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View Full Version : 457125, First Acquaintance...and a question



BruceB
06-18-2006, 10:38 PM
One of the gents attending the Nevada CB Shoot last month left me a single-cavity 457125 mould to play with. I'm not quite sure if he GAVE it to me, or LOANED it to me, but whichever it is I'm not gonna look this gift hoss in the mouth.

457125 is a heavy roundnose for all the various .45-caliber rifles. The first casting run today was just to see how the mould behaves and what the boolits look like, so I only cast about 100. The mould works very nicely and turns out perfectly filled-out boolits with very little effort (straight WW @ 870 degrees).

Once they'd aircooled, I weighed a random sample of ten rounds...NO inspection, mind, I just grabbed 'em out of the box and schlepped them onto the scale. The heaviest one was 515.8 grains, and the lightest was 514.4.... maximum weight spread of 1.4 grains over ten bullets. Not bad at all, I'd say.

This is a famous old design, but the measurements give me some pause. The four bands all run right at .4585" except the base band (plain-base boolit) which is .460", and that should be OK for my .457" Shiloh barrel. However, the nose diameter just ahead of the "scraper band" is only .446". I don't much like that figure! Anyone using this bullet and finding similar dimensions, and if so, how's it work with the rather skinny nose?? I haven't tried the bullet in the muzzle of my Sharps', or in the throat either, but figured I'd ask about other folks' experiences with casting this design.

BruceB
06-19-2006, 12:28 AM
Tried one of these boolits in the muzzle of the Sharps', and sho' 'nuff, it is a LOOSE fit...no land contact with the nose at all, no friction on entering the muzzle.

StanDahl
06-19-2006, 12:58 AM
My 457125 is a newer mould, just a few years old I believe and it casts out at 0.459" at the bands and 0.449" at the nose, this with a 25:1 lead/tin mix. They weighed in at between 521 and 522.5 grains. Stan

45 2.1
06-19-2006, 06:51 AM
That 0.446" nose is meant for blackpowder use. A lot of load juggling will probably be needed to get it to shoot well. You can always cut a DD band or lap the nose out to 0.450"+ to get an excellent shooter.

SharpsShooter
06-19-2006, 07:08 AM
Bruce,

We have nearly the same measurements on the 457125. The nose on mine is .445. I shoot it in my 75 Sharps and it is fine performer. I recently used it in a lube test for Bullshop and it managed to put 10 shots into an inch and a half group. That is good enough for me. Load it and shoot, you may not have anything to be concerned about.

SS

Thin Man
06-19-2006, 07:50 AM
Bruce,

I used to have a mold in that pattern, until a friend "borrowed" it some 8 or more years ago............... I found that it gave better accuracy from a Trapdoor than I would have evey believed the rifle would produce. No, I don't have my data in front of me at this instant to quote the 100 yard group size, but I would have taken that rifle hunting with that boolit any time. Somewhere along the way I found information that this boolit was the original Trapdoor loading projectile.
I created these boolits with straight wheelweights, air cooled, 50/50 lube, etc. etc. At the time I was experimenting with that combination, it was one of my more successful rifle loads to date. As one of the other members suggested, go ahead and load and shoot that big boy. You may be happily surprised with the results.

Thin Man

High Desert Hunter
06-19-2006, 09:50 AM
I bought that mould for my Ruger #1, it has such a short throat I couldn't get any of the heavier bullets to chamber, this one works right nice. The only problem I have with it, is that it is a low velocity bullet only, Bullshop explained this was due to the skinny driving bands, and the fact that it was really a Blackpowder design. I slowed them down and they shot quite well, mine drop out at 525gr from straight wheel weights.

Dave

Dale53
06-19-2006, 01:21 PM
Lyman has actually made the 457125 over the years with different nose diameters. The "undersize" nose is for black powder. This allows chambering with a black powder fouled chamber. Black Powder is also less likely to cause the bullet to "slump". It can be a superb peformer with black powder.

I loaded up a stiff duplex (smokeless/black powder) load for a friend with this bullet. It was for use in his Shiloh Sharps for buffalo hunting. As I remember, the alloy was 30/1 (lead/tin). The 2000 lb buffalo (Bison) was a 100 yards away. He made a perfect shot broadside shot behind the shoulder. The buffalo hit the dirt at the shot, struggled to it's feet took four or five steps and hit the ground for good. The guide had never seen a big bull taken down so readily with a shot to the side (he was used to modern magnums and didn't realize the efficiency of a truly big bore rifle at modest velocities). The bullet shattered one rib on the way in, took out the aorta and both lungs, shattered a rib on the way out. It was found under the hide. The bullet was saved and it was a perfect mushroom. It retained over 80% of its original weight.

Use this bullet for the purpose intended, with a bullet of the correct alloy, driven at the proper speed and it will definitely do its job.

Dale53

BruceB
06-19-2006, 05:39 PM
Gentlemen, many thanks.

I've been "aware" of this bullet for many years, but just never got around to trying it in any of my rifles.

Now I have that opportunity, and a better idea of what to expect. My intention is to mostly shoot my Sharps' at velocities which reflect the original loadings in the .45-70 cartridge, so your advice is right on the money.

Thanks again.

Buckshot
06-19-2006, 10:21 PM
...............I have NEVER had good luck with skinny noses on bore riders. Ever. This was not with BP and the slugs were WW alloy or better. Not long after I'd gotten my Pedersoli RB in 40-65 I ordered the Lyman 410gr Snover. It dropped with a nose at .398" or some such tiny bit under the .400" bore of my rifle.

Would it shoot? Heck no!

I had a bunch of'em cast up so rather then melt them all down I thought I'd try bumping them to see what happened. First of all they WERE kind of hard, and secondly they WERE kind of longish so bumping was an 'iffy' proposition. I did bend some and some were bumped a bit slaunchwise. I picked out 20 of the best. The only expansion that took place was right there at the turn of the ogive, so it was a kind of wide blurry DD band I suppose :-)

I loaded them up over 25.0gr of H4198 with a dacron wad and a card wad at the boolit's base. They all required a bit of effort to chamber so engraving was taking place. It was hoped that ALL the lands supported the slug. Remeber none of these was really 'right'. They were just less whacked out then the rejects.

When I shot them they actually grouped. I won't suggest the group was noteworthy but at least you could tell they hadn't been shot by someone with their eyes closed. Compared to previous shooting with the slug, it was now compartively matchgrade.

................Buckshot

.

hiram
06-19-2006, 10:37 PM
Paul Matthews writes in 1 of his books he sizes the nose only in a 44 mag FL die. This makes the nose smaller but allows room for fouling to build up as the bullet travels down the barrel. If there is no room, the fouling could pack-up and cause nose distortion.

montana_charlie
06-19-2006, 11:41 PM
However, the nose diameter just ahead of the "scraper band" is only .446".
BruceB,
Does that mould have a two letter code right after the 457125?

I had a short discussion with floodgate on that subject...about this same Lyman design...in this thread...
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=6759&page=2

It seems there are a number of cherries used to cut that cavity, and no two have the same nose diameter.
CM