What is this telling me?

[outdoorfan]

Shot my Ruger .45 Colt today with the RCBS 45-270-SAA and H110. Shot both 11 bhn & 19bhn boolits. What was interesting is that the best groups came from low charges of 20 & 21 grains for both the hard & soft even though the ignition was inconsistent (huge ES's). Velocity at that level was around 950-1050 fps.

So, what's this telling me. Does it want something like 2400 to really make things shine at those velocity levels reported above?

The other thing was that I didn't get any leading, which this gun is prone to doing at higher (25,000+) levels. I would like to find the slowest powder that will produce a load that will accurately shoot this boolit at the 1050-1100 fps range (and preferrably with softer boolits).

[RobS]

The lower pressures will deform the bullet less so the bullet will be more precise in a matter of sense. A bullet that starts off with lower pressures will not hit the forcing cone with as much force and the entrance into the rifling is easier as well. 2400 would be a better choice in my opinion as it is more forgiving to ingnition and your ES's will be more consistent.

Where are getting your leading at with this revolver?

Also here is a good read for the RCBS 45-270-SAA bullet design.

http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/HL%20246partial.pdf

[anachronism]

Your load seems a bit light to me. H110/296 seems to perform better closer to top end loads. If this is the velocity range you want, you may be better served with 2400 or Unique.

[outdoorfan]

I've read that article. I enjoyed it.

I tried loads up to 25 grains. Accuracy was best at 20 & 21 grains. I know that's low on the scale as far as H110 is concerned.

Unique is out. I've tried that and get terrible leading. I need the slowest burning powder that will provide consistent ignition and mid-range velocities in the 1050-1100 range.

The leading starts in the forcing cone. The throat and bore dimensions are sound.

[giz189]

outdoorfan, know you have probably heard this and aint trying to be smarta$$, but you know 110 and 296 are supposed to be the "same" powder I'm sure. Back when I used a lot of 296, everything from Winchester I read said do not use reduced charges. So, if 110 and 296 are the same, I would think the same thing applied to both of them. Just a thought.

[454PB]

In my Ruger BH, I use Bluedot to reach the velocities you mention, and get excellent accuracy.

[outdoorfan]

I've been reading that Blue Dot is also a favorite for many people. I wonder what the difference is in burn rate between it and 2400? I can see where it is on the burn chart, but I don't think that tells the whole story.

[454PB]

Obviously Bluedot is considerably faster burning than 2400. Perhaps my personal chrono data will help. Using a Lee 255 gr. SWC cast of WW alloy, I've gone as high as 15 grs. of Bluedot for 1200 fps. This load is perfectly safe in my Ruger, and the empties nearly fall from the cylinder on their own, but all disclaimers apply.......and work up from below.

[fredj338]

I've been reading that Blue Dot is also a favorite for many people. I wonder what the difference is in burn rate between it and 2400? I can see where it is on the burn chart, but I don't think that tells the whole story.

They are close, but not identical. BD is still quite a bit faster. I think you'll have good results w/ 2400. I shoot the same bullet. Cast from 50/50 ww/lead, it goes 280gr+. Using 12gr of BD, I get about 975fps form the 4 5/8"RBH. Using 16.5gr of 2400, they are running about 1050fps. YMMV, but accuracy w/ either is quite good.

[outdoorfan]

Thanks for the helpful info. I feel I need to stay on the slow side of the burn chart, so I think 2400 is a better choice.

Another question: What about AA#9? How would that compare to 2400, or is it one of those "six-to-one/half-a-dozen-of-the-other" things?

[HeavyMetal]

Well I'm about to light a fire here with a observation I made years ago.

ES, AKA Extreme Spread, is not something you should use to judge the performance of your load with. It can give you some idea of what's going on in the load but accuracy, dispite a small or wide spread in the ES, is the way to see if your load does what it needs to or not.

So what I would do if I was you is play with other components of the load before switching powder and giving up on H-110.

I will make some suggestions and, as I have no idea how you have asymbled your load, please do not take offense.

Check boolit pull, crimping is good but not if you can remove the boolit easily if you fail to add the crimping stage.

segragate case head stamps, some case's can be much thinner than others and the 45 Colt case is a thin one anyway!

Try a different primer, If you haven't gone to a large pistol magum primer make up 10 or 12 and run them over the chrony and see what you get!

Do the same with different brand names of primers.

And here's the most important suggestion I can make: Change one thing in the load at a time so you can tell if there's an improvement or not based on what you changed in the load!

I also took a look at the Speer manual sitting on my desk and the powder charge you say your using is listed and is in the velocity range your chrony is showing so your not off by much.

Something you may not be aware of is ball powders, particularly WW-296 and H-110, are sensitive to cold weather and if your shooting in a cooler than normal climate this alone may be the reason you have a ES your not happy with and, much more importantly, you will not fix it in cold weather!

If this is the case switch to 4227 until summer comes along.

[outdoorfan]

Well I'm about to light a fire here with a observation I made years ago.

ES, AKA Extreme Spread, is not something you should use to judge the performance of your load with. That's true, except I'm pretty sure it does matter in rifles at longer ranges. It can give you some idea of what's going on in the load but accuracy, dispite a small or wide spread in the ES, is the way to see if your load does what it needs to or not.

So what I would do if I was you is play with other components of the load before switching powder and giving up on H-110.

I will make some suggestions and, as I have no idea how you have asymbled your load, please do not take offense. No problem.

Check boolit pull, crimping is good but not if you can remove the boolit easily if you fail to add the crimping stage. I use Lee dies. I had to hone the seating & crimping dies out so as to not size down the boolits. Case tension is good enough to see the outline of the boolit somewhat, but not enough to see the specific details of where the driving bands are in relation to the lube grooves. I can't pull them out by hand even without the crimp. I put a pretty good crimp on them.

segragate case head stamps, some case's can be much thinner than others and the 45 Colt case is a thin one anyway! All are Starline nickel.

Try a different primer, If you haven't gone to a large pistol magum primer make up 10 or 12 and run them over the chrony and see what you get! I could do that as I have some CCI350's, but I'm skeptical. It has been suggested that the mag primers are not the best choice for consistent ignition EXCEPT in cold weather. Today was 35 degrees.

Do the same with different brand names of primers.

And here's the most important suggestion I can make: Change one thing in the load at a time so you can tell if there's an improvement or not based on what you changed in the load! That's for sure!

I also took a look at the Speer manual sitting on my desk and the powder charge you say your using is listed and is in the velocity range your chrony is showing so your not off by much. Thanks for that confirmation.

Something you may not be aware of is ball powders, particularly WW-296 and H-110, are sensitive to cold weather and if your shooting in a cooler than normal climate this alone may be the reason you have a ES your not happy with and, much more importantly, you will not fix it in cold weather!

If this is the case switch to 4227 until summer comes along.


Here's the data from today's shoot using H110 & WLP's:

20 grs: 955 fps and 160 ES
21 grs: 1051 fps and 113 ES
22 grs: 1103 fps and 73 ES

[runfiverun]

blue dot is affected by the cold weather also.
thats why it isn't used by many people for magnum shotshell loads.
i'd start with 19 grs of 2400.

[buck1]

For the 45LC. Nothing has ever worked for me as good as Unique. In the .45 I just cant beat it, and I have tryed several times...FWIW...Buck

[outdoorfan]

For the 45LC. Nothing has ever worked for me as good as Unique. In the .45 I just cant beat it, and I have tryed several times...FWIW...Buck

I wish! :cry: It's what I have the most of on hand. But my gun is finicky, and Unique makes it lead very badly.

[lwknight]

Sounds like a good candidate to try WSF on. The 270 grain 45 should have just enough sectional density to get WSF up to a stable burn. I have used it in my 44mag with 240 grain boolits. With 8 grains I ge about 850 fps and 10 grains go to 1000 fps.
I'm, not working with a 45 LC but it just sounds like 10-12 grains WSF would be just right.

Normally WSF works best in smaller cases like Autoloaders but can be great in the larger cases if the boolit is heavy enough.

[outdoorfan]

I think that's way too fast for what I'm looking for, but thanks anyway.

[44man]

You need good case tension, don't depend on crimp. Lee dies are not the best for accuracy and is why I use Hornady for all of my revolvers.
For case tension you need a hard boolit, at least water dropped WW's. Anything less will get sized when you seat and as soon as you start to soften the lead you need to expand more to prevent sizing. That always means a faster powder is needed but once you thump a boolit too soon, it will deform or skid if the boolit gets too soft.
My experiments have shown me that with a fast powder I need even harder boolits so playing with fast powders and softer boolits will let you reach a point where you are fighting yourself. This is the point where one gun might shoot a load fair and it falls apart in another gun, one leads like crazy and another won't. Neither will give best accuracy and if you are shooting a bunch of revolvers you need a bunch of dies and a specific load for each gun.
With H110 and 296 will work wonderful with starting loads and a standard primer as long as you have case tension. However, your load is still too light for accuracy for that weight boolit and I feel 22 to 22.5 gr is where it will show it's best.
That PB boolit needs to be 22 BHN minimum and being a Keith style, harder is better anyway. You ARE sizing the boolit when you seat with those soft boolits and the only thing that is starting to make them accurate is the slow powder. If you go to a faster powder you will slump them and skid the rifling to boot.
Personally, I would be using a 25 BHN boolit and more H110.
With the hard boolit you will be able to shoot any powder and load for the best accuracy and will not have to search for a special powder, you can use 231, Unique, Blue Dot or anything else.
You will get a million answers but 11 BHN really needs black powder. :drinks:
I love to start these storms and will get some flak but so far nobody has proven that my ideas are wrong.

[outdoorfan]

You need good case tension, don't depend on crimp. Lee dies are not the best for accuracy and is why I use Hornady for all of my revolvers.
For case tension you need a hard boolit, at least water dropped WW's. Anything less will get sized when you seat and as soon as you start to soften the lead you need to expand more to prevent sizing. How much sizing are we talking about here (from the seating die)? That always means a faster powder is needed but once you thump a boolit too soon, it will deform or skid if the boolit gets too soft.
My experiments have shown me that with a fast powder I need even harder boolits so playing with fast powders and softer boolits will let you reach a point where you are fighting yourself. This is the point where one gun might shoot a load fair and it falls apart in another gun, one leads like crazy and another won't. Neither will give best accuracy and if you are shooting a bunch of revolvers you need a bunch of dies and a specific load for each gun.
With H110 and 296 will work wonderful with starting loads and a standard primer as long as you have case tension. However, your load is still too light for accuracy for that weight boolit and I feel 22 to 22.5 gr is where it will show it's best.
That PB boolit needs to be 22 BHN minimum and being a Keith style, harder is better anyway. You ARE sizing the boolit when you seat with those soft boolits and the only thing that is starting to make them accurate is the slow powder. Actually, my tests with Unique showed that I could get good accuracy before the leading took over. :razz: If you go to a faster powder you will slump them and skid the rifling to boot.
Personally, I would be using a 25 BHN boolit and more H110. Could very well be, but I'm going to resist that as much as possible because of what I want this boollit to do (hunting and HP's). (The MiHec mold that Dale keeps raving about!!) :smile:
With the hard boolit you will be able to shoot any powder and load for the best accuracy and will not have to search for a special powder, you can use 231, Unique, Blue Dot or anything else.
You will get a million answers but 11 BHN really needs black powder. :drinks:
I love to start these storms and will get some flak but so far nobody has proven that my ideas are wrong.

Thanks for your input!

[geargnasher]

Outdoorfan, If you're worried about terminal performance load fast, hard, and switch to something with a huge meplat like some of the fine offerings from Veral. You're already flinging a .45 caliber hunk o'lead, you don't really need expansion to deliver energy to the target. A WFN will shoot better anyway with less nose slump than the SWC designs, and I agree with 44man's take that the RFN/WFN designs with no shoulder step find their way through the forcing cone much better than Keith designs. I've tried it both ways and I'm pretty sure he's right.

If it were me, I'd go for something around 325 grains because it has more driving band area, and more static enertia which helps the H110 get lit.

+++1 on CASE TENSION, crimp is just icing. You need solid, consistent case tension for good ignition. Crimp won't make up for weak case tension.

Also, you might consider switching to solid brass cases for this application since nickel doesn't have the elasticity that good brass does and won't hold the boolit as well.

FWIW,

Gear

[outdoorfan]

Outdoorfan, If you're worried about terminal performance load fast, hard, and switch to something with a huge meplat like some of the fine offerings from Veral. You're already flinging a .45 caliber hunk o'lead, you don't really need expansion to deliver energy to the target. A WFN will shoot better anyway with less nose slump than the SWC designs, and I agree with 44man's take that the RFN/WFN designs with no shoulder step find their way through the forcing cone much better than Keith designs. I've tried it both ways and I'm pretty sure he's right.

If it were me, I'd go for something around 325 grains because it has more driving band area, and more static enertia which helps the H110 get lit.

+++1 on CASE TENSION, crimp is just icing. You need solid, consistent case tension for good ignition. Crimp won't make up for weak case tension.

Also, you might consider switching to solid brass cases for this application since nickel doesn't have the elasticity that good brass does and won't hold the boolit as well.

FWIW,

Gear

I already have a 342 grain (actualy weight) LBT wfn, and I've shot is at 1200 fps on game. BHN was 20+. Granted, my results have been very limited (only a few heads to show for it), but I am not happy with the distance that those animals travelled and/or the time that it took them to die. I am very much in the experimentation stage in this whole thing to find what works best for me, and up to this point I'm not particularly thrilled with the wide flat nose only.

I realize this is a sore subject that many people disagree on (one way or the other). I've read accounts on both sides, and I've come to the conclusion that I at least should try HP's, and MiHec has a great mold he's going to produce.

About case tension: I don't know how else to get it (assuming I don't have it now) than to switch to Hornady dies like 44man suggested.

Thank you for your thoughts.:D

[44man]

Remember any expansion will start to limit penetration with a revolver so you need to keep it low. Keeping the drive bands hard and softening the nose seems to be the best way.
Now if a boolit is heavy enough and driven at the velocity around 1100 to 1200, even pure lead will penetrate and kill very well. The problem is getting them to shoot so you can hit what you shoot at.
You will never dump an animal in it's tracks with a revolver unless the spine, nerves or brain is hit.
Bullets of any kind that do not go through do not have the energy nor will they cut a large entrance hole so blood trails can be non-existent.
Whitworth has taken many pigs and deer and I have killed a pile of deer with the WLN and WFN boolits and I would say the average distance a deer will go is 30 to 40 yards with some making 10 yards and some going as far as 100.
The mistake I made was shooting a WFN too fast, over 1630 fps which lost me a few and others made 200 yards or more. I HAD to soften the boolit and meat destruction was hard to believe yet the deer still made 50-70 yards.
Dropping any animal only depends on what you hit so even when one runs off, if the blood trail is good and you recover the animal, it just does not matter how far it ran. A deer with the heart shot out can make 100 yards easy.
This doe was shot with a hard cast and made about 90 yards.

[outdoorfan]

I shot a smallish black bear (150 pounds) with my heavy wfn at 1200 fps. I was high in a stand, and the bear was only 7 yards in front of me. The shot angle was too steep. Not ideal at all, but it's what I had at the moment I pulled the trigger on the bear that was slightly quartering away from me. I made sure the boolit hit the low side of the opposite front leg. A perfect shot with the angles given to me. The boolit hit the heart on its way through. The bear immediately started spinning around in circles, biting at the exit wound. I shot two more times, and the second shot caught him again in almost the exact same spot. It ambled off into the brush about 25-30 yards away. The brush in these parts in August/September can't be visually penetrated by more than a few yards ahead of your next step.

Anyway, I knew the bear was down, and I could hear it breathing heavily for up to 2 minutes before I could clearly hear it let out its last breath.

I could not find one drop of blood between the spot that I shot it and where it lay. Had that bear gone on a death run of 100 yards or more, I don't think I would have found it in time to spare the meat. Would a HP have killed it quicker, I don't know? But I'm willing to try it out and see for myself.

[runfiveslittlegirl]

i know youv'e read the arguements you need to make your mind up for yourself.
there is a lot of advice and evidence in favor of both.
a straight line penetration and smush is where i go.
especially with a flat nose

[bigboredad]

outdoorfan
I've just started casting and shooting the rcbs 45-270 and have been watching this thread with great interest. I followed what 44man said and water dropped a few and then loaded them with unique since I too was having leading problems with air cooled boolits. I shot the water cooled boolits with unique and I had no leading. I also loaded up some air cooled boolits with 296 and I had no leading with that load either. I didn't have a chance to chronograph these loads and the only accuracy testing was a 8 inch steel plate at about 60 yards and I had no problem hitting it. I hope this is useful

[JIMinPHX]

I don't load .45LC, but in .44 mag, H-110 is THE top performer for me. It gives me 1" groups at 50 yards from a carbine with iron sights & less than 50fps total deviation from 10 shot strings. I get this performance from near top loads. Lower end performance isn't as good. Most of the books say to use magnum primers with that powder, but I've always used plain old WLP & had no trouble.

If you do go with Blue Dot, don't down load too far. BD is another one that works best near the top end. I tried low end loads of BD in a .357 & had some very spooky things start to happen.

[303Guy]

... so far nobody has proven that my ideas are wrong.Your ideas make a lot of sense to me, 44man. I've been having the same thoughts.

[outdoorfan]

I have decided to go a different route with this. After testing some 280 gr. LBT LFN's that another member sent me, I'm probably gonna get me one of those instead of the RCBS version. I can still drill the HP's in for the few that I want for hunting. Those 280 lfn's shot wonderfully with 2400! Now I need to get the forcing cone cut to 11 degrees, as I've been having lead build-up there from some of the loads. The barrel is smooth with no constrictions whatsoever. Cylinder throat to groove diameter is good too. I want to see what that 11 degree cone can do for me.

[bigboredad]

Let us know how the 11 degree forcing cone does I'm very interested in doing this to my 2 blackhawks as well. Good to hear you found a boolit your gun likes