What's the best way to handle this throat??

[fecmech]

My drawing is not the best but it gives the dimensions of the throat on my 94 Winchester that I got from the impact casting. The gun shoots reasonably well, 1-2" 10-- shot groups @50 yds and 3-5" at 100 yds even with the throat leading. I have been using the Lyman 358429 ,Lee 158 rnfp and H&G 158 RN. The RNFP and RN do well in .38 spl level loads and the Keith is the best at magnum levels. I get no leading other than the throat and the start of rifling. I just got the NOE 180 rnfp but have not had much chance to work with it yet. The mold has both GC and PB cavities and I would like to stay PB as much as I can. I have some Max cases trimmed to 1.340 from a previous rifle. Is my best shot setting the 180 and the Keith out of the max cases long?? How about in plain mag brass? The case in the pic is standard Mag brass. Suggestions and comments would be appreciated. Nick

[45 2.1]

I've got basically the same problem in another rifle. I would try the longer case and seat them out to just touch whatever they'll touch. That long lead will cause problems though.

[HORNET]

What kind of OAL can you get to and still have it feed? Lyman used to make a358627 that was a LONG SWC that has 2 crimping grooves. I'm thinking you might try getting some samples and see what they do if you seat them out to the rear crimp groove. Or a rechamber to .357 Maximum would get interesting if it would feed. I don't think Marlins will handle the length but that '94 Winchester might, it was intended for a much longer round to start with.

[fecmech]

Feeding is not an issue I was just looking to squeeze as much accuracy out of this barrel for pistol caliber silhouette as I could. I think if it was re chambered to Max (which I'm not going to do) it would probably shoot like crazy. I just want to do the best with what I have.

[OBXPilgrim]

Sounds like Blammers' Winny 94. He reamed it to chamber 360 Dan Wesson ammo, I believe took some lengthening (cutting) the stop on the cartridge carrier & modifying the feed rails (they're removable). I think Max will be too much - seems there was a good reason he didn't.

I think it works quite well for him. You might want to PM him.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/Trapper.html

I think Tycer gave some guidance in the mods.

[HORNET]

I think I'd try it with something that could be sized big (.360?) and seated out far enough to fill most of that throat, preferably with a short nose. That would reduce the gap that it has to jump so it would be like the cylinder throat in a revolver.

[mroliver77]

I would run the longest case you can in it. The "throat" going from the case OD to the bore just stinks. My Marlin is the same but has a very short "funnel" instead of long like yours. I would use the larges boolit that will chamber safely and keep alloy hard so boolit does not upset in front of case only to be squeezed back down in the throat. I am amazed how well these thing shoot with such chambers.
Jay

[Tom Myers]

I have always wondered if a good way to handle these long tapered throats would be to use a relatively soft heeled bullet that would fill the throat and give good support and alignment to the bullet as it starts down the bore.

I took the liberty of using your drawing dimensions to draw up a chamber and then design a bullet to fit using normal length 357 brass.

I realize that there would be a lot of swaging down to 357 but I have, in the past, used some very over sized bullets in a 40-65 with a grossly over sized chamber and they worked just fine.

Not to say that this would be an ideal solution, but I sure would like to see if it could work.

Whaddayaall think?



http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/357%20Mag%20Heeled/A_TMT_Design_380-358-200-Heel.Jpg

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/357%20Mag%20Heeled/A_TMT_Design_380-358-200-Heel_197_gr_Sketch~~F~Cavity.Jpg

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/357%20Mag%20Heeled/357_Magnum_94_Winchester~A_TMT_Design_380-358-.Jpg

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/357%20Mag%20Heeled/357_Magnum_94_Winchester~A_TMT_Design_380-358-Long.Jpg

[fecmech]

I like the looks of that Tom! I'm basically a revolver guy with little rifle experience so I'd like to hear from others also. The only concern I have is the C.G. on the bullet but I don't know it's importance versus the crappy throat. If the consensus is that it would work and I can get Mountain Molds to cut one I might just give it a try if you don't mind me using your drawings. I've thrown a hundred bucks at crazier things in my life! Nick

Just went to Mountain Molds site, according to his FAQ and his design program this bullet is a no go.

[Tom Myers]

I had thought about Mountain Molds, but had not checked it out.

How about this.

I really think it would work.

Find a single cavity Lyman 358429 and then locate a good machinist and have him simply open up the front band and nose profile something like this:

This drawing was reworked from the actual dimensions of my sigle cavity Lyman 358429 mold.

Lyman 358429
http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/357%20Mag%20Heeled/358429.jpg

Overlay
http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/357%20Mag%20Heeled/Composit.jpg

Finished Heeled bullet
http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/357%20Mag%20Heeled/358%20heeled.jpg

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/357%20Mag%20Heeled/357_Magnum_94_Winchester~Lyman_Mold_Reworked_35842 9-.Jpg

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/357%20Mag%20Heeled/Lyman_Mold_Reworked_358429_193_gr_Sketch.Jpg

[Tom Myers]

I had thought about Mountain Molds, but had not checked it out.

How about this.

Find a single cavity Lyman 358429 and then locate a good machinist and have him simply open up the front band and nose profile something like this:

Lyman 358429
http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/357%20Mag%20Heeled/358429.jpg

Overlay
http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/357%20Mag%20Heeled/Composit.jpg

Finished Heeled bullet
http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/357%20Mag%20Heeled/358%20heeled.jpg

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/357%20Mag%20Heeled/357_Magnum_94_Winchester~Lyman_Mold_Reworked_35842 9-.Jpg

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/357%20Mag%20Heeled/Lyman_Mold_Reworked_358429_193_gr_Sketch.Jpg

[fecmech]

Have a good sized gun show coming up this weekend, I'll see what I can find. Thanks for the ideas Tom. Nick

[ktw]

I have a similar chamber situation with a rebounding hammer Winchester 94 in 45 Colt.

Shoots good with jacketed or hard cast with gas check. Won't shoot well with plain based cast unless they are sized 457 which I can finger seat into fired brass.

I have trimmed down 454 Casull brass to fit the long chamber and that shot slightly better but gave me occasional Failure to Fire problems (small rifle primers) that I never got with 45 Colt Brass/Large Pistol primers.

I will revisit the 454 Casull Brass option someday after putting a stronger hammer spring in the rifle but for the time being bullet-sized-to-fit-fireformed-brass has been the solution that works for me even though the brass is a bit short for the chamber.

-ktw

[BABore]

Try some 460 S&W brass. That way you can get back to the LP primer.

[geargnasher]

I've never used a heeled boolit, but that sounds like the ticket.

Question: How do you roll-crimp with an oversized nose? The only thing I can think of would be use a Lee FCD, but even then the nose might scrape the crimping collet on the way up.

Gear

[Wayne Smith]

The Lee FCD design is the only practical way to crimp a heeled boolit. You would probably have to design one to fit that case.

Tom, what's the purpose of the GC on a heeled boolit? It won't expand to bore size, it won't prevent gas blow-by, and it won't scrape. The boolit will expand to bore size in a high pressure round like the 357 Mag or Max but what will happen to the lube in the process?

[Tom Myers]

The Lee FCD design is the only practical way to crimp a heeled boolit. You would probably have to design one to fit that case.

Tom, what's the purpose of the GC on a heeled boolit? It won't expand to bore size, it won't prevent gas blow-by, and it won't scrape. The boolit will expand to bore size in a high pressure round like the 357 Mag or Max but what will happen to the lube in the process?

Wayne. The gas check starts out at groove diameter. The Nose of the bullet is at chamber diameter and will be swaged down by the long taper from chamber diameter down to groove diameter

[Wayne Smith]

OK, Thanks, Tom. Now I see the obvious. I've got my mind twisted around my .41 Colt heeled boolits, I guess.