Long Range with Cast Bullets?

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

Is there anyone on this site who shoots the cast bullets over distances on the order of 500 - 800 yards? ( The Offhand target is at 350 yards )

I'm interested because I have an old bull-barreled M70 in 30'06, receiver sights, that I use over distances like that and I'd be interested in exchanging experiences with other shooters who do the same kind of shooting.

Good morning,
Forrest

[44wcf]

Gentlemen;

Is there anyone on this site who shoots the cast bullets over distances on the order of 500 - 800 yards? ( The Offhand target is at 350 yards )

I'm interested because I have an old bull-barreled M70 in 30'06, receiver sights, that I use over distances like that and I'd be interested in exchanging experiences with other shooters who do the same kind of shooting.

Good morning,
Forrest

We shoot cast bullets out to 500 yards all the time. (weather permitting). Once in a while we can set up for 1100 yards. And once a year we go to Alliance Ne. And shoot out to 1000. All with cast bullets. We shoot single shoot, big bore lever, pistol caliber, military bolt and 22.

[Doc Highwall]

44wcf, I am interested in this also, what caliber and load are you using and what are your come ups from a 200 or 300 yard zero. I am thinking of using a 308 Win. with 311299.

[44wcf]

44wcf, I am interested in this also, what caliber and load are you using and what are your come ups from a 200 or 300 yard zero. I am thinking of using a 308 Win. with 311299.

The class is military bolt. So I am not shooting my 308 with lead. But my 3006 i am using the 311299 with 35 gr H4895. And in my Krag I am also using the 311299 with 18 gr 2400.

[Doc Highwall]

I wonder if I could use my 40X in .308Win. as the military is using them now and mine has a stripper clip slot.

[Frank46]

Forrest, good question as I have a post '64 model 70 match rifle in '06. been sitting in my safe for way too long. I'll have to scope it as I don't do well with iron sights at longer distances. Bubba didn't get to this one. Funny thing, the '06 has always been easier for me to get accurate "J" words to shoot than any 308 that I've ever owned.
Maybe its time I tried out cast boolits in it. Frank

[Marlin Hunter]

I think the Sharps rifles were long range cast boolit shooters, so it can be done.

[303Guy]

I think the Sharps rifles were long range cast boolit shooters, ...Cast, not paper patched? No matter, either way it sounds interesting.

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/79E8B23CAB84AC7/standard.jpg

..........You can do 1000 yds with a muzzle loader too! :-) However the farthest I've ever shot was 600 yards.

.............Buckshot

[lead Foot]

There are alot things going against you shooting at those rangers. 035grs H4895 should pump the 200gr'er @ around 2000fps. You guys have my ear now. Wind might be a big problem so early morning will be best. The mirage is bad at our range and being summer here and at 8.30am it starts. I have started working at 200 meters ~ I can put 10 shots into 3" (most under 2") using 20grs H4227. To go further ~ H4895 is the way to go. I find you have to change your load for each range. One load you might get a lousy group at a 100 metres but at 300 meters you might get a better group. It has to be stable at the range you are shooting at. That's the thoery I'm working on anyway. I'm all ears to here another approach. Good luck.
Lead foot;

[Wayne S]

44 WCF,
You mentioned 22 ?? I'ls be interested in hearing about 22 cast out to 222 yards, ie, molds loads ,ect

[Doc Highwall]

I was looking at the Lyman cast bullet book and with the 311299 you would have to have a muzzle velocity of 2200 fps to be above the speed of sound at 600 yds.

[303Guy]

... with the 311299 you would have to have a muzzle velocity of 2200 fps to be above the speed of sound at 600 yds. Not sure about that. I used JBM to calculate velocity and trajectory using a 63gr semi-point varmint bullet and a MV of 2500fps gave a super sonic flight to just short of 600yds.

[Doc Highwall]

303guy, the Lyman cast bullet book 3rd edition pg 374 gives a B.C. of .377. I do not know how accurate this is but I will will have to believe it until I either shoot it my self at 600 yards or find somebody that has to know. I am shooting the SAECO #315 at 1752 fps mv. and it is supersonic to 300 yards but not beyond. I have already made some jacketed bullet shooters take notice at short range now I want to do it at 600 yards.

[Wayne S]

This brings up an interesting question, for a bullet to be accurate at say 500 yds, do you take an Est. BC for speed loss, then figure what speed will be needed for the bullet to be stable at 500 yds and work backwards for a starting MV ??
FOR an example ONLY;
X bullet is 1.20" long and useing the JMB program X bullet need 1200 FPS to be stable.
X bullet has a BC of .323, useing loading manuals you find a several bullets with BC's from .311 to .325 and on an AVERAGE that loose 300 FPS per 100 yds.
NOW does this mean that we must start our X bullet at{ [5x300] + 1200 }= 2700 FPS ??
:coffeecom:coffeecom

[Doc Highwall]

Wayne S, With 22Lr match ammunition the muzzle velocity is 1030fps to 1080fps so the bullet does not have to go through the transonic stage on is way to 100 yards causing the bullet to shoot erratic and with high velocity you want it to be supersonic all the way to the target. I want to shoot 600 yards with cast boolits so I know that I want the boolit to be going faster then 1120 fps at that distance. Now comes the hard part, most cast bullets have no established ballistic coefficient that we can enter into a ballistic program. We are lucky that some are established like Lyman's 311299 at .377 so using that I played with JMB and it shows that with a B.C. of .377 I will need a muzzle velocity of 2150 fps or more to be above the speed of sound at 600 yards. Now to find a load that will shoot accurately at that velocity for a whole match.

[lead Foot]

Thanks Wayne S ~I new someone with brains could work it out. This is a good strating point. I do have a 311299 mould ~ The only way to find out for sure is do the test. I see speed is a big factor now. It might be a problem getting the 200gr'er up to 2700fps.
Lead foot;

[felix]

Boolit shape can really help matters here, assuming we cannot, or don't want to, achieve 1100+ at the target. It's all about how the boolit reacts going through the barrier. There is an ideal shape that would permit a very low disturbance, but I do not know of the one that would hold accuracy at six hunnert. The boat tail helps condoms immensely, but that would be a no-no design for us as we are not able to make perfect boolits from ignition out through the muzzle. Maybe, just maybe, we should shoot for a muzzle speed less than 1050 and go for a larger diameter boolit, a'la' Sharps typical. ... felix

I would think Forrest would have the answer before we would. Heck, he has been shooting that far and more for 10 years in competition. ... felix

[Wayne S]

Doc,
when I said 22's in my first post the 22's I was refering to were cast 224's. There is a member of the CBA that has an 80 gn. 224, that he shoots in a 1-9 223 Savage. I don't think he's tried it at 200 yds. though

LEAD FOOT, YEP, the only way to really find out is load & shoot including useing the "whisper" concept of starting the bullets at sub sonic speeds and seeing what they do at 200,300,400 ect.

[Doc Highwall]

One thing for sure, the people like Kenny Wasserburger that shoot 1000+ yards are always looking for a boolit that has a high B.C. and is stable. Another thing that is amazing is with the muzzle velocity of the black powder guns with their heavy boolits is how little velocity they lose at 1000 yards vs a 30 cal condom bullet.

[sheepdog]

Alot of the 45/70 guys shoot a 1000 yards easily with cast boolits. Makes a sick loud crack I hear when it hits a steel plate.

[44wcf]

44 WCF,
You mentioned 22 ?? I'ls be interested in hearing about 22 cast out to 222 yards, ie, molds loads ,ect

I am talking 22 rimfire. We shoot 100-150 and 200 yards.
How ever I am working on a cast load for my 223 but have made it to the range yrt (weather)

[44wcf]

I was looking at the Lyman cast bullet book and with the 311299 you would have to have a muzzle velocity of 2200 fps to be above the speed of sound at 600 yds.

Last summer we had a 8'x8' target at 1100 yards. It was for practice with our 45-70's before we went to Alliance Neb. Just for grins my pard and I tried shooting at it with our Springfield 3006.Using the 311299 and 18 gr of 2400, I was surprised at how easy it was to hit.

[fecmech]

If you are shooting at known ranges with cast bullets why would you want to launch over supersonic?? I'm not being facetious, I'm curious (and to add to that I'm not a long range rifleman). Looking at ballistic charts and wind drift charts as soon as you go over 1100 fps your wind drift increases dramatically and does not return to the 1100 foot second levels till you reach 2000-2200 fps. I understand increasing velocity to flatten trajectory but over known ranges I wouldn't think trajectory was an issue. It would seem to me 1100 fps would make for a gentler launch, wind drift would be less, passage through the sound barrier not an issue, what am I missing?

[FAsmus]

44wcf;

Yes; I've seen your posts before ~ and ~ I've been to Alliance for one of the "Buffalo Rifle" matches as well.

I know you folks do it well down there but what form does your "bolt rifle" class consist of?

Good evening,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Doc;

I got bored with shooting just the "375 or larger" single shots last year and moved my old bolt rifles to the fore-front.

My best two rifles are the M70 in 30'06 with 26" bull barrel fed the HT RCBS 30-180-SP over a very conventional 21 grains 4759 and an old M1891 Argentine in full military wood except with Redfield front and tall-staff Lyman rear. This rifle is amazing shooting the HT 314299 over 38 grains 4350.

These rifles and loads will stay with the "purpose-built" single shots unless the wind begins to blow beyond a certain level.

Also on my firing line is a 7.5x55 K31 and a Type 38 Jap rebarreled to 7.62x51.

"Come ups"? Wazat?

Good evening,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Doc;

Sure the 40X is a fine item. My Jap in 7.62x51 likes a load I pulled out of TFS - 29 grains Varget under the HT RCBS 30-180-SP.

Good evening,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Frank46;

Certainly - put the rifle on the firing line.

Receiver sights are my only way to go since, if you stick with a scope, you'll soon run into limitations of adjustment for elevation and quite possibly windage. This is still do-able but you have to resort to things like tapered scope bases for the longer distances.

Good evening,
Forrest

[w30wcf]

I have found Lymans 311284 to work well @ 1,000 yards just as it did for rifleman with their .30-40's back in the days of yore. It is a well balanced bullet and does not seem to be affected in the transition to the subsonic zone.

I'm shooting them in my Teddy Roosevelt commmorative rifle in .30-30. Slow burning H414 pushes them from 0 to 2,000 f.p.s. in 26" . My target is "Homer" the 1,000 yard steel buffalo. If I do my part, ole T.R. will do his.:-D

The 311299 may work as well but I haven't tried it yet. The Old West 198 works pretty well also (205 grs.w.w + 2% tin H.T.)

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/004.jpg

Homer is the white figure close to the top of the photo
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/RidgwayJune2007.jpg

w30wcf

[FAsmus]

Marlin Hunter;

"I think the Sharps rifles were long range cast boolit shooters, so it can be done."

F - Of course they do! And you must certainly have heard of the long range matches all over Montana, N & S Dakota and Nebraska!

That is semi-old news. I'm trying to address things long the lines of relatively conventional bolt-gun shooting, not the specialized single shot game.

Good evening,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Buckshot;


..........You can do 1000 yds with a muzzle loader too! :-) However the farthest I've ever shot was 600 yards.

Sure; there is always at least one front-loader on the line each year at Quigley. They do fairly well too.

Good evening,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Lead Foot;

"There are alot things going against you shooting at those rangers... "

Yes, that is true enough, but there-in is the fun too.

I shoot over these distances and I can tell you for sure and for certain that changing loads for different distances is futile; don't even try it.

The accuracy criteria is semi-loose - all you have to have is a load that will shoot into 1 1/2 MOA BUT! Do it all the time; close or out there at 1000 yards, hot or cool, rain or hotter'n hell.

Mirage? Certainly we have it too up in the northern half of the world - you simply have to learn where to hold for mirage drift/displacement.

Good evening,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Doc Highwall and 303 Guy;

I was looking at the Lyman cast bullet book and with the 311299 you would have to have a muzzle velocity of 2200 fps to be above the speed of sound at 600 yds...

Well, there just doesn't seem to be any way to keep things supersonic all the way out there. A fellow has the choice of shooting sub-sonic in the first place ( very tough ) or simply living with the transition drift.

Good evening,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Fecmech;

If you are shooting at known ranges with cast bullets why would you want to launch over supersonic?? ....

The biggest problem here is getting a load that will provide you with something less than 10 ft/sec Standard Deviation, shooting smokeless powder in a 30 caliber at less than 1100 ft/sec. A load that will not give you as good or less than this SD will simply not do well because it'll show high/low impacts at long range that you will never be able to overcome. I submit to you the difficulty in building such a load!

The Black Powder boys are as successful as they are because they can do this with the typical 45/70 shooting black ~ and do it easily.

Good evening,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

44wcf;

Last summer we had a 8'x8' target at 1100 yards. It was for practice with our 45-70's before we went to Alliance Neb. Just for grins my pard and I tried shooting at it with our Springfield 3006.Using the 311299 and 18 gr of 2400, I was surprised at how easy it was to hit.

~ Now you're talking!

Keeping in mind of course that 8x8 is pretty darn big, even at 1100 yards. For example the 1000 yard Championship target at Forsyth is 4x4 and the tie-breaker 4x4 has the corners cut off! Here in Sheridan we use the same 4x4 steel for 834 yards and the 1000 ~ backing the firing line off the additional 166 yards to get the distance.

Good evening,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

w30wcf;

I have found Lymans 311284 to work well @ 1,000 yards just as it did for rifleman with their .30-40's back in the days of yore. It is a well balanced bullet and does not seem to be affected in the transition to the transonic zone.

I'm shooting them in my Teddy Roosevelt commorative rifle in .30-30. Slow burning H414 pushes them from 0 to 2,000 f.p.s. in 26" . My target is "Homer" the 1,000 yard steel buffalo.


That is the first lever gun I've seen working at the 1000 yard distance. ~ I do wonder though how the high tang sight works with the bolt-throw? Do you have to lay the sight down every shot?

Good evening,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Sheepdog;

A lot of the 45/70 guys shoot a 1000 yards easily with cast boolits. Makes a sick loud crack I hear when it hits a steel plate.

~ Nope!

When your bullet strikes that steel at 1000 yards it makes the most wonderful sound of all; the sound of a HIT! and by the way we have a CB radio behind the target with the receiver behind the firing line so as to even hear it when the wind is blowing to any extent.

Good evening,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Doc Highwall;

One thing for sure, the people like Kenny Wasserburger that shoot 1000+ yards are always looking for a boolit that has a high B.C. and is stable.

F- Who is Kenny Wasserburger?

Another thing that is amazing is with the muzzle velocity of the black powder guns with their heavy boolits is how little velocity they lose at 1000 yards vs a 30 cal condom bullet.

F- Sure.

The best bullet of all is the biggest one you can bear to sit behind. Mine happens to be a 700 grain 50 caliber - accurate, stable, a winner but pretty much hell to shoot very much. Hence the 30!

Good evening,
Forrest

[303Guy]

Receiver sights are my only way to go since, if you stick with a scope, you'll soon run into limitations of adjustment for elevation ...Mmmmm .... Thanks for that. I've just found a use for my LongBranch No.4 Lee Enfield! Unfortunately, it does not have windage adjustment.

FAsmus, interesting comment on wind drift and sub-sonic. I do have a limitation on velocity with my chosen boolits - I can't go too slow or the patch won't come off properly.


I'm shooting them in my Teddy Roosevelt commorative rifle in .30-30. Slow burning H414 pushes them from 0 to 2,000 f.p.s. in 26" . And combustion rate is consistant enough for long range accuracy? What's the weight of that boolit? (Maybe I could polish out that No.4's bore enough to shoot plain cast!)

Interesting postings - thanks!

[paul edward]

I had one of those 1891 Argentine Mausers with the 31 inch barrel. Wonderfully accurate rifle with 311299 boolits. Favorite loads were 25 Grains of HiVel #2 or 21 grains of 2400. When this rifle was stolen, I replaced it with a 1909 Argentine that was much less satisfactory. The7.65x53 was an amazingly advanced cartridge for 1889. It will do anything a .308 Winchester can do.

PED

[FAsmus]

303Guy;

You say: Thanks for that. I've just found a use for my LongBranch No.4 Lee Enfield! Unfortunately, it does not have windage adjustment.

F- I have a Longbranch too and I have used it over the long range targets we have here in my town. The only change I made in the rifle was addition of the "Match" sights the military used on that rifle which does have windage. I forget exactly where I got the sight at this moment but they are a legitimate sight made for the rifle by Enfield. You have to drill one hole in the receiver (simple) and it fits right on, replacing the issue battle sight.

303guy; Interesting comment on wind drift and sub-sonic. I do have a limitation on velocity with my chosen boolits - I can't go too slow or the patch won't come off properly.

F- I have done some PP shooting with a 40 caliber rifle. The paper came off reliably at speeds around 1250 - I can't speak to anything slower.

303guy; And combustion rate is consistent enough for long range accuracy? What's the weight of that boolit? (Maybe I could polish out that No.4's bore enough to shoot plain cast!)

F- The 303 will do just fine given a bullet big enough for the barrel on each individual gun. Mine likes bullets on the high-side of good: 0.315. Fortunately my old Ideal 311299 casts just that big at 205 grains with GC.

Good morning,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Paul Edward;

This M1891 was found standing in a barn out in Lusk, Wyoming back in 1982 for free. It was neglected, bore hopeless. I bought a "new" issue barrel from a fellow in Shotgun News for $3.00 screwed it into the receiver and have been amazed ever since by the accuracy it delivers. Just wonderful stuff and the wood remains full "as issued" ~ why change since it works so well already?

Not only that but this $3.00 tube isn't even symmetrical ~ one groove being 0.3130 and the other 0.3140. Custom-cut no doubt by some Berliner in Germany back in 1900 ..

Since the rifle was so accurate I up-graded the sights: I made a shrink-on band to replace the issue front sight. This band has the dovetail cut into its top, suitable for mounting a Redfield aperture front sight. It took some time to locate a tall-staff Lyman receiver sight but it was well worth it. The bolt is unaltered straight. Trigger is issue but a good crisp two-stage.

I messed around with modified 30'06 brass for awhile but these days I shoot legitimate 7.65x53 brass from GRAF.

Good morning,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

Just a word here about shooting at less than the speed of sound;

We all kind of use the 1100 ft/sec number as our definition for this but always remember this is the number at sea-level on a "standard" day. That is 59 degrees at 29.92 Hg. ( I forget the humidity ) I never flew anything that could go faster than sound so I don't know the numbers for computing the speed of sound at different altitudes but;

At anything hotter or higher than "standard" the speed of sound is decreased. Another difference is called "density altitude" or the difference between actual elevation and the real thickness of the air. ~ remember the old Creedmore boys with their wet & dry thermometers and barometers? Well, that is what its all about.

Here in Sheridan for example we don't much think about shooting until its 40 degrees or more outside. As it happens this is very close to the "standard" temperature for our elevation of 4000 feet, which is 41 degrees.

At the Forsyth range shooters typically get the elevations set for the distances on their sights in the cool of morning. By the afternoon, when comes time to shoot the 781 yard "Buffalo" at 90 degrees or hotter they're amazed to find their first shots miss over the top of the steel by FEET. This is density altitude in spades.

Good morning,
Forrest

[Doc Highwall]

FAsmus, if you do a search here and on the Shiloh Rifle forum you will find that Kenny Wasserburger loves shooting his Shiloh 1874 45-110's at long range with paper patch boolits at ranges up to one mile. He has won matches and set records and knows what he is talking about and not afraid to share information.

[FAsmus]

Doc Highwall;

OK - I do admit I've heard of him.

My problem is ( if it really is a problem ) that I've never seen him on the firing line and certainly never at the awards ceremonies at Quigley or the Montana 1000 yard Championship. ~ I guess I could've missed him somehow ~

Good morning,
Forrest

[44wcf]

44wcf;

Yes; I've seen your posts before ~ and ~ I've been to Alliance for one of the "Buffalo Rifle" matches as well.

I know you folks do it well down there but what form does your "bolt rifle" class consist of?

Good evening,
Forrest

I don't quit understand your question, but we allow almost any older military bolt action rifle. !903-1903A3- 1917- Krag-Mousers(spelling) and others I can't think of at the moment. We shoot 300-400and 500 yards. Lead bullets only gas checks are allowed.

[FAsmus]

44wcf;

Yes, you got it right. I assume the old military arms are all limited to "as issued" sights? or are there some classes where "Modified Iron" or "Modified Scope" such as the CBA has defined available?

If sights are limited to "As Issued" I guess I'll have to bring along my M1903 and the Camp Perry tool.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[44wcf]

44wcf;

Yes, you got it right. I assume the old military arms are all limited to "as issued" sights? or are there some classes where "Modified Iron" or "Modified Scope" such as the CBA has defined available?

If sights are limited to "As Issued" I guess I'll have to bring along my M1903 and the Camp Perry tool.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

Some of the guys are modifying them some what. Some are putting the mo-jo on the mousers. And I think one guy has a Lyman front sight. But we try it discourage it as much as possible. We are a small club but like to thing we have the best long range in Kansas.

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Yup, shoot single shot rifles in 45/70, 40/70 at the long ranges with spitzer Boolits ,
500-550gr ...if you like long range shooting with Sharps and or other rifles or replicas... the NRA sponsers shoots and there are long range championships at the Range at Raton NM....I don't shoot .30cal much past 600yds....the big bores rule in long range with Cast...IMHO

[lead Foot]

Has anyone shot a MOA group 500 meters or more with 30cal cast boolit's ~ if not
I would be a great challenge and very interesting to see and hear the results.
Lead foot;

[w30wcf]

w30wcf;
.....That is the first lever gun I've seen working at the 1000 yard distance. ~ I do wonder though how the high tang sight works with the bolt-throw? Do you have to lay the sight down every shot?
Good evening,
Forrest

Forrest, The bolt clears the sight by about 1/8" so I don't have to lay the sight back when ejecting the shell.

303guy,
The bullet weighs 222 grs. in w.w.+2% tin alloy (H.T.) with the gas check on board and shoots well in the '94.
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Vintage%20cartridge%20boxes/311284a.jpg

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

Has anyone shot a MOA group 500 meters or more with 30cal cast boolit's ~ if not
I would be a great challenge and very interesting to see and hear the results.
Lead foot;

Lead Foot,
Back in the 1980's when I was developing a heavy .30-30 bullet loading for 100% positive knockdown on the 55# steel rams I was looking for a bullet with a reasonable b.c. to retain more velocity @ 500 meters. I came up with the Lyman 301620 paper patch mold which I modified to conventional form by opening up the last 3 driving bands to .311. It weighs 225 grs. in w.w.+2% tin (H.T.)

This bullet shot great @ 100 yards with 5 shot groups running 1 m.o.a. and less from my Remington 788 .30-30 using 748 powder. I then tried it at 500m (547 yds.) on a steel ram swinger. Once I got the right sight setting, I was a bit astonished when the 5shot group went into 4.7". I was happy indeed!

I have not grouped it at that distance since then, preferring to shoot it at standing steel animals. It seems to arrive at the spot where the crosshairs are when the rifle fires. What more can anyone ask.....:-)
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Vintage%20cartridge%20boxes/311620.jpg

w30wcf

[Doc Highwall]

w30wcf, it looks like I am following what you did in the 1980's. What was the muzzle velocity that you achieved with the modified 301620.

[lead Foot]

Most excellent w30wcf. Gotta give it a go. 4.7" group Wow good shooting~well done.
Lead foot;

[w30wcf]

Doc,
Velocity for the 225 gr. bullet ran 2,165 f.p.s. from the 788's 22" barrel with a close to max load of 748. No doubt the pressure was in the 50,000 CUP range (not for leverguns). I also shot some at lesser velocity in the 1,500 - 1,800 f.p.s. range and they shot fine as well.

Lead Foot,
Thank you for the kind words. Probably couldn't do it again though......

w30wcf

[FAsmus]

44wcf;

That sounds fair. If I ever get the travel bug again do the drive down there I'll post you to find out when such a match might be going on.

Good morning,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Slow Elk 45/70;

True, the big bore does rule in cast shooting at long range. However! The 30s are ever so much easier to cast and shoot that they make excellent recreational fodder for practice without so much work. Besides - it is all about condition judgment and believe me a 30 is really going to move around out there, giving you much more insight about the problems of hitting.

Good morning,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Lead Foot;

Has anyone shot a MOA group 500 meters or more with 30cal cast boolit's? ~ if not It would be a great challenge and very interesting to see and hear the results.

F- I have not with a 30 but I can tell you for sure that shooting group solo @ 500m is tough even with a well made load and big bore rifle. The problem is that you can't see the holes - even in the white sometimes as the slightest mirage makes them invisible.

This shooting season I plan on teaming up with a shooting friend. Him at 385 yards behind the berm with a radio and scope, me on the firing line shooting at the 500 m target and listening to him tell me about hits.

Good morning,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

w30wcf;

Nice shooting 30WCF!

Forrest

[Doc Highwall]

w30wcf, that is great! That looks like something I could use in my Remington 40x with the 27.25" barrel. I wonder how my long barrel would do with the amount of lube that the boolit holds. I am shooting the SAECO #315 with all the lube grooves filled with Bull-shops NASA lube for 100's of shots with no leading and excellent accuracy but the boolit does not have the B.C. that I am looking for 600 yard shooting that your modified 301620 has.

[44wcf]

44wcf;

That sounds fair. If I ever get the travel bug again do the drive down there I'll post you to find out when such a match might be going on.

Good morning,
Forrest

If that happens be sure to contact me before you leave. On off days we have been known to shoot almost anything.

[lead Foot]

Doc;
Good point about the lube. I thought about putting liquid Alox along with Felix. I might use full lino with 4% tin. I should be able to get the 200gr~er up to 2200fps. I'm in New Zealand for a week so I wont be able to work on it for few weeks. Good luck all.
Lead foot;

[Doc Highwall]

Lead Foot, I do not think adding more tin to Linotype will do much as tin adds little to the hardness once you get pass 3%. I think my first choice would be to use WW with some Linotype added and heat treat to get a harder boolit. I think that the 301620 mould that w30wcf modified that has the grooves on the bore riding section that were meant to hold the paper patch on will hold a small amount of lube without lowering the ballistic coefficient like conventional lube grooves. Look at the picture in post #52 and you will see the grooves that I am talking about.

[lead Foot]

Thanks for the reply Doc, I will add ww's and heat treat. I only have the Lyman and Lee 200gr mould so I'll try both.:drinks:
Lead foot;

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

I was hoping for some response about post #43 regarding density altitude and long range shooting. Ah well ..

Perhaps a few words about sights might be of interest to the membership so here is one way to enable your rifle to reach out that much further than normal.

The tall tang sight is typically the answer in the single shot game but for a bolt gun things like that don't work out. It would be nice if a fellow could find tall-staff receiver sights these days but they have been out of production for a long time.

I was fortunate enough to find a good Tall Staff Lyman 48 for my M1891 Argentine but so far have not found one for the M70. Instead I have only an old Lyman hunter sight with the short staff and screwdriver-driven adjustments. In order to get the necessary elevation I have made an extension for the peep aperture. This is a simple piece of steel drilled on the bottom such that I may attach it to the regular hole intended for screwing in a peep aperture. This extension has two holes drilled & tapped for the thread size of the peep aperture suitably high enough to allow me to extend the elevation of the sight staff by two increments, allowing me to shoot at normal distances with the extension removed (simple) pick up the first distance on the silhouette range at 350 yards with the first hole in the extension as the sight is lowered to its lowest capability and then keep going on out to the 670 yard target. Then as it is once more at its maximum height I move the aperture to the highest hole in the extension, which enables me to reach the 834 yard distance and even out to 1000 yards.

This is all kind of predicated on the load I have selected for shooting at long range. This is the simple old combination of 21 grains SR 4759 and a 190 - 200 grain bullet. The load is fairly slow and needs lots of sight elevation in order to get on target. ~ The Argentine, shooting a hotter load of 4350 does just fine with no help.

Good evening,
Forrest

[303Guy]

I was hoping for some response about post #43 regarding density altitude and long range shooting. Ah well ..I took note of it - it's new and interesting to me. :roll:

[Frank46]

Forrest, google gary fellers in texas. Last I looked he had a bunch of 125 and 150 long slide lyman 48's for sale. that was some time ago, but with the economy the way it is they may be still there. Frank

[FAsmus]

Frank46;

Thanks very much - I went there and sure enough he has a very impressive stock of sights.

I'll contact him during the coming week for sure.

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[Frank46]

Forrest, hope he has what you need. Think you would need either the 125 or 150 lyman 48. Or see if he has a good redfield international. But since my iron sight knowledge is limited you'd be the better judge as to what you will end up with. Glad
to have helped. Frank

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

Today was the first day in ages that it warmed up to 50+ degrees such that pleasant shooting was once again possible.

I had 100 rounds loaded for the opportunity but I usually only load 70 or so. This time I had the whole box loaded because I'd decided to retire the old lot of cases after 87 reloads each and start out with fresh Remingtons. Now 87 loads each really isn't that many but the cases had seen service in full-power jacketed shooting which had, over time, loosened the primer pockets.

I had lost my sight elevation chart for the distances up there but I remembered that at the 2nd hole in the extension + 2 minutes was the setting for the 350 yard target .. Things worked out, hits were made right along as I moved out through the 395 yard diamond, to the 440 yard bear to the 470 yard tiny square and the 502 yard small square. Then a shooting buddy showed up with his 45/90. He was just in time to share the spotting duty. With him spotting for me and me for him we worked out through the 552 yard buffalo, the 587 yard big diamond and the 606 yard bull.

At each distance I found it necessary to add about 2 to 3 minutes of elevation to get on, then, after the bull came the chicken at 648 yards and it was necessary to add 7 minutes for just the additional 42 yards of distance. I figure that somewhere between the two targets the bullet transitioned to sub-sonic and during that phase of flight the additional drag required the bigger elevation increase.

After the chicken came the big round at 670 yards and that only needed the more typical + 3 minutes of elevation to get on.

By this time I noted that things were going especially well, especially in comparison with my friend's 45/90 purpose-built single shot ~ he was having trouble, even falling behind my little ol' small-bore in numbers of hits.

At the longest distance easily available, 834 yards, I transitioned to the #3 hole in the sight extension, lowered the staff back down to + 3 minutes and worked on getting hits on the big square. Things at that distance are harder for the 30 because the light little slugs really begin to feel the wind, while the 535 grain 45s just hang right in there. Besides, the 30s only make the smallest little dings on the steel, hard to hear, and little pin-pricks of metal on the black iron compared to the big splashes of the heavies. Hits and misses are tough to see and it is pretty important to have a reliable fellow on his scope to help spot them.

Even so things went well .. until the wind came up more yet. I still had enough windage in the sight to get over there but since we were getting hits so easily on the 4x4 steel it was decided to move over the the 2x2 steel diamond set at the same distance. Here the 30 fell apart; there was no way I could see the change in condition well enough to adjust for it. So the 30s would land just a little left, or just a little right of the target. And, if my follow-through were the slightest bit inconsistent high-low misses came right along too. ( all shooting being done off the cross-stick rest ). The 45/90? Well, he did just fine on the 2x2 .. and let me know all about it too.

None-the-less it was an outstanding day on the range.

Good evening,
Forrest

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Yup, I like my 45/70's for long range work out to [606yd] with cast and BP, I don't personally like to be banged around by the larger 45's. I do use 38-55's off-hand and for closer shooting.

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

It has been a long time since this thread was up-front but some shooting has been done with the M70 and I thought I'd post and see if anyone else has been up on the firing line, doing some long range shooting;

Over the year since the thread was active I found and bought a tall-staff Lyman 48 and put it to work on the M70. The sight is a fine piece of work, only needing me to make an elevation index piece for it to be as good as new. The extension I made and was using on the old Lyman 66 fit it just fine too. I did work up all-new numbers for elevation but nothing (at first) beyond the 834 yard distance. I thoroughly enjoy the target knobs which freed me forever from the screw driver version of sight adjustment.

I got out the M70 this last Tuesday the 28th of June loaded with my conventional 21 grains 4759 the RCBS 30-180-SP and took it up to our 1000 yard firing line. One of the big-bore single-shot boys who was on hand made a few disparaging remarks about "smallbore rifle shooting" but I didn't care. I just installed the peep aperture in the highest hole of my receiver sight extension, noted the previous longest distance my sight-setting card had (834 yards) added an estimated additional elevation of 30 minutes up, cranked in some windage and fired away from the cross-stick rest at the 4x4 steel steel target.

The distance of 1000 yards allows a shooter to fire and then move almost casually to his spotting scope and - wait for it - see his bullet arrive on the target. My first shot was a miss 6 inches off the steel @ 9 o'clock. Another round dropped low due to the "first shot high out of a cold, clean barrel" syndrome and then, adjusting, I got steady hits.

The little 30 shot very well and it was lots of fun. Unfortunately nobody including me could see where on the steel I was hitting – the little pin-prick hits simply don't show up at all from 1000 yards. Not only that but the sound is faint at best and silence has to be maintained on the line in order to hear the little "tink!" at all. It was a good day for sure and I plan on sitting down solo at 1000 much more frequently in the future now that I have my #1 bolt gun ready to go any time I please.

I didn't wind up shooting anywhere nearly all the 77 rounds I had loaded: It was getting way too hot by noon – it must have been 78 degrees! And besides, I had an afternoon full of domestics to address. So I came home.

Come on you long range shooters; tell us some stories!

Good evening,
Forrest