Got an action gathering dust - - 400 Whelen?

[Randy in Arizona]

I have an action I want to make into something .

DHT Springfield 03 Action, already D&T for receiver sight so no longer a collectors item.

Been thinking about 400 Whelen / 411 Hawk - Anyone had any dealings with Z-hat Custom?

Ought to be a good cast boolit rifle, plinker to elk.

[PatMarlin]

Go 358 Winchester and never look back.. :mrgreen:

The holy grail caliber of cast boolits.

Here's an article Paco Kelly wrote that Ben sent to me today:

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/358_wcf.htm


:Fire:.....................Pat


...

[Char-Gar]

Randy... I vote for the .375 Whelen. Long neck to hold bullets..unlike the .358. Good selection of off the shelf bullet molds and all the powder capacity needed to get all the round has to give with cast bullets. You also have more case shoulder to help with headspace.

[arkypete]

Randy
I vote for the 375 Whelen, also.
I shoot nothing but cast bullets in it. Saeco and RCBS make wonderfully accurate bullets for it. Lyman and NEI make some nice heavy weights, 270 and 300 grain, very accurate, but kick like a mule.
Jim

[PatMarlin]

Don't listen to those guys... Why Chargar's prolly only been a shooter for 6 months. Cast too.. :mrgreen:

[onceabull]

Randy: I'm owning a 375 Hawk-Scovill built on a pre-64 M70 action..Fred Z. does fine work,but I bnelieve the cast boolit shooter would be better served by something other than the Hawk designs.. These have REALLY shot necks, and the heavy for caliber boolits are going to be impinging in the powder space,especially if overall length is short enough for magazine feeding..fwiw,get the 375 or 400 Whelen..l(improved,if desired) [smilie=1: Onceabull

[Four Fingers of Death]

I always fancied a custom 400 after seeing Elmer Keith's custom 03.' The 35 or 375 calibre would probably give a bit more shoulder and work better. MIck.

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/7C7D23E1D49E845/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/E763D260E176835/standard.jpg

Like these :-)? Left, in left photo a DEN42 152gr Ball 30-06. Loose bullets, Hornady 300gr BTSP, 270gr Hornady RNSP, 300gr Hornady RNSP. Same for the loaded ones except the 1st one is a Sierra 300gr BTSP .

Right photo: 30 cal Hornady 220gr RNSP, cast slug is a NEI 352gr, and also seated in the 1st cartridge. Second cast boolit (seated) is an NEI 328gr RN.

The rifle is a M98 Mauser action with a Montana Rifleman 24" heavy sporter bbl with a 12" twist. It has a 4X scope on it but I don't recall who made it. Heck, I don't think I've SEEN the rifle in 5 years!

I hope they will forgive me now, but I do not recall who it was who sent me the NEI cast slugs. Sundog, Beagle, Grumble? It was back in the Shooters.com days. With the jacketed bullets the rifle will shoot 1.5" 3 shot groups at 100 yards. The Lyman 264gr GC slug does well to about 1600 fps. The abrupt twist is not kind to cast. I never tried the Lee 250gr PB. I did shoot some of the Saeco 225gr tapered PBFN slugs and they didn't do much in the testing I did.

The 2 heavy NEI's will shoot into 3" at 100 yards. I was using surp WC852 (slow) and the 328gr slug was a tad over 2200 fps and the 352gr was moving at a bit over 2100 fps. At that point the cases were full and 'twern't na more room'. I didn't bother to go any further as I'd had about all the fun I could stand. Besides the rhino's and elephants had pretty well cleared out of the neighborhood by then.

.....................Buckshot

[Frank46]

Go for the 375-'06 lotsa bullet molds out there and should end up being a really nice rifle. Frank

[Wayne Smith]

I have no experience, but everything I've read says that .375 is about maximum for the -06 case. Major problems with the .400 are headspace because of inadequate shoulder. Any comments from those who've done it?

[NucEm]

I think that a nicely made gun in .400 Whelen would function ok if only the headspace is taken care off. Lots of problems with that but if one uses the original chamber numbers it functions ok:-D But...iam a fan of .375 caliber and one founds both more bullets and bullet molds for that number out there. And a .375 can kill everything in US, Canada and Europe and most of the animal left in other darker places:) Plenty of cases (30-06) plenty of bullets and easy to load with a lot of power, sounds like a good combination to me:drinks:

[Buckshot]

.............I don't recall where I read it, but there was information on the 400 Whelen explaining why it had gotten it's bad rep for headspace issues. They showed the original chamber and case measurements, along with photos of some early rifles done and anecdotal info from owners.

The problems arose when the original dimensions were changed. There were comparison cases, old vs the changed ones. It boiled down to the fact that the cases got more taper which thinned the shoulder. In some instances the correct chamber reamer was used but incorrect dies had been used which caused further problems.

Whoever wrote the article was definately a disciple of the 400 Whelen.

..............Buckshot

[Char-Gar]

Pat is right..I took up shooting three months ago and bought my first mold in a garage sale last week. As soon as I find some lead, I am going to cast my first bullet. Don't know what I will do with it, but at least I will have one to brag about.

However, being a natural born Blowhard and full of pretension and artifice, I will so go ahead with a couple of more comments on the subject.

1) As you already know the .375 Whelen and the 375/06 are the same round..Townsend Whelen had nothing to do with the development of the rounds. They were the brainchild of the gunsmith Seymour Griffin. Good marketing ploy naming them after the Col.

2) There have been several versions of improved 375 Whelen with the 375 Brown-Whelen and the .375 Hawk being the best known.

3) These improved versions do offer something to the condom bullet shooter who is trying to sqeeze every last fps out of the case.

4) However, for the cast bullet shooter, these improved versions have more down than up to them. The case necks are shorter than the regular version and the increased powder capacity can't be utilized for cast bullet shooting.

5) With cast bullets the standard .375 Whelen offers good bullet diameter and weight, long case necks, plus ideal case capacity for 100% loading density.

6) The 400 Whelen is a fine round, but it does have an itty bitty shoulder to hold headspace. As Buckshot pointed out, being a Wildcast round, chambers and dies vary and that is genesis of headspace problem with the round.

Some time back I owned a Griffin & Howe rifle in .400 Whelen and it was a fine rifle. I just didn't cotton to it, so it didn't make the cut of keepers.

All in all, I can't invision a better cast bullet hunting round the the 375 Whelen/375-06.

Like you I have a spare action that is driving me nuts. I have a left handed Ruger 77. The divots on the receiver rings have been TIG welded and the front ring machined round and the rear flat. Much like an old commercial square bridge Mauser. The action was then re-heat treated and Magnafluxed. The guy who had it before me, put lots of money into the action and then lost interest in the probject. I picked it up for $100.00....yes, I am left handed.

I would like a .375 Whelen...but I do have a new Ruger barrel in 30-06 that can be screwed in. Decisions..decisions..decisions!!!!

[45 2.1]

I would like a .375 Whelen...but I do have a new Ruger barrel in 30-06 that can be screwed in. Decisions..decisions..decisions!!!!

Thats not a decision, thats procastination. Get the 375 built.

[Bucks Owin]

I'll "cast" (little pun there!) my vote for the .375 Whelen too. The .400 would be cool too but there ain't much shoulder there to headspace on. If you do decide on the .400, I'd be mighty choosey about who does the work....

Either one should be a fine elk stomper...

My 2 centavos,

Dennis

Actually, the .35 Whelen might be my choice...A great old cartridge and molds galore!

[Denver]

Since the short, fat, beltless magnums have appeared, I've thought that one of them would be a great platform for a 375 or 400 wildcat. Certainly oughta have plenty of shoulder left on the fatter case. I'd call it the "Denver Express".

[Char-Gar]

If one wanted to mess with the belted magnum case, take a look at the 400 Holland and Holland. Short, fat, with a properly long neck. Should be a stomper of a cast bullet round.

[Bass Ackward]

Any caliber in there will work.

The limitation for medium to larger bores "for me" comes down to trajectory and expansion. Even where special sights are made to compensate, the cost is usually .... substancial. So .... you have to be able to drive a common bullet weight for caliber with a practical sized meplat at a high enough velocity to get and maintain trajectory and obtain some expansion. And that .... means .... recoil.

A man has to know his limitations. If you can't load up a mid / heavy weight for caliber cast bullet at high enough pressures to get good ignition and expand your brass to maintain headspace, then you will run into .... issues. And if you are going to load it down, then you might as well go on up in bore diameter so that you can run a wider meplat and use a harder bullet effectively for hunting. So for cast in a medium bore, velocity is essential and recoil becomes the key.

For me that limit is 35 caliber. 250 / 290 grain at 2000 - 2400 fps.

[45 2.1]

If you can't load up a mid / heavy weight for caliber cast bullet at high enough pressures to get good ignition and expand your brass to maintain headspace, then you will run into .... issues.

The solution for expanding brass and getting perfect headspace(that was used when we were very young) was to lubricate the case and use a starting powder charge. The case would expand and slide back to give a fully fireformed case. This works fine and gives perfect results in my rifles. Just make sure you degrease all effected surfaces when your done.

[Bass Ackward]

If you can't load up a mid / heavy weight for caliber cast bullet at high enough pressures to get good ignition and expand your brass to maintain headspace, then you will run into .... issues.

The solution for expanding brass and getting perfect headspace(that was used when we were very young) was to lubricate the case and use a starting powder charge. The case would expand and slide back to give a fully fireformed case. This works fine and gives perfect results in my rifles. Just make sure you degrease all effected surfaces when your done.


Bob,

I should have re-read that. I meant to maintain headspace. Some people even report problems with the 35 Whelen. Since I don't experience problems, I have to assume that I am running pressure high enough to counter the shrinkage.

[frank505]

I have a high number springfield 03 with a Lyman 48 installed. I am leaning toward a 35 Whelen with a 19 or 20 inch barrel for something light and handy. I already have a 416 Taylor if I think I need it, after all the grizzly tracks I have seen this spring maybe the Taylor will do better. A 250 Hornady round nose at 2300 would be a pretty good load or a 290 cast at 2000 otta change a bears mind. I did think real hard about a 400 Whelen............................... it was Elmer's favorite for a while. The 375 Whelen is very interesting also, why did someone have to bring that one up???
35 Whelen brass and dies are very easy to get and I am tired of forming brass.