PDA

View Full Version : Insurance Serial Number Paranoia



BruceB
06-29-2006, 05:35 PM
Long story short, I can't find coverage with local insurance providers and agents that does NOT require itemized serial numbers for all the various firearms which keep me company.

Is this paranoia? Am I over-reacting due to decades of living under the Canadian government thumb? How would a list of guns in my insurance policy find its way to government and/or crooks, etc.?

This is serious money we're talking about, at least it is to me. About sixty decent-quality firearms add up to a good chunk that I can't really afford to lose. At least, they'll accept my valuation and not require a formal evaluation.

What do y'all think, and how have you addressed this question concerning your own guns?

felix
06-29-2006, 05:44 PM
A good insurance company will allow the agent keep a copy of each gun, with serial number and PHOTO. Also, have a photo showing all the guns in one shot. In your case, that might require a wide angle? ... felix

David R
06-29-2006, 05:52 PM
They want the serial # for recovery purposes. Can't hate em for that.

They have the VIN for your car.

David

NVcurmudgeon
06-29-2006, 06:29 PM
If insurance companies had a list of our firearms, and were tipping off law enforcement, a list with or without numbers might provoke a jack-booted thug raid. Considering the recent bumbling on our car insurance, which caused us to get mad and change companies, I'm not sure that insurance companies are competent enough or interested enough for such a project. I have utter confidence in the cumbersomeness of the bureaucracy to be found in any large American business enterprise. I can't get most of them to answer a simple E-mail!

swheeler
06-29-2006, 07:21 PM
Be paranoid-be very paranoid- Big Brother Is Watching YOU!

Dale53
06-30-2006, 01:26 AM
I am a retired Insurance Claims Representative. Shop for your Home Owners Insurance as well as a Scheduled Policy for your firearms. I have my firearms insured as well as my expensive photography equipment and NO serial numbers are involved. Different companies have different policies.

Now, that said, photograph every one of your guns in such a way that the serial number is evident. Make copies of the photos and keep them separate from your firearms. Keep a book on your firearms. Then if you have a loss, the adjuster will give you a minimum of guff. It is a form of PROOF that you indeed DID have those guns. An inexpensive digital camera will do a good job for you.

Important, as a paid, published photographer of guns, I have learned that LIGHT is everything if you want to read serial numbers and see engraving (which affects value). Use open shade and have an assistant to rotate the gun while looking at it from the exact camera position. As the gun is rotated, the number will jump out at you. THAT is the angle you shoot. Put the camera on a STURDY tripod and use the self timer to get REALLY sharp prints. After you get set up, you can do your guns in half a day (all of them). Or conversely, do a few at a time.

When you are taking photos, think a bit. Write a "script" as to what you want to show. Showing all of the guns in your open safe is a good bet - they don't have to show up, just show that you have many. Then do them individually, and so several views with all of the accessories.

I was a major case claims rep for thirty years. I have handled MANY very large thefts and burglaries. When people have correct documentation, it makes it easy for BOTH of you. Good pictures not only show that you owned the piece but what condition it is in. Proper documentation will help you to get the correct valuation when a loss occurs.

The time to do this is BEFORE the loss occurs.

Just a word to the wise...
Dale53

Dale53
06-30-2006, 01:34 AM
Another tip for photographing guns for records: serial numbers do not always show up well. So, help them. Go to your Art Supply Store (Hobby Lobby or Michaels, for instance) and buy a tube of acrylic artist paint in white and one in "Carbon Black". Get the least expensive, smallest tube there. The white is for blued guns and the carbon black is for stainless or plated guns (duh-h-h[smilie=1:). Wipe the gun off really well (finger prints show up like mad) and then get the smallest amount of paint on your finger tip and gently rub it over the serial number. After you do a few it will become really easy. If you do it just right, the paint will only be IN the numbers. Then photograph it. The numbers will jump out of the picture! It is a bit more tricky, but you can also do this to engraving when dealing with bright finished guns that are engraved. This does NOT show up on film or digital at all well. After some esperience wiping the excess paint off, the engraving will be readily seen.

After the photographing is finished, mineral spirits on a rag will wipe the paint away. Then use your favorite preservative IMMEDIATELY to protect the piece as the mineral spirits will remove all of the oil and rusting can start on blued guns almost while you watch.

Dale53

keeper89
06-30-2006, 03:17 AM
Thanks Dale. "If you bring an expert with you, it is wise to listen to his advice." Just another reason I love this forum.......:-D

Tom Myers
06-30-2006, 09:58 AM
Dale53

I need the oinion of a pro.

Would the system that I developed for my firearm records be completely adequate for insurance purposes?

It seemed to work well for my firearm records requirements so I just recently offered it for distribution on my website.

http://www.uslink.net/~tom1/printarms.htm

Tom Myers
Precision Ballistics and Records (http://www.tmtpages.com)

Dale53
06-30-2006, 05:06 PM
I would have been VERY impressed with these kinds of records. One thing that should be noted, is, "Why is the gun worth more than you paid for it?" Outsiders won't intuitively know this. You have lots of room in your program to explain this. Keep in mind however, that claims people are human beings. We had our share of jerks in the profession but the people I worked with were, for the most part, dedicated people that were just trying to do their job. Good record keeping helps EVERYONE involved to reach a reasonable settlement postition in the smallest time frame.

Another related subject. I just lost my sister and mother. My mother was 94 and her passing was not unexpected. However, my sister's sudden demise was not at all anticipated. However, she was given three months to live. She lived three months to the day. She did her best to help us meet her wishes. However, records made BEFORE a crisis are always much more comprehensive. My brother and I were left to settle her estate. It took a LOT of work and would have been made MUCH easier with record keeping like this. This can befall any of us and we need to make it as easy as possible for our survivors.

Firearms are specialized items. Most of our families have little idea what they are worth. This will help our survivors to avoid being ripped off by parasites who immediately try to hit people at their lowest point (while still in the throes of grief).

FWIW
Dale53

Bret4207
06-30-2006, 08:41 PM
Another thing to remember is the books. I have several thousand dollars worth of collectable firearms books and magazines. I was told flat out by my agent that it would be very hard to have the company approve their value without an appraisal and annual re-appraisal. Same with the tools, the reloading gear, the horse and farm stuff.... it goes on. Insurance is one of theose things I'd rather do without, but I'm just too chicken!

9.3X62AL
06-30-2006, 08:45 PM
Dale 53--

GREAT info--many thanks!

Dale53
07-03-2006, 01:19 AM
Deputy Al;
My pleasure!

Dale53

BruceB
07-03-2006, 01:51 AM
I'm behind in my manners, here.

Thanks to all for responding. I definitely have some things to do before I'm satisfied.

Last year, I took individual photos of all the guns on hand at that time, posed on the front page of the Reno newspaper-of-the-day. This is a partial support of "what I owned when", but doesn't address the actual numbers of each gun. It'll take some experimenting with our digital camera to get sharp photos of the serial numbers and markings, but I think it's possible.

Dale's excellent instructions will be very valuable, and I also must confess to being comforted in large degree by Curmudgeon's lack of faith in bureaucracy.

I spent considerable time today on an inventory of loading gear etc., coming up with a scary figure that does NOT include "consumables"....do I really want to declare a "substantial amount" of smokeless and black gunpowder to an insurance company??? Didn't even think about the books....

Mucho appreciation!

NVcurmudgeon
07-03-2006, 02:33 AM
Bruce, I'd be discreet about "consumables." Every time I've seen fire codes and "consumables" mentioned together, it made me nervous, and I think I'm relatively penny ante.

Linstrum
07-05-2006, 04:22 AM
It is just my 2¢ opinion about insurance and primer and propellant inventory, but I would NEVER let an insurance company know about any powder and primers that I have at my house. After a fire they could be used as a reason to deny a claim since the insurance adjusters could argue that they initiated the problem or accelerated it in the off chance the fire started in your reloading room near your propellant inventory. In just having dealt with a major insurance company over the destruction of all of my farm outbuildings and barn in a massive brush fire, I learned that they are constantly looking for anything to minimize their pay out. Anyone who has powder and primers needs to look at their policy fine print to see if keeping reloading supplies will cancel the policy.

I don’t have any bulk powder or primers indoors unless I am reloading, and when I’m done I take it back out. I keep all of my powder and primers in watertight, squirrel and gopher-proof underground storage wells that I dug in the backyard. My powder magazine wells are seven feet deep with the powder kept a minimum of three feet below ground level to keep the temperature below 65°F. The hatches are disguised to prevent discovery of the wells and their contents, and made lightweight to prevent confinement that would cause a massive earth-heaving explosion in case the propellant ever ignites for who knows what reason. If a magazine ever goes, say from a direct lightning hit (which is the only external thing that could set it off), all that will happen is that the fire and gas will escape harmlessly straight up into the air. That way all I will have to deal with is the damage from the lightning instead of also having to fill in a seven-foot deep crater then deal with the damage from flying rocks and soil.