Copper residue in barrels

[Pirate69]

I have read on a number of occasions the suggestion to clean the barrel of copper before starting to shoot lead boolits. I am assuming that leading occurs on the copper easier than on the bare barrel steel. I also see posts talking about showing jacketed bullets between lead boolit sessions.

I have been engaging is the copper removal approach. Now I am a little confused as to the total benefit. Is this overkill? Does it make any difference if you shoot one type followed by the othr? Is is a good idea at certain velocities and no effect at others? I guess I have been following the copper removal approach without understanding why? Anyone care to educate me? Thanks.

[dragonrider]

It is my contention that when starting with as clean a barrel as possible when going from boolits to bullets or bullets to boolits removes one variable in your search for performance. .

[blackthorn]

In the end your firearm will let you know. If you clean all the old copper-mixed-with-carbon out first you are starting with a barrel you know is clean. Then, later you can fire a few jacketed to see what difference there is (if any). Some firearms will eat both typs of bullets with no problems and some will not. Start with a totally clean barrel and your gun will soon let you know.

[Ben]

All cast boolit shooters that I've ever been around feel that the bore must be free of copper. Is there a definitive scientific study on this subject ? If there is, I've never read it. I continue to feel a barrel needs to be clean and free of copper to maximize its performance with cast boolits.

[lwknight]

Any kind of fowling is bad. Without details I would think that there would be very little copper fowling in most guns if cleaned once in awhile. If there is copper fowling then it probably would cause leading to accelerate. And you cannot clean leading by shooting copper on top of it. You just iron it in to be even harder to remove. Shooting copper in a badly leaded barrel could damage the barrel.

I have alternated back and forth with no ill effects but, the barrel was and stayed relatively clean from start to finish. A slight copper coloring is not per say fowling. It may just be a thin coating and it will turn green over time if not cleaned out. I can't say that this hurts anything either.

[1Shirt]

Kind of agree with Ben. At least that is the way tradition has it, and I like tradition. I also would like to see a definative study on the subject if it exists. That said, think much depends on the rifle (and I think all rifles are female), quality of bore, etc.etc.etc.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[Shiloh]

Lead will bond with copper quite easily. I the boolit doesn't fit the bore, or you get gas blow-by
it bonds with steel pretty easily also.

I agree with both Dragonrider and Ben.

Shiloh

[405]

Pretty much agree with all above. Seems logical that a thin wash of either type won't have too much affect. The BIG BUT is there seems to be plenty of proof and documentation about the damage potential in the situation where a Jbullet is run over the top of a large accumulation of lead. The "naw, I've never seen it" opinions are anecdotal and offer no proof it won't happen. I clean often and just avoid that potential. I've never damaged a bore/barrel by keeping it clean.

[felix]

1Shirt, the study as normally thought of would be sorta' useless because the result would depend upon the mutual consistency of the alloys used to make the barrels and projectiles. What we do know, however, is that lead/tin/antimony is closer to copper/zinc than it is to iron/chromium/nickel within the atomic chart. Welding/accumulation is naturally easier amongst the materials which are chemically closer together in terms of their chemical attributes. The application of a bearing composition unlike either of the barrel and projectile would seem appropriate, and does indeed aid in keeping the gun-system materials separated. So, In practice, we have three base material compositions: lead, copper, steel, with another injected separately for an extraneous bearing (lube: moly, wax, etc.).....Not to mention the additional effects of combustion products. That would be as a fifth variable in the equation. Much simpler to let Mr. Gun dictate what he wants as opposed to a scientific analysis. ... felix

[DLCTEX]

Mike Venturino in a recent article said he didn't find a difference. I'm sure he didn't shoot with heavy copper fouling, though. I don't clean out copper before shooting cast, but after a session of prairie dog shooting consuming several hundred rounds I'm going to clean out copper before the gun is put away, or the next day at least.

[Doc Highwall]

I agree with Dragonrider, Ben and, Shiloh. I look at it this way, when loading pistol cartridges with steel dies you have to use a lube because of the friction and when using carbide dies you do not need lube, why? Because of the hardness and lubricity of the carbide, well the steel barrel has more lubricity then the copper fouling which causes a variable as mention above. I will not shoot a gun for extreme accuracy with out making shure that all of the jacket fouling is removed.

[prs]

Lead really does not form easy bonds to copper or to steel. But (or should it be a BIG BUTT) tin does bond to copper easily and copper burnishes itself petty well into steel. So lead with tin blends can solder a copper burnished barrel. Plus, cleaning that danged condom mess out o' thar is jest th' rite thang t' do!

prs

[HORNET]

IIRC, Venturino's testing was with some of his milsurps and he decided that it didn't seem to make much difference for the style of shooting that he was doing. There are a lot of factors involved. Would it matter with a .38 at 7 yards for IDPA competition? Probably not. How about long range rifle or serious cast boolit benchrest matches? Much more likely. Depends on what you're doing. Better to eliminate the variable to start with, then test both ways if you feel a need to.

[Pirate69]

Thanks everyone. Lots of comments based on experience. This is what I needed to read to ensure myself that i was not wasteing my time.

[mpmarty]

I soak with Butches bore shine until patches come out clean as they went in. I find that I get more serious leading if I don't start with a clean barrel.

[AZ-Stew]

Any kind of fowling is bad.

Personally, I find quail, pheasant, chicken and turkey quite tasty.

Regards,

Stew

[9.3X62AL]

I read that article in "Handloader" by Mike V, and his take on this question was the only point in the article I might not agree with. After a bit of thought, it occurred to me that a knowledgeable gun person like Mike would not allow copper fouling to accumulate in any depth inside a barrel, and if the fouling was managed via regular preventive maintenence there could very well be no negative effects in switching between the castings and the J-words.

Modern jacketed bullets don't generally lay down the depth and degree of copper fouling that Whelen and Hatcher spoke of in the early 20th Century. Some may disagree with what follows here, but I don't go to extraordinary lengths to root out every vestige of copper in a barrel. I don't believe it is possible to do, and at some point it runs the risk of becoming counter-productive. I strongly believe that a new barrel can benefit from 100-300 jacketed bullets being fired through it prior to any castings being run, provided steps are taken to manage any egregious copper fouling left prior to commencing the lead boolit shooting. I do make an effort to remove egregious fouling of either sort prior to changing bullet material, but don't carry the practice to extremes.

[S.R.Custom]

Mike Venturino in a recent article said he didn't find a difference. I'm sure he didn't shoot with heavy copper fouling, though.

When shooting jacketed bullets, I likewise don't let the fouling get too heavy. As a result, if I switch to cast bullets, I don't notice a difference either.

But what I have noticed is this-- If I have a rough bore, I get less fouling and better accuracy if I first lay down a little copper to fill the pits and/or chatter marks.

[1Shirt]

Well Felix, can't argue with you on your specifics, cause they just make since. Still say all rifles are female.
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[BruceB]

"Still say all rifles are female"- 1Shirt!

AMEN to that! So are the three mine hoists I operate at work. Last night, every single one of them demonstrated their feminine ways and gave me serious grief all night long; one of the worst shifts I've ever worked.

When I bought a sporterized Lee-Enfield No. 1 Mk III dated 1914 (original barrel), I expected a long routine of de-coppering it. Apparently a previous owner had taken care of any fouling problem, if one had existed. My Montana Extreme (ammonia-based) solution only showed a very minor case of fouling, and the blue disappeared after just a couple of treatments. I don't think it will ever see another jacketed bullet in my hands, so it's good to go with cast loads.

I do try to keep a running tally of which rifles have last been fired with cast loads, and it's painful to fire a jacketed bullet in any of the rifles which have their bores "conditioned" for cast bullets. However, in light of this discussion and Mike's article, I'm trying a few experiments with switching back-and-forth from cast to jacketed without the rigorous cleaning I've been using to date. Nothing to report so far, but it's early days.

My rifles' barrels are normally NOT cleaned at all when using cast loads, and only an occurrence of visible lead fouling will trigger a cleaning. That is very rare indeed. Working parts do get cleaned as necessary, but not the bores. Maybe I'm just lazy, but it seems to be working for me.

[lwknight]

Personally, I find quail, pheasant, chicken and turkey quite tasty.

Regards,

Ever tried Mud Hen? aka Mud duck? LOL
When I was a young guy I shot a mud hen and brought it in. My old grandmother took it and fried it up and put all of it in my plate. She never said a word. Didn't have to either. That tought me a lesson. btw: I did eat a few bites of it.

[leadman]

I've been shooting my 2 groove 1903A3 with cast in preperation for a match this Sunday at 200 yards. I have the group down to 3 to 4 inches at 200 yards with 311041 sized .311", 18 grs. SR4759.
I noticed the wind was dropping the poi down about 2 inches so I thought I would try the jacketed loads I have for this rifle. Fired 5 rounds for group, of course with a higher poi.

I was thinking of the previous threads on this so thought I would fire 5 cast again for group.

The group size was almost 6 inches and centered in the ten ring. I felt that I had fired a good group and should not have been the cause of the increase.

Grabbed my Garand with jacketed loads and put 3 in the x ring and 2 just out of the x-ring.

I think the increase with the 1903a3 was either copper or powder fouling.

I'll try it again someday to see if it comes out the same.

[TREERAT]

Ever tried Mud Hen? aka Mud duck? LOL
When I was a young guy I shot a mud hen and brought it in. My old grandmother took it and fried it up and put all of it in my plate. She never said a word. Didn't have to either. That tought me a lesson. btw: I did eat a few bites of it.

I use to eat what Dad called mud hens when I was young, I perfered them to mallards actually! when I got older and started to get interested in duck hunting, I asked about mud hens and every body I asked said they have never heard of such a thing. if I remember correct they were very small like a teal.
So my question is mud hen a generic name for a certain duck or is it its own specices? I use to sneek up over the pond bank when I was young and shoot them on the water, times were hard at the time! if they didnt fly off they would often dive and you would never see them again, I always guessed the swam into a muskrat hole or into the weeds on the bank.

[DLCTEX]

I believe they are Coots. I can also testify they taste like mud, hence the name. About the same flavor as a mudcat (bullhead, if you don't think they are that bad, try one from a West Texas farm pond).

[TREERAT]

I guess I have weired taste because I love bullheads, better than chanel or blue, but like flat heads the best. and these were not coots as I can identify them. these looked simular to a gadwall but more brown than grey and smaller size like a teal, mabye they were teal hens but there was no wing patch markings. any way I apoligize for taking this so far off topic!!!

[felix]

Mud hens are any fish eating duck, mainly Coots. ... felix

[felix]

You can't beat the taste of farm raised quail. That species, whatever they are, seem to be professionaly DNAed because they are extremely large for a BobWhite type. More like the size of the new fangled ring-necked doves around here now. They perfected the CatFish in the farm ponds which are prevelant in AR, MS, and AL Vertisol Clay (gumbo mud) areas of the said states, and I assume they are doing the same (over time) to other eating game. ... felix

[qajaq59]

Bullheads from a fast moving, ice cold stream are great. But from a warm farm pond? Ugh...

[Captain Capsize]

I have been using a 50/50 mix of hydrogen peroxide and vinegar to clean my leaded s/s pistol barrels (a five minute soak and a dry patch does it). Does anyone know if there is a reason not to use this in a blued rifle barrel that shoots lead and cj bullets? Thanks.

[jonk]

Depends what I'm doing.

If I'm shooting a load right at max before the lead starts to strip, say at or just over 2000 fps with wheelweights, then I find a thorough de-coppering is a must.

For plinker loads with gas check at 1400 or so, I don't see a lot of need to de-copper unless it is really really built up.

If I need to de-copper, just fill the bore with foaming solvent and let sit overnight. A thick blue sludge comes out and the barrel is usually squeaky clean. If not, repeat once more.

[S.R.Custom]

I have been using a 50/50 mix of hydrogen peroxide and vinegar to clean my leaded s/s pistol barrels (a five minute soak and a dry patch does it). Does anyone know if there is a reason not to use this in a blued rifle barrel that shoots lead and cj bullets? Thanks.

You mean, aside from the rust it causes? (Vinegar and hydrogen peroxide are both acids, and the H2O2 is an oxidizer as well.)