1000 yard shootout

[44mag1]

Has anyone ever compared shooting 1000 yards with a modern type cartridge like a 6.5-284 against an older 1000 yard cartridge like a 45-70. I would like to see how they might compare if they were both scoped and tuned to the max.

[Hip's Ax]

Well, I can't make a direct comparison as I can't see spending the money for a Stolle Panda, Bartlien barrel, Sitman stock 45-70 but I do shoot NRA LR and NRA LR black powder cartridge and I am a master in LR and am working on master (if I don't mess up my next match) in BPCTR and I can offer that to be a master in LR you have to shoot 94% and to be a master in BPCTR you need to shoot 75%.

Probably not what you were looking for.

[dualsport]

Sounds like those numbers tell the story

[Hip's Ax]

OK, not sure whats up with the better BC for the 45-70 bullet with lower velocity (probably because its a flying baby block) but just look at the difference in BC between the only Sierra bullet they make in 45 and the 142 gr 6.5 Match King.

.458 dia. (45-70) 300 gr. HP/FN

.120 @ 2400 fps and above
.145 between 2400 and 1900 fps
.185 between 1900 and 1400 fps
.210 between 1400 and 1150 fps
.230 @ 1150 fps and below


.264 dia. (6.5mm) 142 gr. HPBT MatchKing

.595 @ 2850 fps and above
.580 between 2850 and 2400 fps
.575 between 2400 and 2050 fps
.550 @ 2050 and below

[Hip's Ax]

Sounds like those numbers tell the story

Well, not really. I'd be surprised if the question can be answered. The 45-70 rifle in the question, well, I doubt it exists. Not only that I don't think an appropriate bullet exists either.

My LR rifle is about as good as it gets right now and I'm shooting 6.5 Sierras at about 3000 FPS. The rifle is fired from a sling and my irons are Warner and Rightsight and my scope is a 25X Leupold

My CPA LR rifle is a 45-90 and I'm shooting a Hoch 550 cast boolit at a little over 1300 FPS with iron tang sights and cross sticks. I have Unertl blocks on the rifle but haven't tried a scope on it.

Apples and oranges......

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Agree, apples & oranges....a 45/70 w/500gr cast and BP @ 1,000yds with iron sights against a 6mm-284 scoped shooting jacketed/smokeless with a scope....No contest. I don't shoot long range with the 6mm/284 but have a couple of friends that do, and they are accurate.:holysheep:brokenima

I use .308 & 300mag for this endavor myself, used the 308 in Nam for 3 tours, so I can vouch for it . I have shot long range with the 45/70 also and it is fun.....but if your serious.....no contest:redneck:

[AZ-Stew]

Sounds like a question for Mike Venturino. He may know of someone who has mad the comparison. He's a BPCR shooter, and though the 6.5X.284 isn't his usual cup of tea, he may know someone through his competition contacts who has done the work.

Regards,

Stew

[44mag1]

Sounds like a question for Mike Venturino. He may know of someone who has mad the comparison. He's a BPCR shooter, and though the 6.5X.284 isn't his usual cup of tea, he may know someone through his competition contacts who has done the work.

Regards,

Stew

This is where I was going with this post, It would be a neat write up

[Doc Highwall]

If you ask about foot pounds of energy and momentum at 1000 yds the 550 grain boolit wins hands down.

[Wayne Smith]

OK, not sure whats up with the better BC for the 45-70 bullet with lower velocity (probably because its a flying baby block) but just look at the difference in BC between the only Sierra bullet they make in 45 and the 142 gr 6.5 Match King.

.458 dia. (45-70) 300 gr. HP/FN

.120 @ 2400 fps and above
.145 between 2400 and 1900 fps
.185 between 1900 and 1400 fps
.210 between 1400 and 1150 fps
.230 @ 1150 fps and below


.264 dia. (6.5mm) 142 gr. HPBT MatchKing

.595 @ 2850 fps and above
.580 between 2850 and 2400 fps
.575 between 2400 and 2050 fps
.550 @ 2050 and below

BC doesn't really matter as long as the range is known. Who cares which boolit gets there fastest? Shoots the flattest? It's the gun, the sights, and the shooter who will make the difference. If those are equal and conditions are calm there should be little difference except the size of the holes in the target.

[Hip's Ax]

BC doesn't really matter as long as the range is known. Who cares which boolit gets there fastest? Shoots the flattest? It's the gun, the sights, and the shooter who will make the difference. If those are equal and conditions are calm there should be little difference except the size of the holes in the target.

Well, I don't want to start a :takinWiz: but I will offer that in theory, you should be correct.

In reality, BC matters a great deal as conditions are rarely calm at a 1000 yard shoot, sometimes but not often. That and the bullet actually has to get to the target, less BC means you need more velocity to keep the bullet stable so it will reach the target.

Frankly I was shocked when my 45-90 shot so well at 800/900/1000 yards but with only 1300 FPS a seemingly small change in wind can put you totally off the paper. NRA LR BPCTR is the only game where you are allowed contact with your pit puller to see where you are hitting if off the paper because it happens so often.

When you're shoulder to shoulder shooting a match those with velocity and BC will win over those with less (all other things being equal). I should know, I got tired of getting whipped by the 6.5-284's with my 260 Remington when I was using the same bullets but had 300 FPS less velocity.

Last there is shooter stamina. If someone were to try and seriously shoot straight up LR in 45-70 with custom jacketed bullets and smokeless I would easily imagine the velocity would be relatively high and therefore felt recoil would be considerable. I used to shoot a 30-338 Win Mag in LR (I still have the rifle) but after 40 or 50 shots it wasn't fun anymore launching those 190's with 65 grains of 4350 behind it. I can only imagine the horror of shooting a serious 45-70.

In 2004 I wanted to modernize and I had the 260 built because I didn't want to deal with the short barrel life issues of the 6.5-284 (about 1000 rounds). Two years ago I decided to have a 6.5-284 built because the lower velocity of the 260 was costing me points. Now some are going to 6 and 7mm because of the advent of the high BC match bullets.

So, in recap, in theory if all the bullets were perfect (doesn't happen) and all the shots had identical muzzle velocity (doesn't happen) all the bullets of any caliber should all shoot a 0.000" group if shot by perfect shooters (doesn't happen) in zero conditions (doesn't happen).

[Doc Highwall]

My opinion is that with any long range shooting you have to know how to read the wind, and because it is part art and part science the shooter should try to shoot the bullet with the highest ballistic coefficient to minimize errors in wind calling and changing conditions. In long range black powder 45 caliber dominates with a 550+- grain bullets and shooters are going to paper patch bullets and can shoot a flatter trajectory with the same powder charge that equates to less wind drift because of a higher ballistic coefficient.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

WELL, I recon the 6.5x284 would be a tough nut to beat, it rules the roost at Camp Perry in the 1000 yard dept.

However, the old guns are not total duds at those ranges, my own personal best at 800 yards right now is a 96-4X shot at Raton NM in the National Championships. With a 45-110 Sharps and 520 gr Paper Patch Bullets. Same load at 2008 Raton's Pedersoli 5@200 match ran a 1.336 Inch Group at 200 yards and was the Winner Overall for Group size of any class that year.

Last years Winter Nationals in Phoenix on the last day, I bested all comers at 800 yards in some tough winds including the 4 day overall winner Doc Keith Lay, my score was 93-4X again with a 45-110 Shiloh Sharps and My Paper Patch Bullets. My best score yet at 1000 yards is in the 89 to 91 range not quite master in Highpower.

On my own range I have run 18 consective bulls (36 inch Circle) at 1000 yards on a very calm Day.

Ranch 13 posts here on the forum, spotted me while I made 8 consective shots at Alliance Neb Last Sept, I put those 8 shots into a 10 inch Circle at 1000 yards with my bull Barrel 25 lb Shiloh Sharps in 45-110.


naw they are not very accuracte.
KW
2006 NRA Creedmoor Scope National Champion
2009 NRA Phoenix Winter Nationals Creedmoor Scope Champion

[Wayne Smith]

Thank you Hip's Ax and Kenny. I read the original post as a theoretical question. [edit] I agree with you completely when it comes to reality. It's just that so many don't believe what Kenny and others can do with the old ones.

[dualsport]

I was just referring to the Master qualification percentages, 94 vs. 75%.

[Beekeeper]

Don't count on an answer from Mike venturino, Stew.
I asked him a question almost 3 months ago and still no answer.
I guess you have to be a big time rag editor to get an answer.


Jim

[GabbyM]

Place your paper targets behind a couple rail road ties then see which cartridge scores better on paper at 1,000 yards. That wouldn't be cheating would it?

[Gunlaker]

OK, not sure whats up with the better BC for the 45-70 bullet with lower velocity (probably because its a flying baby block) but just look at the difference in BC between the only Sierra bullet they make in 45 and the 142 gr 6.5 Match King.

.458 dia. (45-70) 300 gr. HP/FN

.120 @ 2400 fps and above
.145 between 2400 and 1900 fps
.185 between 1900 and 1400 fps
.210 between 1400 and 1150 fps
.230 @ 1150 fps and below


.264 dia. (6.5mm) 142 gr. HPBT MatchKing

.595 @ 2850 fps and above
.580 between 2850 and 2400 fps
.575 between 2400 and 2050 fps
.550 @ 2050 and below

I have no illusions of the .45-70 beating the 6.5-284 (I'm mostly a black powder cartridge shooter though :D).

No one shooting long range .45-70 uses jacketed bullets. Maybe if someone would try that baby caliber with cast bullets, it'd be a fair comparison. :kidding:

From what I've learned in BPCR so far, a good part of the battle is keeping those soft cast bullets exiting the muzzle in perfect condition.

Chris.

[dualsport]

Mr. V was all over this forum for a while, got sick and kinda dropped off. I imagine he is very busy making up for lost time due to illness. If he doesn't write he doesn't get paid.

[leadman]

Mike posted after he got out of the hospital, hope he did not have a relapse or something.

[44mag1]

I suppose one could say this is apples and oranges, but I would still like to see a real test done by expert shooters, If the big bore was scoped and the weather was fair Id be willing to bet the shootout would be closer then might be thought.

[Mike Venturino]

Dualsport is right. No work - no pay. Been catching up on lost time. In fact I reloaded and fired over 1000 rounds of 30-06, 8mm Mauser, 7.7 Jap., 7.62X54R, .303 Brit., and 6.5 Jap. in the last two weeks. That kept me busy shooting in the daylight and reloading after dark.

No relapse, thank heavens for that!
Mike

[rockrat]

Good to hear Mike. Look forward to future articles from you.

[1Shirt]

Glad you are back on line Mike!
1Shirt!:coffee:

[montana_charlie]

I am surprised to see this discussion still in progress.

I would like to see how they might compare if they were both scoped and tuned to the max.
I am curious about which performance factors you want to compare.
-Group size?
-Damage to the target?
-Rate of fire?
-Something else?

One could compare the 'effectiveness' of a 75mm recoilless rifle with that of an 80mm mortar, with both shooting at an abandoned house a thousand yards away.
The rifle will put the round through the front door, and the mortar will enter through the roof. But both will shatter the chandelier in the living room.

So...what does it prove?

I think the most interesting thing to compare in the proposed 'shootout' would be how impressed each shooter is...with the other guy's rifle.

CM

[John Boy]

Has anyone ever compared shooting 1000 yards with a modern type cartridge like a 6.5-284 against an older 1000 yard cartridge like a 45-70.
I only shoot BPCR 45-70 and 90's with iron sights but ...
At Ridgway Rifle Club in PA, went up to see how my group was on Homer, the 1000yd buffalo with a club member who was spotting for me and shoots nothing but a scoped 6.5x284. On the ground, next to Homer was an egg with a hole square in the middle of it. I said to Mel, Who was the Eagle Eye that did this? Answer - Me!

I've watched Mel hit with ease at 1000yds - 4" circle swingers, 6" steel plate, bowling pins, etc