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Harpman
06-27-2006, 02:26 PM
Any one using the Lee 459, 500 grain ?.any good results? compared with the lyman postell ? Also wondering why Lee comes up with a sizer 457 and not 459.must be a good reason behind his decision..

Bigjohn
06-27-2006, 07:30 PM
Harpman; If you are refering to the projectile as shown in my avatar? Then yes I have experience with it.

This is limited experience over a short range (due to range limitations). I have loaded it over 70grs (vol.) GOEX 2fg powder, ignited by Federal 215 Large Rifle Magnum Primers in Remington cases. These loads were shot through a Pedersoli 1874 Sharps 32" Barrel. Taking into account all influences on the shooting I was able to group them into 2" at 90 metres (Just short of 100 yds).

I was also experiencing some problems with casting these projectiles which were not the fault of the mold and which I have since corrected but this new batch is as yet unfired.

In my rifle and compared to the Lyman 457658 Schmitter Spire Point they are about equal for accuracy but need to be seated deeper into the case. Mine are cast from wheel weights at this time. I can post a comparison photo for you but I will need to sign off and upload the photo. I will post it under a new entry.

John.

Harpman
06-27-2006, 08:36 PM
Thanks.thats about exactly same setup I have...BUt I have some pure lead and WW's on hand to mix up ....I'll let you know what I can get. My stuff should all be here friday, rifle, mold, components.etc..

Bigjohn
06-27-2006, 09:23 PM
Harpman;

Here are the pic's freshly taken today (had to take another for posting aswell).

1739

I forgot to mention that I use the Montana Arms BP Lube and LUBE 103. These are about what is available downunder. Eventually, I will try some softer material for all BP projectiles. I am working with a known standard, this allows me to take a step (one only) away at a time (one small change only), then step back if that change does not work out. Through this sort of a process I can work on improving my loads.

Others on this board may be able to answer better than I can but I believe LEE will make larger diam. sizers to order BUT don't make them as a standard production run. If enough ask maybe they will include them as standard or we could run a group buy.

Hope it works out.

John.

windwalker
06-28-2006, 06:31 AM
john i am from west oz, if you wont to try a good bp bullet lube get a couple of stick of
rooster red bp 7 from track of the wolf. they are $2.95 a stick us, i get 3 or 4 at a time ,it is the best lube i have used i also shoot the lee 500r cast bullet but find in my buffalo classic they shoot beter sized to .457. i have even added caschecks for smokles loads with the same accuracy.this is the web page for the lube at track of the wolf http://www.trackofthewolf.com/categories/partList.aspx?catID=18&subID=129&styleID=439
bernie:-Dps lee will make you a custom sizer i had them make me one at.529 .this is a pic of my bullet std and with gascheck fitted
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y236/windwalker_au/100_4406.jpg

Black Prince
06-30-2006, 06:53 PM
I'm shooting a '74 Sharps replica by Taylor ( Armi Sports) in 45-70 with a 32 inch barrel. I've used about every available cast bullet either made by commercial casters, or from moulds available from suppliers like Mid South, Mid-Way and Cabela's, ect. Most of my moulds are Lymans, but I also have a couple of RCBS. Because the Lee is so cheap, I bought one in the 500 grain weight.

I Leematized the mould before even casting the first bullet in it. Then I cast up a batch of 200 (20 to one) and selected those within + or - one grain from the average (mean) weight of the batch as determined by weighing 50 selected at random and determining the mean. I then sized the select bullets .459, lubed with Emeritt's using lanolin in lieu of canola oil, and loaded them over 7.5 grains of H-4227 and 62 grains of Goex FF-g droped through a 30 inch drop tube. I topped that with a .30 wad and compressed the powder column using a compression die until I could seat the Lee bullet at the crimping groove but I didn't crimp it. I fired all of that with a Federal 215 magnum primer in Winchester brass.

I got 1 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards, a nice lube star at the end of the barrel, and I shot 40 rounds without cleaning the barrel and did not use a blow tube. I think if I tinker with that basic load, I can get those big Lee bullets to all go into an inch at 100. The surprise to me was although the bullets only went into an 11/2 at 100, they went in two inches at 200 and into 3 1/2 at 300. Maybe it was me; maybe it was wind; maybe it was zigs and zags coming together or going apart, but for a first load with a new bullet, I am satisfied and give the Lee bullet a thumbs UP! It shot as good, but not better than the best bullet I've tried in that rifle. It is a keeper and I hope you boys find that it shoots good for you as well.

twotrees
07-02-2006, 10:37 AM
See the post about to compress or not to compress,

Hi BP. Yep BP and I shoot together sometime's. Even shoot boolits whan we ain't shootin the breeze.

BP, Need to talk with ya call my cell dang it !!!

TwoTrees

Black Prince
07-05-2006, 09:15 PM
Uhhhhhh . . . okay.

SharpsShooter
07-07-2006, 07:57 AM
The surprise to me was although the bullets only went into an 11/2 at 100, they went in two inches at 200 and into 3 1/2 at 300. Maybe it was me; maybe it was wind; maybe it was zigs and zags coming together or going apart, but for a first load with a new bullet, I am satisfied and give the Lee bullet a thumbs UP! It shot as good, but not better than the best bullet I've tried in that rifle. It is a keeper and I hope you boys find that it shoots good for you as well.


Prince

I have had several veteran BPCR shooters with literally years of trigger time tell me to forget the 100yd line stuff. They say that the boolit is better stabilized at 200 than 100 and the groups fired at that distance will represent the true potential of a given load and rifle combination. Now, I'm not a ballistic expert by any means and I'm sure one of our more "learned" coulod explain it, but what you experienced seems to support the "range line gossip theory".

SS

:coffee:

Black Prince
07-07-2006, 09:18 AM
You are correct sir. That is especially true with big, long bullets like 500 grain and heavier 45 calibers. It takes time for the centrifical forces to stabilize the bullet and by the time that is accomplished, the bullet is usually 200 yards or more down range.

Unfortunately, I came from a background of loading smokeless cartridges. I was nfluenced by all of the usual suspect gun writers, and they always give data in terms of minute of angle at 100 yards. That has more or less become the standard. It probably shouldn't be; but it is for them.

But as you pointed out, that isn't the case for those of us who shoot "real" rifles, using the "Holy Black" instead of that white powder that is a dying fad. Our standard of measurement more likely ought to be 200 or even 300 yards rather than the 100 used by smokeless powder gun writers shooting small and medium bores.

KCSO
07-07-2006, 10:57 AM
I was some amazed when I first shot 300 yards and got groups that were impossible, IE smaller than a direct progression from the 100 yard results. That is why I don't consider 50 or 100 yard grops as any more than rough indicators. Unfortunatly there are very few places to shoot 200 to 500 yards any more. Right now I can shoot daily on a 100 yard range and if I want to go to 300 yards I need to drive over 50 miles, and I live in farm country!

felix
07-07-2006, 11:16 AM
Getting the twist adjusted to the boolit design is a logarithmically affair with distance and medium traveled. Therefore, the maximum range, and in what kind of weather, will determine what is necessary for the sport on hand, be it target, varmit, or game animal. A 24 mile target is a whale of a lot different than a 100 yard target, and comparisions cannot be made except for the fun of it. Best to concentrate on what the GUN is being used for 90 percent of the time and nothing else. For example, a 500 yard gun in MY stable would find zero use. ... felix

45 2.1
07-07-2006, 11:26 AM
I was some amazed when I first shot 300 yards and got groups that were impossible, IE smaller than a direct progression from the 100 yard results. That is why I don't consider 50 or 100 yard grops as any more than rough indicators. Unfortunatly there are very few places to shoot 200 to 500 yards any more. Right now I can shoot daily on a 100 yard range and if I want to go to 300 yards I need to drive over 50 miles, and I live in farm country!

Cone of fire doesn't seem to apply to longer / heavy for caliber boolits. I've gotten the same results in the 45 caliber rifles and sometimes with really heavy 30 caliber ones. I built my range when I moved on the family farm, a covered bench on the back of the barn with butts, boards and gongs at; 100 yds, 257 yds and 380 yds. To get out farther, I have to go to an aquaintances pasture to get to 600+ yds.

Black Prince
07-07-2006, 03:28 PM
Please define what you mean when you use the term "cone of fire." Ballistics is a science based on physics with a little chemistry thrown in. Principles that apply to physics are universal as I understand them, so I am somewhat confused when you say:Cone of fire doesn't seem to apply to longer / heavy for caliber boolits.

So something I don't get has to do with this "cone of fire" business.

45 2.1
07-07-2006, 03:36 PM
Think of a long pointy hat, like a dunces cap. The point is the muzzle of your firearm. As you farther out the cone gets larger and is proportional with the distance out from the point. In regular terms: 2" at 100 yds, 4" at 200 yds, 6" at 300 yds. That is a cone of fire and a 2 MOA group. You expect the group to be twice as big twice as far out.
Now, when the man stated "The surprise to me was although the bullets only went into an 11/2 at 100, they went in two inches at 200 and into 3 1/2 at 300", that didn't hold true, did it. The heavier, longer boolit was not stable yet and did not follow a true cone of fire scenario.

Boz330
07-07-2006, 04:02 PM
Hello, I'm new here. But back on the original subject of the Lee 520, I have a buddy that has had very good luck shooting that bullet out to 600 yards. He is shooting a Pedersoli 74 Sharps. Kicks my butt quite regularly with it in BPCRS.
As far as why 100 yd groups are not repesentitive of what goes on down range, it may have to do with the fact that the bullet goes subsonic about that distance. Look at the problems encountered when airplanes started breaking the speed of sound. I personally don't work BP loads up at less than 300yd, but then I'm lucky as I have a range set up on my farm to do that. The only reason for that is when I first got into this addiction I read Venturino's book and he mentions that anything less than 200yd is useless when working up a load.
Having said that what you do with the rifle most of the time should dictate where you develope your loads as one of the other gentlemen pointed out. But that is part of the fun of rolling your own.

Bob

Harpman
07-07-2006, 06:50 PM
I am a bit confused, scuse me....So...If I can get my group about a inch and a half at 100 yards, thats not good ? or worth testing a load for ?...I think Pedersoli said it groups about that ...If I can not get a inch and a half at 100, it will get a better group at 200 ?.....the bullet somehow comes back into a tighter group ?...the groups will be better at 300 than 100 ?. I thought I could get a load good for 100, cuz I have 100 yards here at the house...then after I acheive that, drive to the range for longer shots.....I didnt see a point in driving to a range and shoot 300 when it wont even group at 100 ?........Am I wrong ?.and this doesnt make sense ?

Black Prince
07-07-2006, 09:07 PM
Harpman

I had a long and detailed explaination of this but the dam forum wouldn't let me post it because it said I was not logged in AFTER it told me I had logged in successfully.

Bottom line is that you are fine in what you are doing. You CAN determine the accuracy potential of loads by shooting at 100 yards. The differences we are talking about in improvement here have to do with porportional improvement. We tend to think bullets go in linear mathmatical progressions. Some do and some don't. But when we get a little improvement in bullet stability at 200 yards that the bullet had not achieved at 100 yards because the gyroscopic effect had not been working on the bullet long enough to stabilize the yawing and/or porposing, we are only going to get a small amount, and it will be proportional to how far down range the bullet has traveled. Once the bullet becomes stabilized, it should then continue down range in a linear mathmatical progression until it looses enough spin to degrade the bullet's stability.

Harpman
07-07-2006, 10:10 PM
OK, thats kinda what I thought, I been reading on the net that its a waste of time at 100, But I thought it would be ok to get a basic load going, Am I right that about a inch and a half at 100 is good , then move out farther...or should I try to tighten that up more ?

SharpsShooter
07-08-2006, 10:48 AM
Harpman,

It is sorta my fault that we got on the 100yd group thing. I try to achieve the best posible groups at 100yds because my local range is only that distance. The long heavy boolits need a bit of time in flight to true up to perfect stabilization and reach their maximum potential. If you have the option of shooting at say 200 yards, try it by all means to see the cone of fire effect that 45 2.1 refers to in his post.

SS


OK, thats kinda what I thought, I been reading on the net that its a waste of time at 100, But I thought it would be ok to get a basic load going, Am I right that about a inch and a half at 100 is good , then move out farther...or should I try to tighten that up more ?