Silver boolits

[ironcowboy]

Well, having been a fan of the lone ranger all those years (hmm, not that long actually, haha) i decided i'd try to cast up a few silver boolits (might have had something to do with watching The Wolfman, on friday too).

So i took some Pre '64 quarters, dimes and a half dollar or two (about enough to cast 6 boolits) and tried to melt them in a pot over a propane burner, no luck... So i put them in a little iron pot i had, and put them in the wood stove, got a super hot fire going, and succeeded in getting the pot to glow red, but still no melt... I guess the temp needs to be about 1650*F... Any other ideas???

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Save your silver, you may need it the way the economy is headed....[smilie=1:

[docone31]

Hehehe.
Yup.
They will melt over a piece of wood, with a depression cut into it.
Hold the torch upside down if it is propane, heat on the wood. Use Borax as flux.
I imagine, you can imagine casting is another matter. You will need to make a mold of the item to be cast, make a wax, invest, and pour. Use vaccum when pouring. With an object that large, you won't need to keep the heat that high, so a conventional oven can be used for burn out and mold prep.
You can turn the casting from canning wax. Chuck it into an handpiece, and turn it. Although the pieces will be close in diameter, they won't be identical. Well, that won't matter anyway as you will not be firing them. They will be too hard to engrave the rifleing.
Definately makes a good conversation piece.
You will need to heat the metal to 1600*. Sterling melts at 1450*. Not that it matters.
What is 200* among casters?

[ironcowboy]

Hehehe.
Yup.
They will melt over a piece of wood, with a depression cut into it.
Hold the torch upside down if it is propane, heat on the wood. Use Borax as flux.
I imagine, you can imagine casting is another matter. You will need to make a mold of the item to be cast, make a wax, invest, and pour. Use vaccum when pouring. With an object that large, you won't need to keep the heat that high, so a conventional oven can be used for burn out and mold prep.
You can turn the casting from canning wax. Chuck it into an handpiece, and turn it. Although the pieces will be close in diameter, they won't be identical. Well, that won't matter anyway as you will not be firing them. They will be too hard to engrave the rifleing.
Definately makes a good conversation piece.
You will need to heat the metal to 1600*. Sterling melts at 1450*. Not that it matters.
What is 200* among casters?

Holy mohly! Sounds like much more work then i thought. I figured it would be something like casting a lead bullet, only with more heat...
BTW, this will be for a .45 colt, 255grn bullet.
I also assume that silver is silver, and i'm not planning on shooting the boolits, (well, not unless that treacherous wolf man comes around, haha) So if i ever need them for the value they are, i guess i can just pull them. :)
Now i dont know if i should try to go through with this...

-Samuel

[405]

I think since docone31 is a jeweler his advice is good on this. One thing would worry me about casting silver is the high temperature required. Could be a problem with a regular bullet mold.... either warp the mold or solder the silver to it :(

a lost wax or conventional casting as has been suggested could work to get to a basic bullet shape then it could be turned down to nice smooth "bullet".

[docone31]

For something like this, Lost Wax is the easiest. Well, if you call casting silver easy.
It can be done and done as an one time deal.
http://users.frii.com/dnorris/onlineclasses.html
Here is how to do it on a budget. Since you are not talking filligree here, steam casting should work.
Iffen you do not do it, you will have learned something new.
Pour molten silver in a conventional mold, and you will have a ruined mold! You will have to bring the mold up to 600* to make the cast.
If you do get the chance, go for it! You will not lose the silver, if it fails, down the road you can make it into a ball.
Good reading.

[captain-03]

At one time I, too, thought I would give this a try ... check this out ... should tell you what you need to know ..

http://www.patriciabriggs.com/books/silver/silverbullet5.shtml

[wistlepig1]

I know not one thing about cast silver but could you cast it into a rod and have someone turn a bullit or two on a metal lathe?:idea:

[deltaenterprizes]

If you do a search on "Making a bullet mold" on google there is a guy that made a cherry and cut a mold using graphite to cast silver bullets for jewlery.

[ironcowboy]

I know not one thing about cast silver but could you cast it into a rod and have someone turn a bullit or two on a metal lathe?:idea:

This sounds like the only way i could get it done, but i dont know anyone with a lathe, so in the end, it looks like i better get ready to run if the lycan comes. haha

[Frank46]

And don't forget the zombies. Those little m38 and M44 russian carbines with the bayo attached will hold em whilst you fry them with the muzzle flash and the bullet is the coup de gras. I never realized just how big a muzzle flash was generated by one of these little rifles.and occasionally I see some flash. Told my buddy here take a wack at these. Stood off to one side and holy cow. You could flash fry a big mac. Fun too, Frank

[Muddy Creek Sam]

Cast 6 Out of Tin, Put them in you Belt.

Sam :D

[leftiye]

Use pewter, cast 'em, and polish them, coat with lacquer maybe.

Back to silver - Since you won't need boolit lube, a straight sided boolit mold would be easy to bore with a formed drill. Maybe use graphite as mentioned for the mold material. Steel or iron would be red hot if the mold had to be anywhere near 1600 degrees F (steel is bright orange at 1300 F, so is the rest of the furnace). Graphite shouldn't conduct heat very well, so the mold shouldn't have to be very hot.

[cheese1566]

Ask your local jeweler if you can cast them out of something a little easier and them have him silver plate them.

I over polished my badge once and took the thin gold plate right off to bare metal. Darn Dremel tool!!! But it was pretty shiny. The local jeweler/repair guy gold plated it back to better than original condition for $5.

He may be able to do the cases gold, the bullets silver.

HMMMM, makes me think about making trinkets to sell up in Deadwood this summer!

[outdoorfan]

Save your silver, you may need it the way the economy is headed....[smilie=1:

Yep!!

[Shiloh]

I know not one thing about cast silver but could you cast it into a rod and have someone turn a bullit or two on a metal lathe?:idea:

This would be a good way to go. If you try it with a real boolit mold be prepaired to ruin it.


Use pewter, cast 'em, and polish them, coat with lacquer maybe.
Back to silver - Since you won't need boolit lube, a straight sided boolit mold would be easy to bore with a formed drill. Maybe use graphite as mentioned for the mold material. Steel or iron would be red hot if the mold had to be anywhere near 1600 degrees F (steel is bright orange at 1300 F, so is the rest of the furnace). Graphite shouldn't conduct heat very well, so the mold shouldn't have to be very hot.

Get a charcoal block from http://www.riogrande.com/MemberArea/SearchPage.aspx?page=GRID&free_text|1266506764157=charcoal%20block

Take a piece of scrap wire and wrap around the circumference first. tighten by twisting until it digs into the charcoal a little. When you pour, it will crack in half. the wire keeps it in one piece. You could order Sterling or fine silver casting grain from Rio as well. Bought $$$ from them when I was a full time custom jeweler and trade shop.

An even better Idea. You could order pewter from http://www.rotometals.com/Pewter-Alloys-s/23.htm at the top of the page and do it your self.


Ask your local jeweler if you can cast them out of something a little easier and them have him silver plate them.

I over polished my badge once and took the thin gold plate right off to bare metal. Darn Dremel tool!!! But it was pretty shiny. The local jeweler/repair guy gold plated it back to better than original condition for $5.

He may be able to do the cases gold, the bullets silver.

HMMMM, makes me think about making trinkets to sell up in Deadwood this summer!


Best yet. He/she will have casting equipment. They won't do this for free either unless you know them.

When I did it for customers, I would make a bullet with a flex shaft from wax. Then I would cast in silver using Lost wax process. Did one in 18K yellow gold once also. Made coke spoons for select customers with .357 or 45-70 cases and boolits. Quietly I might add. I really didn't want dopers in my shop.

Shiloh

[gray wolf]

If you must have them--
Find a dental lab in your area, bring them a lead bullet and they will make a mold from it.
Then they will fill it with wax, attach a wax sprue to the wax bullet and invest it in a casting ring filled with casting investment. It will be set aside for about 2 hours until the investment will be dry and then put in an oven to about 1300* the wax will melt out and leave
an empty cavity. Then it will go into a centrifugal casting machine and the silver will be melted with a torch, and fluxed with charcoal or borax. when the metal is molten it will be spun into the mold. Silver =1,763*F.

[deltaenterprizes]

The shrinkage will be amazing, a friend made a mold from a 38 cal bullet and after it was cast it was about 32 cal.

[docone31]

You can make a mold from RTV silicone. It comes in a tube, and it is blue.
You will have to add a sprue.
Make a frame, large enough to contain the casting, plus 3/8" on either side. Ideally you will have a frame that is 1 1/2 on one side, and 1 3/8" on the other. Once the frame is filled, you can either push the casting into the RTV, or pour the RTV around the casting.
Once cured, you will have to cut the mold open. I like to use a wobbly cut on the RTV, or in my case, I use silicone rubber and a vulcanizer. You will have to cut mold locks into the corners. Use a sharp X-acto blade to cut the mold. Dip the blade into water to make it slip.
From there, you can pour the wax into the mold. It will be large enough that you will not need to inject it. Since there is minimal detail, it should go right in. There will be shrinkage so make enough of an head to keep pressure on the wax during its cure. Once the wax is cold, seperate the mold halves. You should have your casting plus a sprue. The sprue you will attach to a larger sprue.
You will have rejects, both in the waxing, and casting. I would wax up 10 so you have prime waxes to start. You will need to sprue 8.
Use the steam method I have put the link to for the casting. It is a very effective method.
Good luck.
You can also use denturite for mold material to make the wax. RTV is much less expensive and has a longer cure time.
Good luck.

[BoolitBill]

Years ago there was an article in one of the gun magazines where the author and his buddies made some silver bullets. All I can remember was that it was a lot of work and then the bullets did not shoot accurately at all. All in all the article concluded that unless you had a real Werewolf to deal with stick with lead.

[Shiloh]

The shrinkage will be amazing, a friend made a mold from a 38 cal bullet and after it was cast it was about 32 cal.

Srinkage from the wax molding, then casting and finishing is significant
You are looking at 5%-7% easily. Poor technique and that may become 10%
I've been doing this for almost 35 years.


You can make a mold from RTV silicone. It comes in a tube, and it is blue.
You will have to add a sprue.
Make a frame, large enough to contain the casting, plus 3/8" on either side. Ideally you will have a frame that is 1 1/2 on one side, and 1 3/8" on the other. Once the frame is filled, you can either push the casting into the RTV, or pour the RTV around the casting.
Once cured, you will have to cut the mold open. I like to use a wobbly cut on the RTV, or in my case, I use silicone rubber and a vulcanizer. You will have to cut mold locks into the corners. Use a sharp X-acto blade to cut the mold. Dip the blade into water to make it slip.
From there, you can pour the wax into the mold. It will be large enough that you will not need to inject it. Since there is minimal detail, it should go right in. There will be shrinkage so make enough of an head to keep pressure on the wax during its cure. Once the wax is cold, seperate the mold halves. You should have your casting plus a sprue. The sprue you will attach to a larger sprue.
You will have rejects, both in the waxing, and casting. I would wax up 10 so you have prime waxes to start. You will need to sprue 8.
Use the steam method I have put the link to for the casting. It is a very effective method.
Good luck.
You can also use denturite for mold material to make the wax. RTV is much less expensive and has a longer cure time.
Good luck.

RTV is the most forgiving when it comes to shrinkage. The molds aren't the quality of vulcanized rubber molds, but have become a LOT better in the last 15 years or so.


Years ago there was an article in one of the gun magazines where the author and his buddies made some silver bullets. All I can remember was that it was a lot of work and then the bullets did not shoot accurately at all. All in all the article concluded that unless you had a real Werewolf to deal with stick with lead.

Someone is actually planning on shooting these??? More can go wrong than right. Silver is a LOT harder than lead, and a couple of thousands over bore size that works perfectly with lead, may certainly be enough to KaBoom a firearm. This could cause serious injury and possible death the the shooter and bystanders.

Come on guys!! Novelty is one thing, actual firing is completely different!!

Shiloh

[docone31]

Shiloh, I wouldn't worry too much about his doing it.
You and I both know how much work it is just to get one.
IF, if it is to be fired, then there is sizeing issues!. The silver will not engrave worth anything so accuracy will be non existant, and expansion will be another issue.
I love these threads. I remember, waaay back when,
HI HO SILVER! Those silver bullets!
Well, I have been a jeweler for almost as long as you have, and I know, it took me almost half that time to get a good casting from Filligree! It just ain't that easy.
We know.
But, there is plenty of room here. I hate casting.

[jdgabbard]

I really just don't see the reasoning. Why not just get a jeweler to cast you some up, Load them over NO powder, and a spent primer. Novelty achieved...

[deltaenterprizes]

This thread shows the power the idiots that write TV scripts have to "brainwash", or in today's terms "program" the public with disinformation and outright lies and get the majority of the public to believe that it is possible because "I saw it on TV"!
CSI is the newest version of science fiction out there.

[HORNET]

Naw, it can't be that hard. I saw it done in Steven King's movie "Silver Bullet" and they did it in a Lee mold........:kidding:

[Shiloh]

I really just don't see the reasoning. Why not just get a jeweler to cast you some up, Load them over NO powder, and a spent primer. Novelty achieved...

That would be my recommendation.

[gray wolf]

The shrinkage will be amazing, a friend made a mold from a 38 cal bullet and after it was cast it was about 32 cal.



There will be shrinkage so make enough of an head to keep pressure on the wax during its cure. Once the wax is cold, seperate the mold halves. You should have your casting plus a sprue. The sprue you will attach to a larger sprue.

The ignorance and the ability to not understand what you read on this board takes me to new levels.
If you read what I wrote .-- I said a dental Lab.If you think a Dental lab. can't do a lost wax casting without having shrinkage, then you don't know as much as you think you do. I don't care how many years you been doing it. Ever get a cap or a crown made for your mouth, not false teeth, if you please.
Well how do you think the metal copings are made that have the tooth material on top of them are made. We have cast Silver, Gold, Brass, and Nickle alloys--No what? They don't shrink, know why? because the coefficient of expansion and contraction are all matched to the materials being used.
You just can't use any wax, you just can't use any old mold material, nor any old investment cement. It has to be correct, So does the temperature that is used to eliminate the wax from the mold. I could go into all the details but why bother on this one. I am sure all you experts know better than a person who fabricated castings using the lost wax method for years.
It;s a little different than casting for Jewelery, not to much but a little.
That's why I said go to a dental lab, they know what they are doing.
You may get it close--they will get it right.

[ironcowboy]

The ignorance and the ability to not understand what you read on this board takes me to new levels.
If you read what I wrote .-- I said a dental Lab.If you think a Dental lab. can't do a lost wax casting without having shrinkage, then you don't know as much as you think you do. I don't care how many years you been doing it. Ever get a cap or a crown made for your mouth, not false teeth, if you please.
Well how do you think the metal copings are made that have the tooth material on top of them are made. We have cast Silver, Gold, Brass, and Nickle alloys--No what? They don't shrink, know why? because the coefficient of expansion and contraction are all matched to the materials being used.
You just can't use any wax, you just can't use any old mold material, nor any old investment cement. It has to be correct, So does the temperature that is used to eliminate the wax from the mold. I could go into all the details but why bother on this one. I am sure all you experts know better than a person who fabricated castings using the lost wax method for years.
It;s a little different than casting for Jewelery, not to much but a little.
That's why I said go to a dental lab, they know what they are doing.
You may get it close--they will get it right.


Thanks for the info!!

Any clue what they'd charge me on this one? This was purely just for the heck of it, and i'm not looking to spend much money...

[gray wolf]

Don't know, Perhaps nothing . They may think it's a fun thing to do and do it for you if you just pay 2 or 3 bucks a bullet for there material,
Look for a lab with two or three people working in it. Stay away from the 50 man production shops. They will charge what they get for a casting of any kind. Could go 20 to 30 $$ a casting. Way out of line,

[GLL]

If you just want one for novelty why not turn it on a lathe ?

Forget about casting, moulds, high temp required, shrinkage, etc !

Jerry

[HeavyMetal]

Gun World, back in the 70's, did a complete story on both casting silver bullets, al the Lone Ranger, and shooting them!

It was such a nightmare that I don't know why the editor just didn't call a halt to it before it was finished.

I don't know where you could find a copy of this but a call to Gun World might get you a back issue. I can't imagine that anyone would forget the hassle that article created!

[Cactus Farmer]

Years ago there was an article in one of the gun magazines where the author and his buddies made some silver bullets. All I can remember was that it was a lot of work and then the bullets did not shoot accurately at all. All in all the article concluded that unless you had a real Werewolf to deal with stick with lead.

Guns and Ammo back about 1964? They burned up a mold ,had to buy a lady jeweler dinner and they didn't come close to shooting well. They had some great pictures of the crew,Lone Ranger,Tonto and Dan Cottermen as Superman. The cost for these grossly undersized boolits was $4.00 each in 1964 dollars. They spent some time retreiving the high cost fired projectiles. They loaded them with HolyBlack and shot them in a nickle Colt SA, the picture of the shiney Colt after firing and a mantion of the "fun" cleanup were included also. The conclusion was that the bullets might have been made but not by Tonto over a camp fire.

Old silver ores were often found in the company of silver and some silver content would not have been uncommon if the lead was cowboy smelted on an open fire.
Some of the higher strength soft solders have silver in them now.

[JIMinPHX]

There are guys in the jewelry industry that are in the business of casting silver from wax models that designers bring them. This is usually done for making custom silver rings & such. You could cast a few wax boolits in a standard mold, then bring the wax boolits to a jewelry caster to make into silver for you. They use the lost wax process. They are set up for it.

Personally, I would not want to put anything as hard as silver down my barrels. But that's just me. If I did want to fire a silver boolit, just to say that I had done it, I would get a plastic sabot & load the silver boolit in that.

Then again, silver/lead compounds exist in nature. Much of the silver that is produced is done so as a by-product of lead mining. You can certainly blend a little silver into your lead alloy. At what percentage of silver does it become a "silver boolit"?

[Blacksmith]

Pure silver has a Brinell hardness of 21.5 or about the same as linotype. Anealed Sterling silver 92.5% Ag-7.5%Cu has a Brinell of about 30. Guilding metal 90% Cu-10% Zn used for jackets of "J word" bullets has a Brinell of 40. Brass 70%Cu- 30% Zn has a brinell of 50.

So just why are Silver bullets too hard to shoot?

Blacksmith

[Fixxah]

There was a show on last week where they cast silver boolits and shot them against jacketed ammo and the accuracy really suffered. The silver didn't take well to the rifling. This was in a controlled environment at relatively short range. The silver boolit groups were anything but.

[Thumbcocker]

I have read of people using furnce cement to make moulds with lead boolits as the master. The mould was cured on a piece of glass and then popped off when dry. The boolit was melted out with a torch and then the silver melted and poured in. The mould was then chipped off. No idea if it worked or not just read it somewhere.

[swexley]

New guy here but I've been casting Minie' balls , round balls, and 405 grainers for my .45-70 for longer than I care to remember.

Well, on second thought I do remember what got me interested.

I read an article in Gun World magazine by Jack Lewis titled " Lone Ranger Go Away".

Even though the article is from 1964 it still endangers my monitor with whatever beverage I happen to be drinking at the time.

If you feel like a good laugh, read it.
The article is here.

http://www.patriciabriggs.com/books/silver/ranger/

Linked from here.

http://www.patriciabriggs.com/books/silver/ranger/

My favorite quote from the article:
"You can bet your last loading die that Tonto didn't melt this stuff over no campfire!"

[steg]

There is a silver paste that you can purchase from a jewelery cataolg It's made from old photography film, it's real silver and it comes in different melting points, you can make a mold and just fill it with the paste, I told my smithy about it and he uses it to put sights and so forth on barrels, heres the link but I don't think that they have it on their webpage, you'll have to call them;

http://www.firemountaingems.com ...................steg

[lwknight]

Here it is. I brought it back up for a revival

[geargnasher]

Thanks! This was the one I was referring to.

Gear

[ghh3rd]

Wish my father was still alive. He was a master craftsman when it came to making dental appliances, such as bridges etc. I used to watch him carve wax, and turn it into metal with a centrifugal casting machine. He probably would have cast one from silver, or even gold for me if I were casting boolits back then.

[Ohio Rusty]

You really have to smelt silver in a crucible to get it to become liquid. Coins just don't melt. Maybe you can try Silver solder ??? SIlver has some content of silver in the solder (not sure how much) and it melts at flame temps.
Ohio Rusty ><>

[trk]

As an alternative, you can cast lead-free solder. What I get is the 96.5% tin 3.0% SILVER and 0.5% copper.

It casts best in a stone-cold mould; and stays shiney for years.

Hardness: 42-43 on Rockwell B scale. (same as copper jacketed bullet).