" tube that supports the #55 powder measure and drop tube on the right side of the bench made from alum flat stock. This also has a thumbscrew lock mount to attach it to the bench. All dies are Lyman (save my trim die...it is a RCBS)

I am cleaning the spent cases with a squirt of Dawn and hot water. Rinsing before a 250 oven dry and then a final clean in the sidewinder. All cases were checked for OAL prior to loading to have no pressure trouble.

I plan to ONLY use BP in this rifle. I purchased it for the purpose of a BPCR. Substitiutes for BP are fine if one cares to use them; no judgement here. I just really like the special "BOOM" that only BP can deliver.

One note, I am using one of the new Hornady elctronic scales. These are about $25. It is great. I turn it on, put a 3-M sticky on the plate, push tare and then set each bullet on it to weigh; powder checking is equally fast. I think this is more than worth the money. Much faster than the 5-0-5 ever could be. Even though I use the 5-0-5 as a cross reference...one can never be to careful.

I guess that covers the experience. If I missed something let me know. Most importantly thanks again for all your efforts on my behalf.

[mnzrxer]

I have two additional questions that are for my own information. First, what was the temperature when you shot? Second, what lube did you use on the bullets? I live up in MN and thought I had a decently accurate load figured out until I tried shooting it at about 35°. Velocity was all over and accuracy was not nearly what it was when I shot at warmer temps.


I tried 5 and they were all low.

Low relative to what? (I guess that's 3 questions)

[wistlepig1]

Good deal on your bullits. About 25 years ago I had an old friend that used his 45-120 to hunt elk and they didn't think it was funny. When He went hunting with us, he was down to less an a box of shell and at that time he couldn't find anymore. My question is has it become more popular and are shell for the 45-120 available now---- just nosey, the old man is gone now but I am sure he would have a big smile if it where back! thanks

[RICKLANDES]

I have two additional questions that are for my own information. First, what was the temperature when you shot? Second, what lube did you use on the bullets? I live up in MN and thought I had a decently accurate load figured out until I tried shooting it at about 35°. Velocity was all over and accuracy was not nearly what it was when I shot at warmer temps.
Low relative to what? (I guess that's 3 questions)

1. Hello neighbor from MN, I am in central WI about 75 miles north of Madison. The temps were a very unusally warm 45-55 F for this time of year. Snow was still on the ground.

Since, I believe soft, moist fouling is key to consistency in these loads (or so everything I have read says) I am going to say the cold may have froze the moisture in the air and any you placed in the baarrel with a blow tube. Here is why I think this...I was shooting my .54 cal flintlock (a Jim Chambers Early Lancaster with a Rice barrel) in very cold temps and I use a moose milk mix with Balitol, Murphy's, water, isoporpyl and lestoil as a swap between shots. I got this nasty chunks of fouling in the barrel that were near impossible to get out even after the barrel was brought to room temp. I thought I had somehow pitted the barrel since the last shoot and even removed the breechplug for inspection. I took a wire brush and scubbed the barrel shiney smooth again. I never had that happen before, just on that day. Based on that I have to believe you had a similar experience.

Just a thought are you sure on the cool day that you had removed any storage oil from the barrel prior to firing? Oil as you know can raise troubles with BP loads.


2. Spg applied with a Lub-a-matic press using a 135 top punch and a 458 die.
I must admit the venison tallow I render down for mixing with bird seed may find its way to a 50/50 beeswax mix just to keep things fun.

Just an extra note here that I found really helpful. When I cast bullets for .50 cal or 44 cal pistol I use RCBS, Blue Angel and Red Rooster. I run into the problem of left over lube in the sizer and do not want to mix them. I used a Milwaukee heat gun after removing the lube pressure stem. I locked the press into my pattern vise and tipped iit face forward to the right side of the bench. Under this I put an old alum pie pan. The heat gun melted the lube out as slick as could be and it dripped right into the pan for next times use. Everyone probably already knew that, but to me it was a new trick that worked well.

3. Low relative to my point of aim; so low as to hit dirt some 20 feet in front of the target. I am only shooting the regular barrel "buckhorn" sights at this time. My POA is about 20" below my hitting point. I figured I will work up my loads to what I think they should be and then regulate the sights to what they need to be for a given zero by silver soldering a piece to the top or filing the balde down. I have been know to use soft solder on the top of sights for testing new loads before making a final sight of the correct height and shape. The soft solder can be put on with an electric solder gun in secs, filed to shape and then height as needed.

I like to remember the F-O-R-S for sights...front opposite rear same as I forget somedays which way does what then testing really becomes fun[smilie=b:

I do have a tang sight that is still in the box. I will play with that later after I get thru some more load development.

There are .45-120 loads available from BuffaloArms for about $83 a box of 20 and Ten-X from Cabelas for...are you sitting down (?) $144 for 20. I have shot the Buff loads and cannot tell you good nor bad as I was just firing the new rifle offhand at a few chunks of old telephone pole. I do have one box that is unopennned that I may try in the future.

Thanks for your help/interest with my project.

[montana_charlie]

Rick,
You are certainly a unique form of newby.
Evaluating the 'correctness' of a trial load by it's sound is something unexpected from a first-timer. Knowing that it sounds like a "poorly loaded flintlock" makes for enjoyable reading.

I could (perhaps) answer some questions about various 'mechanics' of BPCR loading, but I doubt that you need any actual 'advice' from me. You seem quite capable of determining what things to wonder about...then discovering your own answers.

I started out using magnum primers, too, but only because that's what I had. They aren't particularly 'necessary'.

I am surprised to learn that firecracker powder comes in a 1F granualtion.

Your bullets impact low when using the barrel sight. Have you tried it with the ladder erect?

CM

[RICKLANDES]

Mr. Charlie,

I am in your debt as I have mis-spoken the firecracker powder in 1F as it is most correctly imported here from China as a "fireworks" powder. Sorry for the misinfo. It is used for many things here. However it is as I have heard imported with fireworks as to do otherwise makes it a munitions propellant that violates a Chinese munitions ban signed by Mr. Clinton some years ago. I also understand that it is available in various granulations.

My most humble apologies, sir.

I had a brick of 215M's that I had around and used those as a component of opportunity. I tend to use mag. primers often as much of the shooting/hunting that I do is in colder temps so the mags help in the ignition department. I will have to try some of the 210's and see if there are notable differences.

The major one I would want to watch for is the combustion of the BP. I am thinking that a non mag may not give as clean of a burn. I have really no clue why I think that to be true; it just seems like it should be. Perhaps the greater spark ignites the charge in a more consistent manner. My mental analogy falls to charring a good handrolled puro before puffing it to life. The complete ignition of the full end makes for a better burn.

The bullets that were noncrimped were quite low; a firm taper crimp elevated the impact by about 24 inches??? I have to guess that amount as these low POI's were "worm burners".

I set-up a computer generated 8.5 x 11 target on a 48 x 48 square of cardboard. I then started firing the test loads noted above. The final "group" was that of a POA at the base of the paper target and about 7" above it for the POI.

By the way I have stacked sand filled tires behind the cardboard as a safety measure; even though there is a heavy woods behind the range, I do not take any chances with where people may wander private property or not.

I have a question for you (and others that may care to chime in). I have purchased a Montana powder compression die. The current loads are compressing the powder about 1/2" or about 1/2 of the grease grooved area. I am currently using the bullet, during the seating process to do this compression. Do you know if using the compression die and then doing the seating and taper crimp will give a better result? (I know each barrel is unique, but generally speaking???) I do not think the pressure to do the compression is enough to distort the base, but I have not dis-assembled a load to check this...yet.
Thanks as always!

[montana_charlie]

I have mis-spoken the firecracker powder in 1F as it is most correctly imported here from China as a "fireworks" powder.
My most humble apologies, sir.
The clarification is appreciated, but the apology was unnecessary.


I had a brick of 215M's that I had around and used those as a component of opportunity.
As did I.

I am thinking that a non mag may not give as clean of a burn. I have really no clue why I think that to be true; it just seems like it should be. Perhaps the greater spark ignites the charge in a more consistent manner.
I'm not an historian, but I can pass along some history gleaned fron others, who are.
When smokless powder first appeared on the scene, it was found that a primer with more 'fire' was needed to ignite reliably. For a time, primers were offered in two types...the originals for blackpowder, and the new, stronger ones, for smokeless.

Today, we have only the strong ones available. And many 'picky' shooters feel they are too strong. For that reason you see many using large pistol primers in their rifle ammo, and they would avoid magnum rifle primers like the plague.

It's a subject with many layers of information and theory, but almost everybody agrees that standard primers are 'plenty'.

One thing though...if you are getting satisfactory performance with a magnum primer, I can't see any reason to stop using it.

The bullets that were noncrimped were quite low...
I only mentioned the low hits as a segue to reminding you your rear sight can provide a higher 'notch' if you erect the ladder. That might be useful until you mount the tang sight.

I have a question for you (and others that may care to chime in). I have purchased a Montana powder compression die. The current loads are compressing the powder about 1/2" or about 1/2 of the grease grooved area. I am currently using the bullet, during the seating process to do this compression. Do you know if using the compression die and then doing the seating and taper crimp will give a better result?
I don't recognize "a Montana powder compression die" but I assume it is essentially a neck expander die body with a compression slug instead of an expander.
It is probably finely adjustable for setting the depth to which it will compress the charge...and the end of the steel slug is (perhaps) more precisely shaped than the base of a lead bullet. It is certainly less subject to damage than the bullet base.
In any event, it's generally considered a bad idea to compress the charge with a soft lead bullet. It is assumed that the pressure will distort some part of the bullet...to the detriment of the original design.

But, again...if what you are doing is working for you, that is more useful to you than advice from others.

CM

[mnzrxer]

The heat gun melted the lube out as slick as could be and it dripped right into the pan for next times use.

:groner: Such a simple solution. I have my sizer filled with SPG and always wondered how I would clean it out if I wanted to try something else. Thanks for the tip.

I am shooting the same rifle you are, but I have the Soule or tang sight mounted on mine. I also have a globe front sight rather than the original blade. I bought the gun second hand so I don't know the height of the blade, but with the center of my globe at 0.87" above the bore centerline and my rear sight set for 200 yards the buckhorn is just below my line of sight through the peep. If I try to shoot 100 yards the buckhorn on the barrel is in the way. So, it seems to me that the original blade is likely too short as is my globe sight.

To get back to my low temperature issues I have had. I posted about this in the BP section and the lube was brought up as an issue. I don't think any moisture was freezing, but the air was certainly dry and it could be difficult to blow enough moisture into the barrel to keep the fouling soft. I had hoped to do more experimentation with this during the winter, but I seem to have lost the chance now.

I have learned that my rifle likes the boolit seated out a ways to get better accuracy. Right now I am loading my SAECO #745 525gr boolit with one lube groove exposed. This gives me an OAL of 4.075" and I can feel the nose of the boolit fitting nicely into the bore when I chamber a round. Since you are shooting a 440ish gr bullet and compressing 1/2" or so I assume your OAL is quite short.

One last observation I have made in regard to primers is that I have indeed found my cases to be cleaner with the magnums. The standard WLR primers would leave a loose, porous black crust over the entire inside of the fired case where the WLRM primers had almost no loose residue. However, up until recently I was trying to press GOEX Cartridge into service in my cases (it was all I could find fairly local). It seemed okay, but it is a much finer granulation than Fg, so I will be retesting the standard vs magnum primers again with Fg.

[RICKLANDES]

Here is a link for the "Montana" die as an FYI http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?id=0002893212655a&type=product&cmCat=SEARCH_all&returnPage=search-results1.jsp&Ntk=Products&QueryText=powder+compression+die&sort=all&N=0&Nty=1&hasJS=true&_dyncharset=ISO-8859-1&_DARGS=%2Fcabelas%2Fen%2Fcommon%2Fsearch%2Fsearch-box.jsp.form23

Mnzrxer...I do not know if you internal case crust is a sign of the primers not being hot enough as I had seen a similar situation that was from too light of a taper crimp. I am not suggesting your analysis is incorrect, but you may want to try various crimps, say no, medium and firm to see if it cleans up the case, in addition to your primer experiments.

[mnzrxer]

In my tests the magnum (WLRM) and non magnum (WLR) primers were fired alternately, 5 of each, on the same day. All of the cases were prepped the same, charged with powder the same and crimped the same. Only the non magnum primers had the crust. I use a pretty good crimp since I am only sizing my brass enough to just hold a boolit. I can seat my boolit to the wad with just thumb pressure.

I guess the biggest reason I like loading the BP cartridges is the variety of experiments I can find to do. Everyone in the sport seems to have their own formula for success and it is fun to talk about it here and then go try it out. I don't have a load I am completely happy with yet, but I know I will enjoy the search. Right now I am concentrating on variations of just primer, powder, wad and boolit to see how well I can get that to shoot before going to grease cookies, different types of wads, newspaper wads over the primer, etc.