.45 ACP driving me nuts

[jonk]

Got a Rock Island .45. No matter what I do, it keeps leading.

Here's what I've tried:

3 different powders including Bullseye, Red Dot, and HS6, using start loads and working up to near max.

All with a Lee 200 gr SWC bullet. In THEORY this bullet fits the barrel well, dropping 1-2/1000 over groove size. I'm loading them as dropped.

Used LLA, Felix lube, and 50/50 lube.

Water dropped Wheelweights, aircooled wheelweights, and 50/50 soft lead and weights mixed.

Nope, they ALL lead.

So I lapped the bore, as I could see a few chatter marks on the cutting. It smoothed out nicely (so it looks).

Yesterday I shot the gun again. Fairly normal load, 200 gr SWC, 3.5 gr Bullseye, ACWW, LLA.

Not only did it still lead, it leaded horribly. Big chunks of ironed on lead the size of a flattened pea were coming out of the barrel. Equally bad at the chamber end and at the muzzle, and all in between.

I'm at a loss here. I'm thinking of ordering a new barrel (used?) and saving this one for jacketed.

[HeavyMetal]

I feel your pain!

About 3 years ago one of the guys in our service dept bought a 45 auto, a Dan Wesson I belive, and put some rounds through it and said it was leaded so badly he couldn't get the lead out!

He brought me the pistol and I spent a week end with it cleaning the bore.

Trust me it was an ugly deal!

After I got the lead out I was able to see the bore and it looked like a corn cob after dinner!

This was an incediblely poor job of machineing so much so that I instantly suggested he contact the maker, or better yet, just spring for a new BarSto and be done with it.

A few months latter he went to work for the LA fire dept and I never did find out what he did about that barrel.

Clean the snot out of yours and see if some one local has a good bore scope to really examine the rifling and bore of your barrel.

Replacement will depend on many things but having the proof before you ask for anything is a good place to start.

If this is a used gun the same suggestion I gave the other guy applies here as well, go buy a new barrel!

[jonk]

I bought it brand new. For what I paid for it I wasn't unhappy, I know what it looked like unfired. Just had a few little rough marks near the muzzle that I thought might contribute to leading.

Shoots jacketed great, just not cast. :(

[Lloyd Smale]

Id tell you to try harder but if it is actually that bad id say your barrel is junk.

[Russel Nash]

Okay everbody....

say it with me...

Did ya slug the bore?

Oh...yeah...

And what size diameter are the boolits, actually?

[Russel Nash]

Whhhoooopppsss!!!

Sorry...I just re-read the Original Post (OP) and saw where it says they are half a thousandth over groove diameter.

Well...I still gotta ask...something like...

Are the boolits actually round?

I guess it could be theoretically that in one direction the boolit measures .452", but 90 degrees to that, it could measuring at .453" or .454"

Just throwing that out there as a possible idea.

[BABore]

Also look to your sizing, expander, and crimp dies. Are you using a boolit of proper diameter, then having it sized down because of alloy and an undersized expander? Or is your crimp die reducing the boolit diameter as the Lee FCD will sometimes do as it irons the case out. Load up a dummy, then slit the case down each side with a Dremel. This allows you to measure the boolit without disturbing it too much. Pounding one out with an inertia hammer will reduce the diameter when it passes through the crimp area.

[inuhbad]

How many rounds are you firing prior to getting any leading problems?

Honestly, I think you might STILL be having a problem because of the mold. I've replaced my Lee 45 moulds with Lyman 2-Cavs for my 45, and they've been GREAT. Virtually ZERO leading. I only get leading maybe 2-3 times a year!

I usually don't see signs of leading until I've fired over ~300 rounds through the gun without cleaning!

In the event that I DO get leading, it's not a big deal - I just remove the 1911 barrel, drop it into a jar of acetone for ~5 minutes, and run a bronze bore brush through a few times. The leading comes out quickly & easily after one or two short dunks in acetone. Then some brushing, and patches with Hoppes 9.

You state that you're using a LEE mold, but WHICH precise lee mold are you using?
Is it a Lee mold for ALOX lube, or a more traditional lube bullet design?
What sizing/lubing press & die diameters are you using to size your boolits?

These are all potential influencing factors...

[jonk]

As I said- a Lee 200gr SWC. It's a 6 cavity conventional design.

As I said- I'm using them as cast and the bullet measures 1-2/1000 over groove diameter, depending on what cavity in the mold it comes out of. Bore measures .453 across the grooves, bullets are dropping .454-5.

Given proper diameter fit I can't think that the BRAND of bullet mold will make a difference at all. Whether that bullet shoots accurately or not is another matter.

I get leading after 10-15 rounds.

I do like the idea of looking at after-seated size. If the dies aren't expanding the brass enough that could well be the issue.

Not using the FCD.

[Mk42gunner]

Sounds like a bad barrel to me.

Maybe see if you can try a different bullet design, although your sizes seem to be on the large side for a .45 ACP.


Robert

[KCSO]

I have a RIA and have sold or handled about 20 more. It seems like about every 10-12 guns one will have a rough bore. I would order up a new barrel for cast and be dont with it but you could just shoot about 2000 jacketed slugs and then give it another try.

[lead4me]

I see that you have stated 1-2/1000 over? Are you posting .0005 over or .001 to .002 over? Big difference, I am trying to help a buddy solve this same problem in a kimber 1911 and am curious to see what develops.

[lead4me]

See that you already answered my question. Pays to read carefully instead of skimming. Pls carry on.

[243winxb]

Size your bullets to .452" & apply 50/50 alox/bees wax. I am guessing your groove measurement is faulty.

[Russel Nash]

I'm wondering how you're measuring to the half thou

Just curious...

I think our OP said he has tried different lubes, right?

I would give the Johnson Paste Wax a try.

My money is still on the fact that bullets aren't perfectly concentric.

That's where having a sizer of some sort comes in handy.

Do you have any body else's home cast lead boolits you could try?

[BABore]

I'm wondering how you're measuring to the half thou

Just curious...

I think our OP said he has tried different lubes, right?

I would give the Johnson Paste Wax a try.

My money is still on the fact that bullets aren't perfectly concentric.

That's where having a sizer of some sort comes in handy.

Do you have any body else's home cast lead boolits you could try?


The average digital caliper will measure to 0.0005". A caliper is not the best instrument


to measure a round though. A decent micrometer will measure down to 0.0001" and is perfect for boolits.

[StarMetal]

The way I read jonk's measurement is he's going one thousandth to two thousandths over the groove diameter. That would be .001 to .002.

With that said I think you have a really oversized groove diameter for 45 acp in a 1911. I think as others have stated that you have a bad barrel. I agree 100 percent with KSCO, put a good barrel or good match barrel in it and be finished with it. I always measure and modify my expander ball when I get a new die set. If the case is work hardened enough it will sometimes size the bullet down some especially if the alloy is on the soft side. If you're sizing that .001 to .002 over groove which you stated as .453 we're looking at bullets at .454 to .455. I know none of my 45 acp's will accept a cartridge with a bullet that fat.

Get a new barrel, or call the manufacture and talk to them. Just my two pennies.

[caillouetr9981]

Good Bullet - Bad Barrel.

Get a new barrel for this puppy as soon as you can.

Also, if you can, try mixing 1-part 50/50 Plumbers Lead (Solder) with 9-parts WW. Then, lube them with Rooster Red (you'll need to get a heating element, if you don't already have one, but it is definitely worth it).

[inuhbad]

Good Bullet - Bad Barrel.

Get a new barrel for this puppy as soon as you can.

Also, if you can, try mixing 1-part 50/50 Plumbers Lead (Solder) with 9-parts WW. Then, lube them with Rooster Red (you'll need to get a heating element, if you don't already have one, but it is definitely worth it).

I also recently switched to Rooster Lube, and love it! :drinks:

MUCH better than the others I've used (Lyman, RCBS, and Beeswax Homelube).

[Russel Nash]

I've been a millwright now for 10...11 years...setting steam turbines to so many odd thousandths.

I think the last job I was on honing out where two rotors got coupled together we used an "intra-mike" that was good to 10 thousandths.

And I think I have read enough Starret "mikes" in my day...maybe my eyesight is going...especially trying to readd gray on gray tick marks...but really, I only care about the thousandth....or the 3rd place to the right of the decimal.... 0.001"

You must have one of those fancy mikes that has the odometer like read out built into it.

Or it's digital.

:?

[markinalpine]

Or is your crimp die reducing the boolit diameter as the Lee FCD will sometimes do as it irons the case out.

Will somebody explain to me how the Lee FCD will reduce the diameter of a cast booolit if it is used properly? The internal diameter of the carbide ring at the base of the Lee FCD for .45 ACP is 0.475"
Now the Lee FCD, or probably any other manufacturers crimp die can be improperly adjusted to overcrimp the cartridge, and possibly resize a boolit too small, but it isn't because the carbide resizing ring at the base of the die is too small.

Mark [smilie=s:
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Watch out for the fireworks now. :bigsmyl2:

[fredj338]

As I said- I'm using them as cast and the bullet measures 1-2/1000 over groove diameter, depending on what cavity in the mold it comes out of. Bore measures .453 across the grooves, bullets are dropping .454-5.
Did you actually slug the barrel or measure from the muzzle? That is pretty over size for most 45acp. The BE load is pretty slow for ACWW IMO, but every bbl is diff. Lapping might actually have made it worse if it made the bore larger. Certainly trying new bbl. should work, but sucks to buy a cheap 1911 & then make it more spendy w/ a $180 bbl.
I can only suggest working w/ fewer variables. Choose one powder, run it mild to wild, try one bullet alloy, say acww, then try actually sizing them to groove dia. or 0.001" over. If your groove dia. is actually 0.453", I think you are not fixing that w/ alloy, lube or sizing.

[870TC]

Maybe a odd way of thinking here but, how about shooting some of your ammo through someone else's gun, see if your loads lead in their gun.

[HeavyMetal]

Markinalpine:
You've hit the nail on the head with the "Used Properly" line!

It never has been and never will be the carbide ring ( unless made wrong at the factory) that resizes the boolit in the Lee FCD die( pending over sized boolit matched to thick brass) it is the taper crimp adjustment that is applied, in way to many case's, to "hard"!

Many that have been taught to load for a wheel gun, 38 special the most obvious suspect here, have been taught to "roll Crimp". This type crimp can easily be seen even with "experienced" eyes.

Not so with the Taper crimp! If you adjust a taper crimp die until you can actually see the crimp, no matter how slight, you've tweaked your boolit bearing area big time!

While that may be a contributing factor here I still think the barrel is a bit rough but with out pictures it's tough to make a diffinative call.

I like the idea of shooting these rounds in another pistol. If the load leads in 10 to 15 rounds in the OP's pistol it should surely do so in any other pistol if it were a die, or lube, or alloy related issue!

Perhaps a local member is handy to help out?

[223tenx]

Yikes!!! I just bought one of these and haven't had a chance to shoot it yet.

[chris in va]

FWIW, my .002 larger 9mm boolits shoot like **** out of my CZ. A nice gentleman gave me some 38 Special 125 grainers sized at .358 (.003 over bore slug) and they shoot MUCH better, with leading only present in the first 1/4" of the barrel.

Just a thought. Might need a bigger bullet/smaller barrel.

[gefiltephish]

My RIA does not like tumble lube in any form I've tried. Ditto for my XD9. Straight LLA, straight Rooster Jacket, 45/45 LLA/JPW/MS, 50/50 LLA/MS, single and double coats. All with zero success. I switched to a Lyman 450 and the problem went away completely for the RIA, while the XD was much improved. This past weekend I tried tumble lubed.358's in the XD because I don't have a .358 sizer die yet. Still leaded, but seemed to be more accurate.

Maybe I missed something, but the op said that there were rough spots at the muzzle end. Seems to me that if the leading is occurring throughout the rest of the barrel, that roughness is not causing it. If the barrel is genuinely bad, send the gun back to advanced tactical. Excellent customer service.

[jonk]

Thanks guys, I'm going to try 3 things:

1. See if the bullets are truly concentric
2. Section a loaded round and measure diameter of the bullet to see if the dies are squeezing it.
3. If all else fails, buy a new barrel.

I did put about 400 jacketed through this gun at its start. Another 1600? Sounds great but 1600 jacketed bullets cost a lot of money! :)

[243winxb]

Add to you list the most important item IMO. Size your bullets to .452"

[HORNET]

Mark,
If the inside diameter of the carbide ring is .475" and you're using a .452 diameter boolit, then the case wall thickness needs to be .0115" or LESS all along the contact length of the case wall and the boolit. Otherwise, the boolit will be squeezed down. This changes if the carbide ring diameter is smaller (manufacturing tolerances) or if the boolit has a larger actual diameter (sizing die wear, tolerances, different alloy, etc.).
Please note that .38 Special cases intended for factory loading with full wadcutters have very little case wall taper until well down into the case in order for the factories to avoid the same problem on their equipment. OTOH, I had some military .38 cases that wouldn't chamber in a Blackhawk if loaded with a .356" boolit due to the very heavy case walls.
Case wall thickness is rarely considered by handgunners.

[BABore]

Will somebody explain to me how the Lee FCD will reduce the diameter of a cast booolit if it is used properly? The internal diameter of the carbide ring at the base of the Lee FCD for .45 ACP is 0.475"
Now the Lee FCD, or probably any other manufacturers crimp die can be improperly adjusted to overcrimp the cartridge, and possibly resize a boolit too small, but it isn't because the carbide resizing ring at the base of the die is too small.

Mark [smilie=s:
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Watch out for the fireworks now. :bigsmyl2:

There's a couple ways the resizing ring at the die bottom will do it. One is they get it too small to start with. Lee has a real tight handle on their quality control at all times and never screws anything up right? The second is suppose you use Mil brass which is commonly thicker walled. And, suppose you found you need a boolit that is say 0.453. The die is designed for a certain expected casse wall and boolit size. You could very well exceed this and size your boolit down. this doesn't happen too often, but it's something you need to be aware of and look for, especially if a problem should arise.

[Cloudpeak]

Jonk, I'll bet that Arnel or Ivan at Armscor/RIA would fix you up. I'd give them a call. You could also look/post on this forum to see if anyone there can help you:http://forum.m1911.org/forumdisplay.php?f=17

Did you clean the copper "wash" out of your barrel? If not, you might try doing so with some copper solvent and then slicking the bore up with some J-B bore paste.

[Echo]

Well, Jonk, you are sure getting a lot of advice. Not enough, I guess, because I feel like I need to add to the fray.

Really, nothing new, just a +1 for investigating wall thickness/OD of the loaded round. If your boolits are sized .453, and the OD at then mouth is .475, then as has been pointed out before, the wall thickness @ the mouth is .011 over the diameter of the boolit. If the wall thickness before loading is .012, then you are sizing down the boolit .002, to .451, and that's leading territory.

If that is the case, you might try R-P cases - my experience is that they are thinner than others, and might work OK.

New thought. What cases are you using? GI? That could be the problem, with their thicker walls.

[HangFireW8]

Make a dummy. Chamber and eject it smartly.

How does the boolit look? OK or chewed up?

-HF

[markinalpine]

OK folks, let's calm down. Jonk said he isn't using a FCD.
I just object to the tendency of some people to automatically blame the equipment when their results aren't satisfactory.
And please don't try to justify your comments by saying IF this and IF that.
For standard reloads for a pretty much to specification weapon, with the reloading equipment properly adjusted, (and properly made! Yes, I've received equipment from several manufacturers that wasn't entirely up to par, and had to deal with their respective customer service depts to get things corrected).
Now IF you have a weapon that needs some out of specification component, or IF your brass is non-standard, then the standard reloading equipment might not be the best to use.
Mark

[Edubya]

Mark, how about starting your own thread. Hi-jacking is rude, crude and un-called for.
EW

[Char-Gar]

Well, I agree you have a crappy barrel. Some of these bottom line 1911s have them. I had a new Springer GI that leaded and shot 5", 25 yard groups. I changed out the barrel for a Colt bbl and bushing and the groups shrank to 2.5". Leading also went away.

.453 is over spec anyway. A good 1911 barrel should run .450-451 with .452 being a good sizing diameter.

[Russel Nash]

A dumb question for our OP....

Do you have a case gauge....and will your loaded rounds drop right into the case gauge and then fall right back out?

[markinalpine]

Mark, how about starting your own thread. Hi-jacking is rude, crude and un-called for.
EW

Someone else started the blame the equipment hi-jacking. HELLO [smilie=s:
This is apparently an issue of boolit fit, and jonk may have a way out of spec barrel. The FCD issue doesn't really apply because jonk said he isn't using one. So why blame the equipment that isn't even being used?

Mark :coffeecom

ps, still waiting on a set of pin gages to measure cylinder diameters, but will also use them to measure the boolit crushing diameters of the few Lee FCD that I have been using to reload cast boolit cartridges successfully. :bigsmyl2:

[Heavy lead]

Mark, how about starting your own thread. Hi-jacking is rude, crude and un-called for.
EW


Huh?
What would you call the above post?
A hijack of a hijack?
And a rude one at that.

[sdelam]

I had the same problem with my RIA and Lees 230-2R's. Turns out i was over crimping. Ajusted the crimp to just take the bell out, No leading since

Here's a picture of some rounds I pulled with a knetic puller. Notice where the bullets were resized by the crimp.

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m237/sdelam1/Pic1.jpg

[waksupi]

Knock it off, guys. Hijacking is an old and honored tradition on this board.

[markinalpine]

Knock it off, guys. Hijacking is an old and honored tradition on this board.

If it's an old and honored tradition, why knock it off? :bigsmyl2: :kidding:

Mark [smilie=p:

[NSP64]

I had an RIA 45 and it loved my lee 200gr with LLA. I just tightened the case enough to remove the bell after loading. Using lee dies also. I would shoot 200rnds at a time, no leading at all (acww). Did you use pure lead to slug the barrel?