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View Full Version : Modifying the Marlin 1894 for a longer cartridge OAL



imashooter2
06-24-2006, 05:00 PM
Woke up this morning to a rainy day with nothing particularly important on the to do list, so I decided to play with my Marlin 1894C. My rifle wouldn't feed a cartridge longer than 1.600 and 1.580 was a lot smoother. Problem is, I recently acquired a SAECO #353 that shoots great, but has a crimp to nose length of about .330. I tried to load them as short as possible, but about 1/3 of them would get hung up transitioning from the magazine and require me to clear the jam with a key, screwdriver or whatever expedient tool. So my options were either trim some dedicated brass short, or modify the cartridge stop on the shell carrier. I decided to go with the modified cartridge stop so I wouldn't have to change the die setup on my SDB dependant on what brass I was stuffing that day.

First step was to disassemble the rifle. There are pretty decent instructions at Marauder's Old Irons page (http://www.marauder.homestead.com/files/Marlin94.html). He has a nice exploded view picture linked there as well.

http://www.imashooter2.com/pictures/cartstop/dis-sm.jpg


Retrieve the shell carrier from your parts pile. This is the surface that needs to be cut back to allow longer than 1.600 OAL to feed reliably.


http://www.imashooter2.com/pictures/cartstop/cs1-sm.jpg


Take a measurement from the pivot hole to the face of the stop and decide how much you want to take off. I've read on Beartooth that you can remove up to .100 without issue, but since removing is easy and putting back is hard, I went with .050. That should allow smooth feeding with cartridges up to 1.630 OAL and a maximum OAL of 1.650. More than enough for my purposes.


http://www.imashooter2.com/pictures/cartstop/meas1-sm.jpg

Clamp the shell carrier in a soft jaw vise and carefully remove material from the indicated surface of the cartridge stop with a mill file. Take care and keep it square. Stop often and measure from both sides to ensure you aren't getting the surface cocked. Remember, taking material off is easy, putting it back is hard. When you have removed the material you've decided on, radius the upper edge slightly as in the stock unit and deburr the edges. If you have a fine needle file, work the radius between the stop face and the body of the lifter to relieve any stress risers. When you are finished, lightly polish the worked surfaces with a little 320 paper. You could cold blue the bare metal, but I didn't bother.

Believe it or not, I took 4 pictures of the finished product. Every one is a nice focus on the 320 paper. But, since I took the picture, I'm going to make you download it anyway.[smilie=1:


http://www.imashooter2.com/pictures/cartstop/file-sm.jpg

All that's left is to reassemble the rifle per Marauder's instructions and function test. I put together 3 dummy cartridges at 1.630 and gave them a try. They all feed just as smoothly as the unmodified rifle would handle 1.580.

BTW, while I had it apart, I slicked the action a bit using the instructions Marauder thoughtfully provides (http://www.marauder.homestead.com/files/TUNING_M_1894.htm). The rifle cycles smooth as can be and the trigger, which was crisp but heavy from the factory is now very good.

I need to load a few and get to the range!

Uncle Grinch
06-25-2006, 10:14 PM
Thanks for the excellent post. I may want to give my Marlin '94 a try with this info.

45nut
10-12-2006, 11:15 PM
this is a well written post that needs a bump.

JFE
10-15-2006, 11:23 AM
Excellent post. Thanks for sharing.

Anyone seen any similar articles on the bigger Marlins or Win 92 / 86 ?

versifier
10-15-2006, 01:08 PM
Great post. This should be a Sticky.

imashooter2
10-16-2006, 08:59 PM
Thanks all for the kind words.

To anyone considering the mod, I've shot a few rounds now and can report 100% success. Absolutely no difference in feeding shorter rounds (was smooth, is smooth) and complete reliability with longer cartridges.

boogerred
10-16-2006, 11:59 PM
nice paper! im glad to see another man who,s not afraid to take a gun apart and gather info on how to make it better and who is also patient enough to tinker and put it back together and take it back apart and tinker some more until he gets it right. i routinely take apart my new guns and deburr,polish, and tweak them.often before i shoot them. i love to tinker so a "rough " gun doesnt bother me much. like you said- taking off is easy, putting back is hard. easy does it.

Dutch4122
02-18-2008, 09:18 AM
Glad I found this old thread. Seems that this is just the fix I need for my 1894SS in .44 Magnum. Throat on this thing is .203" measured with a jacketed slug seated backwards. I'd like to do this modification in order to increase the C.O.L.; and get the boolit snuggled up a little closer to the lands at ignition. Any chance of re-posting the pictures? They are no longer loading.

Thanks,

imashooter2
02-18-2008, 10:33 AM
I have the pictures on my Comcast personal web site. They're still there and they load for me. Here's links to them. If that doesn't work, I can email them to you.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/imashooter2/pictures/cartstop/dis-sm.jpg

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/imashooter2/pictures/cartstop/cs1-sm.jpg

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/imashooter2/pictures/cartstop/meas1-sm.jpg

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/imashooter2/pictures/cartstop/file-sm.jpg

Dutch4122
02-18-2008, 04:09 PM
Links to the pictures work fine.:drinks:

Thanks a million!:-D

dukers65
03-21-2008, 09:48 PM
do you think it possible a winchester trapper could be lengthed in the same way to accept a longer bullet. dan

imashooter2
03-21-2008, 10:26 PM
I thought the Winchesters were based on the same frame as the .30/30? I don't see why they wouldn't handle very, very long .357 magnums.

JesterGrin_1
08-27-2008, 02:09 PM
Bumb for some GREAT INFO. :) Thanks Again Imashooter2

BCB
08-27-2008, 02:29 PM
imashooter2,

Interesting as I also have a 1984 in 357 Magnum. After you removed the 0.05", what O.C.L. did it allow you to cycle without jams? Or was this already posted and i missed it? Thanks...BCB

JesterGrin_1
08-27-2008, 03:21 PM
All the info is there. Just re read it. :)

imashooter2
08-27-2008, 04:45 PM
imashooter2,

Interesting as I also have a 1984 in 357 Magnum. After you removed the 0.05", what O.C.L. did it allow you to cycle without jams? Or was this already posted and i missed it? Thanks...BCB

It's buried in there... smooth feeding with cartridges up to 1.630 OAL and a maximum OAL of 1.650.

That was based on my stock configuration that was best with 1.580 and maxed at 1.600. I've read reliable reports from others on Marlin Owners that have rifles that feed 1.620 from the factory. I'd certainly check before I did the mod, but if you have to make the adjustment, it works great! A whole lot of rounds through it at this point and no complaints whatsoever.

BCB
08-27-2008, 04:55 PM
imashooter2,

Yep, after I read and then reread your 1st post, I found the info. I reload the 358429 and it is too long if crimped in the crimp groove. So, I shortened the 357 Magnum cases enough to allow crimp in the groove and still cycle. With this practice, I do loose a minimal amount of powder space, but I probably increase the pressure with less internal capacity of the shortened case. I may attempt to dismantle my 1894 just to see if I can get that far. The file work may occur much, much later! Thanks...BCB

imashooter2
08-27-2008, 05:53 PM
Hey BCB,
This isn't a hard mod to do. If you take it slow and check the cut often, it's not likely you'll make any mistake you can't recover from.

JesterGrin_1
05-20-2009, 08:05 PM
Sorry I have to BUMP this for good info. :)

imashooter2
05-21-2009, 10:51 PM
LOL! It's nice to have a fan...

If you're going to keep bumping this, I'm going to have to take the rifle apart and get a better picture of the finished product.

JesterGrin_1
05-21-2009, 11:17 PM
Okay looking forward to it. :) Hey you threw the ball lol. :)

JesterGrin_1
06-11-2009, 07:56 PM
OK Monthly BUMP :)

358wcf
06-11-2009, 08:15 PM
Excellent-- I will keep this thread for future use, for sure!!
Has anyone found a way to modify a Winchester 94 to properly feed a cartridge such as the 357 Maximum???? If this can be done, I have one ready for rebore to 35 caliber any moment-

358wcf

NHlever
07-15-2009, 11:43 AM
There must have been some changes in the .357 Mag Winchester 94's along the way. My Legacy (cross bolt safety vintage) feeds about anything including the RCBS 35-200 seated to the crimp groove. It would be interesting to see my carrier beside one that has problems with longer rounds.....

imashooter2
07-15-2009, 03:05 PM
The Winchester rifles are all made on the same receiver that feeds .30/30 and the like. They've never had an OAL problem to my knowledge. The Marlins, on the other hand, use a smaller receiver in their pistol cartridge 1894 rifles than their full size 336 and 1895 rifles.

hollow-point
09-21-2011, 08:08 PM
i like my little marlin it does all it should and then some. very informative.:coffee:

Char-Gar
09-22-2011, 12:35 AM
I did this modification on my .357 and 44 Mag Marlin leverguns. Worked like a charm both times.

enoch59
01-30-2014, 04:35 AM
I just found this thread. WOW, Awesome advise. I can't believe I haven't thought of this before. Thank you so much. I'm going to zip into my 444 first because it hangs a little on most of the ammo I reload for it. I can't wait for tomorrow morning to get with it. I'll post results. Great thread.

imashooter2
01-30-2014, 07:47 AM
LOL! Zombie thread...

For anyone still on the fence, many thousand through the rifle at this point. Long ones, short ones, it feeds them all.

308w
01-30-2014, 11:16 AM
Bump for a great post!!

fecmech
01-30-2014, 11:28 AM
FWIW My Winchester94AE will feed 358429 in the crimp groove in mag cases. Plenty of room in that action.

Walter Laich
01-30-2014, 01:56 PM
This is certainly a do-able' mod

enoch59
01-30-2014, 07:48 PM
I just finished pulling apart my Marlin 444 and lo and behold this mod is not possible on its carrier or if it is possible it's beyond my capabilities at this point. There is a spring loaded catch at the end of the bullet ramp and so I would move on to my Marlin 44 CL but I've never experienced a problem not having enough room to load whatever I chose to. Ergo I will keep this mod for work on other rifles that are brought to me for light gunsmithing duties and or when I get another 1894 CL in .357 mag. Thanks again for an awesome thread.

phaessler
02-04-2014, 09:00 PM
Isnt the 444 on a round bolt action? similar to the 45-70?

imashooter2
02-04-2014, 09:20 PM
The Marlin .444 is chambered in their 1895 receiver. The gun does have a round bolt, but it is a lever action.

W.R.Buchanan
02-05-2014, 07:35 PM
Both the 336/1895 and 1894 actions work exactly the same way. However I don't see why you would need to lengthen the lifter on a 336/1895 simply because they are already feeding cartridges that are as long as the action will swallow.

With the 1894 action moving the cartridge stop back .100-125 will allow the gun to feed longer boolits like 300+ gr LFN's and such. However since the gun has a 1:38 twist it is not going to stabilize them so going too far is kind of pointless. Mine is stock length and it will feed 429244's which are 1.670 long. I will probably cut the stop back a little just so it won't hang up inadvertently.

However the biggest problem with running Wide Meplat or WFN style boolits or SWC's is getting the edge of the meplat gouged out by the sharp edge of the chamber mouth. This usually stops the gun until you back the lever out a little and go forward again.

The fix for this problem, which should be done along with any mods to the lifter, is to chamfer the mouth of the chamber .050-.060. This allows the cartridge to smoothly enter the chamber without gouging into the boolit..

It is a simple fix and will make your 1894 run much smoother with anything you try to shoot in it. People who don't do this simple mod are pretty much restricted to RNFP style boolits which just aren't that much fun. A Lyman 429244 SWCGC at 1600+ fps is a very formidable round and will punch thru meat and leave a 7/16" hole behind. Since the same boolit at 900 fps from a revolver will go clean thru an Elk in any direction I see the extra 700 fps as insurance. This also opens up the use of other SWC's like 429421/H&G503 for use in your rifle. Midrange loads from your revolver will now run perfectly in the rifle, so there is a double duty thing there as well.

Get on board with this chamfer mod, it really makes the guns work better and it is simple to do. I really don't see why they don't do it at the factory.

Randy

JesterGrin_1
02-05-2014, 09:54 PM
I had very good results if you call 2 1/2 groups at 100 yards with the Marlin 1894SS .44 Mag with the Lee 310Gr RNFP/GC. I guess I was just to new to the game to know that 300+ Gr Boolits would not work in the Marlin.

imashooter2
02-05-2014, 09:54 PM
While I have nothing against adding a chamfer to the chamber, I'll point out that my unchamfered 1894C feeds WFN designs very nicely. Top is the Larson design Lee group buy, bottom is a design by member Crabo and I have also used NOE's 360-180-WFN.

http://imashooter2.com/pictures/crabo-des.jpg

seaboltm
02-05-2014, 10:10 PM
This needs to be a sticky.

dragon813gt
02-05-2014, 10:26 PM
Mine has fed everything except a 358180 RF. That is strictly a revolver bullet design for me.

W.R.Buchanan
02-06-2014, 11:56 PM
The guns usually will shoot up to a 300 gr boolit if you run them fast enough. You can get accuracy at lower velocities with shorter boolits like 429244 at 260 gr. The ones that give the problems are the 315-330 gr LFN's. It is almost impossible to push those Boolits fast enough to stabilize them with a 1:38 twist barrel. The custom guns made by David Clay have 1:16 -1:18 twist barrels and modified lifters to accommodate cartridges of 1.75 OAL like Garrett Hammerheads which are loaded with 330 gr LBT LFN's, which are normally made for use in Ruger Super RedHawks.

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/44hammerheadplusp.html

Note that they claim 1400 fps from a 7.5" bbl. and 1435 ft lbs. That would be more like 18-1900 fps from a 20bbl carbine. Which puts it squarely in .45-70 territory.

These guns are effectively duplicating Marlin Guide Gun ballistics but with .44 Magnum cartridges instead of .45-70's.

I would be very happy with a 2.5" group at 100 yds. with a 300 gr boolit. I have that mould also but haven't shot any yet. It also has the two crimp grooves so you can load it short enough so it will function in these actions.

ImaShooter: not so much of a problem with the 357's but a completely different story with the .44's and .45's. The Meplats on those boolits are as big as a whole .357 boolit. The LBT .44 WFN's have a .340 meplat. I think the .45's are more like .360.

If you watch the cycle as the cartridge is being pushed forward when the lever is closed, the round is pinned up against the top of the receiver. It continues along until the front edge of the chamber directs it into the hole.. If the rounded edge of the boolit doesn't go in the hole then the edges of the boolit come in contact with the chamber mouth. This is where the hang up occurs. The sharp edges of the boolit (lead) get dug into by the sharp edges (steel) of mouth of the chamber.

It is common to chamfer the chambers on revolvers so that they load easier. You'd think that Marlin would chamfer the chamber on these guns to make them load easier. This could be done with a chambering reamer which has the chamfer or better yet a radius incorporated into the tool. It would cost exactly nothing to do. They grind their own reamers any way so making a step on it wouldn't be a big deal. It would just be slightly different than what they do now. IE: it would be an improvement to their process, which would produce a better gun, and cost them nothing to execute. Hell the machinist running the lathe turning the barrel threads and chambering it could even do it as a second op while he was waiting for the Lathe to finish the next bbl. with a piloted radius tool on a cordless drill or a Tee handle. This is a simple operation.

Randy

bearcove
02-16-2014, 04:36 PM
The 45-70 comparison might be stretching a bit.

Load the 45-70 to max like the 44 is and it is not the same territory.

TCLouis
02-17-2014, 11:38 AM
Mid month bump

Char-Gar
02-17-2014, 12:09 PM
I did that same modification to my Marlin 1895 in 44 Magnum about 8 years ago and it works like a champ.

W.R.Buchanan
02-19-2014, 11:40 PM
bearcove: the point was a .44 loaded hot is similar to a midrange .45-70. certainly not the other way around.

Randy

bearcove
02-21-2014, 08:32 PM
OK If you shoot the 44 mag in a carbine you will get an increase of about 500 fps over a 4 inch barrel about 300 from your 7 1/2 inch Garrett data.

That means 1700 with a 330 gr bullet.

A trapdoor load @ 17000 CUP and a 330 grain bullet is 1700 fps.

Marlin loads which are on the light side of medium 25000cup 2050 fps.

I can get there with a 454 carbine or close

The note on the Garrett site also notes these are loaded to 43500cup which is 10% over max. might be a bit stiff for a rear locking lever.

I was just noting that I felt you were stretching a bit.

W.R.Buchanan
02-21-2014, 08:56 PM
I always try to post with as much accuracy as I can back up, and maintain some margin of plausibility. All of these loads are **** Kickers and I would never shoot them unless I absolutely had to.

Actually the Marlin action is supposed to be fine with 43,500PSI, and Brian Pearce did and extensive article on loading the .44 to a variety of pressure levels for pistols.

A .45-70 loaded to 43,500PSI is a completely different animal, and with 400 gr Brass Solids at 2000+ fps will go clean thru anything know to man, and in any direction. There is no way you could get a .44 Magnum to this level no matter what you did. And I doubt anyone would like shooting a 7 lb. gun with any of the above mentioned loads more than once or twice.

The guns they were using were all David Clay modified 1894's with 18" barrels with 1:16 to 1:20 twist barrels. These guns were built specifically to use the Garrett Ammo, and other than being modified to swallow the longer Cartridge OAL, different barrels with tighter bores, and smoothed out, there were no other enhancements. One was for Brian Pearce and the other was for Ashley Emerson inventor of XS sights. Brian's was a Stainless take down, and I don't know about Emerson's gun other than it has a blued finish, as I have only seen pics and really couldn't tell. Brian's gun cost him $3600! and that was the good guy price.

Randy

bearcove
02-21-2014, 09:21 PM
The 336 action is a strong action, the 1894 actions are very different. I don't know what they are "rated" at. I do know of 475 L being done on them.

But as you said the 45-70 will crank out more than most will want to hold on to. But then there is the 50 Alaskan, more better!

Problem I see is people are hotrodding pistol cartridges to try and do what is easy in a rifle cartridge. If you are an expert have fun, guns are neat toys.

The rifle is only a pound lighter, at most, and that isn't worth the effort for me. I wish my 1895 was 3 pounds heavier sometimes. LOL!

W.R.Buchanan
02-22-2014, 08:52 PM
Oh boy, don't get me started on the 3 lbs heavier road. My 1894 CB .44 with 24" bbl. weighs 7 lbs 8 oz. My 1895 CB .45-70 with the 26" bbl. weighs 7lbs 2 oz! go figure?

I can shoot 300 gr boolits at about 1200 fps all day long. (25 gr of 5744). At 1500 fps (35 gr of 5744) I'm good for about 4-5 shots and then I'm pretty much done. Mind you, the gun has a 1" thick Pachmayr recoil pad too. The thing is simply too light for this cartridge.

It will be getting about 2+ lbs. of lead poured into the stock soon to bump the weight to 9.5-10 lbs,where the gun needs to be to shoot 400gr boolits more than twice in one setting.

I really like the gun but the wood they used on the stocks was about as dense as balsa. Maybe a new buttstock someday made from something that matters. That should help with the weight but it will still need supplemental lead as well.

The gun looks real nice and I refinished the stocks and added the pad. I am changing the Williams sight to a Lyman 66LA for better repeatability and I plan on using it for Cowboy Silhouette next year. The gun hangs on the barrel so well it will certainly make a great Silhouette rifle, and if I ever get to go to the Yukon for a moose it will be the gun going with me.

Randy

bearcove
02-22-2014, 09:08 PM
I can say that I carry my 1895 in SE, SCentral, and SW Alaska, When I've shot the HEAVY loads cause I needed to. Never felt a thing. Adrenalin is a wonderful thing. IF you don't need a stopping rifle, not you specificly but others out there, WHY are you shooting one for fun?

THE ADRENALIN comes from the situation.

The 7lb thing is, 'cause the less pain to carry it, the more likely you'll have it when you need it.

That's why I sold my pre64 375 H&H 10.5 Lbs.

Sold it cheap and still hate that sell, amazing how $500 bucks you didn't need can bother you!

JesterGrin_1
02-23-2014, 07:21 AM
How did all this start from a simple thread on Modifying the Marlin 1894 for a longer cartridge OAL?

We went from a worthwhile modification if one should need to do so depending on boolit selection to trying to see how close one can get to blowing something UP lol.


So back to the subject. When I had a Marlin 1894SS in .44 Mag I found the modification to be greatly helpful to enable me to use .44 Remington Brass and the Lee 310Gr RNFP/GC at the bottom crimp groove for a long OAL. The load was just a tad less than 44Man suggested which was Remington .44 Mag Brass with a CCI LPP (Not Magnum Primer) with 21.0Gr of W-296 powder and the Lee 310GR RNFP/GC with Lars BAC Lube and dipped for the heck of it one time in 45-45-10 and sized at .432 would give me right at 2 1/2" groups or a hair better at 100 yards with a 3x9 scope. Which is not bad for throwing rocks lol.

For a Hunting load the Lee 310 RNFP/GC was the most accurate hunting boolit I tried.

But as I mentioned had which means I was not happy with the accuracy of the Marlin 1894SS in .44 Mag or its repeatability which would range from as high as 3" down to 2 1/4 at 100 yards so I traded it off to someone that wanted it for closer in work and wanted something handy and in Stainless and I purchased a Marlin 1895GS in 45-70 that will give me 3/4" Groups at 100 yards. So it is a no brainer as to which one I feel is better. :)

W.R.Buchanan
02-24-2014, 03:57 PM
We did a little off topic, but that is more because I am naturally blabby and can't help myself.

The mod is a simple one and a good one, as is Chamfering the Chamber Mouth.

The rest of what you can do to these guns pretty much comes under the heading of "Deburring."

Randy

JesterGrin_1
02-24-2014, 08:15 PM
The rest of what you can do to these guns pretty much comes under the heading of "Deburring."

Randy

DeBurring heck with my last new purchase which was a Ruger from Lipsy's I needed side cutters and a file lol.