45-70

[emorris]

I have a handi rifle in 45-70 and looking to get some pointers for reloading. While preparing to start load development (studying manuels) i disovered 3 different load datas according to lyman #49. one is for the 1873 springfield, 1886winchester/1895marlin, and ruger #1/#3 rifles (hotter). The Handi rifle is new and my first thought would be that the later (hotter) would work. I am worried that at the low pressure that it operates that the case would not show signs of excessive pressure and the gun will fail. I like shooting the rifle and from my research the 45-70 is a round the can be improved (velocity) by reloading. All of the factory ammo I have seen seems to be loaded for the weaker style rifles. I have heard of the higher preformance ammo,but not seen it and would rether reload. My mold is a lee 457-340-f that a friend gave me for a fee (some cast booliets). This casts bullets simmilar to the lyman 457122 330 gn without the hollow point. The difference in velocity between the hotter for the ruger (2255fps)and springfield (1711fps) is 544fps, and for the win/marlin (2096 fps). I have ran a search on this site but was unsucessful, althought i bet that this subject has been brought up before. I hope to use this rifle for next deer season for brush hunting so terminal preformance is a concern. I also think that a mixture of clip on and stick on ww alloyed to a soft hardness would give me goos expansion with out too much leading, may have to hollow point. I have also attempted to contact the manfacture twice got two different answers and when i said the words "casting" and "reloading") i got a lot a bunch of legal advise. I have done web searches but also got mixed info as well as unreliable info. I am not looking for a hand out for load data, but would appricate any input. I plan to start in the middle and see what happens.:Fire:

[doghawg]

emorris

I just started casting that same Lee 340 but my intentions were to use it as a 1200 to 1300 fps plinking bullet in my Ruger #1. The bullets were left unsized at just shy of .459"(Lee's .457 push through squeezed 'em down to .456) and lubed with LLA.

13.2 gr. of Unique for 1180 fps...accuracy pretty good...about 1 1/2" at 50 yards
28.5 gr. of XMP5744 for 1330 fps......lots of unburned powder and lousy accuracy.
30.5 gr. of XMP5744 for 1410 fps...... ditto to above.
32 gr. of H4198 for 1200 fps and nice little 3/4" clusters at 50 yards

So.....There is my pleasant to shoot plinking load...I'm going to add another grain or two of H4198 and kick it up to 1250 or 1300. These were straight WW's plus a little tin and gave no leading. I have no idea on how much they would expand on deer but if accuracy would hold up at....maybe 1500 or so...I might give it a try. I've kicked 350 gr. bullets (jacketed Hornady) out of this gun at as high as 2100 fps but IMO the 45/70 stops being fun at that level.

Have been looking at the Lyman 457643 with that nice big flat meplat for hunting.

FWIW

[runfiverun]

the 45-70 has done just fine for a hundred or so years at 1300 fps.
you can definately work up from there. but i bet the recoil will be your guide.
a 330 at 1300 is in 454 casull range. just for some reference.

[BoolitBill]

I love my 45-70 rifles but have only hunted with them twice. I like to load the lighter loads (405 gr. at about 1300fps). Recoil level at the hotter loads gets old fast and most of your hunting will be 150 yds or less. You will be able to kill just about anything you want with the lighter loads yet you will be able to practice a lot more and save your shoulder a lot of pain by using the lighter loads. Some guys love recoil, but the older I get the less I like it. Do yourself a favor and get good at shooting the lighter loads, you will be able to place your boolits right where you want them, and whatever you shoot will be just as dead.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

Hi and welcome to the forum. You are doing well to read and consult; gathering good information is a good way to solve problems. Lets start with the actions and their limitations. The trapdoor Springffield is the weakest of the lot. Ammo loaded for it was and is in the 1200-1300fps range.Pushing a trapdoor is not a good idea. Next is the 86 Winchester/95 Marlin-they will handle somewhat hotter ammo as their actions are considerably much stronger. I have an 86 that is good shape and have fired it with some pretty healthy loadings...up to 1600fps with 400 and 500 grain cast bulllets. The recoil was murder, moreso with the 500 grainers. Terminal performance would be well beyond the deer or even elk size animal, and any loading approaching 1700fps, or + would be sufficient for anything in the western hemisphere...like in Tyrannus Rex. The Ruger #1s a very strong action and it can handle high performance loadings....for really dangerous game....if you can put up with the punishment. I am not familiar with the handi-rifle so cannot speak for it. However the use of 330-340 grain bullets is relatively safe(r) in the 45-70 as long as you use the proper loadings of medium to slower powders which generate lower pressures. I don't believe that going over 1500fps for hunting deer, moose or elk is really necessary. A lead bullet of 330-340 traveling at that velocity will terminate most animals of that size very effectively. As to the alloy....ordinary wheelweights have a BHN hardness of around 9 and will do quite well at speeds under 1500-1600fps without leading, especially with a medium powder such as 3031 or slower. You can dilute the WW with some pure lead to make the bullet softer for expansion if you drop the velocity a bit, or add some tin (2%) if you want a harder bullet. I would not worry about leading as that is not likely to occur if you are using a medium burning powder or slower and (using a good lube) staying within the velocities mentioned above. You should be able to get sufficient expansion with WW especially if you soften it a bit, but be aware that 45-70's have a tendancy to penetrate more than they expand and more often than not...shoot clean through. What I have outlined so far may be considered by some as relatively conservative advice or approach, but I assure you that it will keep you out of trouble, and it is a good starting point and you will get the job done next hunting season with a minimum of confusion. I hope that this will be of some help to you. LLS

[mpmarty]

the loads you see for the 1886 Winny and '95 Marlin are held to SAAMI maximum pressures of about 28,000 cup or Copper Units of Pressure not to be confused with pounds per square inch. The #1 and #3 Rugers are stated to be safe at 50,000 cup or nearly twice as much pressure. I shoot a Marlin '95 and believe me when I say the 28,000 loads are all I want to shoot on a regular basis, especially from a bench or prone. I use the Ranch Dog 350 and 425gr boolits as cast and LLA lubed w/Hornady checks. The checks are crimped in my Lyman 45 by very shallow "sizing" deep enough to secure the checks. If I had a single shot light weight rifle such as yours I'd be reluctant to push beyond the 1886/1895 load levels out of sheer cowardice.

[Lead Fred]

I got lucky and bought this Lyman 457483(AH) modified 385gr RN mold from a BP shooter. He had the gas check portion of the mold removed making it a plain base.
(now 395gr)

I figured on shooting these at 1400-1450, so I wasnt worried about the gas check.
Using 40gr of R-7, I found that at 1650fps these guys shoot so nice, and close together with my Handi open sights, Im done with this load. I get wheel weights for free, so I have the perfect shooter. They even work good with holy black (1150fps)

[nicholst55]

The NEF Handi Rifle is approved for 1886 Winchester/1895 Marlin load data; I verified that with NEF myself. As stated above, recoil is going to be your limiting factor. I filled the stock bolt hole in my Buffalo Classic .45-70 with #8 shot, and it's still too bloody light for anything even resembling a heavy load!

I'm going to try a slip-on recoil pad with mine - that, or a different stock that sports a recoil pad. I may end up installing a mercury recoil reducer in the stock. I primarily shoot (real) black powder in mine though, and the recoil is manageable with 405 grain loads.

[EMC45]

I shoot a PB Lee 405gr. over 14.5gr Unique. Dead is dead. Killed 2 deer with that load and it kicks like a 20ga light bird load.

[44man]

My Browning BPCR is very heavy and even with BP only, I need a shoulder pad for extended shooting.
Don't get carried away, the 45-70 can be a mean machine at both ends. Most Marlin level loads will rock your boat.

[montana_charlie]

I recommend that you start with the low powered loads and work up until you get accurate ammunition. With any luck, that will occur before you reach the loads that weld your shoulder blades together.
CM

[milkman]

emorris

I also shoot the Handi in 45/70 and have the Lee 340g mold. That mold is a plain base and will almost certainly give you problems if you try to hot rod it. I shoot the Lee 500g gas check boolit in mine because it gives fantastic accuracy in my rifle. With a gas check I shoot pure lead at about 1200 fps and that is good to go from one end of a deer to the other and leave a big hole where it comes out. The 45/70 is a wonderful round but if you want to see a vapor trail behind your boolit you probably should pick a different cartridge.

I tried the 500g at Ruger #1 levels ONCE. Weren't no fun atoll.

Milkman

[George Tucker]

In my Ruger #1, i shoot the old Gould 330gr HP, #457122, it has all the killing power i have ever needed, i use modest loads, and i have a lot of confidence in the Rifle, one of my favorites, George.

[Sprue]

My pet load is 16 grains of Unique. Here's why:


Conserves Powder
Conserves lead
Can be shot all day long w/o a pounding
Very accurate @ 100 yrds
Very lethal
lots a fun


Whats not to like & what can't be taken with nearly 1150 ft lbs of m/e in a lil ole 1895GG ?


Lee 457-340-F (right )
http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh266/spilihp_2007/4570HPandRFNBullets.jpg

[DLCTEX]

I shoot both the 350 and 420 gr. Ranch Dog boolits in a Marlin guide gun. The 350 ahead of SR 4759 is a pleasant load to shoot and will kill anything I am likely to shoot. I shoot as cast and tumble lube with 50/50, alox/JPW, thinned with a little mineral spirits. I am going to get a Lee FCD to crimp the checks on with, if they have one in 45-70, haven't checked that. Currently I just run them in the RCBS lubrasizer enough to crimp them on. If you want to shoot elephants or hippos, load the 420's to about 1850 fps with a slower powder.

[BrianB]

I will back up what a lot of guys are saying here..hot loads in a Handi hurt! I found the 340 Lee to work well with 40-41 grains of Reloder-7 in a Handi and am working on some lighter 1,300 fps loads as well. Any more and the recoil just gets silly. In other guns, like my Browning 1885, I can shoot a 300 grain Hornady over 50.2 grains Reloder-7 with no problem, but not in a Handi. (BTW, I'm not a whiner about recoil, I have shot several belted magnums that do not kick like a hot 45-70 load in a Handi)

The 40 to 41 grain Reloder-7 load with the 340 Lee bullet will drop anything I will ever hunt. Also, I shoot the 340's unsized and heavily tumble lubed with no noticeable leading.

[mpmarty]

Velocity is not what "drives" the popularity of the 45/70. The last deer I shot was at a bit less than 100 yards, broadside to me on a knoll a bit above me. The boolit was a 350gr ranch dog as cast w/LLA/JPW mix. The boolit entered low on the left side just behind the front leg. It exited high on the right side after demolishing the lungs and heart. The deer was literally flung off its feet by the impact and I know that round was going less than 1500fps.

[EMC45]

As a side note I did load a bunch up with a stiff load of Varget. It is BRUTAL!!!!

[tgd31968]

The NEF Handi Rifle is approved for 1886 Winchester/1895 Marlin load data; I verified that with NEF myself. As stated above, recoil is going to be your limiting factor. I filled the stock bolt hole in my Buffalo Classic .45-70 with #8 shot, and it's still too bloody light for anything even resembling a heavy load!

I'm going to try a slip-on recoil pad with mine - that, or a different stock that sports a recoil pad. I may end up installing a mercury recoil reducer in the stock. I primarily shoot (real) black powder in mine though, and the recoil is manageable with 405 grain loads.

So what is your bp load? I am shooting the Lee 405 grain hb over 55 grains of 3F goex with about 10 grains of cream of wheat as a filler. It is all over the place off the bench at 50 yards. By contrast a load with 3031 grouped into an inch.
My bullets are not hard, so I am not sure how much of a difference that makes, especially with that load, but I don't know what else to mess with.

[HangFireW8]

The trapdoor Springffield is the weakest of the lot. Ammo loaded for it was and is in the 1200-1300fps range.Pushing a trapdoor is not a good idea.

This has been covered in the single shot part of the forum and elsewhere. The trapdoor is a pretty strong action design, made with old steels, with a very weak ejector. Once you get to sticky cases, the case is stuck and/or you've got a broken ejector.

Due to the quality and temper of their steel, more trapdoors have been ringed by the combination of fast powders and plastic fillers than have been blown by stiff loads of medium burning powders. Once ringed they become hard to eject and the cases have a slight bulge along the body.

If you stick to medium powders or BP, and don't overload to the point of sticky cases, the trapdoor can actually handle some pretty stiff loads. Yeah, thats a lot of caveats, but there you are.

The reason I get into this, some people recommend light loads, then someone else works up a load of Red Dot and Dacron until the receiver gets ringed, all because they were following the standard advice. Fast powders have high initial peak pressures, very unlike BP.

-HF

[Lead Fred]

and remember the optimum meat penetration speed is 1450.

[nicholst55]

So what is your bp load? I am shooting the Lee 405 grain hb over 55 grains of 3F goex with about 10 grains of cream of wheat as a filler. It is all over the place off the bench at 50 yards. By contrast a load with 3031 grouped into an inch.
My bullets are not hard, so I am not sure how much of a difference that makes, especially with that load, but I don't know what else to mess with.

I'm shooting a 20:1 405 grain RN boolit lubed with SPG lube, over 65 grains of Goex 2F with a .060" thick card wad. I can't remember how much compression I'm using - I'm 8,000 miles away from my guns and gear right now.

I'd suggest buying this book by Mike Venturino: http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=4&subId=24&styleId=72&partNum=BOOK-SPG It contains a lot of useful info on loading BPCR.

Here's a reasonably good Youtube video on how to load BPCR ammo. I disagree with his bullet seating procedure, but I guess it works for him: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOyvtS3pOzg

[WHITETAIL]

emorris, Welcome to the forum!:drinks:
And welcome to the 45-70.
Their are many ways to load
the 45-70.
The way I found is IMR 4198
and a card wad.
Get your self a milk carton.
Then drill out a primer pocket
of your of your shells.
Chamfer the mouth of the case
on the inside.
Cut the wax cardbord from the milk
container.
And use the case as a punch and
make some wads.
use a nail to push out the wads you made
from inside the case/punch.
After putting your load in a case,
put the card wad just inside the shell
Then load your plane base boolet and crimp.:redneck:

[chaos]

I went through the same thing several years back. I had purchased a Wesson ANd HArrington Buffalo Classic. Which is a glorified Handi Rifle. I could find ZERO concrete information about which load level strength this thing could safely operate at. I found some folks saying that they could only handle trapdoor level loads and others saying they would hold anything you put in them. Nothing in writing and H@R/nef had no comment except factory loads were OK.

I settled on the Weak Trapdoor level loads for this rifle. Easier on the rifle as well as the shoulder.

Those 'Weak" loads have killed every deer and hog that I have shot with them.