Handloader annealing article has me thinking I screwed up!

[Patrick L]

I recently tried annealing for the first time. I did about 300 .30-06 cases I use exclusively for light cast boolit loads. I neck size them only, and I finally started to get a few splits after about 20+ loadings.

Based on what I read here on the board, I sat in a darkened room and slowly heated the necks of the cases with a propane torch until they started to glow, and then dropped them in a bucket of water. I did several with bare fingers, and never did the heads (where I was holding them) get even slightly warm to the touch. I would say the necks were in the flame about 10 seconds until they started to glow, and I spun the cases the whole time. Afterwards, I dried them, tumbled them and loaded them as usual.

Well, according to the article, you should never let the cases start to glow, and apparently I've ruined the cases. What gives?

[beanflip]

Hopefuly that you have done it right cause I did the same to 300 ...22-250 brass and also hoping I havent ruined them

[Mk42gunner]

I read that one of the top BPCR shooters resizes his cases twice after annealing to work harden his brass evenly.


Robert

[Calamity Jake]

As long as you didn't get them BRIGHT red your OK.

Make sure there DRY then size and load as you usually do.

[lwknight]

You did NOT hurt the cases. A low glow seen only in a low-light room is just fine.
I generally just go for the rainbow color change following the flame around.

In reality brass and copper can be heated just till it almost melts or starts oxidizing without really hurting anything since you want it soft anyway. That might make it too soft and at the least does not do any good that just good and hot won't do.

[Bloodman14]

You did not hurt a thing. When I anneal cases, I stand them up in a pan of shallow water, that covers the bottom 1/3 of the case; that way the head stays cold. Heat the necks evenly until you just see a glow around the neck; the color should just start to be visible. I let mine cool that way, as well. I don't think plunging them in cold water will help; it just may re-harden the brass!

[higgins]

Years ago I annealed some 8x57 cases I had formed from USGI .30/06 brass by dunking them up to the shoulder in molten lead for 8-10 seconds. It seems to have worked since I'm still using some of them after many trips through the sizing die. I did not use a thermometer, so if you have one you could get the lead closer to the optimum temperature. I decapped them so the lead could get inside the case, and inspected carefully for lead drips inside the case before loading.

lwknight's post reminded me of something I left out of my initial post. I didn't mention that I first dunked the case mouths in powdered graphite to cover them inside and out.

[felix]

Quenching does not harden brass, but stops the anneal from traveling down into the base. It takes at least 300F to do an anneal, and there is no way you can hold a case anywhere near that temp. So, hand holding during an anneal is quite OK. ... felix

[lwknight]

I'll throw out this tid bit of warning about annealing by lead dipping. First do not clean the brass first or lead can stick to it. It works like solder and even more so if there is tin in the lead. I suggest pure lead and dirty brass to be the least hassle.

[Patrick L]

I don't know, they seemed bright to me.

How will I know? Will I get more neck splits? Will I have some sort of catastrophic failure if I shoot the rounds? They neck sized, expanded, and crimped fine when I loaded them.

[MtGun44]

No problem with very soft necks other than they may not hold bullets or boolits with a lot
of neck tension. Too soft? Resize and expand a couple of times and you will reharden the
necks. Brass work hardens and does not quench harden.

Very soft necks will be weak at first loading, but they are fully supported by the steel chamber,
so they will fit to the chamber perfectly and seal better, good for low power loads that often
have soot on the front of the case due to hard brass not expanding to seal with low pressure
loads.

Bill

[DLCTEX]

Patrick L: No problem, that's the way I do it and have for more than 40 years. I used to heat the necks to a red glow in a bright room, with no problems.

[Eutectic]

The very best and most uniform anneal on cartridge cases is to have a process that allows the brass casing to slowly rotate in your torch flame.
Most take the anneal temperature too far in my observation. A 'dead soft' anneal may work OK for light cast boolit loads, but is a nightmare if brass is used in full power applications and it aggravates neck problems .
900 to 1000 degrees F is plenty. This is called 'blood red' by those knowing metallurgy/heat-treating and is the very first visible incandescent color you see. Working in very subdued lighting is best as mentioned, because the second you see the 'blood red' color you water quench. Cherry red will take your brass to full anneal at a temperature around 1500F.

Eutectic

[405]

Patrick L,
Sounds like you did it just right. Dittos to the post about the caution on lead dipping and soldering :(

I think the only way to screw it up with a long case like a 30-06 is to anneal the base til bright red hot then try some 50-60 thou psi hot loads.

The tricky cases are the shorter ones like the 45 Colt.... even then not much risk if sticking to reasonable pressures.

[.357]

a noob question i'm sure! But why would you anneal a case? I've never heard much about it, and my issue of handloader hasn't shown up yet.

[buck1]

Quenching does not harden brass, but stops the anneal from traveling down into the base. It takes at least 300F to do an anneal, and there is no way you can hold a case anywhere near that temp. So, hand holding during an anneal is quite OK. ... felix

Thats the way I see it. Should be fine.

[nicholst55]

a noob question i'm sure! But why would you anneal a case? I've never heard much about it, and my issue of handloader hasn't shown up yet.

You anneal brass once it work-hardens to prevent split necks and to restore neck tension on the bullet/boolit. IIRC, Mike Venturino at least used to anneal his BPCR brass every time he loads/loaded it. I usually anneal rifle brass every 5 loads, or so.

[Recluse]

Well, according to the article, you should never let the cases start to glow, and apparently I've ruined the cases. What gives?

With all due apologies and regard for Mike V, a shooter's shooter and a writer's writer who has our absolute respect and admiration here. . .

One of these days, one of today's gun magazine is actually going to research, write and publish something factually correct, beneficial, useful and based on firsthand experience all at the same time and in the same article.

You haven't ruined anything except perhaps your faith in the world of the gun-rag.

Remember: This is the same rag that published a story dissing one of our own here (BruceB) for dipping his mold in molten alloy. The writer made a sarcastic, disparaging remark about it--which was quickly refuted by a plethora of reloaders and casters with infinitely more combined wisdom and knowledge than the writer in question.

The only gun rags that still make it to our mailbox are the NRA rags--and that's because they come with the membership.

I wish we could take the best writer from each magazine, and put them all together to research, edit and publish a "super rag " so to speak. . .

:coffee:

[Shiloh]

Based on what I read here on the board, I sat in a darkened room and slowly heated the necks of the cases with a propane torch until they started to glow, and then dropped them in a bucket of water. I did several with bare fingers, and never did the heads (where I was holding them) get even slightly warm to the touch. I would say the necks were in the flame about 10 seconds until they started to glow, and I spun the cases the whole time.

Well, according to the article, you should never let the cases start to glow, and apparently I've ruined the cases. What gives?

You should be fine. If you heated in a bright room, you would not see the glow.
I have been doing it your way as well as standing in a can of water.

There is a glow and the blue tempering color change moves just past the shoulder.

By doing it your way, one produces brass that looks very similar to surplus military brass. If it works for them, it'll work for you as well.

Shiloh

[Andy_P]

Make a device like this for $2-$3 using hardware store components. Take a dark room and a propane torch with a medium flame, and as soon as the brass starts to show an orange tinge, dump it into water, then repeat. You can do 200 an hour quite easily. Unlike the "rotate in fingers method", there are no sore or burnt fingers, and the heating is more even. The whole device acts as a heat sink, and the threaded pipe shields the bottom part of the cartridge from the flame.

For my setup, I have two different lengths of the "Shield" part (the threaded pipe) that I use for longer or shorter lenghts of brass.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b356/kombayotch/Firearms%20Stuff/P1040718.jpg

[Eutectic]

Well thought out and simple but excellent fix Andy!

You will get uniform anneals with that easy set-up. The nipple as a heat shield/sink is great too..... No "Joe McGee" running them through the sizer a few times to re-harden and/or uniform them up for you!

Well done!
Eutectic

[MtGun44]

I don't know -- that looks pretty expensive. :kidding:

Heck, I'll bet those pipe fittings cost $2.

Seriously, that's a great idea. I need to anneal my 7.5x55 brass, starting to
get more neck splits than I used to, probably due to too many reloads.

One comment said that annealing was to "restore neck tension". This
is exactly backwards. As a case is resized it gets harder and stronger
from being 'worked', and becomes more like a spring. When you anneal
it you remove this hardness, fully annealing it makes it very soft. Think
coat hangar wire versus piano wire, both are steel, but one is very good for
a spring, the other just bends and stays put with much less springback.

So - while the neck tension after annealing would be very consistent since
all the case necks would be in the same condition, the neck tension would
be very low. Never worry, a few extra cycles thru the neck sizer will bring
the brass back to hardness pretty quickly.

Note that the blackpowder guys have no need for neck tension, the powder
charge is compressed and it locates the boolit, so even zero neck tension is
just fine. As a matter of fact, I think Mike V. has said that some of his loads
are such that he can just pull the boolit out with his fingers, IIRC. This is not
the case (no pun intended) with smokeless loads. We need substantial neck
tension for magnum handgun loads and neck tension plus a crimp for loads
that will be cycled thru a semi-auto, lever gun, or even bolt gun to ensure the
boolit or bullet stays put.

Bill

[geargnasher]

With all due apologies and regard for Mike V, a shooter's shooter and a writer's writer who has our absolute respect and admiration here. . .

One of these days, one of today's gun magazine is actually going to research, write and publish something factually correct, beneficial, useful and based on firsthand experience all at the same time and in the same article.

You haven't ruined anything except perhaps your faith in the world of the gun-rag.

Remember: This is the same rag that published a story dissing one of our own here (BruceB) for dipping his mold in molten alloy. The writer made a sarcastic, disparaging remark about it--which was quickly refuted by a plethora of reloaders and casters with infinitely more combined wisdom and knowledge than the writer in question.

The only gun rags that still make it to our mailbox are the NRA rags--and that's because they come with the membership.

I wish we could take the best writer from each magazine, and put them all together to research, edit and publish a "super rag " so to speak. . .

:coffee:

I think Castboolits, USA should have it's own magazine, and the executive editor should be an elected postition voted on by the subscribers, and the writers should be freelance, not staff.

Hey, I can dream, can't I?

Gear

[Shooter6br]

Good video on Ammosmith.com

[DLCTEX]

I use a 3/8" socket adapter in my cordless drill and choose whatever socket best fits the case being annealed. Spin and heat, then dump in water. Fast and easy.

[BeeMan]

MtGun44,

Sometimes work hardened case necks do result in less neck tension. Annealing is then required to bring tension back up to proper levels. For instance, I size rifle brass with a Lee collet die to 1.5 thou under boolit diameter, then expand the case mouth back to boolit diameter with a home made m-die.

When the neck gets too hard, it springs back more from the mandrel and there is not enough tension. The first indicator of this is less effort to expand the case mouth with the m-die. Annealing case necks restores the proper dimensions and tension at each step of brass prep and in the loaded cartridge.

For annealing, I use a propane torch in near darkness. The brass is held in a cheap deep well socket spun by an electric screwdriver. Heat in the outer cone of the flame until the faintest suggestion of color change moves past the shoulder. I'm talking color change due to oxidation, not glowing a dull orange. Tip the socket down to drop the brass into water and limit heat transfer towards the head of the case. This produces the typical color graduation from neck through shoulder seen with factory annealed brass that has not been polished.

BeeMan

[Von Gruff]

This is my set-up
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/003.jpg

I have one for each of the case sizes I use and the OAL of the case, socket, and cut off bolt is the same so location on stand is standard. I can get through them fairly quick;ly this way. I polish first as the colour change is easier to see and heat till the first colour change of a blue tinged rainbow effect moves over the shoulder then drop into stainless pan and air cool. No need for water.
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/004-1.jpg

Von Gruff.

[gray wolf]

ANDY P

I like that--and a very nice picture.

[DLCTEX]

Von Gruff: Harbor Freight has a set of three size socket adapters for about $5, or I found mine in a bargain display at the Hardware store. 1/4" hex shaft with 1/4, 3/8, and 1/2" socket drive.

[Shiloh]

Well done Andy P!!

Shiloh

[MtGun44]

BeeMan,

Excellent point!. I was thinking in terms of a normal sizer which over-reduces the neck and then expands it back from the inside.
With the (excellent) Lee collet type neck sizer, you have a limited capability to reduce the size and excessive elastic behavior
(very hard brass) you definitely would get more spring back. Given that the center rod absolutely limits the amount of
compression of the neck, you can't stand too much spring back. I have not had this problem personally, and I have used Lee
Collet neck sizers in some calibers.

Sounds like you are not fully annealing the cases, so you should still have good neck tension capability. I was worried that going
to fully soft condition would give you little capability for neck tension compared to brass in a harder condition.

Thanks for the info!

Bill

[BeeMan]

MtGun44, the Lee collet die experience has been been good for me as well. It required rethinking die dimensions and brass movement though. The resulting brass life and consistent performance help wring the most out of an increasing expensive component.

Andy_P and Von Gruff, nice pictures showing both tools and results.

BeeMan

[Mike Venturino]

I still lightly anneal all my BPCR Silhouette brass for each loading.

MLV

[Maineboy]

make this device for $2-$3 using hardware store components. Dark room, medium flame, as soon it it starts to show reddish tinge, dump it into water, then repeat. You can do 200 an hour quite easily. Unlike the "rotate in fingers method", there are no sore or burnt fingers, and the heating is more even. The whole device acts as a heat sink, and the threaded pipe shields the bottom part of the cartridge from the flame.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b356/kombayotch/firearms%20stuff/p1040718.jpg

nice!!

[Andy_P]

These are all just homemade versions of what Hornady sells (along with temperature indicating paste) for about $50.

http://blog.sinclairintl.com/files/2010/03/rod1.jpg

[Faret]

This is the way I rotate mine. Rcbs Trim Mate with cleaning rod and primer pocket uniformers.

[MtGun44]

Mike,

It's good to see that you are feeling well enough to post on the site. I hope things are going well
with you.

Am I correct that BPCR loads often or at least sometimes have almost or actually zero neck tension?

Seems like I remember you writing that this was common or at least used some times, and
that the boolit would be positively located by the compressed powder charge and often
some sort of over powder wad so a crimp or neck tension was not necessary.

Bill

[Mike Venturino]

Bill: It is true that some BPCR shooters use no neck tension. But I'm not one of them. I use .458" bullets and a .454" expander plug. I like them tight.

Thanks for the well wishes.
Mike

[244ack]

Has anybody had good success with using molten lead for annealing? How long should I hold the case neck in the lead before cooling?

[MtGun44]

Mike,

OK, thanks - one more tidbit into my 'BP cartridge info' memory stack. I would presume that brass
lasts forever when annealed at the neck every loading, plus you have exactly the same
condition of work hardening for each reload rather than something that changes each time
the brass is run thru the process.

Bill

[Daves1]

I believe this should be a "Sticky" ? Great information.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I have annealed quite a few 30/06 brass. never had a problem.
From your discription you are ok.
Norma did an experiment in the early 1970's ,IIRC, they shot 1 case over 90 times with annealing, every few rounds.
Do it every 10 or so firings & cases last forever it seens.

have heard that it does NOT work for strait walled cases very well, pistol cases???????
So wonder if it would work for the 444 marlin??????????