How to get expansion?

[giz189]

Okay guys, help me out here. Have some ideas, but want to hear someone with experience loading cast hp's in 45 acp. Got one of MP's 45-200 moulds, want to get good expansion. Here is what I have tried so far. ACWW with 6.5 grains of Unique largest expansion was to .650 diameter in sand. Is this considered adequate? Now going forward, should I soften my alloy a bit, increase velocity by going up to 7 grs of Unique or ????? I guess I am asking how do you get expansion out of a cartridge that was designed to go slow (800-900fps) with a hard bullet alloy? Can it be done? Have not shot over chrono yet, am planning on that tomorrow, so I don't know what velocity I was getting.:castmine:

[geargnasher]

I do it like this:

EDIT: DETAILS: .45 ACP, Lyman Devastator, ACWW+2% tin for 2-month bhn of 13.5, enough Unique to get 820 fps on a buddy's chrony last year from my Kimber 4" bbl. Not pictured is lubed boolit, I use LLA/JPW. Weight retention was 95%, expansion was 275%. The damage it does to soft things has to be seen to be believed.

[giz189]

I'd settle for that GN, would you care to elaborate a little?

[fredj338]

First, sand is a poor expansion medium. HP are designed for hydraulic expansion, so you need some moisture, the more the better, for best results. Wet phonebooks, newsprint or 1gal water jugs work a bit better for testing. I don't have good luck w/ straight ww. The antimony content causes the alloy to be brittle. A 50/50 mix of lead & ww works pretty well. I also like 25-1 lead/tin mix for a more ductile bullet.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/45-215gr.jpg

[GabbyM]

Big question is expansion in what media. Cats or hogs or in between.

I'm no big fan of expanding hand gun bullets which leaves me in the minority.
It's already a 45 so what's to expand. In a combat situation a 45 is low on penetration already without any handicap.

For small critters a hollow point is the way to go.
Your 200 grain bullet can be loaded to 1,000 fps. Cast from a soft alloy with between 2 ½ and 5 % tin it should do well. Most scrap plumbers lead will fall in their somewhere. WW are hard to find anyway.

[MiHec]

Look here.... (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=67948)

[giz189]

Thanks for the input fellas. I think I am gonna go with 25-1 and see how that works out. Will try shooting something wet next time also.

[yondering]

Also see here: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=55775&highlight=mihec&page=4
I posted some pictures of expansion at different velocities and different alloys with this bullet.

As others pointed out, expansion testing in sand is meaningless. It's not even a decent comparison between two different bullets. Just don't bother.

With the 45-200 bullet, the problem isn't getting enough expansion, the problem is too much expansion, to the point the expanded part breaks/tears off the base. 50/50 WW/pure is fine at 800-ish fps; I'm using 80/20 ww/pure and pushing them a little faster. It's real easy to push these to 1,000 fps, it's only a 200gr bullet.

[geargnasher]

First, sand is a poor expansion medium. HP are designed for hydraulic expansion, so you need some moisture, the more the better, for best results. Wet phonebooks, newsprint or 1gal water jugs work a bit better for testing. I don;t have goo luck w/ straight ww. The antimony content causes the alloy to be brittle. A 50/50 mix of lead & ww works pretty well. I also like 25-1 lead/tin mix for a more ductile bullet.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/45-215gr.jpg

Not sand Fred, very sloppy caliche mud, no rocks. Your velocity/expansion pics are speak VOLUMES about what velocity does, thanks for sharing.

ACWW are ususally way to brittle as you say, but the one in my pic above was part of an experiment to see HOW brittle they can be and still work.

And as for penetration versus expansion in a .45 ACP, it really doesn't matter that much in the long run because even if you shoot someone who is wearing a flak vest with a soft hp, the energy will still be delivered to the target regardless of penetration and I challenge anyone who believes even a drugged-up behemoth will still be a threat after taking one or two of those in the chest.

Just my .02, I like hps more for appearance than function, anyway.

Gear

[fredj338]

Not sand Fred, very sloppy caliche mud, no rocks. Your velocity/expansion pics are speak VOLUMES about what velocity does, thanks for sharing.

ACWW are ususally way to brittle as you say, but the one in my pic above was part of an experiment to see HOW brittle they can be and still work.

And as for penetration versus expansion in a .45 ACP, it really doesn't matter that much in the long run because even if you shoot someone who is wearing a flak vest with a soft hp, the energy will still be delivered to the target regardless of penetration and I challenge anyone who believes even a drugged-up behemoth will still be a threat after taking one or two of those in the chest.

Just my .02, I like hps more for appearance than function, anyway.

Gear
I also have the Dev mold & it does work w/ ww as long as I don't go above 820fps or so IV. Running them @ 850fps, I lose the nose about 1/2 the time. At 900fps, they always fragment just leaving the base to penetrate, which for a SD bullet, isn't all bad.

[jhalcott]

Don't you have to worry about the bullet being TOO soft and leading up the chamber. Or bashing the nose as it slides up the feed ramp??

[sheepdog]

Heres a details page with sizes and pictures of commercials to compare against. Most commericals expand to between 7. and 7.8
http://stevespages.com/jpg/wp-remington-coltgovernment-5-903.jpg http://stevespages.com/jpg/wp-proload-coltgovernment-5-952.jpg

http://stevespages.com/page8f45acp.html

[giz189]

I shot my 45-200hp over chrono the other day and also into a gallon water jug and wet sand as that was all I had. I got an avg vel of 1054fps. I think I will slow it down using one less grain of Unique. Results on the gallon plastic jug were went in the middle of the bottom, bottle lying on the side and came out the middle of the cap and kept on going thru the base of tree roots and dirt of the fallen tree I had it in front of. Bullets shot into wet sand were found in small pieces. Probably was only 15 - 20 feet from both mediums when they were shot. Next boolitts are 25 - 1 alloy and am gonna slow them down a mite. What are some of ya'lls favorite powders for this round, as Unique is a little dirty.

[fredj338]

You are gonna need more than a 1 gal jug of water to stoip most LHP. Three would be a good min., 4 is better. I like Unique in the 45acp for vel you are tlaking about, 950fps or so. Something a bit cleaner burning in the same burn rate would be Universal or WSF.

[yondering]

Power Pistol also works well for full power 200gr 45 ACP loads. You best get over the concern about "dirty" powders though. All of them are dirty.

Like fred said, you need 3 or 4 gallon jugs of water, if that's what you're using. If you drive them too slow for the alloy you're using, and don't get expansion, you'll need more jugs.

[303Guy]

As others pointed out, expansion testing in sand is meaningless. It's not even a decent comparison between two different bullets. Just don't bother.Perhaps. On the other hand, if a boolit does not expand much in sand it surely won't expand in flesh? Then again, a boolit that expands in sand but holds together is going to hold together in flesh! I have compared flat nose boolits with hollow nose (not hollow points - no points involved:rolleyes:) fired into sand and found that hollow nose boolits behave quite differently to flat noses i.e. the hollow noses expand while the flat noses don't. But then, I was using very fine sea sand. (Only for the convenience).

[Butcher45]

I realize you guys aren't about to load and shoot pure-lead Devastators out of your .45ACP's......just adding this as a reference.

I shot a pure lead Devastator at about 750fps shot into three gallon-sized ziplock bags of water leaned-up against wet phonebooks. It blew-up the first two gallon bags, and was stopped in the third when it hit the phonebook (though it didn't put a hole in the last bag). After the shot, water was coming out of the third bag much like a water fountain.

Whether it be saturated phonebooks, or bags of water, the slugs end-up looking like this one.


http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x65/butcher45/DSCN5667.jpg

[yondering]

Then again, a boolit that expands in sand but holds together is going to hold together in flesh!

I disagree with that statement, based on personal experience. Sand does not cause the hydraulic pressure inside a hollow point the way a fluid does.

[giz189]

Power Pistol also works well for full power 200gr 45 ACP loads. You best get over the concern about "dirty" powders though. All of them are dirty.

Like fred said, you need 3 or 4 gallon jugs of water, if that's what you're using. If you drive them too slow for the alloy you're using, and don't get expansion, you'll need more jugs.You are right about that! I have noticed that this new generation of Unique is not as dirty as the older Unique was. I wil probably stick with Unique as I have used it for 35 years in 41 mag 45LC Shotguns and 45 acp.:lovebooli

[JeffinNZ]

From my experience the best way to induce expansion is to marry the subject.....................

[JesseCJC]

From my experience the best way to induce expansion is to marry the subject.....................

hiyooooo

[yondering]

From my experience the best way to induce expansion is to marry the subject.....................


:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:

[303Guy]

I disagree with that statement, based on personal experience. Sand does not cause the hydraulic pressure inside a hollow point the way a fluid does. Interesting that you should say that, yondering. (Actually, I was saying that lack of expansion in sand would indicate lack of expansion in flesh too). Anyway, I have tested very low velocity flat nose and hollow nose in fine, soft sand (maybe that makes a difference) and there was a definate expansion with hollow noses while flat noses did not expand. I'm not trying to promote the use of sand - just saying. (It does help me with testing paper patch disintegration - it's way easier to find the paper fragments in sand. Just seive the sand). I do agree that sand is a poor test medium.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-520F.jpg

That little 'nipple' on the mushroom is the sprue remnant.

A flat nose.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-521F.jpg

This is not proof of anything - just an indication. I did a few tests to try to get the velocities the same (the hollow point being lighter) and the results pointed to the same conclusion.

The sand I use is fine, high shell content sea-sand. It gets even finer when shot into a few times. An observation; there is a wide path of pulverized sand where the boolit traversed. In front of the boolit there will be a 'wad' of pulverized sand that only breaks into dust in the seive. I shall take pics the next time I do tests.

Just found this pic. The L/H boolit was fired into wet rags and the other two into dry 'fine soft sand'.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-462F-1.jpg

I don't remember why there are two 'dry sand' boolits. The middle one (in fragment) may have been a higher velocity or a softer alloy. I'll have to repeat the test!

[yondering]

303guy, I'm not disputing that hollow points will expand in sand. They will. I'm saying that sand doesn't work the same way as fluid to induce expansion, so sand as a test medium does not give you any reasonable comparison to how that bullet would react in a fluid.