This is bad

[44fanatic]

Im hooked already. Started casting 2 weeks ago and have already upgraded from a 4lb pot to a 20lb bottom pour pot (ordered today). Not to mention a weekly hunt for WWs...got two sources for free.

After a few more rounds of casting, Im already considering casting bullets for friends in calibers that I dont have. Free lead and have time on my hands for the moment.

Only concern...wife finding out how much I spent...LOL

[leadman]

Pay for the new equipment by selling boolits to those friends.

[Adam10mm]

Don't forget the required FFL to do that.

[44fanatic]

FFL for makin boolits to be given away?????

[Wayne Smith]

If he's gonna pay for his equipment he has to sell them. FFL06 is only $30 for three years, just like the FFL02. $60 every three years ain't much.

[DLCTEX]

Are you going to advertise that you are selling boolits to your friends? Private sales between friends are of no concern to the BATF. If you get to selling thousands of boolits repeatedly and advertising, then you will need a license.

[RobS]

Not a big deal.............give them bullets for an exchange of them buying you the equipment you need or............want. Working around the system.:D

[44fanatic]

How does this go from enjoying casting boolits to needing an FFL...LOL.

[klcarroll]

When I first applied for an FFL some 30 years ago, an Old Dealer that I knew personally gave me some advice that served me well for the ten years that I had that license, ...and it is still probably valid now:

"Working under an FFL, there will be all kinds of questions about what is "right" and what is "wrong": ......The only thing that is ABSOLUTELY certain is that YOU don't want to be the "Test Case" that finds out which is which!"

Kent

[Storydude]

When I first applied for an FFL some 30 years ago, an Old Dealer that I knew personally gave me some advice that served me well for the ten years that I had that license, ...and it is still probably valid now:

"Working under an FFL, there will be all kinds of questions about what is "right" and what is "wrong": ......The only thing that is ABSOLUTELY certain is that YOU don't want to be the "Test Case" that finds out which is which!"

Kent

Yep. The hammers and nails argument.

[Adam10mm]

Are you going to advertise that you are selling boolits to your friends? Private sales between friends are of no concern to the BATF. If you get to selling thousands of boolits repeatedly and advertising, then you will need a license.
You are wrong. It has nothing to do with volume nor advertising nor friends.

Are you manufacturing bullets and being compensated for time and or materials? If yes, you need an FFL. In your case, yes you would.

[Adam10mm]

How does this go from enjoying casting boolits to needing an FFL...LOL.
It's called obeying the law. Whether we agree or disagree if the law is just, it is the law nonetheless and should be obeyed or changed. Until it is changed, obey it.

[44fanatic]

freakshow,
Now im in the educate me mode...

If I were to cast boolits and give them to a friend to reload for himself. I would be required to have a FFL license?

And the second question to that, friend provides the components and I cast boolits, and reload them for him, once again I would need a FFL license?

and the third scenario. I have a few boxes of 9mm ammo that I have loaded and give them to my son for his shooting enjoyment. Would there be a FFL requirement?

By asking these questions, I hope to educate myself and many others.

[leadeye]

When I first applied for an FFL some 30 years ago, an Old Dealer that I knew personally gave me some advice that served me well for the ten years that I had that license, ...and it is still probably valid now:

"Working under an FFL, there will be all kinds of questions about what is "right" and what is "wrong": ......The only thing that is ABSOLUTELY certain is that YOU don't want to be the "Test Case" that finds out which is which!"

Kent


Had an FFL 30 years ago and that is very good advice.:D

[KYCaster]

freakshow,
Now im in the educate me mode...

If I were to cast boolits and give them to a friend to reload for himself. I would be required to have a FFL license?

And the second question to that, friend provides the components and I cast boolits, and reload them for him, once again I would need a FFL license?

and the third scenario. I have a few boxes of 9mm ammo that I have loaded and give them to my son for his shooting enjoyment. Would there be a FFL requirement?

By asking these questions, I hope to educate myself and many others.




I'm not freakshow, but I'll answer anyway.

Compensation is what the govt is interested in. It all comes down to tax and control. If you're not being compensated then no license is required. In the three scenarios you describe, no license is needed.

In the second case though, if your friend provides more components than required for the ammo you load for him and you use it for another purpose then you are being compensated and Uncle Sugar wants his part.

Doesn't matter if you recieve cash, components, fresh eggs or any other barter, if you recieve anything of value in exchange for boolits or ammo then the 06 FFL is required.

For cast boolits you're only required to satisfy the license and ITAR (International Trade in Arms Regulations) issues. If you're manufacturing ammo then you're also responsible for Federal Excise Tax.

Another thing that many people don't seem to grasp is the fact that it's kind of hard to deny a profit motive after you've advertised your intent on the internet for the whole world to see.

When Freakshow was a nooby here (yeah, I remember that far back) he had the same questions and got the same answers. It appears that he did his homework and complies with all the ATF and State Department (ITAR) regulations. Everything I've seen him post on the subject has been spot on for accuracy.

To answer the question, "How does this go from enjoying casting boolits to needing an FFL...LOL." Well, in your case it's probably over reacting since you never mentioned selling anything, but it's not uncommon for noobies to state their intention to offset the cost of their new hobby by providing boolits and/or ammo for friends.

Those people whose livelyhood depends on the very slim profit margin available in the cast boolit and custom ammo business are often irritated by such statements. Like any other business, competition is a fact of life, but those who ignore the law substantially reduce the cost of doing business and make it more difficult for those who do it right.

I hope this duscussion doesn't turn you away from this site. You'll find that thread drift is a fact of life here...most of us don't get too upset when things start going in a different direction and we often find some very useful information in the most unlikely threads. So don't judge us too harshly from your first experience here.

Oh, BTW, welcome to Cast Boolits. I hope you enjoy your stay here.

Jerry

[44fanatic]

KYCaster, thanks for the input. I do believe that allot of people inferred that I would be selling and not giving. Those three scenarios are the only things I could see myself doing when it comes to casting or reloading. Have read to many posts on here from the old timers about casting boolits for nothing more than the enjoyment of it and giving their end products away. About the worst I do for illegal stuff is driving 10mph over the speedlimit.

This will not turn me away from the forum. Camraderie and friendships can be developed from common interests. As I stated in in questions, my intent was to educate others and myself. Plenty of noobs, including myself, and plenty of experienced casters that can gain knowledge.

BTW, enjoyed my time up there in your part of the country. Was stationed at Knox for 3 years and lived in Etown...but it was a little to close to my inlaws...Lousville. Good buddy of mine lived in Rineyville but later moved to CA for a better job.

[P.K.]

KYCaster, thanks for the input. I do believe that allot of people inferred that I would be selling and not giving. Those three scenarios are the only things I could see myself doing when it comes to casting or reloading. .

Easy High Speed, whenever you "spread the wealth" weather for 'gain' or 'gift' where ammo is concerned it's always a good idea to CTA. Get the FFL to CTA and you are good to go. I had a similar conversation with a sage gentleman about reloading some ammo for a friend. If I were pulling the ram, smelting the round, or striking the primer for anyother, I need a FFL. For myself, no worries.

Thanks for your service from another brother.


Homer Time......Doghhhh!!! However, if you wanted to let you friends use your equipment.......(Under your supervision..... No FFL for that. It's the transfer thing.) well you know you get into other trouble...."How many more beers are you going to have with your friends tonight?" OR "Why do men always need to stand around a fire and drink beer?" LOL!

[Slow Elk 45/70]

44Fanatic, as you can see some things are better left unsaid in public fourms.....you never know who is reading....or why. IMHO

[44fanatic]

Im sure that ATF and several other agencies are chimed in here. After this conversation, no worries on my part. Not giving anything I make, nor accepting anything from anyone conerning ammo.

With my 21 year career with the Army, Ive gone through background checks every 5 years...never had a problem and not about to start now.

Im enjoying the hobby and was just attempting to share my pleasure w/ yall.

[Buckshot]

Im sure that ATF and several other agencies are chimed in here. After this conversation, no worries on my part. Not giving anything I make, nor accepting anything from anyone conerning ammo.

With my 21 year career with the Army, Ive gone through background checks every 5 years...never had a problem and not about to start now.

Im enjoying the hobby and was just attempting to share my pleasure w/ yall.

.............Amazing how the government can srew up simple pleasures, isn't it? However, lots of commercial casters will provide 'sample' boolits. In addition we also have our own Boolit Exchange here: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?f=49

..............Buckshot

[Lead Fred]

So I need a FFL to sell a bud some fishing sinkers?[smilie=b:

[Storydude]

So I need a FFL to sell a bud some fishing sinkers?[smilie=b:

No, but you will need proof of EPA compliance and DEC wastewater testing.:veryconfu

[Ed Barrett]

Just sell lead that happens to be in the shape of what some might call "boolits". If I sold range scrape, which is technically bullets, do I need a goverment OK for that?

[Ed Barrett]

If you are on this forum you are likely to be on a Govt. list already. Don't sweat it the elections are coming up, get the progressive, liberal, and other forms of idiots voted out and we can go back to a free country, and after the presidential election we can all breath free again.

[klcarroll]

Gee! …..I have seen this issue surface several times since I started coming here; …And I have to confess that I just don’t get it!

Every time someone talks about “giving” or “selling” a few boolits to a friend or family member, someone else rightfully points out that such an act constitutes “distribution”, and technically requires an FFL.

Then the howls of outrage start! …….Asking questions like; “Do I need an FFL to give a few rounds to my son at the range??”

Such questions are like the medieval Bishops arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin!! ……The issue is being carried to a ridiculous extreme!

The general laws concerning the un-licensed distribution of ammunition and components were written for good reasons! …..And living, as I do, only 20 miles from the Chicago City Limits, …I understand the reasons all too well!!

Fortunately for all of us, …..the law of the land still holds that laws that are on the books are supposed to apply to everyone, not just disfavored groups.

Can any of you honestly say that you would prefer it any other way???

As another poster pointed out: “It's called obeying the law. Whether we agree or disagree if the law is just, it is the law nonetheless and should be obeyed or changed. Until it is changed, obey it.”


Kent

[44fanatic]

So, I have come to the conclusion that nothing will be made but for my own enjoyment. If I take someone shooting with me, great fine and dandy.

These forums are a great way for people to gain knowledge. If something does not make complete sense to me, I am going to ask questions, not to test someones knowledge or motives but to learn. I am also one of these people who will ask a question so that others can learn.

We can all search the laws and regulations of this country but many times they are very lengthy and difficult for the common person to interpret. With this, everyday there are new reloaders and casters out there who's intent is to enjoy the hobby and share their materials with friends and family. In their ignorance of the law, they are now committing a crime.

How do we keep these people, which consists of a large portion of us out of trouble? We educate them.

[44fanatic]

This is bad...I have spent over an hour searching through google and the ATF web site and this is the only thing I can come up with:

Q: Is a person who reloads ammunition required to be licensed as a manufacturer?
Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit. No, if the person reloads only for personal use.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a) (i) and 923(a), 27 CFR 478.41]

The part that is very misleading to me is the "livelihood and profit" part. If I take this strictly at that, I am good to give ammo away. Now for the rest of the story (assumption on my part) is that there are other laws and regulations that I have not been able to dig up that prohibit the transfer of reloaded ammunition and its components w/o an license.

[Crash_Corrigan]

Suppose you are a sheep producer in Wyoming. Now you start to have major depradations of your flocks by wolves. Assuming that they are a protected specis (I have not a clue about that...but go with it for now..OK?) and you are out there one night with your 6.5.x 55 MM Sweede with a good set of night optics (Sure) and you see your flock being attacked by a pack of Wolves......

1-Are you gonna pick up the phone and complain to the gubermint agency that regulates the wolves? And then await help?

2-Or will you carefully eliminate the predators that are robbing your family of money and food and take them out?

If you chose #2:

a-are you gonna broadcast that to all your friends and strangers?

b- are you going to police your brass, dig a hole and dispose of the wolves and shut up about it?

B ....This is Western justice. Shoot, shovel and shut up.

Now regarding making ammo or boolits for friends. If the gubermint doesn't know about it, you keep your trap shut, your friends keep their traps shut and nobody is wiser then........

Same principal. S S S. If myself and some of my friends enter into a private arrangement where certain things are exchanged for other things then if we keep it quiet and below the radar then we are liable not to get the ATF or anybody else on our case.

However, if we run off our mouths on this forum or in general conversation then we are putting ourselves at risk for no good reason. S S S

I will say that I generally will not make reloads for anybody. The liability issue is always there and if somone is injured by one of my reloads then I will also feel the pain and will want to make amends. Not too many friendships are strong enough if some severe injury is involved.

Just this week I took my wife out to the range to wring out her new 9 MM pistol I had bought her for her birthday. The darned thing kicked like a mule. She complained. I tried the gun and it kicked me also. It was not her. It was not the gun. It was my reloads. They were too potent. Although I got the load from a published source it was too hot and flattened the primers and beat up both the guns. Now I have another 900 rounds that either I will shoot in my Ruger Blackhawk with the 9 MM cylinder or pull down and reload.

That is another reason why I do not carry my reloads for a carry gun where I am liable to have to use it in a social encounter. I want to make sure that the silly things go bang and for the ability to say "I used the same defensive loads that the police do.....here are the boxes they came in and here are also some brother and sister rounds from the same box and you can test them if required to see if they are POTENT KILLER ROUNDS ETC."

Again keeping a low profile and below the radar makes life a lot easier. Do you really want to be a test case? Have to hire Masaad Ayoob as your expert witnesss and pay a slime sucking bottom feeding barrister to defend you against a civil case where you used deadly force against somebody while using your home made reloads?

Keep it simple stupid. S S S & KISS

[44fanatic]

zipped

[Blammer]

I would renounce all sales suggestions here an then talk in private to my friend to sell them some boolits.

I'd not make a mountain out of a mole hill.

Descretion is a good thing.

[Village Idiot]

44Fanatic

Welcome,

I’ve been reloading for years and just took the “pour your own” plunge a few months back. Thanks to this forum and the vast knowledge here my learning curve has been shortened by months if not years. I know I have tons to learn but looking back these people have saved me hours upon hours of frustration.

Thanks for this thread also. As you said you ask the question because you don’t know and are looking to gain knowledge for yourself and others whom may not know. I am one of those. I load only for my wife and myself (both invested in it, even have a joint checking account lol). I have never loaded for others more because of the liability aspect but, good to know the law also.

Thanks, V.I.

[WallyM3]

klcarrol, I am in agreement with you that often absurd scenarios are offered as rebuttal and that they defy common sense (as shared by most of the folks who linger here) on their face and that they cheapen the dialog.

But I am having a hard time making the connection between requiring an FFL to cast and sell boolits (or bullets, for that matter) and the out-of-control violence in Chicago. Indeed, as elsewhere, there appears to be a positive correlation between the restrictiveness of an area's gun laws and the level of run-away violence.

And the notion that all laws exist for a good reason is equally startling. There is some law, somewhere, that prohibits, limits or taxes everything we do, want to do, or should be able to do. Now, the Fifth Grade school teacher will sagely opine that there have to be rules in society. This is not a rebuttal to the first sentence of this paragraph, but a blanket declaration shielded by vagueness.

It was estimated some years back that fully 10% of the GDP was barter. I suspect it's more than that and probably climbs in times of economic slumps. That's a very big number.

The caution about the BATFE is no child's play. They have no sense of humor and have ruined lives and livelihoods through ignorance and/or mean spiritedness, never mind the legitimate enforcement of those laws that exist "for our own good".

I've got no dog in this fight, so maybe I should have read this thread and moved along. But something about it struck me.

[AZ-Stew]

Also to klcarrol:

Just because a law is on the books doesn't mean it's either Constitutional or moral. Yes, obey the law, but when the law infringes on our Constitutional rights, we change it by electing folks who will repeal it or participate in civil disobedience until we can force change. The latter requires a concerted effort on the part of a great number of folks and is probably not practical in this case.

What bothers me about your post is that you seem to have accepted this law and a great many others in the hope that they will assure your safety. People on the east and west coast are the same way. They're brain washed by their local media to accept these regulations as "normal". In reality, all these regulations and bureaucracies do is steal your liberty. Those of us who live in the Free Territories Of The United States don't see things that way. When the government starts pushing us around, we're likely to push back.

What you need to do, rather than sitting back and taking this carp and extolling its virtues as "crime control" (it's not, look at your crime statistics) is to get up and start working with your friend to vote out all the damned gun controlling Democrat pols in the Chicago area. Replace them with some folks that will work with our representatives to repeal these useless, restrictive, unconstitutional laws and regulations. Then we can sit here and talk about which boolits are the best to trade with friends, rather than arguing over whether or not some damned government license is required to do so.

Regards,

Stew

[crabo]

Bring your friends over and let them catch the communicable disease. I have been found to be highly contagious. It also seems to cost my friends a lot of money as they start buying guns and gear.

[wistlepig1]

If you are on this forum you are likely to be on a Govt. list already. Don't sweat it the elections are coming up, get the progressive, liberal, and other forms of idiots voted out and we can go back to a free country, and after the presidential election we can all breath free again.

I can't add to that!:holysheep

[rockrat]

I will only add, welcome to the fire.

Maybe RUN also. There are enablers here!!!!

You know how many boolit moulds I have bought over the years, because of these guys. I didn't own a 6 cav. Lee or any NOE moulds till I came here:)